@ Zikkyy

Okay, That's ok

@ Aletheia

I wonder what would be a tenth increase in whatsoever passeth under the rod??

Ok I guess you are against tithing or are you against cash tithing?

All the same do what you think is right and leave the rest for GOD,

D-optimist:

@ Aletheia

I wonder what would be a tenth increase in whatsoever passeth under the rod??

Ok I guess you are against tithing or are you against cash tithing?

Aletheia pele  this guy is ready to drive you insane if you allow him.

@Zikky:

Don't be unfair to D-Optimist. I think it is worth it answering his questions patiently - at times new information can be overwhelming and all the senses seem to scream out against anything that contradicts what you've believed or felt or been taught for so long

@D-Optimist:
Both Zikky and Aletheia are against "tithing"! Let me define that for you so it is clear. "Tithing" as we say it, is the "obligation" of paying a tenth of your income to your local church.

1stly, it is not Christian as it makes "giving" a compulsion AND ALSO forces a particular percentage.

2ndly, it is not even been taught the way it was in the Old Covenant (under the law of Moses) as then, even though there was money in use, it was only agricultural produce (crops and animals) that were tithed. Even at that, they were tithed only in every third year. e.g. you pay tithe in 2004 then you pay 2007 then you pay in 2010. Not every year.

3rdly, under the old covenant, tithes were given to 4 categories of people [1] the Widow [2] Strangers (people you don't know who needed help) [3] Fatherless [4] the Levites (because they had no inheritance in Israel and would starve otherwise.

Finally, friend, I did not say "pay your tithe but not as if you owe anyone". What I said was "continue giving. If God lays it on your mind this month to give 5%, give 5%. If next month, He lays it on you to give 60%, please give 60%. There is NO fixed percentage for Christians to give. What is important is to follow the leading of God's Spirit inside you and help both the church AND the poor/widow/stranger".

I hope you understand now.

@ Nuclearboy

You know what, I like the way you approach issues not in a rowdy way.

I want you to also understand that even this 10% we are talking about, it's not compulsory. As I said earlier, even to be born again is not compulsory so nobody will force you in any church to give 10% of your income. No church will ask you to write your name and the salary you earn so as to monitor how you pay tithe. No one will put gun to your head in any of the RCCG parishes worldwide or any believing church to get money from you in the name of tithe. You are a slave to what ever you believe even in Christianity or any other religion cos you will definitely do what the religion says or want you belief in.

I want to believe that as many people in the forum that their response were yes, they meant it and no amount of argument will make them change their mind and vise versa with those that says No.

So wouldn't we rather do what ever we believe in and think is right and stop accusing MOGs and fellow worshipers that do pay.

As long as you know the facts, it is then your choice what you do. AS LONG AS YOU KNOW. That is all we want - that people decide with knowledge of the facts

I don't seem to see any fact here, cos if the law was condemned and we are in the era of grace, why then do we still keep some the laws that was given to Moses. According to Heb 7 down that you guys quoted.

Please remind me of where Jesus listed his own rules or ways we should follow. I mean like a commandment cos before there's any Grace there must be a wrong doing somewhere.

Thanks

Then why are we saved by Grace if you believe we are still under Moses law? BTW, which are you keeping?

OK, Image123, I will answer your questions.  Because of the time differences, I am just getting up and I see a lot has been written since yesterday.

You said, referring to Malachi, "Verse 5 addresses not just priests, but also sorcerers, adulterers and so on."

Yes, but as I said, the word YOU in that verse is being spoken to the priests.

You referred to "sons of Jacob."  Weren't the priests sons of Jacob?  The Word doesn't say ALL sons of Jacob.

The priests had ROBBED God.  The Word doesn't say anyone WITHHELD paying or didn't pay the Tithe.  How do you rob someone?  BY STEALING from them, and the priests STOLE the Levites portion of the tithe at the Temple per Nehemiah 13.

You bring up Nehemiah 13v12 but don't seem to understand what is going on here.  Verse 10 shows the ROBBING GOD of the tithe.  The Levites had taken the portion of the tithe THEY NEEDED FOR THEMSELVES TO LIVE ON and the priests stole it.  When the people heard this, they took brought the tithe to the Temple for the Levites.  This was NOT the normal way of paying the tithe.  The tithe was normally taken to the Levites to go INTO THEIR CITIES, where they lived.

D-optimist said, "No church will ask you to write your name and the salary you earn so as to monitor how you pay tithe."

My research shows that tithing, the way it is taught in the churches today, started in the United States in the second half of the 1800s.

MANY churches in the United State are now REQUIRING members to furnish a copy of their government form W-2 which the employer furnishes at the end of the year that shows your yearly wages. Some require this of all members. Some require it only if you hold any position in the church. This is used to verify whether or not you have paid the church the full ten percent.

Just wait until that spreads to your country.

@ Nuclearboy

So you are telling me that you can kill now after you had given your life to Christ and without repenting and turning away from it, you'll be forgiven. Absolutely NO.

Jesus didn't come to confuse us. NOTE THAT,

Definitely if you kill and you don't repent over it if you die now you'll roast in HELL. Agreed.

D-optimist:

So wouldn't we rather do what ever we believe in and think is right and stop accusing MOGs and fellow worshipers that do pay.

I don’t understand why you should be bothered about the bit highlighted above. The MOGs can defend themselves.

@ garyarnold

That you see is wrong. Nothing in Christiandom is compulsory, all is for our own good. God is really not interested in our money but he is trying to see if we can give back free to him what he's given us. that all. Maybe they think they are helping the worshipers not to disobey.

I want to say that the action is wrong.

@ Zikkyy

Who made you a judge over them. Judge not.

I'm gone.
Thanks

garyarnold:

The priests had ROBBED God. The Word doesn't say anyone WITHHELD paying or didn't pay the Tithe. How do you rob someone? BY STEALING from them, and the priests STOLE the Levites portion of the tithe at the Temple per Nehemiah 13.

Same situation we find ourselves with modern day tithing practice gary, the pastors hold on to the full tithe. The church workers never get to have their share of 90%.

D-optimist:

@ Zikkyy

Who made you a judge over them. Judge not.

Am sure if rev. kings atrocities had gone un-noticed you would made similar comment on his behalf, after all he is/was an anointed MOG.

D-optimist:

@ Nuclearboy

So you are telling me that you can kill now after you had given your life to Christ and without repenting and turning away from it, you'll be forgiven. Absolutely NO.

Jesus didn't come to confuse us. NOTE THAT,

Definitely if you kill and you don't repent over it if you die now you'll roast in HELL. Agreed.

@nuclearboy, if you do decide to carry out such act (as highlighted above), I can guess with 100% accuracy who the victim will be 

^^^ God forbid but if truly it were possible, who do you think it'll be on NL?

nuclearboy:

^^^ God forbid but if truly it were possible, who do you think it'll be on NL?

Ha. I am keeping that close to my chest for now Am learning from e1234 or what was his name again

garyarnold:

D-optimist  said, "No church will ask you to write your name and the salary you earn so as to monitor how you pay tithe."

My research shows that tithing, the way it is taught in the churches today, started in the United States in the second half of the 1800s.

MANY churches in the United State are now REQUIRING members to furnish a copy of their government form W-2 which the employer furnishes at the end of the year that shows your yearly wages.  Some require this of all members.  Some require it only if you hold any position in the church.  This is used to verify whether or not you have paid the church the full ten percent.

Just wait until that spreads to your country.

Gary, don't mind this D-optimist and image123, I suspect they're old "members" who went on a "pilgrimage" and came back to NL with different names, they sound familiar.
They don't seem to be employed so won't know about W2 forms and all that, when one is so busy looking for Scriptural passages to dupe innocent folks, they tend to act like these two. Some Churches in the good 'ol USA now have ATM machines on the premises, credit card processing equipment, direct deposit arrangements for tithes, seed offerings, building funds, etc. They tell you EXPLICITLY that you are required to tithe 10% before taxes, don't be surprised when they come up with paying tithes on flex spending accounts real soon.


D-optimist, I never said I paid tithes, I indicated tax to IRS was unavoidable if one doesn't intend to go to jail, let me know when not paying tithes becomes a criminal offense. The Germans collect between 5-10% (religious tax) from every worker who claims to be a Christian in their employment application, are those people still required to give 10% to their Church?

Some of these money hungry Christians only know about monetary giving, Charity means love too! What is it called if I give my time to help someone/Church out?


Did tent makers, Carpenters, Fishermen, etc pay tithes in those days?

@D-optimist
Read romans 13:8-10 it would answer your question on how christ commanded we fufill the law and the most important christian doctrine.

D-optimist:

I don't seem to see any fact here, cos if the law was condemned and we are in the era of grace, why then do we still keep some the laws that was given to Moses. According to Heb 7 down that you guys quoted.

Like which ones?

D-optimist:

[size=14pt]Please remind me of where Jesus listed his own rules or ways we should follow. I mean like a commandment[/size] cos before there's any Grace there must be a wrong doing somewhere.

Thanks

You are hereby reminded:

John 13:34  A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
John 15:12  This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John 15:17  These things I command you, that ye love one another.

OK, Image123,
You said, referring to
Malachi, "Verse 5
addresses not just priests,
but also sorcerers,
adulterers and so on."
Yes , but as I said, the
word YOU in that verse is
being spoken to the
priests.
You referred to "sons of
Jacob." Weren't the
priests sons of Jacob? The
Word doesn't say ALL
sons of Jacob.
The priests had ROBBED
God. The Word doesn't
say anyone WITHHELD
paying or didn't pay the
Tithe. How do you rob
someone? BY STEALING
from them, and the
priests STOLE the Levites
portion of the tithe at
the Temple per
Nehemiah 13.
You bring up Nehemiah
13v12 but don't seem to
understand what is going
on here. Verse 10 shows
the ROBBING GOD of the
tithe. The Levites had
taken the portion of the
tithe THEY NEEDED FOR
THEMSELVES TO LIVE ON
and the priests stole it.
When the people heard
this, they took brought
the tithe to the Temple
for the Levites. This was
NOT the normal way of
paying the tithe. The
tithe was normally taken
to the Levites to go INTO
THEIR CITIES, where they
lived.

Garyarnold
What's all these up. Did you really type this? This is worse than what one of my friends would call eisegesis. This is terrible. Did anyone care to read up those passages gary is talking about? Or they're so happy gary's making a point? You've lied again gary. Lying is of the devil, the Father of lies/liars. You can repent.

Image123 said, "You've lied again gary. Lying is of the devil, the Father of lies/liars. You can repent."

I'm not the liar, Image123, NOR am I the ignorant one here.

Yes , but as I said, the
word YOU in that verse is
being spoken to the
priests.

Malachi 1v1 the burden of the word of the Lord TO ISRAEL by Malachi.
Matthew 11v7,10 Jesus began to say unto THE MULTITUDES. . . This is he of whom it is written, Behold I send my messenger.
Jesus addressed Malachi 3 to multitudeS not just priests. The promise of John was not only to priests. The words of God are not the exclusive preserve of any.

The
Word doesn't say ALL
sons of Jacob.
The priests had ROBBED
God. The Word doesn't
say anyone WITHHELD
paying or didn't pay the
Tithe.

Malachi 3v9 ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have ROBBED me, EVEN THIS WHOLE NATION.

Still on gary

You bring up Nehemiah
13v12 but don't seem to
understand what is going
on here. Verse 10 shows
the ROBBING GOD of the
tithe. The Levites had
taken the portion of the
tithe THEY NEEDED FOR
THEMSELVES TO LIVE ON
and the priests stole it.

Where is all these story in your bible?
Nehemiah 13v10 And I perceived that the portion of the Levites had not been given them: for the Levites and the singers, that did the work, were fled every one to his field.
Not even a mention of the word 'tithe'. Half truths are damning.

Image123, you just don't get it.

You said, "Malachi 3v9 ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have ROBBED me, EVEN THIS WHOLE NATION."

EVEN THIS WHOLE NATION WAS ROBBED.  You have robbed me, even this whole nation.  That doesn't mean the whole nation robbed God, it means the whole nation was robbed.  How was the whole nation robbed?  By the closing of the Temple because the priests had taken the Levites food from the tithe.

Malachi says take all the tithes to the storehouse.  ONLY THE PRIESTS were allowed to take the tithes to the storehouse.  NOT the people.  How could Malachi be telling the PEOPLE to take the tithes to the storehouse?

Hebrews 7:5 (KJV)
5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Hebrews 10:1 (KJV)
1For the LAW having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.

Image123 said, "Where is all these story in your bible?"

Do I need to copy and paste Nehemiah 13 for you? Read and STUDY the whole chapter.

Like I earlier said, I've got very little amount of pearls to waste. Your twisting amazes me despite overwhelming evidence that Malachi addresses not just priests but the whole nation, the sons OF Jacob. I should be sleeping 'in my timezone' mr.

^^^Pastor Image123 "perhaps"

Aren't you guys tired on dancing in circles? Who are STEALING from the "Nation of Nigeria" TODAY? Pastors and Politicians(P2) Is it a coincidence they seem to work well together?

Sonny Okosuns "Liberation" comes to mind, the Nigerian people must be liberated just like most right thinking Americans have now woken up from this kinds of SCAMS though there's still work to do.

God will help us against these P*I*M*P*S

garyarnold:

Image123, you just don't get it.

You said, "Malachi 3v9 ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have ROBBED me, EVEN THIS WHOLE NATION."

EVEN THIS WHOLE NATION WAS ROBBED.  You have robbed me, even this whole nation.  That doesn't mean the whole nation robbed God, it means the whole nation was robbed.

@Gary, your interpretation is incorrect - and factually wrong. You have tended to repeat that fallacy now that it becomes necessary to just stand up to it and ask you to please stop recycling that obviously dubious interpretation. Your eisegesis is one of the reasons why I noted that a whole lot of anti-tithing arguments are misinformation that are often recycled in desperate attempts to muddy the waters and complicate simple issues.

The sense in Malachi 3:9 is clear: "You have robbed. . ." WHO? The answer is right there before your eyes in that verse: ME! The sense is that the whole nation robbed God - it is not the other way round as you put it ['the whole nation was robbed']: that is just denying the plain statement of that verse.

It was NOT the whole nation that was robbed, for the sense was that they (the whole nation) robbed God (Mal. 3:9 - "for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation". The "me" does not represent the whole nation - it rather represents God; and the "ye" stands for the whole nation.

Other English translations or versions (apart from the KJV) will yield the same basic sense as above on Malachi 3:9 -

[list][li]'You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me' - NIV[/li][/list]

[list][li]'You are under a curse, for your whole nation has been cheating me' - NLT[/li][/list]

[list][li]'You are suffering under a curse, yet you—the whole nation—are [still] robbing Me' - HCSB[/li][/list]

However, rather than quote a whole range of versions on that verse for you, the sense is already made clear in verse 8, where God lays it bare: "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me." This verse is the foundation for the statement in verse 9 where God reiterates that the whole nation had robbed Him. There is no reason to get desperate and dishonet in recycling your fallacy that it was the whole nation that was robbed.

garyarnold:

How was the whole nation robbed?  By the closing of the Temple because the priests had taken the Levites food from the tithe.

Where do you find this fib or taradiddle in the Bible? Are you on errand to introduce your own fallacy and pass it off as Scripture? It is even more pathetic to read the same you who had argued that it was GOD who was robbed -

[list]

garyarnold:

The PRIESTS robbed God of the offerings. See Malachi 1.

The PRIESTS robbed God of the tithe. See Nehemiah 13.

[/list]
. . . so how come you now turn round to argue that "the whole nation was robbed"??

garyarnold:

Malachi says take all the tithes to the storehouse.  ONLY THE PRIESTS were allowed to take the tithes to the storehouse.  NOT the people.  How could Malachi be telling the PEOPLE to take the tithes to the storehouse?

First, Malachi was declaring God's prophetic utterances - in other words, it was God Himself who asked Israel to take the tithes to the storehouse.

Second, the "storehouse" is nowhere stipulated in the Law - it was introduced long after Moses! It was Hezekiah who commanded that such chambers be built to store the tithes and offerings in the house of the LORD (2 Chron. 31:11-12). This is an excellent example to show that not everything one reads about tithes in the OT were based on the Law of Moses; and the "storehouse" in Malachi 3 is certainly not based on the Law, yet God did not reject it!

Third, the PEOPLE indeed were to bring the tithes and offerings to the storehouse, to the house of the LORD, for that is what that verse says, and is confirmed in Nehemiah 10:39 -

[list]'For the children of Israel and the children of Levi shall bring the offering of the corn, of the new wine, and the oil, unto the chambers, where are the vessels of the sanctuary, and the priests that minister, and the porters, and the singers: and we will not forsake the house of our God.'[/list]

This is what is known as a collective responsibility - rather than outline specifications, Malachi 3:10 simple and concisely stated what ALL Israel understood was their responsibility according to Neh. 10:39. In verse 38, the Levites were to bring the tithe of the tithes to the chambers; but in verse 39, the children of Israel and the children of Levi were to bring these offerings to the chambers! The difference is that when the children of Israel borught their offerings to the chambers at the house of the LORD, the priests that minister were standing there, ready to receive Israel's into the chambers.

When you obfuscate issues on any subject and assume that your fellow discussants are "ignorant", you simply have no clue what damage you make of your own dubious arguments and desperate eisegesis! Please quit recycling your fallacies.

aletheia:

Do we really need to address this all over again? Are you asserting that in NT there was no currency of exchange except mint and cumin? How about this?

Mark 12:15  Shall we give, or shall we not give? But he, knowing their hypocrisy, said unto them, Why tempt ye me? bring me a penny, that I may see it.

Since there existed money then, why were the Pharisees (those great sticklers for everything pertaining to the Law) tithing their garden herbs? Why didn't they just tithe denarii or shekels as the case may be?

Since the Pharisees did not tithe money but agricultural produce as required by the Law, why are you "tithing"
money (not commanded in the Law) instead of agricultural produce.

Mr. Aletheia,

That was a very nice write-up there, but you see, when quoting scriptures it is expedient of a true christian to do so based on the truth founded in study of God's word through biblical references and not the personal convictions of a man's heart because every man's way would want to seem right in his own eyes, whereas the heart of man is corrupt and desperately wicked. That said i continue:

You said, if i may understand you any better, that since Jesus spake of the Pharisees of giving a tenth of their spices - mints and cummins it therefore means the tithing according to the law (ma'aser terumah) was of herbs and agricultural produce, but is that really a wholistic truth?, ok lets go back to the scriptures and buttress this issue i.e: the tithing during the mosaic era:

Lev 27:30

30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's; it is holy to the Lord.AMP

32 And all the tithe of the herd or of the[b] flock[/b], whatever passes under the herdsman's staff [by means of which each tenth animal as it passes through a small door is selected and marked], the tenth shall be holy to the Lord.

Now pls take sentiments aside and lets be convicted of simple scriptures, the few modes of paying tithes from this portion of the bible are

- Tithes of the seed of the land
- Tithes of the fruit of the tree
- Tithes of the herd
- Tithes of the flock

So you see, tithing even according to the law of moses were more than just giving mints and cummins, what you and I should rather take a time to understand is: WHAT WAS JESUS TRYING TO TEACH THERE WHEN HE USED THAT EXAMPLE?

Was Jesus against Tithing in that scripture, NO! In my PoV,He was actually against the hypocrites (Pharisees) who tithed at the expense of other important issues of the law, Jesus was trying to rebuke them of their sternness to keeping little matters of the mosaic law (tithe) and the expense of important ones (mercy, faithfulness and justice).

I dont subscribe to those preaching that those who dont tithe will make their way to hell, but rather i feel/believe/preach that tithing(which is a form of giving) is an act of honouring God.

QUOTE ME!