| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by budaatum: 12:11am On Feb 02, 2019 |
MuttleyLaff:
They knew Yahweh alright budaatum, but didnt know Yahweh in the context of what the name means, entails and/or what it is all about They "knew Yahweh" but "didnt know Yahweh in context"  If I claim to know Yahweh but don't know Yahweh in context, would you not claim I don't know Yahweh at all? And if I don't know Yahweh in context please explain to me how I'd different Yahweh's voice from me just tripping? MuttleyLaff, switch on your brain please, I beg you! You are tripping! |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by MuttleyLaff: 12:15am On Feb 02, 2019 |
budaatum:
They "knew Yahweh" but "didnt know Yahweh in context"
If I claim to know Yahweh but don't know Yahweh in context, would you not claim I don't know Yahweh at all? And if I don't know Yahweh in context please explain to me how I'd different Yahweh's voice from me just tripping?
MuttleyLaff, switch on your brain please, I beg you! You are tripping! OK |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by JujuSugar(f): 12:37am On Feb 02, 2019 |
@MuttleyLaff, whilst awaiting your response, I went ahead to refresh my knowledge on the Jephthah story as well. Meanwhile, I've just gone through your entire post... [img] https://media./images/4b7128dd8a2410de0eec35afee295939/tenor.gif[/img] Not saying you are right or wrong but I applaud the effort, Sir Muttley. You have made us both spend roughly the whole day dragging on an issue that's not meant to be dragged in the first place. Now let me examine your response.... MuttleyLaff:
Judges 11:31, as a matter of fact and truth, is a coded verse, wrapping up or encompassing two vows Really? Let's see... MuttleyLaff:
Vow #1:
"whatsoever comes forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S"
Vow #2:
"and I will offer it up for a burnt offering." Ok, very good so far.... MuttleyLaff:
Referring to Vow #1:
Whatsoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me shall surely be the LORD'S (i.e. will be given over to God devoted to service)
Referring to Vow #2:
Better still, or if it happens to be an IT (i.e. an animal AND NOT a human being) then I will offer IT, the animal up for a burnt offering
This will be and/or serve as a bonus.
[img] https://media1./images/12c185c61809a5c6aa7606506cebca16/tenor.gif[/img] Not so fast, Muttley... MuttleyLaff:
Whatsoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me shall surely be the LORD'S MuttleyLaff:
Better still, or if it happens to be an IT..... Two things here: 1) When you hear the word "whatsoever", what springs to your mind? 2) Muttley, I'm already disoriented from this rollercoaster of scripture washing and distortion you're subjecting me to here. The passage clearly said " whatsoever comes forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S AND I will offer it up as a burnt offering.". So, pray tell, where are you getting this "If it happens to be an animal..." bit? This statement or anything at all that looks like it cannot be found in the verse. Lol @ this devious insertion of yours. Come to think of it, aren't you even committing a sin here, Muttley? Revelation 22: 18-19Anyways, back to the topic. Muttley, let me tell you something... It’s clear as a sunny day, Jephthah made a barbecue from his daughter, his only child. Look very well at what the text says:
Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah ... And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.... And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child.... And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back. And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth.... And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed.- Judges 11:29-40
He sacrificed her, Muttley. He cut her throat, like a sheep, and burned her body as an offering to Yahweh. By "bewailing her virginity," what is meant is that she is to mourn the fact that she will never bear children, never fulfilling the one purpose that women in that society had; the one thing a woman had which was seen to have any value (non-virgins were treated as damaged goods because a man couldn't be absolutely certain that any baby she had was his unless he knew she hadn't slept with anyone else). Understand, human sacrifice was not forbidden. Sacrifice to other gods was forbidden. Yahweh didn't find favor with Abraham because he didn't sacrifice his son — he found favor with Abraham because Abraham proved he was going to do it (see Genesis 22:1–19). We see this in multiple places throughout the Old Testament: a) In the Ten Commandments in Exodus 34 (the actual Ten Commandments which were written on the stone tablets and described as such in the Bible — the ones that talk about not offering yeast with a blood sacrifice or boiling baby goats in their mothers' milk — not the spoken commands issued at the base of Mount Sinai in Exodus 20 that we are more familiar with), God instructs that firstborn sons belong to him, along with the firstborn of one's livestock. We see this also in Exodus 22:29–30. b) Samuel hacks King Agag of Amalek to pieces before the Lord in 1 Samuel 15. King Saul lost favor in the eyes of Yahweh because, when ordered by Yahweh (through Samuel) to kill the Amalekites - every man, woman, and child, and all the livestock - while Saul did kill the Amalekites, down to the last child, he initially spared their king and kept some of the Amalekites' animals alive to be sacrificed at the temple instead of killing them all on the spot. c) In 1 Kings chapter 13, 2 Kings chapter 23, and 2 Chronicles chapter 34, it is documented that King Josiah "did what was right in the eyes of the Lord" by smashing idols and graven images to other gods and burning their priests on their own altars d) In 2 Samuel 21, God is appeased to end a famine when David has two of Saul's sons and five of his grandsons killed. e) In Numbers 31, Yahweh orders Moses to order the slaughter of the Midianites. All of the men are killed, and Moses is angered to learn that women and young children were kept alive and orders them killed as well — except for virgin girls who are to be divided among the army as war spoils (sex slaves). Beginning in verse 25, Yahweh tells Moses how to divide the spoils, including the girls, who are listed alongside livestock to be distributed. A portion of each type of livestock is to be set aside to be sacrificed to Yahweh, including 32 of the surviving girls, as "heave offerings." Even passages explicitly condemning human sacrifice (such as Leviticus 18:21 and 20:2) do so in the context of describing those sacrifices being made to other gods (usually Molech). Other members of the Canaanite pantheon, such as Baal and Chemosh, make appearances throughout the Old Testament — each of the nations had a national deity, with Chemosh being the god of the Moabites (for example) and Yahweh being the god of the Israelites, and depending on the fortunes of war between these nations one could begin to see the others' god as being more powerful. The Bible describes a battle where the Israelites are forced to retreat because the Moabite king sacrifices his son to Chemosh and gets a supernatural boost as a result (2 Kings 3:26–27). Human sacrifice was common throughout the region, and women were regarded as cattle. It was a savage, barbaric time, Muttley. Cc. budaatum, frank317, Dantedasz, CreepyBlackpool, LordReed, CodeTemplarPermit me to sign off now, Its way past my bedtime  . Good night, MuttleyLaff 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by CodeTemplar: 2:20am On Feb 02, 2019 |
JujuSugar:
@MuttleyLaff, whilst awaiting your response, I went ahead to refresh my knowledge on the Jephthah story as well. Meanwhile, I've just gone through your entire post...
[img]https://media./images/4b7128dd8a2410de0eec35afee295939/tenor.gif[/img]
Not saying you are right or wrong but I applaud the effort, Sir Muttley. You have made us both spend roughly the whole day dragging on an issue that's not meant to be dragged in the first place. Now let me examine your response....
Really? Let's see...
Ok, very good so far....
[img]https://media1./images/12c185c61809a5c6aa7606506cebca16/tenor.gif[/img]
Not so fast, Muttley...
Two things here:
1) When you hear the word "whatsoever", what springs to your mind?
2) Muttley, I'm already disoriented from this rollercoaster of scripture washing and distortion you're subjecting me to here. The passage clearly said "whatsoever comes forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S AND I will offer it up as a burnt offering.". So, pray tell, where are you getting this "If it happens to be an animal..." bit? This statement or anything at all that looks like it cannot be found in the verse. Lol @ this devious insertion of yours. Come to think of it, aren't you even committing a sin here, Muttley?
Revelation 22: 18-19
Anyways, back to the topic. Muttley, let me tell you something...
It’s clear as a sunny day, Jephthah made a barbecue from his daughter, his only child.
Look very well at what the text says:
Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah ... And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.... And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child.... And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back. And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth.... And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed.
- Judges 11:29-40
He sacrificed her, Muttley. He cut her throat, like a sheep, and burned her body as an offering to Yahweh.
By "bewailing her virginity," what is meant is that she is to mourn the fact that she will never bear children, never fulfilling the one purpose that women in that society had; the one thing a woman had which was seen to have any value (non-virgins were treated as damaged goods because a man couldn't be absolutely certain that any baby she had was his unless he knew she hadn't slept with anyone else).
Understand, human sacrifice was not forbidden. Sacrifice to other gods was forbidden. Yahweh didn't find favor with Abraham because he didn't sacrifice his son — he found favor with Abraham because Abraham proved he was going to do it (see Genesis 22:1–19).
We see this in multiple places throughout the Old Testament:
a) In the Ten Commandments in Exodus 34 (the actual Ten Commandments which were written on the stone tablets and described as such in the Bible — the ones that talk about not offering yeast with a blood sacrifice or boiling baby goats in their mothers' milk — not the spoken commands issued at the base of Mount Sinai in Exodus 20 that we are more familiar with), God instructs that firstborn sons belong to him, along with the firstborn of one's livestock. We see this also in Exodus 22:29–30.
b) Samuel hacks King Agag of Amalek to pieces before the Lord in 1 Samuel 15. King Saul lost favor in the eyes of Yahweh because, when ordered by Yahweh (through Samuel) to kill the Amalekites - every man, woman, and child, and all the livestock - while Saul did kill the Amalekites, down to the last child, he initially spared their king and kept some of the Amalekites' animals alive to be sacrificed at the temple instead of killing them all on the spot.
c) In 1 Kings chapter 13, 2 Kings chapter 23, and 2 Chronicles chapter 34, it is documented that King Josiah "did what was right in the eyes of the Lord" by smashing idols and graven images to other gods and burning their priests on their own altars
d) In 2 Samuel 21, God is appeased to end a famine when David has two of Saul's sons and five of his grandsons killed.
e) In Numbers 31, Yahweh orders Moses to order the slaughter of the Midianites. All of the men are killed, and Moses is angered to learn that women and young children were kept alive and orders them killed as well — except for virgin girls who are to be divided among the army as war spoils (sex slaves). Beginning in verse 25, Yahweh tells Moses how to divide the spoils, including the girls, who are listed alongside livestock to be distributed. A portion of each type of livestock is to be set aside to be sacrificed to Yahweh, including 32 of the surviving girls, as "heave offerings."
Even passages explicitly condemning human sacrifice (such as Leviticus 18:21 and 20:2) do so in the context of describing those sacrifices being made to other gods (usually Molech). Other members of the Canaanite pantheon, such as Baal and Chemosh, make appearances throughout the Old Testament — each of the nations had a national deity, with Chemosh being the god of the Moabites (for example) and Yahweh being the god of the Israelites, and depending on the fortunes of war between these nations one could begin to see the others' god as being more powerful. The Bible describes a battle where the Israelites are forced to retreat because the Moabite king sacrifices his son to Chemosh and gets a supernatural boost as a result (2 Kings 3:26–27).
Human sacrifice was common throughout the region, and women were regarded as cattle. It was a savage, barbaric time, Muttley.
CodeTemplar
Permit me to sign off now, Its way past my bedtime .
Good night Stop mentioning me in your arguments since you can't make reasonable conclusions. I know according to you God is to blame for all your actions since He knew you would type that to offend someone but still went ahead to let you do it by creating and sustaining you. By the way was it recorded that Jephthah killed the said daughter as a burnt sacrifice by cutting her throat? Since God already knows your answer and control it please don't bother replying me, I will get your answers from Him. 2 Likes |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by Dantedasz(m): 9:03am On Feb 02, 2019 |
JujuSugar:
@MuttleyLaff, whilst awaiting your response, I went ahead to refresh my knowledge on the Jephthah story as well. Meanwhile, I've just gone through your entire post...
[img]https://media./images/4b7128dd8a2410de0eec35afee295939/tenor.gif[/img]
Not saying you are right or wrong but I applaud the effort, Sir Muttley. You have made us both spend roughly the whole day dragging on an issue that's not meant to be dragged in the first place. Now let me examine your response....
Really? Let's see...
Ok, very good so far....
[img]https://media1./images/12c185c61809a5c6aa7606506cebca16/tenor.gif[/img]
Not so fast, Muttley...
Two things here:
1) When you hear the word "whatsoever", what springs to your mind?
2) Muttley, I'm already disoriented from this rollercoaster of scripture washing and distortion you're subjecting me to here. The passage clearly said "whatsoever comes forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S AND I will offer it up as a burnt offering.". So, pray tell, where are you getting this "If it happens to be an animal..." bit? This statement or anything at all that looks like it cannot be found in the verse. Lol @ this devious insertion of yours. Come to think of it, aren't you even committing a sin here, Muttley?
Revelation 22: 18-19
Anyways, back to the topic. Muttley, let me tell you something...
It’s clear as a sunny day, Jephthah made a barbecue from his daughter, his only child.
Look very well at what the text says:
Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah ... And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.... And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child.... And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back. And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth.... And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed.
- Judges 11:29-40
He sacrificed her, Muttley. He cut her throat, like a sheep, and burned her body as an offering to Yahweh.
By "bewailing her virginity," what is meant is that she is to mourn the fact that she will never bear children, never fulfilling the one purpose that women in that society had; the one thing a woman had which was seen to have any value (non-virgins were treated as damaged goods because a man couldn't be absolutely certain that any baby she had was his unless he knew she hadn't slept with anyone else).
Understand, human sacrifice was not forbidden. Sacrifice to other gods was forbidden. Yahweh didn't find favor with Abraham because he didn't sacrifice his son — he found favor with Abraham because Abraham proved he was going to do it (see Genesis 22:1–19).
We see this in multiple places throughout the Old Testament:
a) In the Ten Commandments in Exodus 34 (the actual Ten Commandments which were written on the stone tablets and described as such in the Bible — the ones that talk about not offering yeast with a blood sacrifice or boiling baby goats in their mothers' milk — not the spoken commands issued at the base of Mount Sinai in Exodus 20 that we are more familiar with), God instructs that firstborn sons belong to him, along with the firstborn of one's livestock. We see this also in Exodus 22:29–30.
b) Samuel hacks King Agag of Amalek to pieces before the Lord in 1 Samuel 15. King Saul lost favor in the eyes of Yahweh because, when ordered by Yahweh (through Samuel) to kill the Amalekites - every man, woman, and child, and all the livestock - while Saul did kill the Amalekites, down to the last child, he initially spared their king and kept some of the Amalekites' animals alive to be sacrificed at the temple instead of killing them all on the spot.
c) In 1 Kings chapter 13, 2 Kings chapter 23, and 2 Chronicles chapter 34, it is documented that King Josiah "did what was right in the eyes of the Lord" by smashing idols and graven images to other gods and burning their priests on their own altars
d) In 2 Samuel 21, God is appeased to end a famine when David has two of Saul's sons and five of his grandsons killed.
e) In Numbers 31, Yahweh orders Moses to order the slaughter of the Midianites. All of the men are killed, and Moses is angered to learn that women and young children were kept alive and orders them killed as well — except for virgin girls who are to be divided among the army as war spoils (sex slaves). Beginning in verse 25, Yahweh tells Moses how to divide the spoils, including the girls, who are listed alongside livestock to be distributed. A portion of each type of livestock is to be set aside to be sacrificed to Yahweh, including 32 of the surviving girls, as "heave offerings."
Even passages explicitly condemning human sacrifice (such as Leviticus 18:21 and 20:2) do so in the context of describing those sacrifices being made to other gods (usually Molech). Other members of the Canaanite pantheon, such as Baal and Chemosh, make appearances throughout the Old Testament — each of the nations had a national deity, with Chemosh being the god of the Moabites (for example) and Yahweh being the god of the Israelites, and depending on the fortunes of war between these nations one could begin to see the others' god as being more powerful. The Bible describes a battle where the Israelites are forced to retreat because the Moabite king sacrifices his son to Chemosh and gets a supernatural boost as a result (2 Kings 3:26–27).
Human sacrifice was common throughout the region, and women were regarded as cattle. It was a savage, barbaric time, Muttley.
Cc. budaatum, frank317, Dantedasz, CreepyBlackpool, LordReed, CodeTemplar
Permit me to sign off now, Its way past my bedtime .
Good night, MuttleyLaff Good job dear,but a total waste of time. The people you are debating are known on these boards for never being logical. They call red black as long as it suits their agenda and the agenda of their religious pamphlet. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by LordReed(m): 9:39am On Feb 02, 2019 |
@MuttleyLaff
You were asking how the god could test Abraham without requiring child sacrifice, remember Frodo and the Ring in Lord of the Rings? Now there's a properly written tale of testing and sacrifice. The Ring became preciousssss to Frodo and he struggled at the last point to give it up yet he made the journey to the mountain of sacrifice and had every intention of giving it up even though he struggled.
LOTR > bible any day of the week including sundays and public holidays. LMFAO! |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by MuttleyLaff: 9:46am On Feb 02, 2019 |
LordReed:
@MuttleyLaff
You were asking how the god could test Abraham without requiring child sacrifice, remember Frodo and the Ring in Lord of the Rings? Now there's a properly written tale of testing and sacrifice. The Ring became preciousssss to Frodo and he struggled at the last point to give it up yet he made the journey to the mountain of sacrifice and had every intention of giving it up even though he struggled.
LOTR > bible any day of the week including sundays and public holidays. LMFAO! I really think you've mistaken my moniker for somebody's else and incorrectly tried linking me with that comment LordReed so please kindly reproduce here verbatim what you alledge me asking, as I am not following or understanding. 1 Like |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by mujahid777(m): 10:14am On Feb 02, 2019 |
The lord once told me to rape my 3 months old child...thou he stopped me when I was just about doing it.No,this wasn't a test of my psychopathy,but a test of my obedience. Don't get me wrong.My lord supposedly finds such acts abominable,but he was happy with me nevertheless. The lord was greatly pleased with this my singular act of righteousness and promised to bless me without bounds Isn't my lord a wonderful lord  3 Likes |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by LordReed(m): 10:42am On Feb 02, 2019 |
JujuSugar:
Human sacrifice was common throughout the region, and women were regarded as cattle. It was a savage, barbaric time, Muttley.
You hit the nail on the head sistah. 1 Like |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by LordReed(m): 10:44am On Feb 02, 2019 |
MuttleyLaff:
I really think you've mistaken my moniker for somebody's else and incorrectly tried linking me with that comment LordReed so please kindly reproduce here verbatim what you alledge me asking, as I am not following or understanding. Ok it wasn't you sorry. LOTR > Bible still. LOL 1 Like |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by sonmvayina(m): 3:27pm On Feb 02, 2019 |
OnPointMan:
What about the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Jesus is a roman creation to deceive and mock the creator of all.. Christianity is just rebranded paganism from babylon.. God detest human sacrifice.. |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by sonmvayina(m): 3:32pm On Feb 02, 2019 |
OnPointMan:
What about the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross. Is that how a sacrifice is performed?. Abi you no dey watch home video... The priest cuts the neck and blood flows.. |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by OnPointMan(m): 4:39pm On Feb 02, 2019 |
sonmvayina:
Jesus is a roman creation to deceive and mock the creator of all.. Christianity is just rebranded paganism from babylon.. God detest human sacrifice.. How did you come about this ? 1 Like |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by sonmvayina(m): 8:05pm On Feb 02, 2019 |
 OnPointMan:
How did you come about this ? When in doubt "go to the source"... Check their history.. Judaism is different from Christianity... Christianity came into existence at the council of Nicea... After they have argued for almost 2 years.. The added their scripture at the end of the Jewish one to deceive people.. They are different religions |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by bloodofthelamb(m): 8:18pm On Feb 02, 2019 |
JujuSugar:
@MuttleyLaff, whilst awaiting your response, I went ahead to refresh my knowledge on the Jephthah story as well. Meanwhile, I've just gone through your entire post...
[img]https://media./images/4b7128dd8a2410de0eec35afee295939/tenor.gif[/img]
Not saying you are right or wrong but I applaud the effort, Sir Muttley. You have made us both spend roughly the whole day dragging on an issue that's not meant to be dragged in the first place. Now let me examine your response....
Really? Let's see...
Ok, very good so far....
[img]https://media1./images/12c185c61809a5c6aa7606506cebca16/tenor.gif[/img]
Not so fast, Muttley...
Two things here:
1) When you hear the word "whatsoever", what springs to your mind?
2) Muttley, I'm already disoriented from this rollercoaster of scripture washing and distortion you're subjecting me to here. The passage clearly said "whatsoever comes forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S AND I will offer it up as a burnt offering.". So, pray tell, where are you getting this "If it happens to be an animal..." bit? This statement or anything at all that looks like it cannot be found in the verse. Lol @ this devious insertion of yours. Come to think of it, aren't you even committing a sin here, Muttley?
Revelation 22: 18-19
Anyways, back to the topic. Muttley, let me tell you something...
It’s clear as a sunny day, Jephthah made a barbecue from his daughter, his only child.
Look very well at what the text says:
Then the Spirit of the LORD came upon Jephthah ... And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands, Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering. So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.... And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only child.... And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back. And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth.... And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed.
- Judges 11:29-40
He sacrificed her, Muttley. He cut her throat, like a sheep, and burned her body as an offering to Yahweh.
By "bewailing her virginity," what is meant is that she is to mourn the fact that she will never bear children, never fulfilling the one purpose that women in that society had; the one thing a woman had which was seen to have any value (non-virgins were treated as damaged goods because a man couldn't be absolutely certain that any baby she had was his unless he knew she hadn't slept with anyone else).
Understand, human sacrifice was not forbidden. Sacrifice to other gods was forbidden. Yahweh didn't find favor with Abraham because he didn't sacrifice his son — he found favor with Abraham because Abraham proved he was going to do it (see Genesis 22:1–19).
We see this in multiple places throughout the Old Testament:
a) In the Ten Commandments in Exodus 34 (the actual Ten Commandments which were written on the stone tablets and described as such in the Bible — the ones that talk about not offering yeast with a blood sacrifice or boiling baby goats in their mothers' milk — not the spoken commands issued at the base of Mount Sinai in Exodus 20 that we are more familiar with), God instructs that firstborn sons belong to him, along with the firstborn of one's livestock. We see this also in Exodus 22:29–30.
b) Samuel hacks King Agag of Amalek to pieces before the Lord in 1 Samuel 15. King Saul lost favor in the eyes of Yahweh because, when ordered by Yahweh (through Samuel) to kill the Amalekites - every man, woman, and child, and all the livestock - while Saul did kill the Amalekites, down to the last child, he initially spared their king and kept some of the Amalekites' animals alive to be sacrificed at the temple instead of killing them all on the spot.
c) In 1 Kings chapter 13, 2 Kings chapter 23, and 2 Chronicles chapter 34, it is documented that King Josiah "did what was right in the eyes of the Lord" by smashing idols and graven images to other gods and burning their priests on their own altars
d) In 2 Samuel 21, God is appeased to end a famine when David has two of Saul's sons and five of his grandsons killed.
e) In Numbers 31, Yahweh orders Moses to order the slaughter of the Midianites. All of the men are killed, and Moses is angered to learn that women and young children were kept alive and orders them killed as well — except for virgin girls who are to be divided among the army as war spoils (sex slaves). Beginning in verse 25, Yahweh tells Moses how to divide the spoils, including the girls, who are listed alongside livestock to be distributed. A portion of each type of livestock is to be set aside to be sacrificed to Yahweh, including 32 of the surviving girls, as "heave offerings."
Even passages explicitly condemning human sacrifice (such as Leviticus 18:21 and 20:2) do so in the context of describing those sacrifices being made to other gods (usually Molech). Other members of the Canaanite pantheon, such as Baal and Chemosh, make appearances throughout the Old Testament — each of the nations had a national deity, with Chemosh being the god of the Moabites (for example) and Yahweh being the god of the Israelites, and depending on the fortunes of war between these nations one could begin to see the others' god as being more powerful. The Bible describes a battle where the Israelites are forced to retreat because the Moabite king sacrifices his son to Chemosh and gets a supernatural boost as a result (2 Kings 3:26–27).
Human sacrifice was common throughout the region, and women were regarded as cattle. It was a savage, barbaric time, Muttley.
Cc. budaatum, frank317, Dantedasz, CreepyBlackpool, LordReed, CodeTemplar
Permit me to sign off now, Its way past my bedtime .
Good night, MuttleyLaff If you are still arguing that Jepthah use her daughter as a burnt offering like a sheep after the beautiful explanation of MuttleyLaff, then you are being dishonest to your self. It crystal clear that Jepthah never used her daughter for a burnt offering, if you read the whole chapter in context. Apostle Paul admonishes us to present our body as a living sacrifice to the Lord. Does it mean we are to burn ourselves up for sacrifice? We know what Apostle Paul means, only the deceitful ones will think otherwise. 2 Likes |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by JujuSugar(f): 9:53pm On Feb 02, 2019 |
bloodofthelamb:
If you are still arguing that Jepthah use her daughter as a burnt offering like a sheep after the beautiful explanation of MuttleyLaff, then you are being dishonest to your self. It crystal clear that Jepthah never used her daughter for a burnt offering, if you read the whole chapter in context.
Apostle Paul admonishes us to present our body as a living sacrifice to the Lord. Does it mean we are to burn ourselves up for sacrifice? We know what Apostle Paul means, only the deceitful ones will think otherwise. Thanks for quoting me without even addressing any of the points I brought up. Classic theist move. |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by budaatum: 6:54am On Feb 03, 2019 |
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| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by MuttleyLaff: 9:49am On Feb 03, 2019 |
budaatum:
h t tps://youtu.be/Pt66kbYmXXk I always thoroughly enjoy nonstamp' videos, they dont as usual stop being very satirically entertaining and you find nonstampcollector trolling other people's channel because they are pointing out the gaping holes in his monitised videos The problem here is people are so blinkered by the trees, that they can't because of the trees, see the woods, that is why they are so fixated on the impression that Jephthah barbecued his daughter and other Abraham-Isaac-God misgivings people like frank317, Dantedasz, CreepyBlackpool, LordReed et al might have JujuSugar:
Thanks for quoting me without even addressing any of the points I brought up. Classic theist move. I said it before, that, dont you know that when you peer into the dark, you ought be careful, because the dark looks back I earlier told you JujuSugar, that I can and will take you down pitch dark, you dont really want to go down to. I also outrightly, let out that, right there, is an " or", I didnt mention, that's before the "if" in Judges 11:31b. JujuSugar, I even advised you to go research or check out the meaning of " conjunctive waw" because that was all I was prepared to say, and I gave the reason for that being, anything more than what I've already and so far shared, is going to be information overload and that we both know what information overload means, so after all that, it baffles me, what all this " thanks for quoting me without even addressing any of the points I brought up. Classic theist move." talk to bloodofthelamb is all about. I also did mention that, it's not now, its not today, its not yesterday, it's not years before, I've been taken part, in talking about Jephthah, and that's why I said earlier that this Jephthah controversy has been flogged enough times over and long time laid to rest many years ago, on nairaland, and so wondering why, some are still tearing hairs out and getting hard-ons over it. I've been there, sold it, done it and have the " Jephthah controversy" souvenir t-shirt I bought that reminds me of the skirmish(es). If you want to be combative JujuSugar, why not wisely and carefully, pick battles you know you can fight fair and square. Huh? JujuSugar, you and I know our many little secrets, and one of them, as you've skillfully demonstrated and shown here, is that, as for this Jephthah controversy, you barely can tie shoes, on your own. You dont owe me an explanation for the deceitful and monumental nonsense you put on there, that you've got undue and undeserved accolades from. The credit attributed to you is not rightfully yours, and you know it. You didnt, except for ..., earn anything, to deserve the praises thrown at you by Dantedasz, LordReed and the others you pulled the wool over their eyes with but its all cool, as let's just put it simply like this, the leopard never changes its spots and budaatum can be more forgiving than you can imagine cc CodeTemplar, bloodofthelamb 1 Like |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by JujuSugar(f): 12:23pm On Feb 03, 2019 |
MuttleyLaff:
I earlier told you JujSugar, that I can and will take you down pitch dark, you dont really want to go down to. I also outrightly, let out that, right there, is an "or", I didnt mention, that's before the "if" in Judges 11:31b. JujuSugar, I even advised you to go research or check out the meaning of "conjunctive waw" because that was all I was prepared to say, and I gave the reason for that being, anything more than what I've already and so far shared, is going to be information overload and that we both know what information overload means, so after all that, it baffles me, what all this "thanks for quoting me without even addressing any of the points I brought up. Classic theist move." talk to bloodofthelamb is all about.
I also did mention that, it's not now, its not today, its not yesterday, it's not years before, I've been taken part, in talking about Jephthah, and that's why I said earlier that this Jephthah controversy has been flogged enough times over and long time laid to rest many years ago, on nairaland, and so wondering why, some are still tearing hairs out and getting hard-ons over it. I've been there, sold it, done it and have the "Jephthah controversy" souvenir t-shirt I bought that reminds me of the skirmish(es).
If you want to be combative JujuSugar, why not wisely and carefully, pick battles you know you can fight fair and square. Huh?
JujuSugar, you and I know our many little secrets, and one of them, as you've demonstrated here, is that, as for this Jephthah controversy, you barely can tie shoes, on your own.
You dont owe me an explanation for the deceitful and monumental nonsense you put on there, that you've got undue and undeserved accolades from. The credit attributed to you is not rightfully yours, and you know it. You didnt, except for ..., earn anything, to deserve the praises thrown at you by Dantedasz, LordReed and the others you pulled the wool over their eyes with but its all cool, as let's just put it simply like this, the leopard never changes its spots and budaatum can be more forgiving than you can imagine
As Albert Einstein once said, Muttley: " To be an immaculate member of a flock of sheep, one must above all be a sheep" Should I be surprised or bothered that your lackeys Co.deTemp.lar & b.loodofthelamb give you your own accolades for all the pile of trash you've been writing? You know what they say about birds of the same feather.... MuttleyLaff, I've done my best to be as rational and critical as I possibly can on this issue. No matter how you twist it, mix it, wash it, rinse it, the truth cannot be avoided. I earlier told you JujSugar, that I can and will take you down pitch dark, you dont really want to go down to. I also outrightly, let out that, right there, is an "or", I didnt mention, that's before the "if" in Judges 11:31b. "Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering."Where, pray tell Mr. Muttley, is the "or"? I've cautioned you on this mischievious antics you employ to distort the truth and blur the lines between fact and fiction. You're not the author of the bible and no one is a baby here. As far as I'm concerned, you've exposed yourself as being dishonest because I fail to see why you can't argue directly Jephthah's story without trying to twist the story and insinuate that Jephthah wasn't thinking of a human being. You and your gang of brainwashed bandits can continue to deceive yourselves on the issue. Anyone with half a brain knows how bizarre the Jephthah story actually is. 1 Like |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by budaatum: 1:04pm On Feb 03, 2019 |
MuttleyLaff:
Lastly, there, up above is the concrete and scriptural evidence in Judges 11:39, that though there was a bit of delay in paying vow #1,
it eventually got paid when Jephthah's daughter after two months, gave herself up to her fate of a lifetime "seminary work" in God's presence or temple. This is the sort of lie you blind yourself with so you can't see. It also explains why you can't reason properly since you'd either write in such a way that you don't mean what you say, or twist other people's writing the way you've twisted scripture here. Verse 39 goes: After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin. First, what was his vow again, and where did he vow to send her to do seminary work muttley? Here's verse 40, From this comes the Israelite tradition that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite. Commemorate means, to recall and show respect for (someone or something).
"a wreath-laying ceremony to commemorate the war dead". I don't think there's anywhere in the Bible where it says "Thou must not lie to yourself", muttley, but it is advice worth considering. Your blindness is like that of one who chooses to cover one's eyes and not put on a light so one can stumble in darkness. You need to learn to be kinder to yourself. 1 Like 1 Share |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by LordReed(m): 3:45pm On Feb 03, 2019 |
MuttleyLaff
Please explain Jepthah's lament
And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.
vis a vis Hannah's reaction to giving Samuel up. 1 Like |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by MuttleyLaff: 3:57pm On Feb 03, 2019 |
LordReed:
MuttleyLaff
Please explain Jepthah's lament
And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot go back.
vis a vis Hannah's reaction to giving Samuel up. You must be a witch or winch, as is usually said by those in South South and South East. I have already explained Jephthah's lament in this post I am currently finishing up, and my gratitude to you, because you're more knowledgeable enough to use the correct or close to the actual word used in the original text than the " commemorate" budaatum preferred to used, though it's right but it waters down the import of what actually and apparently happened. Watch this space LordReed, I think I am 95% finished before posting my rebuttal to budaatum's post, that's if I dont get called away or get distracted from my Mac |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by budaatum: 4:22pm On Feb 03, 2019 |
MuttleyLaff:
the actual word used in the original text than the "commemorate" budaatum preferred to used,
Which original text are you referring to muttley? " Commemorate" was the word used in the NIV, and not buda's choice, and unless your claim is buda wrote it, you might want to take it up with it. The KJV uses "lament" which isn't too far off! |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by tintingz(m): 4:40pm On Feb 03, 2019 |
mujahid777:
The lord once told me to rape my 3 months old child...thou he stopped me when I was just about doing it.No,this wasn't a test of my psychopathy,but a test of my obedience.
Don't get me wrong.My lord supposedly finds such acts abominable,but he was happy with me nevertheless.
The lord was greatly pleased with this my singular act of righteousness and promised to bless me without bounds
Isn't my lord a wonderful lord LMAO.  |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by MuttleyLaff: 4:48pm On Feb 03, 2019 |
budaatum:
Which original text are you referring to muttley?
Commemorate" was the word used in the NIV, and not buda's choice unless your claim is buda wrote it! You might want to take it up with it. The KJV uses "lament" which isn't too far off! You'll soon find out budaatum..(edited out) |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by MuttleyLaff: 4:49pm On Feb 03, 2019 |
tintingz:
LMAO. I know, you'll think you've heard or seen it all |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by budaatum: 5:00pm On Feb 03, 2019 |
MuttleyLaff:
by the way, do you know anywhere or anyone that can give someone work in the social sciences fields please? The social sciences include, but are not limited to: anthropology, archaeology, communication studies, economics, history, human geography, jurisprudence, linguistics, political science, psychology, public health, and sociology. The term is also sometimes used to refer specifically to the field of sociology, the original "science of society", established in the 19th century. For a more detailed list of sub-disciplines within the social sciences see: Outline of social science.I'm worried about you muttley! |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by MuttleyLaff: 5:03pm On Feb 03, 2019 |
budaatum:
The social sciences include, but are not limited to: anthropology, archaeology, communication studies, economics, history, human geography, jurisprudence, linguistics, political science, psychology, public health, and sociology. The term is also sometimes used to refer specifically to the field of sociology, the original "science of society", established in the 19th century. For a more detailed list of sub-disciplines within the social sciences see: Outline of social science.
I'm worried about you muttley! Applied Social Sciences BSocSc (Hons), and stop mucking about if you know, no matter how small it might be, you can be of any help. |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by budaatum: 6:20pm On Feb 03, 2019 |
MuttleyLaff:
Applied Social Sciences BSocSc (Hons), and stop mucking about if you know, no matter how small it might be, you cant be of any help. Local authorities are always after social workers, if that's what you mean. Try their websites or jobscouk. |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by MuttleyLaff: 6:24pm On Feb 03, 2019 |
budaatum:
Local authorities are always after social workers, if that's what you mean. Try their websites or jobscouk. Thank you, if anything else and/or more, please message me asap. |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by MuttleyLaff: 9:24pm On Feb 03, 2019 |
budaatum:
This is the sort of lie you blind yourself with so you can't see. It also explains why you can't reason properly since you'd either write in such a way that you don't mean what you say, or twist other people's writing the way you've twisted scripture here. I always give in to you, to have the right to know what I know and/or what I've gone to know, so now all I am going to do here is, say the truth and nothing else. What I'll be saying to counter your bungled post is going to be centred on a theological, contextual, and linguistic (i.e. semantic) framework, with one or two other bits added. OK? budaatum:
Verse 39 goes:
After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed. And she was a virgin.
First, what was his vow again, and where did he vow to send her to do seminary work muttley? " And she vowed a vow, and said, O LORD of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life, and there shall no rasor come upon his head." - 1 Samuel 1:11 In fairness, to an untrained and/or unsuspecting eye, it is going to be hard to see where and how Jephthah vowed to send anyone to do seminary work, but it is there. What Jephthah did in vow #1, is a classic re-run of what Samuel's mother did with 1 Samuel 1:11 reproduced above. As I previously stated, what Jephthah said with vow #1, by saying: Whatsoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me shall surely be the LORD'S, means, will be given over to God, devoted to service), effectively ordaining that whatsoever comes will be God's, the entire lifetime, and the " seminary work" serves as a sign has been dedicated to God, similar way and manner Samuel earlier was. The only difference with Samuel, is the virginity aspect. Remember from the Judges 11:34-37 verses I earlier reproduced, that when Jephthah's daughter came out to meet him, father and daughter instantly knew the fate of the daughter is now a lifetime of celibacy, that she now never will marry, she'll be sexually abstinent and be dedicated to God as per her father's vow #1. " And his mother used to make for him a little robe and take it to him each year when she went up with her husband to offer the yearly sacrifice." - 1 Samuel 2:19 As seen in 1 Samuel 2:19 above, Hannah, Samuel's mother was visiting Samuel every year as he served the Lord, and so I would imagine Jephthah did similar or the same with his daughter too. 37And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.
38And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
39And it came to pass at the end of two months,
that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man.
And it was a custom in Israel,
40That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.- Judges 11:37-40 Notice, how the daughter begged her father Jephthah to permit her be alone for two months before the dedication, so she can go for two months with her friends in the mountains, to commiserate and sigh over the prospect of never going to have the pleasure of a banana and/or never going to have her honey pot dipped into. Up above there again, is the concrete and scriptural evidence in Judges 11:39, that though there was a bit of delay in paying vow #1, it eventually got paid when Jephthah's daughter after two months, gave herself up to her fate of a lifetime " seminary work" in God's presence or temple to a life of service but you budaatum, LordReed, frank317, Dantedasz, CreepyBlackpool, JujuSugar and others are bent on jumping to the wrong conclusion. budaatum:
Here's verse 40,
From this comes the Israelite tradition that each year the young women of Israel go out for four days to commemorate the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.
Commemorate means, to recall and show respect for (someone or something).
"a wreath-laying ceremony to commemorate the war dead" budaatum, this is the linguistic aspect or framework part, it is very important because you get the cues from the actual word originally used. You see budaatum, and I think LordReed was interested in this part too, the actual word used in the original text, which gets lost in translations, like for example, where translated as " lament" or " commemorate", is the hebrew word " tanah". This in hebrew, is defined as rehearse, as in, to recite aloud in a formal manner or to recount, as in, to tell someone about something or give an account of an event. So in effect, every four years, the young women of Israel go out for four days to recount or rehearse the story of the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite. I do understand, why the use of lament, as the young women, truly and really in those four days each year are giving a passionate expression of wailing and disappointment over what happened to the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite. Referring to Vow #1: Whatsoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me shall surely be the LORD'S (i.e. will be given over to God devoted to service) Referring to Vow #2: Better still, or if it happens to be an IT (i.e. an animal AND NOT a human being) then I will offer IT, the animal up for a burnt offering This will be and/or serve as a bonus. 34When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter came out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy.
She was his one and only child; he had no other sons or daughters.
35When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish.
“Oh, my daughter!” he cried out. “You have completely destroyed me! You’ve brought disaster on me!
For I have made a vow to the Lord, and I cannot take it back.”
36And she said, “Father, if you have made a vow to the Lord,
you must do to me what you have vowed, for the Lord has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites.
37But first let me do this one thing: Let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin- Judges 11:34-37 LordReed, we can see from the above Judges 11:34-37 verses, that when Jephthah's daughter came out to meet him, father and daughter instantly knew the fate of the daughter is now a lifetime of celibacy and dedication to God ( i.e. she now never will marry & she'll be sexually abstinent, as per vow #1) Hannah, Samuel's mum didnt lament because that is what she planned. Jephthah and his daughter lamented because this " perpetual" seclusion wasnt part of the plan. It was a plan gone, as it were, pear shaped wrong. The deal breaker of the alleged vow about Jephthah the Gileadite planning to offer human burnt sacrfice is the theological aspect or framework that this reputed act, actually is an anathema to God, this theologically speaking, because God, from the word, go, and on principle, disagrees with human burnt offerings, child sacrifices and/or ritualistic killing of children. God is not into that cruel wicked business and Jephthah knows that, this is not an option nor an acceptable way to try to gain favor from God with. Let's be clear about it that the act is an abomination, that God finds offensive and disgusting for anyone on their own accord decide to do. In addition to the contextual part addressed above, noticed that no where in the narrative, was the death of the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite mourned, but what she said was, " Let me go up and roam in the hills" OR " weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." (i.e. the virginity she will never get to lose). Of course, and again just like in vow #1, the trained eye, will see the " conjunctive waw" used in Judges 11:37 budaatum:
I don't think there's anywhere in the Bible where it says "Thou must not lie to yourself", muttley, but it is advice worth considering. Incidentally budaatum, there, somewhere in the Bible is " thou shall not steal" and also there is " thou shal not falsely accuse" Which of the two are you complicit of? budaatum:
Your blindness is like that of one who chooses to cover one's eyes and not put on a light so one can stumble in darkness. You need to learn to be kinder to yourself. Blindness? That's my line budaatum, or did you not read where I said, the problem here is people are so blinkered by the trees, that they can't because of the trees, see the woods, that is why they are so fixated on the impression that Jephthah barbecued his daughter budaatum, you know me this much, that I always have respected you, I do respect you and I enormously respect your opinions of me. The same respects goes for other subjects close to your heart or topics dear to you, even if I disagree with you on any, I will defend to the death your right to speak whatever it's in your mind concerning them Now the things about you budaatum, that I hugely admire and highly respect you for, are your legitimate, honest, humble, open, forthright, uninhibited, no-nonsense fair and square conduct when posting your comments. They always are your comments, they arent comments lifted elsewhere like other forums like quora.com and shamelessly in its entirety copied and pasted here, and to rub salt into theft-injury, not even giving credit to original male author(s) of the lifted comment. Maximum respect to you budaatum, you always will give credit to posts and/or literary works, if they arent yours, you dont fob them off, like just as if originally they are yours. Big kudos to you budaatum, and especially because considering the circumstances, you can be more forgiving than can be imagined. cc CodeTemplar, bloodofthelamb |
| Re: Why Did The God Tell Abraham To Sacrifice His Child by LordReed(m): 10:29pm On Feb 03, 2019 |
MuttleyLaff:
"And she vowed a vow, and said, O LORD of hosts, if thou wilt indeed look on the affliction of thine handmaid, and remember me, and not forget thine handmaid, but wilt give unto thine handmaid a man child, then I will give him unto the LORD all the days of his life, and there shall no rasor come upon his head."
- 1 Samuel 1:11
In fairness, to an untrained and/or unsuspecting eye, it is going to be hard to see where and how Jephthah vowed to send anyone to do seminary work, but it is there. What Jephthah did in vow #1, is a classic re-run of what Samuel's mother did with 1 Samuel 1:11 reproduced above. As I previously stated, what Jephthah said with vow #1, by saying: Whatsoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me shall surely be the LORD'S, means, will be given over to God, devoted to service), effectively ordaining that whatsoever comes will be God's, the entire lifetime, and the "seminary work" serves as a sign has been dedicated to God, similar way and manner Samuel earlier was. The only difference with Samuel, is the virginity aspect. Remember from the Judges 11:34-37 verses I earlier reproduced, that when Jephthah's daughter came out to meet him, father and daughter instantly knew the fate of the daughter is now a lifetime of celibacy, that she now never will marry, she'll be sexually abstinent and be dedicated to God as per her father's vow #1.
"And his mother used to make for him a little robe and take it to him each year when she went up with her husband to offer the yearly sacrifice."
- 1 Samuel 2:19
As seen in 1 Samuel 2:19 above, Hannah, Samuel's mother was visiting Samuel every year as he served the Lord, and so I would imagine Jephthah did similar or the same with his daughter too.
37And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my virginity, I and my fellows.
38And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
39And it came to pass at the end of two months,
that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man.
And it was a custom in Israel,
40That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.
- Judges 11:37-40
Notice, how the daughter begged her father Jephthah to permit her be alone for two months before the dedication, so she can go for two months with her friends in the mountains, to commiserate and sigh over the prospect of never going to have the pleasure of a banana and/or never going to have her honey pot dipped into. Up above there again, is the concrete and scriptural evidence in Judges 11:39, that though there was a bit of delay in paying vow #1, it eventually got paid when Jephthah's daughter after two months, gave herself up to her fate of a lifetime "seminary work" in God's presence or temple to a life of service but you budaatum, LordReed, frank317, Dantedasz, CreepyBlackpool, JujuSugar and others are bent on jumping to the wrong conclusion. Here's the difference between Jephthah and Hannah, Jephthah if we are to believe he sent his daughter to become a nun is sad while Hannah is happy, that should have been reversed. Hannah, mother of an only son should have been the one sad because she was losing a man child. A man child in those days was worth his weight in gold while a girl child, well we can see how the bible treats them. What is Jephthah's daughter's name? LoL. There is absolutely no way Jephthah is mourning the loss of his daughter to seminary when girl children are not even that well regarded.
budaatum, this is the linguistic aspect or framework part, it is very important because you get the cues from the actual word originally used. You see budaatum, and I think LordReed was interested in this part too, the actual word used in the original text, which gets lost in translations, like for example, where translated as "lament" or "commemorate", is the hebrew word "tanah". This in hebrew, is defined as rehearse, as in, to recite aloud in a formal manner or to recount, as in, to tell someone about something or give an account of an event. So in effect, every four years, the young women of Israel go out for four days to recount or rehearse the story of the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite. I do understand, why the use of lament, as the young women, truly and really in those four days each year are giving a passionate expression of wailing and disappointment over what happened to the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite.
Referring to Vow #1:
Whatsoever comes out of the doors of my house to meet me shall surely be the LORD'S (i.e. will be given over to God devoted to service)
Referring to Vow #2:
Better still, or if it happens to be an IT (i.e. an animal AND NOT a human being) then I will offer IT, the animal up for a burnt offering
This will be and/or serve as a bonus.
34When Jephthah returned home to Mizpah, his daughter came out to meet him, playing on a tambourine and dancing for joy.
She was his one and only child; he had no other sons or daughters.
35When he saw her, he tore his clothes in anguish.
“Oh, my daughter!” he cried out. “You have completely destroyed me! You’ve brought disaster on me!
For I have made a vow to the Lord, and I cannot take it back.”
36And she said, “Father, if you have made a vow to the Lord,
you must do to me what you have vowed, for the Lord has given you a great victory over your enemies, the Ammonites.
37But first let me do this one thing: Let me go up and roam in the hills and weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin
- Judges 11:34-37
LordReed, we can see from the above Judges 11:34-37 verses, that when Jephthah's daughter came out to meet him, father and daughter instantly knew the fate of the daughter is now a lifetime of celibacy and dedication to God (i.e. she now never will marry & she'll be sexually abstinent, as per vow #1) Hannah, Samuel's mum didnt lament because that is what she planned. Jephthah and his daughter lamented because this "perpetual" seclusion wasnt part of the plan. It was a plan gone, as it were, pear shaped wrong.
The deal breaker of the alleged vow about Jephthah the Gileadite planning to offer human burnt sacrfice is the theological aspect or framework that this reputed act, actually is an anathema to God, this theologically speaking, because God, from the word, go, and on principle, disagrees with human burnt offerings, child sacrifices and/or ritualistic killing of children. God is not into that cruel wicked business and Jephthah knows that, this is not an option nor an acceptable way to try to gain favor from God with. Let's be clear about it that the act is an abomination, that God finds offensive and disgusting for anyone on their own accord decide to do.
In addition to the contextual part addressed above, noticed that no where in the narrative, was the death of the daughter of Jephthah the Gileadite mourned, but what she said was, "Let me go up and roam in the hills" OR "weep with my friends for two months, because I will die a virgin." (i.e. the virginity she will never get to lose). Of course, and again just like in vow #1, the trained eye, will see the "conjunctive waw" used in Judges 11:37
Again another difference between Hannah and Jephthah that tells us their situations where not the same. Hannah's goes to Shiloh frequently to see her son while it is never mentioned that Jephthah saw her again or even thought much of her after because instead there is a ceremony by young women. No mention is made of Jephthah's involvement in this event in stark contrast to Hannah who takes a gift to her son every year. Another thing, about people dedicated to the god, they were never meant to be celibate. Samuel was definitely not celibate. There is no sign any of the tabernacle workers were meant to be celibate. Not the high priest, not the priests, not the Levites. So where did you get the idea that she was going into a convent that required her to be celibate? Even Deborah the prophetess was not celibate. Anna the woman in the New Testament also was not celibate. Please where did this idea come from? Muttley you tried but no amount of editorializing can make this story palatable. Jephthah most definitely roasted his daughter as he vowed. 4 Likes |
