beefy23:

@ Nija4Life

learning local languages is all fine and dandy if you're only thinking of trading locally. The moment you want to interact with the rest of the world though - you face a self imposed limitation.

The OP was hinting at the fact there seems to be a general level of apathy towards State level education as a whole as witnessed by the falling standards amongst those who are supposed to be vanguards of the sector. This is definitely not entirely their fault.

I would go as far as to say that if a teacher within Nigeria can't be bothered to master English as a medium of education who is to say that he/she (props to equal opprotunities) will even be bothered to ensure that whatever concepts (scientific, artistis, economic etc) are actually understand by the hungry minds under their sphere of influence.

If you read my previous posts you will find where I put forward a case for learning English and local languages to help facilitate both internal and international trade. No one is in anyway undermining the significance of the English language, what my point is and will always be is not to promote the English language to the detriment of our local languages. Iceland has one of the best educational system in the world and their children are not even taught in English! Japan with all their technological advancements did not achieve them by learning how to speak English. Our colonial past seem to have a strong influence on us, so I'm not surprised.

@ Nija4Life

Both countries that you referred to do differ from our own in one essential area - they have leaders that at the very least have the welfare of their citizens at the forefront of their thoughts.

Whether we teach in English or WaZoBia - the fact that the schools are in such a state of decay in a country that has oil wealth is a great indictment.

Colonialism apart, when a country such as ours is faced with such ineptitude of leadership, it's a big disadvantage to the citizens if they're unable to get themselves educated to a standard where they can compete both locally and internationally.

Nija4Life:


Our colonial past seem to have a strong influence on us, so I'm not surprised.

Can you honestly say though that the 'Colonial' schools e.g. CMS, Methodist et al were in such a decrepit state as seen in the pictures already posted?

Yes, Colonialism had its evils but then isn't it an even greater evil when after so many years of independence, the giant of Africa sees it fit to educate its children sitting on the floor in squalid buildings.

manny4life:

Some talked about how China use their language to teach kids, although this is somewhat true, the true question is how far those who were taught in Chinese accent gone far as those who learnt English as well? You see Asian international student in schools who communicate quite fluently as compared to their African counterparts who barely can put two word together, please no offense. If they did not learn it, they won't speak it. Then again let's not confuse language with intelligence, regardless of language one who is intelligent is and is not because of whether you are taught in English, Chinese or otherwise.

The world is is a fast changing environment and English is becoming or perhaps frequently used often and sorry if one cannot communicate fluently without the fear of being intimidated. English is not that hard to learn, so why not teach it?

This is really saddening, are those little kids sitting on the floor in a school? Several students sharing one table? That sure hell isn't a suitable learning environment.

You seem to confuse language and accent; you can speak a language fluently without necessarily speaking in the native accent. I don’t know how you came to the conclusion that Asian students speak better English than African students. What I do know is that the vast majority of international students that I met during my postgraduate studies here in the UK and some of the ones I happen to teach speak very good English. English has always been an international language but other languages like Spanish and Mandarin are gradually becoming popular judging by the level of investments in their teaching and learning in UK schools.
There isn’t any confusion between language and intelligence but bilingual capability can only be good for your intelligence. People who are bilingual or even multi-lingual are able to think in different ways because their brain cells process their thoughts differently each time they speak or communicate in another language.

Dude first off, you know what I meant, I was talking about language so please even though I did put accent, I meant language

Yes people have had different experiences, but I've met international students from both sides and yes while they are enrolled in ESL classes, African students tend to need more classes compared to the other even in their end of sophomore classes.

beefy23:

@ Nija4Life

Both countries that you referred to do differ from our own in one essential area - they have leaders that at the very least have the welfare of their citizens at the forefront of their thoughts.

Whether we teach in English or WaZoBia - the fact that the schools are in such a state of decay in a country that has oil wealth is a great indictment.

Colonialism apart, when a country such as ours is faced with such ineptitude of leadership, it's a big disadvantage to the citizens if they're unable to get themselves educated to a standard where they can compete both locally and internationally.

I’m not sure what you’re on about to be honest, in my first post I did put the blame on the shoulders of the government past or present for the decay in education in Nigeria. My argument has always being in response to the Lagos deputy Gov as stated by the OP in which she seem to blame teachers lack of good English to the poor educational standards. All I have tried to do is to put things into perspective – I don’t completely agree with an educational system that judges people by their English language competency especially when it is a second language.

Nija4Life:

I’m not sure what you’re on about to be honest, in my first post I did put the blame on the shoulders of the government past or present for the decay in education in Nigeria. My argument has always being in response to the Lagos deputy Gov as stated by the OP in which she seem to blame teachers lack of good English to the poor educational standards. All I have tried to do is to put things into perspective – I don’t completely agree with an educational system that judges people by their English language competency especially when it is a second language.

Your comments about the Govt being partly to blame were noted as I hope I made clear in previous posts.

My gripe is that you seem to be saying that English should not be a hard/fast measure of educational excellence - I guess on this point we can agree to disagree. Playing to the lowest common denominator because the system can't be bothered to up its game is a great dis-service to the nation's younger citizens (and hopefully leaders to tomorrow).

manny4life:

Dude first off, you know what I meant, I was talking about language so please even though I did put accent, I meant language

Yes people have had different experiences, but I've met international students from both sides and yes while they are enrolled in ESL classes, African students tend to need more classes compared to the other even in their end of sophomore classes.

Apologies if I misunderstood you but there goes my point, you could have made your point more clearer in your first language (if at all not English).

When you say African students are they from Francophone or Anglophone countries? Or even former Portuguese colonies? Those from Anglophone countries will do better compared to the others because of their exposure to English language. You should also be aware that most of the Asian students have being taught in English by English People . Unlike most of us Africans who learn English from Nigerian teachers who themselves learnt it as an additional language.

Nija4Life:

I’m not sure what you’re on about to be honest, in my first post I did put the blame on the shoulders of the government past or present for the decay in education in Nigeria. My argument has always being in response to the Lagos deputy Gov as stated by the OP in which she seem to blame teachers lack of good English to the poor educational standards. All I have tried to do is to put things into perspective – I don’t completely agree with an educational system that judges people by their English language competency especially when it is a second language.

Your comments about the Govt being partly to blame were noted as I hope I made clear in previous posts.

My gripe is that you seem to be saying that English should not be a hard/fast measure of educational excellence - I guess on this point we can agree to disagree. Playing to the lowest common denominator because the system can't be bothered to up its game is a great dis-service to the nation's younger citizens (and hopefully leaders to tomorrow).

I still hold to that argument I’m afraid – a language allows you to access the curriculum. Whatever language that enables our children to do so should be promoted. I think our local languages are as important as the English language in delivering the world class education of our dreams.

@ Nija4Life

I also think that we are looking at this topic from 2 different perspectives:

Your view seems to be that just because one bumps into someone who can't speak English well, this should not be used a yardstick to judge the individual's overall intelligence level. If this is where you're coming from, I agree with you.

My view is that the status quo of allowing current educational standards to slip and keep on slipping because English is not the student's first language etc is a big no-no.

Citizens of countries like China, Iceland etc that teach in their native languages cannot be compared with Nigeria. Those citizens tend to be hot at things like Maths & Science which is not the case in our inefficiently run Naija. When was the last time you heard of some great scientific discovery from the Almajiri community or from the nomadic school community up in the North where they are perhaps taught in their native language and at a time/place when it suits them?

PS - I respect your view though I don't totally agree with its premise.

beefy23:

@ Nija4Life

I also think that we are looking at this topic from 2 different perspectives:

Your view seems to be that just because one bumps into someone who can't speak English well, this should not be used a yardstick to judge the individual's overall intelligence level. If this is where you're coming from, I agree with you.

My view is that the status quo of allowing current educational standards to slip and keep on slipping because English is not the student's first language etc is a big no-no.

Citizens of countries like China, Iceland etc that teach in their native languages cannot be compared with Nigeria. Those citizens tend to be hot at things like Maths & Science which is not the case in our inefficiently run Naija. When was the last time you heard of some great scientific discovery from the Almajiri community or from the nomadic school community up in the North where they are perhaps taught in their native language and at a time/place when it suits them?

PS - I respect your view though I don't totally agree with its premise.

Unfortunately if you aspire to deliver a world class education like most of us want to see in our country then you must look up to countries who have seen and done it before. The Almajiri example you gave swept me off my feet but listen I do know of the Ibo tribe who made bombs from local technology during the civil war – they didn’t do so speaking English. Those shoe and dress makers in Aba who make made in Nigeria products for decades didn’t do so speaking English either. They need support to turn small ideas into great ideas.
Good though that we agree on so many things and I do also respect your views even though I don’t agree with all of them too

Nija4Life:

Unfortunately if you aspire to deliver a world class education like most of us want to see in our country then you must look up to countries who have seen and done it before. The Almajiri example you gave swept me off my feet but listen I do know of the Ibo tribe who made bombs from local technology during the civil war – they didn’t do so speaking English. Those shoe and dress makers in Aba who make made in Nigeria products for decades didn’t do so speaking English either. They need support to turn small ideas into great ideas.

Good points made.

The worrying though is that if the Govt can't be bothered to do that which is little i.e. provide good facilities for both the teachers and the taught even if they are taught in local lingo; what hope is there that there will be enough support for some of the more enterprising citizens such as those you referred to in the East?

The Deputy governor shld enter class let us see what she can do.

This is one of the best thread I've ever come across on this forum, very interesting and and informative, especially the environment of learning in Nigeria. Pathetic!

On Teachers not being able to speak good English Language or write correct sentence in English; I don't think this should be a big deal. People is language and language is people. English Language belongs to the English people, Welsh Language (being spoken by the Welsh in United Kingdom- part of British) belongs to the Welsh. French Language belongs to French people (it was enriched in French constitution that no government representative should speak any other Language apart from French) Chinese speaks Chinese, Italian speaks Italian, Portuguese speaks Portuguese, Spanish speach Spanish, German speak Dutch etc while then can't we allow Yoruba to speak Yoruba, Hausa to speak Hausa, Ibo to speak Ibo? People might ask what about the Nigerian minorities who can't understand these three main languages? Fine, this is what expert in people's management call 'integration'. If you real feel like be part of a tribe then please learn their language and be part of them.

I've been saying this for many years that, using other people's language to live our lives is one of our major problem in Nigeria. Language is a mirror which says a lot about you or those who speak it. Using English Language to teach people a way of life is making people stupid.
The reason Nigerians cannot boast of any single innovation or invention other than blowing grammar is because they are using other people's language to learn. For instance, ask any Nigerian Engineer what produces electricity, I honestly believe he/she wouldn't know. You can never ever be pratical in life by using other people's language to learn, never!
The only thing that can lift us up and make us reach our potentials as an educated fellow is when we start comminicating in our mother's tongue.

Eaglebabe:

The Deputy governor shld enter class let us see what she can do.

You may find out that she is dab hand at teaching the intricacies of 'chop I chop' politics and the very subtle nuances of feathering your own nest while in public office while simultaneously trying to make a show of actually doing something for the public good.

I don't know her personally and she probably has a good heart - the only problem is that we 'Naija' are good at identifying problems (lamenting this and that) and not really following through with the necessary action to correct the problems.

OPCman:


The only thing that can lift us up and make us reach our potentials as an educated fellow is when we start comminicating in our mother's tongue.  

LOL, It would be a blast seeing how this would be applied in fields like quantum mechanics, fluid dynamics or perhaps the intricacies of international finance, swaps, derivatives etc

OPCman:

This is one of the best thread I've ever come across on this forum, very interesting and and informative, especially the environment of learning in Nigeria. Pathetic!

On Teachers not being able to speak good English Language or write correct sentence in English; I don't think this should be a big deal. People is language and language is people. English Language belongs to the English people, Welsh Language (being spoken by the Welsh in United Kingdom- part of British) belongs to the Welsh. French Language belongs to French people (it was enriched in French constitution that no government representative should speak any other Language apart from French) Chinese speaks Chinese, Italian speaks Italian, Portuguese speaks Portuguese, Spanish speach Spanish, German speak Dutch etc while then can't we allow Yoruba to speak Yoruba, Hausa to speak Hausa, Ibo to speak Ibo? People might ask what about the Nigerian minorities who can't understand these three main languages? Fine, this is what expert in people's management call 'integration'. If you real feel like be part of a tribe then please learn their language and be part of them.

I've been saying this for many years that, using other people's language to live our lives is one of our major problem in Nigeria. Language is a mirror which says a lot about you or those who speak it. Using English Language to teach people a way of life is making people silly.
The reason Nigerians cannot boast of any single innovation or invention other than blowing grammar is because they are using other people's language to learn. For instance, ask any Nigerian Engineer what produces electricity, I honestly believe he/she wouldn't know. You can never ever be pratical in life by using other people's language to learn, never!
The only thing that can lift us up and make us reach our potentials as an educated fellow is when we start comminicating in our mother's tongue. 

Good point, at least someone seem to reason with me. English language skill is important but not the be and end of education. There is more to a good quality education than just speaking English

^^Surely you must see that is off point. Students of nowadays must be fluent in at least one international language. In Nigeria the language at hand is English.

There is no need here to settle for the line of least resistance. In this case it is up to the LASG to appoint competent qualified teachers in its schools.

tensor777:

There is no need here to settle for the line of least resistance. In this case it is up to the LASG to appoint competent qualified teachers in its schools.

Now I can say I'm not alone with my line of reasoning in this matter.

tensor777:

There is no need here to settle for the line of least resistance. In this case it is up to the LASG to appoint competent qualified teachers in its schools.

It depends if there are many 'competent qualified' teachers around to employ like you seem to suggest. The place to start from is to find out what teacher training programme is in place in Lagos State. Is the standard any where good enough? If the answer is yes then the problem of good teachers would not be an issue otherwise where do you intend to recruit the so called 'competent qualified' teachers from?

I believe that there are competent teachers in Lagos state at least fluent enough to speak and teach English at the basic level, what I think the problem is the teachers compromise because of the inability of the students to learn in an English speaking environment. Also the state government is not enforcing the standards because they believe its ok and why I say that is students should be tested on competency exams like its done here; speaking, reading and writing and set a cut off mark so any school lacking behind the score would know that they have to sit up.

manny4life:

I believe that there are competent teachers in Lagos state at least fluent enough to speak and teach English at the basic level, what I think the problem is the teachers compromise because of the inability of the students to learn in an English speaking environment. Also the state government is not enforcing the standards because they believe its ok and why I say that is students should be tested on competency exams like its done here; speaking, reading and writing and set a cut off mark so any school lacking behind the score would know that they have to sit up.

No teacher in Nigeria will teach you to be fluent in English language as much as you would like except you are learning the language from a native speaker. The alternative is to read and write as much as possible and also listen to native speakers, at least that is the way we learnt in our days.

@Nija4life, u are right about the use of English in Nigeria`s educational system, I have always believed in the use of our native tongue in education due to my experience in high school. I remember a particular guy from Ilesha that couldn`t read or write that well in English and how fellow students made fun of him because of it, which at the time I thought was on fair. The poor guy was actually the best farmer in our class but couldn`t learn properly because of the language barrier. I think this eventually led to his dropping out of school. I believe if he had been thought in Yoruba he would have learnt these same subjects he struggled to grasped. He could have carried on further in his education and learnt the aspects of modern farming which he excelled at or what ever discipline he chose. But sadly our colonial mentality education denied him this opportunity.

The language barrier I think is the reason alot of Nigerians cram during the course of their education without truly understanding what they are reading. As someone commented earlier if we want to excel in the sciences like the Chinese and Indians we need to take a leaf from their system where native tongue is the mode of teaching, but this as not stopped them from learning English as a second language.

^^^

If we want to be honest with ourselves - was the title of the post really a problem say 20-30 years ago? Is there anyone participating in this thread that can say that the standard held by the teachers back then was as bad as it is now?

Bear in mind that this is the same educational system that produced the likes of Profs Chike Obi, Awojobi, Emeagwali, Barr. Fawehinmi etc to name a few.

The point made about nurturing those students for whom English is a struggle is important and that's why the educational system needs to up its game. If however they can't be bothered to provide good facilities for tutor/pupils then things like having a vocational approach to education are a pipe dream.

Dumbing down the system though is not the answer - look at what's happening in the UK that has gradually been doing the same. Now there is virtually zero to non manufacturing taking place, very little creative work going on; all they have left is the service based economy while the likes of India, China, Korea and some parts of Europe where they do not play with education are still powering ahead.

Dia is a Pst in my church. He did his schooling in d village at Kabba (Kogi). After becomn a teacher, he said he cant speak good english nor write until he came to lagos b4 we start buildn him

SHALOM

beefy23:

^^^

If we want to be honest with ourselves - was the title of the post really a problem say 20-30 years ago? Is there anyone participating in this thread that can say that the standard held by the teachers back then was as bad as it is now?

Bear in mind that this is the same educational system that produced the likes of Profs Chike Obi, Awojobi, Emeagwali, Barr. Fawehinmi etc to name a few.

The point made about nurturing those students for whom English is a struggle is important and that's why the educational system needs to up its game. If however they can't be bothered to provide good facilities for tutor/pupils then things like having a vocational approach to education are a pipe dream.

Dumbing down the system though is not the answer - look at what's happening in the UK that has gradually been doing the same. Now there is virtually zero to non manufacturing taking place, very little creative work going on; all they have left is the service based economy while the likes of India, China, Korea and some parts of Europe where they do not play with education are still powering ahead.

The reason why the standard of education has fallen dramatically today is the same reason why health care delivery is in shambles; the same reason why our roads were better 20-30 years ago than they are today; the same reason why food was more available and affordable 20 – 30 years ago than they are today; I can go on and on. The same educational system may have produced the Chike Obis, the Emegwalis, the Awojobis etc but we want an educational system that will produce the likes of these people in their droves and not in trickles.
The decline in manufacturing in the UK is not so much to do with the educational system but rather the high cost of doing business for which India and China provides a cheaper and cost effective alternative.

Nija4Life:

The decline in manufacturing in the UK is not so much to do with the educational system but rather the high cost of doing business for which India and China provides a cheaper and cost effective alternative.

You are right there. I was not sure what the beefy guy was on about there to be honest. After all the main research and development is still done in the UK, even though product manufacturing is outsourced to factories in the far east mainly due to lower labour costs.

Nija4Life:


The decline in manufacturing in the UK is not so much to do with the educational system but rather the high cost of doing business for which India and China provides a cheaper and cost effective alternative.

I beg to differ on this point - part of the decline in manufacturing is that the sciences are no longer being promoted as they were. The emergence of academies is part of the overall plan to dumb down the system by offering 'vocational certificates' as a replacement for the old standard A levels. Cost is one thing but there's definitely a  dumbing down of the system and this is the route that we should not follow in Nigeria. We cannot afford in this day and age to have an under-educated (or should I call it inadequately educated) populace.

Can we get back to the topic and not make unguarded statements about the state of education in Nigeria generally. In fact I wouldn't say there has been a decline in standards per se, but more that the rate of improvement has not kept pace with countries in the Far East.
Probably the LASG has to overhaul the system whereby primary school teachers are trained  recruited and remunerated and bring it more into line with what is obtained in Western and Far Eastern countries.
This could entail ensuring that graduates of different disciplines interested in primary school teaching are given the opportunity to enrol on 1 year teacher training programmes.
Eventually we should envisage the redundancy of the extant grade 2 teacher qualification and  consequently improved quality of staffing in the primary schools of Lagos state.

beefy23:

The emergence of academies is part of the overall plan to dumb down the system 

Its actually quite the opposite. It is a system whereby selected private individuals or groups take over the administration of a poorly performing publicly funded school and run it along the lines of privately owned schools. In other words the relevant local education authority is no longer responsible for maintaining the school, and the owners are given a free hand in coming up with measures to improve quality and service delivery.
The proviso  is that the school is still funded by central government.
The aim is that actually there should be an overall improvement in academic standards and that most students  would leave the school equipped to go on to further education and training.