all4naija: What are you going about with this comment? It is clear you didn't understand the UNODC reports. I would opt you read them when you have the chance to do so than coming here to insult those who have done so. By going about it through posting of irrelevant statement won't help matters.

Mbuisi:

There you go again. Xenophobic attacks took place in 2008 and ever since then they never happened. I was in SA at the time and those attacks never claimed life on a large scale. Xenophobia only happened in JHB and not in other areas of SA. The Marikana saga only claimed 34 lives and does not even come close to what BH has done now recently. It is just a shame that terrorist killings are impossible to be listed as homicide cases since such crimes are not prosecutable in court or else Nigeria would be taking the trophy.

Mbuisi:

In that case I will assume that you haven't study statistics at school. I recommend you to enrol for a course on basic statistics.

sithwell: I get banned for a few hours; and I come back to a cat fight

I didn't know I couldn't use the words b.okkko here...

Welcome back,dude. It happens to everyone one time or the other here.

@ the b.okko .

agaugust:


[size=14pt]

I did NOT edit @zetdee 's post. The south African guy posted the truth without knowing it, the murder rate he quoted for Nigeria was actually the rate for South Africa, his BBC web link confirmed it.

Immediately I referred to it as a confirmation of South African murder rate 80,000 people killed in last 4 years, @zetdee began to deny himself like Peter denied Jesus.

We cannot find a honest man of honour from South Africa, what a shame. [/size]

Mbuisi:

There you go again. Xenophobic attacks took place in 2008 and ever since then they never happened. I was in SA at the time and those attacks never claimed life on a large scale. Xenophobia only happened in JHB and not in other areas of SA. The Marikana saga only claimed 34 lives and does not even come close to what BH has done now recently. It is just a shame that terrorist killings are impossible to be listed as homicide cases since such crimes are not prosecutable in court or else Nigeria would be taking the trophy.

Mbuisi:

There you go again. Xenophobic attacks took place in 2008 and ever since then they never happened. I was in SA at the time and those attacks never claimed life on a large scale. Xenophobia only happened in JHB and not in other areas of SA. The Marikana saga only claimed 34 lives and does not even come close to what BH has done now recently. It is just a shame that terrorist killings are impossible to be listed as homicide cases since such crimes are not prosecutable in court or else Nigeria would be taking the trophy.

all4naija: Welcome back,dude. It happens to everyone one time or the other here.

@ the b.okko .

all4naija:

The question is as follows:

Which country really has the strongest(not the best) military among these two nations of Nigeria and South Africa?

Thank you.

sithwell:
Why? Has President Jonathan decided he's overstretched his military budget; and that he'll now issue Nigerian soldiers with swords, like Spartans?

zetdee:

I took the number of homicides per year of Nigeria and multiplied it by 4 years thats how I got my 80 000, isn't that how you got your 60 000 for SA.

www.wikipedia.org/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

agaugust:

nigeria is different from south africa. our law allows president jonathan to spend extra funds outside the approved national budget on defence or security to any level necessary to protect nigerian interests. money for defense is NOT a problem to nigeria. QED

sithwell:

That's not the point. This was a tongue-in-cheek comment to point out that "strength" is irrelevant. The absolute minimum is health, brains and motivation. Even women can be soldiers these days. This is not S-S-S-Paaaaart-aaaaaa!

Donian007: NIGERIA SHOPS FOR MORE POWERFUL FIGHTER JETS: www.beegeagle./2012/10/10/nigeria-are-likely-customers-for-hongdu-l15-falcon-supersonic-trainerlight-attack-jets-moscow-defense-brief/

agaugust: .
@andrewza, listen,

In real war combat situation the aircraft in the wide open sky is in danger from the anti aircraft missile hiding in the bush on ground. That's simple common sense.

You have not researched anti aircraft war history the way I did .

In gulf war ordinary Iraqi anti aircraft guns I mean old out-dated cannon guns shot down several American F-15 jet fighters the best planes in the world at that time.

Be realistic with your comments and don't push your south African pilots to think they are safe in a grippen jet because it's a 4.5 generation jet.

Older air defense always shoot down more modern jet fighter aircraft in all war major history history. Google is your friend.


Standard military fact is that if jet aircraft flies to high it cannot see the target of is bombing far below on ground and the bombs get wasted in trial and error bombing. If the aircraft tries to follow standard air to ground attack principles of 5km maximum altitude it will enter the range of anti-aircraft defenses. South African airforce is NOT American air force, and your grippen jets don't last long in the air due to short combat radius and you have only 26 jets too few to rule a big sky and have super effect fire power in a territory guarded by too many air defenses.

It took thousands of American and NATO jet fighters to weaken Iraqi air defenses. South africa is NOT a super power.


One single Roland SAM, see my post below, defended an air base against a whole British jet fighter squadron, Roland fired 8 missiles and 1 shot down a Harrier Jet and 2 shot down the two bombs the jet dropped.

British military never tried to attack the Roland again, because it will shoot down any aircraft challenging it. British forces had to wait till British Army defeated Argentinian army on ground and capture the Roland only after Argentina surrendered.

Roland SAM has excellent records in war history, no jet fighter pilot ever challenged Roland and survive, they die.

Grippen jet has no record of any combat against any SAM air defense, so all your claims are assumptions and personal opinion

We need to wait for real war when Grippen jet faces a SAM missile anti aircraft defense, then we can compare the result.

Can you use your connection to ask south African air force to play war game with Nigerian army Roland SAM ?

I am not joking please, lets try it. One Nigerian Roland to fire 10 missiles in 2 minutes against One South African Grippen jet as the jet attacks the Roland to strike it with accuracy from the air.

Make sure the pilot kissed his wife goodbye before the war game because his jet will soon be kissed by 10 Roland missiles.

Lets see who will survive. Read more on Roland SAM below.

agaugust:

strength ? nigerian women soldiers will defeat south african men soldiers in real infantry hand to hand close range gun fights, especially if it is urban warfare.

agaugust:

quote weblink source to prove south africa has higher cash reserve than nigeria.

i already proved on this forum and @sitwell your country man could NOT deny my figures. niegria has higher cash dollar reserves than south africa and your debt burden is 6 times worse than nigeria. do i need to repeat the world bank data posts of last week ?



as at today south african grippen has NO long range weapons to threaten nigerian Roland missile defence. i researched UN and SWEDEN SIPRI arms sales log, sweden only gave south africa short range air to air missiles. try to be honest and realistic.

also, nigeria too will not sleep in war with south africa, you buy new weapons, nigeria too will buy new weapons.




show me proof of any NATO jet better than Tornado during the gulf war against iraq.

you say Roland did not shoot down flying bombs ? your research on Roland is too poor. read it, Falkland war records, Roland shot down 2 British Royal air force 1,000 pounds bombs dropped by jet fighters in the air.

i quote :

"Argentina purchased 4 Roland shelter-mounted systems for static defense of fixed installations and one of these was deployed to defend Stanley airfield during the Falklands War with Britain in 1982. This system fired 8 out of the 10 missiles it was deployed with and is credited with shooting down one Harrier Jump Jet and two 454 kg bombs. This system was captured intact by the British."

weblink source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roland_missile

i have proved enough of Roland Missile, i have other things to do with my time.

Mbuisi:

Andrewza you being funny with my Kenyan boys, they always have an element of surprise. Those boys have got a stamina and you should never let them to fight old men. They will give Nigeria a run for their money. LOL!!!

andrewza:

you assume to much

andrewza:

you dont know what i do for fun, i have 1000 of pages on all things milltary. I did not join the milltary for a job i joined it because it is my love.

andrewza:

AA guns are not old fasion, and in a high EW/ECM/ESM enviorment very use full. not to menstion they got a ground attack role. though in the SANDF they all so radar guided now.

andrewza:
mm a harrie have a problem in attacking a deffend base, seems all correct there. other than it,s vtol abliety it realy averiage.

andrewza:

actualy gripen where part of the attack on libya.

andrewza:

yes it took nato consbil effort to defeat iraq. 2 problems with use that exampel.
1 nigeria is not 1991 iraq 2 you assume we would rush to victory, nigeria is unstabil we just need to push it over the edge.

andrewza:

o and the tornado was not a good aircraft. thr best nato aircraft of the gulf.

andrewza:

SAAF has had a lot of experiance to build doctrain and tatics in pentotrating air defence in angola.

andrewza:

you got 16 roland in order for them to be a threat they will have to contriaght around one area. leave the rest of the country open.

Henry120: It's a pity what this thread has turned to. I used to enjoy the thread. It's now a full time dump, languishing away in the rarely visited foreign affairs section. Very shameful!!!

sithwell:

All4Naija, bro - it's time to move on from this. There's no need to keep talking about a history you clearly don't have an understanding of.

The Portuguese have nothing to to with SA, other than Vasco da Gama's having "discovered" Natal, while he was passing by.

There's no such thing as Independence Day in SA. Never mind what they teach you. It's Freedom Day. A totally different concept.

Let's just accept there isn't an understanding of South African history in Nigeria; and leave it at that. There's nothing wrong with that. We don't expect that everyone will know everything about us.

It's good to ask, but asserting things as if you do know what you're debating can't be right. Come, now.

khukhi:

Hey,atleast we know that we are not just "over rated". There are people who are reading up on our beautiful country even though its clear how incorrect the source may be in other cases.

agaugust: great Tornado jet






you make careless assumptions that can lead to sudden death of your military men



i spend 70% of my life time for the past 20 years studying military weapons, war history, combat strategy and tactics.
i work in private dfense company as a research support staff. i am a civilian but i work for retired military officers at colonel rank level



anti aircraft guns are outdated in this age of jets making ground attack at 800km per hour. the guns AA still kill jets today because the man in the sky is always the one in danger, he has no cover to hide in the open wide sky above. even optical AA gun hiding in the bush is a threat to the pilot in open sky




thank God you told one half truth today. Sea Harrier jet is not slow it has supersonic speed of 1,180km per hr. Tornado is supersonic of 2,400km per hr and still killed by Roland SAM.



no web link source for that claim, and even if so Grippen jet showed face after american sea based long range cruise missiles and anti-radiation missiled wiped out libyan air defences from distance stand off position. sweden is NOT a super power.



south africa too is not america, your airforce is far behind the level of american air force. forget this joke

nigeria is NOT unstable the way you think. dont judge nigeria with b.oko h.aram crisis, any country attacking nigeria now will enter the mouth of the lion, nigeria hates defeat, she has a big pride, nigeria will mobilize a one million man army in one month.

let me help you with war history. 1980 iraq attacked iran because of military coup in iran to overthrow government, ayatollah locked all iran`s air force pilots in jail. after iraq`s first wave attack. ayatollah released his enemies from prison to fly F-14 jets. the pilots did it for national pride, iraq could no longer win the war for 8 years until stalemate and ceasefire agreement.

i advise you many times, never under-estimate your enemy`s reaction in war. mistake will cost many human lives.



give us technical details to prove Tornado is not a good jet. it is a jet made by combined engineering effort of Britain, Germany, and Italy...the 3 great super powers of Europe. almost 1,000 Tornado jet are still in combat service today with super powers Britain, Germany, Italy and will remain in service till year 2020.

prove to me it is not a good jet fighter. you make many dangerous mistakes with your military combat analysis, you can make soldiers under your command to go to early grave.

tornado jet weblink source : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panavia_Tornado




south african airforce was hiding on ground most times of the war, fear of Cuba`s air force. google is your friend, we have treated this topic before.



nigerian airspace is too big for south african tiny air force of 26 grippen jets, nigerian territory is almost one million square kilometers, too big a giant for 26 jets to have any impact, you need over 100 powerful jet aircraft to try anything meaningful against a giant nigeria.

andrewza you are a careless soldier, you gonna get k.illed the way you under-rate enemy counter tactics, not only you can think, your enemy forces will think too. that is war. i pity your wife.


.

andrewza:

yet you have still given poor information and some case outright misinformation.

Most modern AA guns are radar guided or assisted. And have you ever shot a target at 800km a hour. Bombing run yes but even that is hard. In order to be accurate(like when providing danger close CAS) you need to go a slower. The rolan was designed to kill enemy aircraft flying at Mach 1.3 most aa guns would achieve a similar success of course at a much decreased range

i take it you don't know what the speed of sound is.

what you want a weblink for, sweden took part with gripen non where lost, libya had real air defense unlike nigeria.

i never compared us to america you however did compare yourself to 1991 iraq.

you unstable, you work in the job that mentions that. i have a few reports that cover that very topic. BH is symptom not a cause


You comparing your self to iran now?

firsthand experience, they did not do so weel vs SAN/SAAF in a war game.

foolish notion SAAF launched a number of very successful attacks penetrating a real air defense system. Not that ting nigeria has.

lots of nothing to ignore though.

you post a lot uniformed and misinformation fulled posts why.

A 1000-strong South African contingent is expected to be deployed to the region within a month as part of an African intervention force. It will almost certainly be drawn into conflict with the heavily armed and battle-hardened M23 rebel group after the collapse of peace talks between the rebels and the central government in Kinshasa.

One of 33 rebel groups in the region, the M23 has 40t of munitions looted from DRC army armouries in clashes in the east of the country last year.

The M23 routed DRC government forces in November in a fight for the capital of the country's eastern region, Goma, where South African peacekeepers were deployed. In the battle for Goma, South African soldiers were caught by surprise and the M23 forces - whose officers have over 20 years of jungle combat experience - were able to take the town within days.

Reported to have access to T55 and T72 Soviet-era tanks, and armed with anti-tank and surface-to-air missiles, anti-aircraft guns, heavy machine guns, armoured vehicles and rocket-propelled grenades, the M23's 5500-strong force is in the final stages of preparing for war.

The rebels have upped their propaganda war against the South Africans since warning President Jacob Zuma last month of a "catastrophic and apocalyptic" response if the SANDF engaged them.

The group has since revealed that it plans to kidnap SANDF troops to force South Africa to about-turn on the deployment.

The rebels are said to be backed by Rwandan and Ugandan military advisers and special forces, a claim both countries deny.

In March, the UN Security Council authorised the deployment of a 3000-man intervention force to the DRC to work alongside 17000 UN peacekeepers. The intervention force, which will comprise South African, Malawian and Tanzanian troops, is expected to arrive in the DRC within a month.

As opposed to the peacekeeping force, the new intervention force's mandate will see troops being able to engage rebel forces regardless of provocation in order to bring stability to the region.

Two months ago 13 South African paratroops were killed in the battle for the Central African Republic's capital, Bangui.

South Africa's most serious military disadvantages in that battle were lack of air support and poor intelligence - the same situation now faced by the troops destined for the DRC.

The SANDF has limited heavy-lift air transport capability, its Rooivalk attack helicopters' Makopa anti-tank missiles are not yet certified, and it is most unlikely that the air force's Gripen fighter jets will be deployed to the DRC. Knowing all this, South African soldiers are gravely concerned about the impending battle.

An army officer, who has knowledge of the mission's planning, said: "We train and fight hard. We know our job and are capable, but with little air support, this fight is difficult. We learned good lessons in CAR but, make no mistake, this will not be easy.

"The M23 are well-armed and have good intelligence. They will not fight conventionally. It will be guerrilla-style attacks preying on our weaknesses, and our lack of cohesion and joint training with the other forces."

SANDF spokesman Brigadier-General Xolani Mabanga declined to comment other than to say: "We are awaiting the UN's force deployment orders."

Defence analyst Helmoed Heitman said: "The M23 are not a bunch of ragtag rebels. They are superior in their jungle-fighting capabilities with backing from neighbouring countries [that are] running proxy military forces in the region.

''Our biggest problem is lack of air capabilities. We have the Rooivalk attack helicopter and Oryx troop-carrying helicopters, but we have no proper heavy-lift transport aircraft to get our equipment and troops in and out safely.

"The Rooivalk's anti-tank missile is not certified, meaning it will have to get dangerously close to the enemy for its rockets to be effective.

"We are taking our long-range G5 cannon and various armoured vehicles but these vehicles will not withstand the M23's fire-power. Their 37mm anti-aircraft guns are lethal both to air and ground targets and they have the support of tanks and special forces."

Heitman said major hindrances included the lack of intelligence. "Our defence intelligence is what got us into trouble in CAR.

"Added to this is the UN's view that this is just another peacekeeping mission. Instead of additional forces, they divided the current peacekeeping force, transferring the South African brigade to the intervention force and creating a vacuum for the rebels to capitalise on. This is not peacekeeping. It will be aggressive counter-guerrilla warfare in which people, including civilians, will die. You need numbers that are not there to bring about peace."

Heitman said the M23 rebels knew the SANDF's capabilities.

"They will not pick on us. They will pick on the possible weak links - Malawi and Tanzania - who have little battle experience. They will harass, divide and conquer." He added: "They have the strong possibility of tank and special forces support."

Maria Langer, DRC country manager for International Alert - a UK "peace-building" NGO - described the security situation as critical.

"The M23 have regrouped into key areas and are recruiting civilians for the war. They are 5km from Goma and are poised to take the town.

"Not only are the M23 around, but so are 30 other rebel groups."

Langer said: "The intervention force was designed to be a persuasive and preventative force but the DRC government sees it as a military solution."

Written by GRAEME HOSKEN for Timeslive | 13 May, 2013

http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/?articleId=9054737

homerac7: [size=18pt]SOUTH AFRICA CAUGHT OUT N.A.KED! Andrewza come and start another round of lies to deny this coming from your own military about your ineptitude SANDF[/size]