There are hundreds of religions flourishing around the world: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Bahaism, Babism, Zoroastrianism, Mormonism, Jehovas Witnesses, Jainism, Confucianism etc. And each of these religions claim that their scripture is preserved from the day it was revealed (written) until our time. A religious belief is as authentic as the authenticity of the scripture it follows. And for any scripture to be labeled as authentically preserved it should follow some concrete and rational criteria.



Imagine this scenario:

A professor gives a three hour lecture to his students. Imagine still that none of the students memorized this speech of the professor or wrote it down. Now forty years after that speech, if these same students decided to replicate professor's complete speech word for word, would they be able to do it? Obviously not. Because the only two modes of preservation historically is through writing and memory.

Therefore, for any claimants to proclaim that their scripture is preserved in purity, they have to provide concrete evidence that the Scripture was written in its entirety AND memorized in its entirety from the time it was revealed to our time, in a continuous and unbroken chain. If the memorization part doesn't exist parallel to the written part to act as a check and balance for it, then there is a genuine possibility that the written scripture may loose its purity through unintentional and intentional interpolations due to scribal errors, corruption by the enemies, pages getting decomposed etc, and these errors would be concurrently incorporated into subsequent texts, ultimately loosing its purity through ages.

Now, of all the religions mentioned above, does any one of them possess their scriptures in its entirety BOTH in writing AND in memory from the day of its revelation until our time.

None of them fit this required criteria, except one: This unique scripture is the Qur'an - revelation bestowed to Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) 1,418 years ago, as a guidance for all of humankind.

Lets analyze the claim of the preservation of the Quran,


Memorization

'In the ancient times, when writing was scarcely used, memory and oral transmission was exercised and strengthened to a degree now almost unknown' relates Michael Zwettler.(1)

Prophet Muhammad (S): The First Memorizer

It was in this 'oral' society that Prophet Muhammad (S) was born in Mecca in the year 570 C.E. At the age of 40, he started receiving divine Revelations from the One God, Allah, through Archangel Gabriel. This process of divine revelations continued for about 22.5 years just before he passed away.

Prophet Muhammad (S) miraculously memorized each revelation and used to proclaim it to his Companions. Angel Gabriel used to refresh the Quranic memory of the Prophet each year.

'The Prophet (S) was the most generous person, and he used to become more so (generous) particularly in the month of Ramadan because Gabriel used to meet him every night of the month of Ramadan till it elapsed. Allah's Messenger (S) use to recite the Qur'an for him. When Gabriel met him,.
he use to become more generous than the fast wind in doing good'. (2)

'Gabriel used to repeat the recitation of the Qur'an with the Prophet (S) once a year, but he repeated it twice with him in the year he (Prophet) died'. (3)

The Prophet himself use to stay up a greater part of the night in prayers and use to recite Quran from memory.

Prophet's Companions: The First Generation Memorizers

Prophet Muhammad (S) encouraged his companions to learn and teach the Quran:

'The most superior among you (Muslims) are those who learn the Qur'an and teach it'. (4)

'Some of the companions who memorized the Quran were: 'Abu Bakr, Umar, Uthman, Ali, Ibn Masud, Abu Huraira, Abdullah bin Abbas, Abdullah bin Amr bin al-As, Aisha, Hafsa, and Umm Salama'. (5)

'Abu Bakr, the first male Muslim to convert to Islam used to recite the Quran publicly in front of his house in Makka'. (6)

The Prophet also listened to the recitation of the Qur'an by the Companions: 'Allah Apostle said to me (Abdullah bin Mas'ud): "Recite (of the Quran) to me". I said: "Shall I recite it to you although it had been revealed to you?!" He Said: "I like to hear (the Quran) from others". So I recited Sura-an-Nisa' till I reached: "How (will it be) then when We bring from each nation a witness and We bring you (O Muhammad) as a witness against these people?"' (4:41) 'Then he said: "Stop!" Behold, his eyes were shedding tears then'. (7)

Many Quranic memorizers (Qurra) were present during the lifetime of the Prophet and afterwards through out the then Muslim world.

'At the battle of Yamama, many memorizers of the Quran were martyred. 'Narrated Zaid bin Thabit al Ansari, who was one of those who use to write the Divine Revelations: Abu Bakr sent me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra were killed). Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said: "Umar has come to me and said, the people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be some casualties among the Qurra (those who memorized the entire Quran) at other place, "' (

'Over the centuries of the Islamic Era, there have arisen throughout the various regions of the Islamic world literally thousands of schools devoted specially to the teaching of the Quran to children for the purpose of memorization. These are called, in Arabic, katatib (singular: Kuttab). It is said that the Caliph 'Umar (634-44) first ordered the construction of these schools in the age of the great expansion'. (9)

Second Generation Memorizers:

", Quranic schools were set up everywhere. As an example to illustrate this I may refer to a great Muslim scholar, of the second Muslim generation, Ibn 'Amir, who was the judge of Damascus under the Caliph Umar Ibn 'Abd Al-Aziz. It is reported that in his school for teaching the Quran there were 400 disciples to teach in his absence". (10)



Memorizers in Subsequent Generations:

The Number of Katatib and similar schools in Cairo (Egypt) alone at one time exceeded two thousand. (11)

Currently both in the Muslim and non-Muslim countries thousands of schools with each instructing tens of hundreds of students the art of memorizing the entire Quran. In the city of Chicago itself, there are close to 40+ Mosques, with many of them holding class for children instructing them the art of Quranic memorization.


Second Generation Memorizers:

", Quranic schools were set up everywhere. As an example to illustrate this I may refer to a great Muslim scholar, of the second Muslim generation, Ibn 'Amir, who was the judge of Damascus under the Caliph Umar Ibn 'Abd Al-Aziz. It is reported that in his school for teaching the Quran there were 400 disciples to teach in his absence". (10)



Memorizers in Subsequent Generations:

The Number of Katatib and similar schools in Cairo (Egypt) alone at one time exceeded two thousand. (11)

Currently both in the Muslim and non-Muslim countries thousands of schools with each instructing tens of hundreds of students the art of memorizing the entire Quran. In the city of Chicago itself, there are close to 40+ Mosques, with many of them holding class for children instructing them the art of Quranic memorization.


Further Points of Consideration:

* Muslims recite Quran from their memory in all of their five daily prayers. * Once a year, during the month of Fasting (Ramadan), Muslims listen to the complete recitation of the Quran by a Hafiz (memorizer of the entire Quran) * It's a tradition among Muslims that before any speech or presentation, marriages, sermons, Quran is recited.



Conclusion:

Quran is the only book, religious or secular, on the face of this planet that has been completely memorized by millions. These memorizers range from ages 6 and up, both Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, blacks, whites, Orientals, poor and wealthy.

Thus the process of memorization was continuous , from Prophet

Muhammad's (S) time to ours with an unbroken chain.

"The method of transmitting the Quran from one generation to the next by having he young memorize the oral recitation of their elders had mitigated somewhat from the beginning the worst perils of relying solely on written records, " relates John Burton (12)

"This phenomenon of Quranic recital means that the text has traversed the centuries in an unbroken living sequence of devotion. It cannot, therefore, be handled as an antiquarian thing, nor as a historical document out of a distant past. The fact of hifz (Quranic Memorization) has made the Qur'an a present possession through all the lapse of Muslim time and given it a human currency in every generation never allowing its relegation to a bare authority for reference alone" reflects Kenneth Cragg (13)


what can you say about the authenticity of the Bible?

Written Text of the Quran

Prophet's Time:

Prophet Muhammad (S) was very vigilant in preserving the Quran in the written form from the very beginning up until the last revelation. The Prophet himself was unlettered, did not knew how to read and write, therefore he called upon his numerous scribes to write the revelation for him. Complete Quran thus existed in written form in the lifetime of the Prophet.

Whenever a new revelation use to come to him, the Prophet would immediately call one of his scribes to write it down.

'Some people visited Zaid Ibn Thabit (one of the scribes of the Prophet) and asked him to tell them some stories about Allah's Messenger. He replied: "I was his (Prophet's) neighbor, and when the inspiration descended on him he sent for me and I went to him and wrote it down for him, " (14)

Narrated by al-Bara': There was revealed 'Not equal are those believers who sit (home) and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah' (4:95). The Prophet said: 'Call Zaid for me and let him bring the board, the ink pot and scapula bone.' Then he (Prophet) said: 'Write: Not equal are those believers, ' (15)

Zaid is reported to have said: 'We use to compile the Qur'an from small scraps in the presence of the Apostle'. (16)

The Prophet, while in Madinah, had about 48 scribes who use to write for him'. (17)

Abdullah Ibn 'Umar relates:, 'The Messenger of Allah (S) said: "Do not take the Qur'an on a journey with you, for I am afraid lest it should fall into the hands of the enemy"' (18)

During the Prophet's last pilgrimage, he gave a sermon in which he said: 'I have left with you something which if you will hold fast t it you will never fall into error - a plain indication, the Book of God (Quran) and the practice of his Prophet, ' (19)

'Besides the official manuscripts of the Quran kept with the Prophet, many of his companions use to possess their own written copies of the revelation'. (20)

'A list of Companions of whom it is related that they had their own written collections included the following: Ibn Mas'ud, Ubay bin Ka'b, Ali, Ibn Abbas, Abu Musa, Hafsa, Anas bin Malik, Umar, Zaid bin Thabit, Ibn Al-Zubair, Abdullah ibn Amr, Aisha, Salim, Umm Salama, Ubaid bin Umar'. (21)

'The best known among these (Prophet's Scribes) are: Ibn Masud, Ubay bin Kab and Zaid bin Thabit'. (22)

'Aisha and Hafsa, the wives of the Prophet had their own scripts written after the Prophet had died'. (23)

Conclusion:

The complete Quran was written down in front of the Prophet by several of his scribes and the companions possess their own copies of the Quran in the Prophet's lifetime. However the written material of the Quran in the Prophet's possession were not bounded between the two covers in the form of a book, because the period of revelation of the Qur'an continued up until just a few days before the Prophet's death. The task of collecting the Qur'an as a book was therefore undertaken by Abu Bakr, the first successor to the Prophet.


Written Quran in First Generation:

At the battle of Yamama (633 CE), six months after the death of the Prophet, a number of Muslims, who had memorized the Quran were killed. Hence it was feared that unless a written official copy of the Quran were prepared, a large part of revelation might be lost.

Narrated Zaid bin Thabit al-Ansari, one of the scribes of the Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra (memorizers of the Quran, were killed). Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said: "Umar has come to me and said, the people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle) of Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be some casualties among the Qurra at other places, whereby a large part of the Quran may be lost, unless you collect it (in one manuscript, or book), so Abu Bakr said to me (Zaid bin Thabit): You are a wise young man and we do not suspect you (of telling lies or of forgetfulness) and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah's Apostle. Therefore, look for the Qur'an and collect it (in one manuscript)', So I started locating the Quranic material and collecting it from parchments, scapula, leafstalks of date palms and from the memories of men (who know it by heart), " (24)

Now, a committee was formed to under take the task of collecting the written Quranic material in the form of a book. The committee was headed by Zaid bin Thabit, the original scribe of the Prophet, who was also a memorizer of the complete Quran.

', Zaid bin Thabit had committed the entire Quran to memory, ' (25)

The compilers in this committee, in examining written material submitted to them, insisted on very stringent criteria as a safeguard against any errors.

1. The material must have been originally written down in the presence of the Prophet; nothing written down later on the basis of memory alone was to be accepted. (26) 2. The material must be confirmed by two witnesses, that is to say, by two trustworthy persons testifying that they themselves had heard the Prophet recite the passage in question. (27)

'The manuscript on which the Qur'an was collected, remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him, and then with Umar (the second successor), till Allah took him unto Him, and finally it remained with Hafsa, 'Umar's daughter (and wife of the Prophet)'. (28)

This copy of the Quran, prepared by the committee of competent companions of the Prophet (which included Memorizers of the Quran) was unanimous approved by the whole Muslim world. If they committee would have made a error even of a single alphabet in transcribing the Quran, the Qurra (memorizers of the Quran) which totaled in the tens of hundreds would have caught it right away and correct it. This is exactly where the neat check and balance system of preservation of the Quran comes into play, but which is lacking for any other scripture besides the Quran.


Official written copy by Uthman

The Quran was originally revealed in Quraishi dialect of Arabic. But to facilitate the people who speak other dialects, in their understanding and comprehension, Allah revealed the Quran finally in seven dialects of Arabic. During the period of Caliph Uthman (second successor to the Prophet) differences in reading the Quran among the various tribes became obvious, due to the various dialectical recitations. Dispute was arising, with each tribe calling its recitation as the correct one. This alarmed Uthman, who made a official copy in the Quraishi dialect, the dialect in which the Quran was revealed to the Prophet and was memorized by his companions. Thus this compilation by Uthman's Committee is not a different version of the Quran (like the Biblical versions) but the same original revelation given to the Prophet by One God, Allah.

Narrated Anas bin Malik: Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham (Syria) and the people of Iraq were waging war to conquer Armenia and Azherbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their differences in the recitation of the Quran, so he said to Uthman, 'O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and Christians did before'. So Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, 'Send us the manuscripts of the Quran so that we may compile the Quranic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you'. Hafsa sent it to Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-As and Abdur Rahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, 'In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Quran, then write it in their (Quraishi) tongue'. They did so, and when they had written many copies, Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied and ordered that all the other Quranic materials whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt, " (29)



Again a very stringent criteria was set up by this Committee to prevent any alteration of the Revelation.

1. The earlier recension (Original copy prepared by Abu Bakr) was to serve as the principal basis of the new one. (30) 2. Any doubt that might be raised as to the phrasing of a particular passage in the written text was to be dispelled by summoning persons known to have learned the passage in question from the Prophet. (31) 3. Uthman himself was to supervise the work of the Council. (32)

When the final recension was completed, Uthman sent a copy of it to each of the major cities of Makka, Damascus, Kufa, Basra and Madina.

The action of Uthman to burn the other copies besides the final recension, though obviously drastic, was for the betterment and harmony of the whole community and was unanimously approved by the Companions of the Prophet.

Zaid ibn Thabit is reported to have said: "I saw the Companions of Muhammad (going about) saying, 'By God, Uthman has done well! By God, Uthman has done well!" (33)

Another esteemed Companion Musab ibn Sad ibn Abi Waqqas said: "I saw the people assemble in large number at Uthman's burning of the prescribed copies (of the Quran), and they were all pleased with his action; not a one spoke out against him". (34)

Ali ibn Abu Talib, the cousin of the Prophet and the fourth successor to the Prophet commented: "If I were in command in place of Uthman, I would have done the same". (35)

Of the copies made by Uthman, two still exist to our day. One is in the city of Tashkent, (Uzbekistan) and the second one is in Istanbul (Turkey). Below is a brief account of both these copies:

1. The copy which Uthman sent to Madina was reportedly removed by the Turkish authorities to Istanbul, from where it came to Berlin during World War I. The Treaty of Versailles, which concluded World War I, contains the following clause:

'Article 246: Within six months from the coming into force of the present Treaty, Germany will restore to His Majesty, King of Hedjaz, the original Koran of Caliph Othman, which was removed from Madina by the Turkish authorities and is stated to have been presented to the ex-Emperor William II". (36)

'This manuscript then reached Istanbul, but not Madina (Where it now resides)'. (37)

2. The second copy in existence is kept in Tashkent, Uzbekistan. 'It may be the Imam (master) manuscript or one of the other copies made at the time of Uthman'. (38)

It Came to Samarkand in 890 Hijra (1485) and remained there till 1868. Then it was taken to St.Petersburg by the Russians in 1869. It remained there till 1917. A Russian orientalist gave a detailed description of it, saying that many pages were damaged and some were missing. A facsimile, some 50 copies, of this mushaf (copy) was produced by S.Pisareff in 1905. A copy was sent to the Ottoman Sultan 'Abdul Hamid, to the Shah of Iran, to the Amir of Bukhara, to Afghanistan, to Fas and some important Muslim personalities. One copy is now in the Columbia University Library (U.S.A.). (39)

'The Manuscript was afterwards returned to its former place and reached Tashkent in 1924, where it has remained since'. (40)


Conclusion:

'Two of the copies of the Qur'an which were originally prepared in the time of Caliph Uthman, are still available to us today and their text and arrangement can be compared, by anyone who cares to do, with any other copy of the Quran, be it in print or handwritten, from any place or period of time. They will be found identical'. (41)

It can now be proclaimed, through the evidences provided above, with full conviction and certainty that the Prophet memorized the entire Quran, had it written down in front of him through his scribes, many of his companions memorized the entire revelation and in turn possess their own private copies for recitation and contemplation. This process of dual preservation of the Quran in written and in the memory was carried in each subsequent generation till our time, without any deletion, interpolation or corruption of this Divine Book.

Sir Williams Muir states, " There is otherwise every security, internal and external, that we possess the text which Muhammad himself gave forth and used". (42)

Sir William Muir continues, "There is probably no other book in the world which has remained twelve centuries (now fourteen) with so pure a text". (43)

This divine protection provided to the Quran, the Last Reveled Guide to Humanity, is proclaimed by One God in the Quran:

We* (Allah) have, without doubt, send down the Message; and We will assuredly Guard it (from corruption)' (Quran - Chapter 15, Verse 9). *('We' is the plural of Majesty, and not the Christian plural of trinity)

Compare this divine and historical preservation of the Quran with any literature, be it religious or secular and it becomes evident that none possess similar miraculous protection. And as states earlier, a belief is as authentic as the authenticity of its scripture. And if any scripture is not preserved, how can we be certain that the belief arising out of this scripture is divine or man made, and if we are not sure about the belief itself, then our salvation in the hereafter would be jeopardized. Thus this above evidence for the protection of the Quran from any corruption is a strong hint about its divine origin. We request all open hearted persons to read, understand and live the Quran, the 'Manual for Mankind'.

manuscript of the Qur'an in the 7th century,

@poster I have some questions 4 u. 1.islam claims 2 be d original religion of abraham,moses e.t.c how come there was no mention of d religion in d records of ancient historians like herodotus,xenophon,livy,josephus,tacitus e.t.c who lived b4 prophet mohamed. 2.How come allah could not prevent d original quran 4rm bn corrupted. The quran is simplx d plagiarism of d christian bible.nothing more

The Qur'an is pure and complete, not alteration,addition or subtraction,


The quran is simplx d plagiarism of d christian bible.nothing more

no, the Qur'an came to correct the corruption of the bible.

The Qur'an was not mentioned in the others book, but Prophet mohammed was mentioned. and he brought the qur'an,

Muslims&copy pasting are like a car &fuel. Will respond when im less busy.

experts:

Written Text of the Quran

Prophet's Time:

Prophet Muhammad (S) was very vigilant in preserving the Quran in the written form from the very beginning up until the last revelation. The Prophet himself was unlettered, did not knew how to read and write, therefore he called upon his numerous scribes to write the revelation for him. Complete Quran thus existed in written form in the lifetime of the Prophet.

Whenever a new revelation use to come to him, the Prophet would immediately call one of his scribes to write it down.







Compare this divine and historical preservation of the Quran with any literature, be it religious or secular and it becomes evident that none possess similar miraculous protection. And as states earlier, a belief is as authentic as the authenticity of its scripture. And if any scripture is not preserved, how can we be certain that the belief arising out of this scripture is divine or man made, and if we are not sure about the belief itself, then our salvation in the hereafter would be jeopardized. Thus this above evidence for the protection of the Quran from any corruption is a strong hint about its divine origin. We request all open hearted persons to read, understand and live the[b] Quran, the 'Manual for Mankind'.[/b]

The quran is a terrorist manual


Muhammad himself admitted that he was possessed by a devil:

‘Anas reported that Gabriel appeared before the Apostle of Allah (Muhammad), while he was playing with some boys. Gabriel took him, laid him down, pierced his heart, and took out a clot of blood. Then he said, “This is the portion of you possessed of a devil.” Next, he washed it in a gold cup with water from the well Zamzam. Thereafter sewed him up and took him back to where he found him…’ (Attended by Muslim. Al-Hadis, Volume 4 page 367)

Muhammad himself admitted that he was possessed by Satan at one time:
‘H[b]ave you, then, seen Al-Lat and Al-Uzza?
And Manat, the third one, the other?
These are exalted females (sublime ones),
Mounting nearer and nearer to Allah
And truly their intercession may be expected.
( Al-Qur’an, Sura 53 verse19-20, )[/b]

toba:

Muhammad himself admitted that he was possessed by a devil:

How are you, toba?

Well, that one is new on me. But be that as it may, I don't know what the OP was arguing that makes any sense. Let me spend some time playing with his recycled post and see how else to deal with his concerns.

@experts,

Please next time kindly let us know that you are reposting a plagiarised material from other sources. The article in your OP is not original to you but is attributed to one 'Sabeel Ahmed'. Some of us have come across Sabeel's redundant argument which has been recycled in many Muslim websites (try either IslamAwareness or Falsafah for example).

However, while Sabeel may have been on the illusion that his article was watertight, problem is that he did not tell you guys some very important things that prove more than a challenge to his ideas. We shall see some of them.

experts:

There are hundreds of religions flourishing around the world: Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Bahaism, Babism, Zoroastrianism, Mormonism, Jehovas Witnesses, Jainism, Confucianism etc. And each of these religions claim that their scripture is preserved from the day it was revealed (written) until our time.

Now, of all the religions mentioned above, does any one of them possess their scriptures in its entirety BOTH in writing AND in memory from the day of its revelation until our time.

Almost certainly not. We know that transcribing any document may involve certain problems with preservation, which again may affect other areas such as original manuscripts, translation difficulties and authenticity of content and style. These are very simple things to understand if you have any clue about literary or textual criticism. This fact holds true no matter the type or subject of the document - whether religious or non-religious documents.

Even so, the interesting thing here is that among all those religions you mentioned, Islam is not excluded (see it highlighted in the first quote above) - which tells us that your own religion Islam also suffers the same problems you see in others. Did you think about that before reposting Sabeel's misadventures here?

[size=13pt]The bible is a book full of Contradictions and this can easily tell how the Christianity bad idea have gone wrong. . . .upon all their plans and lies the bible is the most faulty book on earth .[/size]

@experts,
For now, let us understand that your concerns are NOT new on Nairaland. There is hardly any need to have answered to your reposting of that plagiarised argument here, especially where you made this claim in subsequent reply:

experts:

no, the Qur'an came to correct the corruption of the bible.

Actually, that is a fallacy. First, the Quran does not argue that the Bible is 'corrupt'; and more importantly in the second place, the Quran did not 'come' at any time to "correct" anything in the Bible or any other religious text for that matter! Instead, the Quran itself claims that it came to CONFIRM the Bible! Surprised? Don't be.

Your muslim claim about the Quran having come to 'correct' the Bible has been soundly debunked in another thread: 'Babs787, Where Did The Qur'an Say So?'. Any reader who's interested may find the discussion there quite illuminating - and you, expert in particular, may find some very pertinent 'corrections' there for your unfounded notions.

Not too long ago I started reading the Quran in English - and now that I've completed reading it, I can agree that there's not a single verse where Allah or Muhammad ever claimed that the Quran came to "correct" the Bible on any matter! Nada. Zilch. Nix. Not one verse ever. And in addition to the quranic verses given in the other thread above, let me post you some others to show that the Quran came to "CONFIRM" the Bible:

(1)

Quran 2 vs. 97 [Hilali-Khan tr.]
Say (O Muhammad Peace be upon him): "Whoever is an enemy to Jibrael (Gabriel) (let him die in his fury), for indeed he has brought it (this Qur'an) down to your heart by Allah's Permission, confirming what came before it [i.e. the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)] and guidance and glad tidings for the believers.

(2)

Quran 3 vs. 3 [Hilali-Khan tr.]
It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad SAW) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).

(3)

Quran 3 vs. 50 [Hilali-Khan tr.]
And I have come confirming that which was before me of the Taurat (Torah), and to make lawful to you part of what was forbidden to you, and I have come to you with a proof from your Lord. So fear Allah and obey me.

(4)

Quran 4 vs. 47 [Hilali-Khan tr.]
O you who have been given the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! Believe in what We have revealed (to Muhammad SAW) confirming what is (already) with you, before We efface faces (by making them like the back of necks; without nose, mouth, eyes, etc.) and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbathbreakers. And the Commandment of Allah is always executed.

(5)

Quran 5 vs. 46 [Yusuf Ali tr.]
And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.

(6)

Quran 46 vs. 30, [Hilali-Khan tr,]
They said: "O our people! Verily! We have heard a Book (this Qur'an) sent down after Musa (Moses), confirming what came before it, it guides to the truth and to a Straight Path (i.e. Islam).

Eh, mr. experts, the question now is: where did the Quran say that it came to "correct" anything in the Bible? But hey, why do you Muslims like making claims from your dribbling apologists without first checking for yourselves whether your plagiarism makes sense or not?

Now, just in case I might have missed it in my first reading of your quran, please find any verse(s) anywhere in the quran showing that it was given to "correct" anything in the Bible - and then post it.

Aside from the Quran poorly plagiarising and then "CONFIRMING" the Bible, we find that there are other sources in Islamic history which indicate that the Quran in its present form has NOT been preserved 'in its entirety BOTH in writing AND in memory from the day of its revelation until our time'. We shall examine this point soon enough.

^^^
@expert,

viaro:

We shall examine this point soon enough.

So, here we are to have a look. From Sabeel's arguments which you reposted:

experts:

Therefore, for any claimants to proclaim that their scripture is preserved in purity, they have to provide concrete evidence that the Scripture was written in its entirety AND memorized in its entirety from the time it was revealed to our time, in a continuous and unbroken chain.

Could you maintain that argument for the Quran - that it was:

             'written AND memorized in its entirety
              from the time it was revealed to our time,'?

Is that what the 'real evidence' from Islamic sources reveal to us in answer to that basic question? I don't think so - nada, zilch, nix.

Let's review some evidences from Islamic sources to the contrary in Sabeel's arguments:

FACT:  The Quran was not written and/or memorised in its entirety from the time it was 'revealed' to our time.

(a)    It is common knowledge that the third Caliph Uthman, after the redaction of the Quran, ordered all the other quranic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. This is attested in the hadith - Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 6, Book 61, #510:

[list]. . . 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)'[/list]

One wonders why there should be any "disagreements" at all if all copies of the Quran were exactly the same in their entirety. Also, what are we to make of Said bin Thabit's statement that he had missed a verse when copying the Quran? Could it be possible that other verses were also missed that Muslim apologists are happy not to let the world know anything about?

^^^
@experts,

(b)     So, from the hadith above in (a), it is possible that there were "disagreements" between the copyists, such that what came out as the final copy of the Quran was simply a matter of the 'ijma' ('concensus') of the 'mujtahid' ('islamic scholars') in Uthman's redaction committee. What the text itself said was not their primary concern of importance: rather, far more important to them was their own opinion as to how any verse should be written - if they "disagreed", then they chose rather to adopt what Uthman advised.

It is perhaps for that reason that we find a whole lot of 'disagreements' between the reciters of the quranic verses. For example, Sahih Bukhari Vol. 6, Bk 61, # 514 reveals one such among several of such disagreements between reciters - {"This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever (way) is easier for you (or read as much of it as may be easy for you)"}.

Not only were there such 'disagreements' in style of recitations, but also in content of those verses which are arguably not in the Quran. I don't know so many of such verses (still researching though); but here are a few that have featured in some discussions:

       ¬  "The Missing Verse(s) of the Quran on Stoning"

       ¬  "The Cancelled Verse(s) of the Martyrs of Badr"

       ¬   "The Missing Verse(s) of the Quran on Suckling"


So, first then with ¬ "The Missing Verse(s) of the Quran on Stoning"

Hadith Muslim: Sahih Muslim, Book 017, Number 4194:
'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.

I don't remember reading any verse in the Quran on stoning for adultery (it is possible that I might've missed it in my first reading); so a pertinent question to ask you (mr expert) here is this: Where is the verse on stoning in the Quran? Afterall, Umar b. Khattab claims that such a verse was revealed to Muhammad, the reciters indeed 'recited it, retained it in [their] memory and understood it' - so, why do we not find it in the Quran today?

^^^
@experts,

Second then, we look at ¬ "The Cancelled Verse(s) of the Martyrs of Badr"

(a)

Hadith Bukhari: Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 5, Book 59, Number 421:
Narrated Anas bin Malik :
The Prophet invoked evil upon those (people) who killed his companions at Bir Mauna for 30 days (in the morning prayer). He invoked evil upon (tribes of) Ril, Lihyan and Usaiya who disobeyed Allah and His Apostle. Allah revealed a Quranic Verse to His Prophet regarding those who had been killed, i.e. the Muslims killed at Bir Ma'una, and we recited the Verse till later it was cancelled. (The Verse was 'Inform our people that we have met our Lord, and He is pleased with us, and we are pleased with Him."

(b)

Hadith Bukhari: Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 5, Book 59, Number 416:
Narrated Anas bin Malik:
|| . . . . We used to read a verse of the Qur'an revealed in their connection, but later the verse was cancelled. It was: "convey to our people on our behalf the information that we have met our Lord, and He is pleased with us, and has made us pleased." (Anas bin Malik added Allah's Prophet said Qunut for one month in the morning prayer, invoking evil upon some of the 'Arab tribes (namely), Ril, Dhakwan, Usaiya, and Bani Libyan. (Anas added Those seventy Ansari men were killed at the well of Mauna.

(c)

Hadith Bukhari: Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 5, Book 59, Number 417:
||. . . . Then Allah revealed to us a verse that was among the cancelled ones later on. It was: 'We have met our Lord and He is pleased with us and has made us pleased.' (After this event) the Prophet invoked evil on the infidels every morning for 30 days. He invoked evil upon the (tribes of) Ril, Dhakwan, Bani Lihyan and Usaiya who disobeyed Allah and His Apostle.

Please expert, could either you or Sabeel please tell us why the verse on the martyrs of the battle of Badr is nowhere to be found in the Quran which you argue for 'preservation' in its "entirety"? Yes, we understand that the verse in question was cancelled - but does that not speak volumes to the fact that what you have as the Quran today is not its touted "entirety" but rather a redaction at the behest of the third Caliph Uthman?

^^^
@experts,

Third then, we take a look at ¬ "The Missing Verse(s) of the Quran on Suckling"

Sahih Muslim: Sahi Muslim, Book 008, Number 3421:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur'an (and recited by the Muslims).

Sahih Muslim: Sahi Muslim, Book 008, Number 3422:
'Amra reported that she beard 'A'isha (Allah he pleased with her) discussing fosterage which (makes marriage) unlawful; and she ('A'isha) said: There was revealed in the Holy Qur'an ten clear sucklings, and then five clear (sucklings).

So again, mr experts, could you show us where the verses on 'suckling' could be found today in your Quran in its 'entirety'?? Indeed, it is possible that I might have missed it or perhaps not remembered having read it - but please do us the favour of finding those verses (ten and five sucklings) and posting them for us.

Let's recap:

We noted that there are verses which are arguably not found in the Quran today even though Islamic sources (like the "sahih" [authentic] hadiths) tell us that such verses were actually once found among the revealed ones. The examples we have discussed above are -

       ¬  "The Missing Verse(s) of the Quran on Stoning"

       ¬  "The Cancelled Verse(s) of the Martyrs of Badr"

      ¬   "The Missing Verse(s) of the Quran on Suckling"

If it is established that any quranic verse at all for that matter which was revealed by 'Allah' cannot be found in the Quran, would you be arguing the same thing as Sabeel did - that the Quran was 'written in its entirety AND memorized in its entirety from the time it was revealed to our time'?? If you want to maintain that line of argument, then please first find those missing verses for us in the pages of the Quran you have today in its "entirety" - or tell us why we have such cases of missing and cancelled verses from you Quran of today.

Failing to see these points quite simply render the plagiarised arguments of Sabeel Ahmed redundant.

@Viaro

Actually, that is a fallacy. First, the Quran does not argue that the Bible is 'corrupt'; and more importantly in the second place, the Quran did not 'come' at any time to "correct" anything in the Bible or any other religious text for that matter! Instead, the Quran itself claims that it came to CONFIRM the Bible! Surprised? Don't be.

Your muslim claim about the Quran having come to 'correct' the Bible has been soundly debunked in another thread: 'Babs787, Where Did The Qur'an Say So?'. Any reader who's interested may find the discussion there quite illuminating - and you, expert in particular, may find some very pertinent 'corrections' there for your unfounded notions.

Could you please be explicit on what you meant by 'being soundly debunked'?

@Viaro

a) It is common knowledge that the third Caliph Uthman, after the redaction of the Quran, ordered all the other quranic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. This is attested in the hadith - Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 6, Book 61, #510:


. . . 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)'

One wonders why there should be any "disagreements" at all if all copies of the Quran were exactly the same in their entirety. Also, what are we to make of Said bin Thabit's statement that he had missed a verse when copying the Quran? Could it be possible that other verses were also missed that Muslim apologists are happy not to let the world know anything about?

Hold on dude. For calling something a disagreement, you should be able to provide a copy pf the Quran that says this and another copy saying that or a copy having a verse but missing in another copy just like we have examples in your book. I would agree with you when you are able to bring up a verse in the Quran missing but present in another or a verse saying yes and another saying no (you know i have examples from your book)

@Viaro

(b) So, from the hadith above in (a), it is possible that there were "disagreements" between the copyists, such that what came out as the final copy of the Quran was simply a matter of the 'ijma' ('concensus') of the 'mujtahid' ('islamic scholars') in Uthman's redaction committee. What the text itself said was not their primary concern of importance: rather, far more important to them was their own opinion as to how any verse should be written - if they "disagreed", then they chose rather to adopt what Uthman advised.

Let me tell you something that you fail to understand, there may be have been disagreement between the alleged copyists but you could never see such in the Quran. You will never see a verse present but missing in another and that alone shows the completeness of the book.

For example, so called disagreement are being made by the copyists in only the hadiths but not in the Quran while in your book, the copyists extended it to your holy book and you have these to debunk:


https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.0.html
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.32.html

It is perhaps for that reason that we find a whole lot of 'disagreements' between the reciters of the quranic verses. For example, Sahih Bukhari Vol. 6, Bk 61, # 514 reveals one such among several of such disagreements between reciters - {"This Qur'an has been revealed to be recited in seven different ways, so recite of it whichever (way) is easier for you (or read as much of it as may be easy for you)"}.

I thought you claimed to have read the Quran or better still understand Islam. The above is talking about ways to recite it and make it pleasing.

A reciter may recite differently through Tajweed but they all refer to same thing.Reciting in different ways does not have any big as you are portraying it. It is just like composing same songs for 5 singers. You should not expect them to sing the same way and if you are able to understand it that way, you would know that it is not a big deal reciting differently.

Not only were there such 'disagreements' in style of recitations, but also in content of those verses which are arguably not in the Quran. I don't know so many of such verses (still researching though); but here are a few that have featured in some discussions:

¬ "The Missing Verse(s) of the Quran on Stoning"

¬ "The Cancelled Verse(s) of the Martyrs of Badr"

¬ "The Missing Verse(s) of the Quran on Suckling"

I will get there.

So, first then with ¬ "The Missing Verse(s) of the Quran on Stoning"


Quote from: Hadith Muslim
Sahih Muslim, Book 017, Number 4194:
'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.

I don't remember reading any verse in the Quran on stoning for adultery (it is possible that I might've missed it in my first reading); so a pertinent question to ask you (mr expert) here is this: Where is the verse on stoning in the Quran? Afterall, Umar b. Khattab claims that such a verse was revealed to Muhammad, the reciters indeed 'recited it, retained it in [their] memory and understood it' - so, why do we not find it in the Quran today?

Why did Umar or any of the companions not include it if it supposed to be part of the Quran?

It was part of the recitation but abrogated but its ruling still remains.

Narrated 'Abdul 'Aziz bin Rufai': Shaddad bin Ma'qil and I entered upon Ibn 'Abbas. Shaddad bin Ma'qil asked him, "Did the Prophet leave anything (any other Qur’an besides this Qur'an)?" He replied. "He did not leave anything (any other revelation) except what is (safe) between the two bindings (of the Qur'an[/b])." Then we visited Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiyya and asked him (the same question). He replied, "[b]The Prophet did not leave (any other revelation) except what is between the bindings (of the Qur'an)."


Hold on please.

@Viaro


We both know ourselves. Let us be civil this time. I could see that this thread was 'intelligently' diverted but wopuld continue shortly.

going thru dis thread it is clear that the contents of the quran were decided upon by mortals who neva got d revelations which is why Zaid bin Thabit's was different .

such a book cannot be authentic so d argument can stop now.the quran is just as unauthentic as other holy books.

nice one viaro.

"'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt."

this is why the quran has only one version.nobody did this for the bible

Why don't you guys just go back to your islamic section and stay there? Its obvious you have no identity except in relation to christianity - if you do, then go away and stop saying the same things over and over! Intelligent threads by thinking people had started to become the norm here

How about you be real and show me what made it not to be real

nuclearboy:

Why don't you guys just go back to your islamic section and stay there? Its obvious you have no identity except in relation to christianity - if you do, then go away and stop saying the same things over and over! Intelligent threads by thinking people had started to become the norm here

No they can never go away.Everythng about islam is forcy,just like mohammad tricked his son&took the wife.The islamic Section is as good as dead with no intellectually challenging threads being opened.They re here to seek relevance.

Hello babs787,

babs787:

@Viaro
Could you please be explicit on what you meant by 'being soundly debunked'?

@babs787, I posted the link to the thread where that Muslim fallacy was debunked. I went through that link from the first to last page and did not find any intelligent answers from ANY Muslim to show anywhere that the Quran claimed to have come to "correct" any line in the Bible - rather, as was pointed out, the Quran in many places claimed to have been sent to CONFIRM the Bible. I hope that is clear enough?

babs787:

@Viaro
Hold on dude. For calling something a disagreement, you should be able to provide a copy pf the Quran that says this and another copy saying that or a copy having a verse but missing in another copy just like we have examples in your book. I would agree with you when you are able to bring up a verse in the Quran missing but present in another or a verse saying yes and another saying no (you know i have examples from your book)

Dude, I clearly pointed out the three areas of concerns that are NOT found in the Quran. I can trust you to either be honest to have seen those areas - or rather be a typical Muslim and DENY them as much as you wish. The point is that we have grown tired of Muslims claiming this and that and then denying those same claims. The precise quotes of the SAHIH hadiths (Bukhari and Muslim) attest to those verses that were either cancelled or are missing in the Quran - nevermind that Muslims are alwasy excusing Uthman's burning of all copies of the Quran AFTER his own political redactions.

babs787:

@Viaro
Let me tell you something that you fail to understand, there may be have been disagreement between the alleged copyists but you could never see such in the Quran. You will never see a verse present but missing in another and that alone shows the completeness of the book.

Babs787, please do kindly stop excusing the obvious fallacy of that Muslim claim. The hadiths I quoted showed that there were disagreements between the copyists; and these are attested in several other hadith verses I cited to show those missing verses. My question was simply that Muslims should please show us either WHERE those verses are found in the Quran or explain WHY they were altogether cancelled and not found in the present Quran today. You seem to be filling pages with excuses rather than just go straight and provide answers to those pertinent questions - I don't expect you would provide any answers in future though ... which is the usual Muslim thing to do.

babs787:

For example, so called disagreement are being made by the copyists in only the hadiths but not in the Quran while in your book, the copyists extended it to your holy book and you have these to debunk:

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.0.html
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-46848.32.html

Em, sorry - it is a factual lie you waving here in our faces, so please keep it to yourself. No sincere and honest Muslim with a good conscience will lie publicly that it is only in the hadiths that copyists had disagreements - that is why the SAHIH hadiths are named "sahih" because Muslims hold them as AUTHENTIC and AUTHORITATIVE! It will be queer of you to come and make these pale and lame excuses here in this time and age as if the usual Muslim games of deception ever works around here. It is either your "sahih" hadiths are 'sahih' or you're saying that Muslim scholars who called them SAHIH have been lying to their Muslim ummah. Which one is it?

@babs787,

babs787:
I thought you claimed to have read the Quran or better still understand Islam. The above is talking about ways to recite it and make it pleasing.

What I stated is clear - unless you no longer understand English. This was what I said:

    Not too long ago I started reading the Quran in English - and now that
    I've completed reading it, I can agree that there's not a single verse
    where Allah or Muhammad ever claimed that the Quran came to "correct"
    the Bible on any matter! Nada. Zilch. Nix.

I did not claim anywhere to have "recited" the Quran in either quraish or any other arabian dialect! So, what I said still stands solid and sweet - IN ENGLISH. Therefore, if any copy of the Quran ever claimed that it was given to "correct" the Bible, please post that quran verse for us all to see! If you cannot find that verse for us, everything you have argued here is an absolute waste and confirms you had no mission here than to fill pages with empty noise.

At the very least I gave Quran verse that affirm that the Quran was given to CONFIRM the Bible. Now please find that quran verse that claims that your Quran came to "correct" the Bible - for that is the whole point in my comments to mr experts (unless you are the mr experts). If you cannot find that verse, why are you wasting your own time here?

A reciter may recite differently through Tajweed but they all refer to same thing.Reciting in different ways does not have any big as you are portraying it. It is just like composing same songs for 5 singers. You should not expect them to sing the same way and if you are able to understand it that way, you would know that it is not a big deal reciting differently.

Did I claim anywhere to have "recited" the Quran? Please show me.

You muslims are a very funny bunch of people. The subject here is not about who recited what. I could not care less whose recitations occured in 70 milliom ways; but for all intents and priposes, any muslim claiming that the Quran came to "correct" the Bible is lying through his or her yellow teeth! Period. If you don't want to be confirmed as such, then post that verse where the Quran in any "recitation" or "translation" claims the Quran came to "correct" te Bible - or just keep your Muslim fallacy to yourself.

I will get there.

You never get anywhere - please answer the simple question I asked above. Thank you.

Why did Umar or any of the companions not include it if it supposed to be part of the Quran?

Dude, I was not Umar's partner in compilation nor did I dictate for him what he was intending to do. It is up to Umar to answer that question himself - which sadly is impossible, since he has long been buried. The fact is that Muslims during his time noted that such a verse was revealed by allah and was recited and memorised by Muslims -

    'Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent
    down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was
    sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it.'

Since that was the OBVIOUS case, it is not up to me to find excuses for why Umar or anybody else did not include it in the Quran. The excuse that it was abrogated does not even cut it for you - the point was that those Muslims recited such a verse, retained it in memory, understood it, and acted upon it - but today that verse is NOT found in the quran. That is the point - and no muslim excuse will cover it.

It was part of the recitation but abrogated but its ruling still remains.

Just listen to yourself, dude! That is quite a shame and you know in your conscience that is a lie. There are Muslim scholars who do not claim that what was abrogated "still remains" in its ruling! Oh gosh! It's either you guys find it convenient to use all sorts of doublespeak when caught out flatly with your pants down, or you just keep foaming out more and more excuses!

Look, I'm not a Muslim, but what I draw upon to state here are from MUSLIM sources! As regards abrogation of verses in the Quran, it is Muslim scholars themselves who tell us that there are different types of verses - those called nasikh (the abrogat[b]ing[/b] verses) and those called mansukh (the abrogat[b]ed[/b] verses). The point at the end of the day is that the abrogating verses mark the end of the validity of the abrogated verses. This is the concensus of Islamic scholars themselves - and therefore your claim as regards the abrogated verses as "its ruling still remains" is a FARCE!

Narrated 'Abdul 'Aziz bin Rufai': Shaddad bin Ma'qil and I entered upon Ibn 'Abbas. Shaddad bin Ma'qil asked him, "Did the Prophet leave anything (any other Qur’an besides this Qur'an)?" He replied. "He did not leave anything (any other revelation) except what is (safe) between the two bindings (of the Qur'an[/b])." Then we visited Muhammad bin Al-Hanafiyya and asked him (the same question). He replied, "[b]The Prophet did not leave (any other revelation) except what is between the bindings (of the Qur'an)."

You know why that is also a fallacy? Oh c'mon! We know that the compilaton of the Quran into a single codex took place AFTER the death of Muhammad! You guys are a funny bunch!

Muslims themselves cannot excuse this fact; so here's an excerpt from one Muslim source: "It was not in book form but in different parchments. Other Companions also had collections of the Qur'an for their personal record but no standard copy of the Qur'an in book form existed." (see Albalagh)

@babs787,

babs787:

@Viaro
We both know ourselves.

Please don't try to bribe me - I don't know you from Adam; but I find it very queer indeed that the way you argue issues here are very, very not impressive at all. The concerns I tabled in reply to mr. experts are simple: it's either you don't have any answers so you don't need to offer excuses to twist anything; or you just want to waste your time impressing no one else but yourself. The one thing I would like to see is that you don't come forward making false and unfounded statements.

Let us be civil this time. I could see that this thread was 'intelligently' diverted but wopuld continue shortly.

I welcome civility - but not deliberate falsehood. There was NOTHING "intelligent" in your comments or in mr. experts PLAGIARISM of Sabeel's redundant arguments.

__________________________

My questions are simple enough:

(1) please post me the verse to verify the claim made by mr experts that the Quran came to "correct" the Bible. I have posted a few verses that I have read in the Quran saying that it came to CONFIRM the Bible - without arguing anything! So please post me the verses that say that the Quran came to "correct" the Bible, without dribbling or arguing anything. No excuses please - SIMPLY POST THE VERSE FROM THE QURAN. Period.

(2) I gave specific examples of verses which Muslims in Muhammad's time were reciting as PART OF THE REVEALED verses from Allah, verses which no one had any authority to excuse away from the Quran:
¬ "The Missing Verse(s) of the Quran on Stoning"
¬ "The Cancelled Verse(s) of the Martyrs of Badr"
¬ "The Missing Verse(s) of the Quran on Suckling"
What those verses contained are found in the SAHIH hadiths I quoted; but they are NOT found ANYWHERE in the Quran. If you have any Quran verses where they are found, please just simply post the verses and let's read for ourselves. We are not interested in any arguments and excuses you make - ONLY POST THE VERSES and let us read for ourselves. Period.

If you don't have any of those verses to post, don't bore us with your usual Muslim excuses. I hope you can appreciate my simple request - and thanks in advance.

With viaros submissions, case closed.Expert couldnt prove that the quran came to correct the bible,neither was babs able to do same. I would not be suprised if the islam dude comes to twist things around&ignore viaros question,like he has been doing on this thread.

viaro = pilgrim1 . . . case closed!

By the way where is the "expert"?

davidylan:

viaro = pilgrim1 . . . case closed!

David's Epiphany

davidylan:

viaro = pilgrim1 . . . case closed!

By the way where is the "expert"?

i was a little busy,

i will get back shortly and everything will be explained,

stay cool

@Viaro,

There is something you seemingly misunderstand with Mr. Experts's post, and that is: there are many, many issues that are already discussed by another person(s), knowing that therefore shun-away every need to re-compose the same piece with the same content. I kinda believe taking it and re-posting it is not what you claim it--plagiarism, especially since boards like this one is not an academic platform. Though I believe with something you raise, at least to some extent, that he (Experts) should include the piece's link for at least regard to the effort of its original writer.

That was just a by the by.

On the thread topical issue, you got really wrong there: although I can't, as of now, point directly a single verse where the noble Qur'an is said to be correcting the Bible, yet there are numerous proofs that that's what it has been sent to. For a typical example take the contents of the both two sacred books. On many instances bible tells stories that were later found and proved incorrect, unscientific, fiction, etc and when compared side by side with that of the Qur'an the latter's found correct, scientific, based on historical facts etc. This does not stay here but also on matters about the God, His being, His messengers and their acts, etc.

I'm afraid I lack sufficient time I should have to demonstrate these points to and other readers. But I'll see to it later, inshaAllah.

[size=13pt]muhsin my man. . . . did you just confirm me on facebook?[/size]