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Nairaland Forum / Nairaland / General / Religion / Atheism Is A Religion (15088 Views)
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Re: Atheism Is A Religion by thehomer: 8:38pm On Nov 12, 2010 |
Uyi Iredia: You did and I responded to it with the theory of evolution being a scientific theory and not a religion. Uyi Iredia: Again with this "militant atheism". What does it mean? Can you define or describe it to me? |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by thehomer: 9:01pm On Nov 12, 2010 |
davidylan: It is not faith in the religious sense because, based on evidence from physics, a body in motion requires some force to make it stop. So I expect the sun to rise or set tomorrow. Besides, the sort of force that would make it not rise I expect to be a powerful meteor strike and with the current tools observing space, I also expect that such a body would have been detected. I don't know that the earth won't end in the next 2 minutes. davidylan: Is it actually faith or have you arrived at this position based on what we now know about say the mechanisms of thunder and lighting strikes, or the fact that Mount Olympus is actually not inhabited by Gods? |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by Nobody: 9:09pm On Nov 12, 2010 |
thehomer: But you really dont know right? All this is speculation. A cataclysmic shift in the earth's center may occur or the sun may suddenly explode (afterall science tells us (by faith) that it appeared following a big bang right? thehomer: but by faith you believe it wont right? thehomer: By faith pretty much. It is totally possible that it was untrue that Zeus controlled thunder and lightening. He might exist somewhere else . . . you and i dont know right? |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by thehomer: 9:12pm On Nov 12, 2010 |
OLAADEGBU: If you wish to go by this, then to the diligent and highly motivated student his education a religious activity. OLAADEGBU: No it doesn't. So is the pursuit of universal suffrage a religion? OLAADEGBU: So what? OLAADEGBU: This quote if accurate is simply this man's opinion which I think is inaccurate. OLAADEGBU: Evolution reigns supreme in what way? It is a plain fact just as gravity is a plain fact. |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by thehomer: 9:17pm On Nov 12, 2010 |
davidylan: No. Faith has no part to play in it. I simply do not expect it to knowing what we know about the age of the sun and how long we expect it to last. Besides, these events you describe will have shown some warning signs that by now we can detect due to our proximity to these bodies. davidylan: Again not by faith. I simply don't expect it to based on our accumulated scientific knowledge. davidylan: Not so. If the deity did not control thunder and lightning here on earth where the Greeks were able to write about him, then it was not Zeus. |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by Enigma(m): 8:12am On Nov 13, 2010 |
Actually, there is a point to what Olaadegbu said though perhaps it is preferable to substitute "rationalism" for evolution (EDITED: though we can actually stand atheism on its own without necessarily relating it to either evolution or even rationalism). For example, let us take thehomer's own preferred definition of "religion" (even though Jesoul has already shown the intellectual inadequacy of sticking to one of four definitions offered by the same source): A collection of practices, based on beliefs and teachings that are highly valued or sacred. I will pause to let that sink in! ![]() |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by thehomer: 8:44am On Nov 13, 2010 |
Enigma: I picked that definition for some reasons which I outlined in my response to JeSoul. If you have a better definition, you're free to present it. Rationalism, atheism and evolution are not religions. Going by my preferred definition, what are the sacred beliefs and teachings that they have? |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by Enigma(m): 9:11am On Nov 13, 2010 |
^^^ So you cannot see that by your own preferred definition the beliefs and teachings do not have to be "sacred"? Here is your own preferred definition again: A collection of practices, based on beliefs and teachings that are highly valued [size=16pt]or[/size] sacred. |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by thehomer: 11:28am On Nov 13, 2010 |
Enigma: There is an "or" in the definition which is a very important part of the definition. So go ahead and present the practices, beliefs and teachings that are highly valued with rationalism, atheism and evolution keep in mind that these practices ought to be consistent across groups. |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by Enigma(m): 1:01pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
^^^ 1. This is the breakdown of your own preferred definition of religion. Religion is (a) A collection of practices, based on beliefs and teachings that are highly valued; OR (b) A collection of practices, based on beliefs and teachings that are sacred. That is the importance of the "or" that you referred to. 2. I made a distinction earlier between "passive" atheists and evangelical (if not indeed aggressive and/or militant) atheists. It is patently clear from this thread that the focus is primarily on the evangelical (if not indeed aggressive/militant) atheists. Thus the case is really that evangelical (if not indeed aggressive/militant) atheism is a religion. 3. Here are are some of the practices, beliefs and teachings of evangelical atheism (a) the practice of actively seeking to convince others that there is no god (b) the practice of actively seeking to 'debunk' Christianity and/or religion (c) the practice of actively challenging Christian and/or religious doctrine (d) the belief and teaching that rationalism is supreme and that anything that cannot be proven by rational or scientific methods is unsustainable or not true (remember our debate on faith and reason?). I can list more but these are enough. 4. You ask that the practices, beliefs and teachings be consistent across atheist groups; well, they are certainly consistent among evangelical (if not indeed aggressive/militant) atheist groups. What is more, beware of falling into double-standards since not all religious groups (not even all Christian groups) have wholly consistent practices, beliefs and teachings. 5. Here are samplings of what evangelical atheism means: From here http://evangelicalatheism.org/ "Evangelical atheism": Sounds like an oxymoron, doesn't it? But "evangelism" literally means "bringing of good news." I believe that strong atheism, the belief that there is no god, is not only true but is also good news. I also believe that the world would be a better place if there were more atheists. Unless you already are one, I believe you would be happier and the world would be a better place if you were an atheist. and from here http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=evangelical%20atheist An evangelical atheist is one who not only believes there is no god or other supreme being, but is obsessed with convincing everyone around them to become an atheist too, usually through hard-line intolerance (the kind they accuse other religions of). When cornered they usually try to put down their opponent's religion and bash them for 'blind faith', not realizing that their belief that there is no god is no more or less valid or provable than the other guy's belief that there is one. Not to be confused with normal atheists/agnostics, who for the most part just dont talk about religion and accept the beliefs of those around them as their perogative. Evangelical atheists are particularly common on the Internet, as organized religion is generally accepted as part of 'the system' of global human society, and lately it's become cool on the Internet to hate 'the system'. Mostly teen angst if you ask me, Conclusion? Evangelical atheism is a religion ----- especially according to your own preferred definition of religion. So you fellows should stop denying what you are i.e. members of the evangelical atheism religion. ![]() |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by Enigma(m): 1:08pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
Oh, by the way, if you want an example of evangelical atheism in action try this link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/7813812.stm ![]() |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by DeepSight(m): 1:15pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
Enigma e ku ise o. Howdi. I have been you in this thread, not seeing the need to respond intoto, you know how you do when you view something as beneath you. . . But your last post is indeed worthwhile to respond to: I'd like to say that neither atheism nor evangelical atheism are religions. For the simple reason that religion by its very nature, purpose and intent, is a set of doctrines cast in a sacred mould which is driven towards spirituality. It is in every case a purposeful journey towards that which is deemed the spiritual light. That can not be said for atheism or even for evengelical atheism for that matter. |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by Rhino4dm: 1:30pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
^^ one of the core values of being an atheist it self is hypocritism. Way to go fella! African adage: " you cant hide two things: character and pregnancy when they both fully manifest. |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by DeepSight(m): 1:33pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
Enigma: Would you call evangelical communism a religion? ? ? |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by manmustwac(m): 1:41pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
Wow! So are you theists trying to say that all atheist are religious? Because all religions have a diety & atheists have no diety |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by Enigma(m): 1:41pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
@ Deep Sight I think I have expressed my view on the thread subject clearly enough. Naturally, others are entitled to different views. ![]() |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by UyiIredia(m): 1:42pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
[size=14pt]Atheism Is A Religion: The errancy of polarizing faith and reason[/size] With the way science/religion, faith/reason are portrayed, especially in Western culture, a stereotype could emerge: Science/Reason would SOLELY be associated with atheism while Faith/Irrationality would equate to religion. I had earlier connoted this in my post.
"One can have a reasoned approach to (or view of) his faith. Even the minutest of reason, involves faith" (q.v) "Science and Religion are mutually inclusive. As long as one is both are" - Uyi Iredia Science and Religion are inescapably tied down to ideologies. They influence the worldview of a person. I opine that Science is an inquiry into nature; while Religion is an inquiry into the underlying cause of nature_who/what is behind the universe. Note that, if "Science" and "Religion" are interposed in my definitions, it would still hold true. (e.g Religion is an inquiry into nature). Both have patrimony in philosophy. We know that many (if not all) religions could be classified under theism/deism. We are also aware that people such as St Augustine, St Thomas Aquinas, George Berkeley et al defended theist philosophy in their various treatises. Errors of polarizing science and religion include: *1 >>> the fallibility of polarity *2 >>> their immutability in philosophy *3 >>> the sin of 'convenient ignorance' *4 >>> the scourge of 'non-intertwining concepts' *5 >>> the malaise of 'inherent flaws' The thrust of my debate is predicated upon expatiating and clarifying the errors listed above. I hope that this will make the truth and lies of the topic made more lucid. The fallibility of polarity Polarizing distinguishes between two objects for the purpose of clarity by contrasting such objects. In doing so it ignores the fact that object or subjects are interrelated and enmeshed. There is also a tendency to revert to polarity because it is easy to_ humans are lazy. An example of polarizing is oft found in the question: What is good or evil ? As kids we were admonished to do 'good' and shun 'evil'. I outquote good and evil because of this: Evil actions are considered by their perpetrators to be good. The same applies if I were to interpose good and evil. Moreover, the ongoing debate in moral philosophy as espoused by 'isms' (e.g pragmatism, liberalism, conservatism e.t.c ) goes to show that the line between good and evil blurs. Another example which has more bearing is on polarizing faith and reason. To this end I will repeat one of my citations "One can have a reasoned approach to (or view of) his faith. Even the minutest of reason, involves faith" the moment you polarize faith and reason you have blundered as regards the above statement de gustibus. You ignore their enmeshment simply by polarizing. I hope that is clear. Their immutability in philosophy Philosophy is derived from the Greek word the word philosophia which means 'love of wisdom'. So I was taught in philosophy class last year. Do I need to sermonize to show that this love of wisdom is common to both science and religion ! The only intricacy I see with this_and rightly so_ is that science and religion percieve wisdom in various ways. To this end I visualize Science and Religion as Siamese twins (sharing vital organs) both whom have their unique persona despite their outward likeness. Their immutability in philospphy is also proven by how one invariably impacts the other. Many medieval philosophers hugely impacted on the scientific method during the Medieval age (of course their impact cascaded into present scientific thought); likewise, we know of how scientific theories (e.g the theory of evolution, the theory of relativity, even Newton's laws of mechanics) left their imprints on religious thought and in the case of evolution spurred violent reactions. I rest my case the sin of 'convenient ignorance' Any keen observer would note that right from the list that this point (i.e the sin of convenient ignorance) and the subsequent errors are by-products of the first 2 reasons. For example when you polarize to concepts (for the purpose of contrasting) you ignore their similarities. Convenient ignorance per se is a self-describing term. It means to ignore for the sake of convenience. It ignores what it knows, its flaws, its lies and dangers_for the sake of convenience. You can't polarize science and religion, for example, without the following posit: " Religion can be scientifically applied in one's life & Science religiously adheres to logical positivism" - Uyi Iredia A religious critic (e.g Deep Sight who specializes in polarizing science and religion) will ignore the truth in the above posit and hype its flaws *SMH at this possibility ![]() look at this space ooo !!! I'm going to add more points to it |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by Rhino4dm: 1:48pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
"Only a fool says in his heart there is no God by extension, atheism is the religion of the foolish" ----Rhino.4dm ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by thehomer: 2:29pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
Enigma: Yes and it seems you wish to go with the (a) portion only. Enigma: I did not notice this distinction. And I'll ask you too. Can you define or describe what you mean by militant atheism? So your case is against "evangelical atheism"? That is the religion? Enigma: So your argument basically amounts to: discussing or promoting one's views publicly is a highly valued religious practice on par with e.g the practice of regular communion, regular prayers at certain times of the day etc? This interpretation would make promotion of communism, socialism even the promotion of some aspects of philosophy religious activities. I remember our discussion but please understand that several times you refused to defend your position. Also, I don't see what the problem is with acting rationally or encouraging people to act rationally because that is what is expected of humans. Trying to deny that humans try to act rationally is like cutting a branch off a tree that you're sitting on to get to a higher position. Or do you think rational actions are not useful? Enigma: What you described as practices are simply not religious practices. Those are activities carried out during an exchange of ideas about God. Enigma: Even if you wish to call some people "evangelical atheists" they simply do not have consistent practices that may be considered highly valued or sacred without destroying the meaning you wish to get across. You may be better off describing "evangelical atheism" as being a movement rather than a religion. I do agree that defining religion is very tricky but the way I see it, any definition that tries to lump concepts like atheism, theism etc into it simply becomes so broad as to be virtually devoid of meaning. I was asked what would make me consider a movement as being religious, and my response was made here https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-546562.96.html#msg7129510
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Re: Atheism Is A Religion by UyiIredia(m): 2:38pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
@ the homer >>> my conception of militant atheism is Atheism that actively seeks adherents and denounces all forms of religion whilst accepting ev olution as the SOLE basis of man's existence. u forgot to correct my error; under what are Shintoism and Taoism classified ? >>> also note that what is sacred is predicated upon what is highly valued >>> the ONLY thing which distinguishes both is the concept of 'divine' i.e something wrt a deity) which applies PRIMARILY to anything sacred >>> of course I mentioned the defining theme which is sacred to atheism
*1 >>> like your reference of faith (in which u said u only mean religious faith when talking about faith) , this definition is constrictive. You effectively annulled this definition when u said that defining religion is tricky (which I'' take to mean that the concept of 'religion' is ambiguous) >>> U probably thought otherwise b4 entering this discussion ? *2 >>> Don't think 'religious' adherents will agree with that. Besides this definition creates a quandary when I consider stuff like "Atheo-Buddhism" or the so-called "New Age religions" *3 >>> This is the same 'sin' u committed in your definition of religion. Besides the fact that one can categorize religions under theism opens Atheism up to the same possibility. Virtually devoid isn't devoid @ Deep Sight >>> Why u don't see this (your definition of religion) in humanism (and by extension atheism) surprises me. To clear the dust >>> Please !!! >>> Expantiate on the terms '(spiritual) light', 'sacred' and 'spirituality'. >>> Let's work from there |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by thehomer: 2:53pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
Uyi Iredia: I do not agree with this because, religious faith as I understand it depends on poor or no evidence. Uyi Iredia: Mutually inclusive? I hope you are quite aware of the wide chasms between the practices of science and religion? Uyi Iredia: Religion may be tied down but science is not tied down to ideologies this is one of the reasons for its universality on earth. The very same electromagnetic principles work whatever the ideologies of the practitioners. Uyi Iredia: Religion no longer enquires it already has the answers written in books and with the religious authorities. Uyi Iredia: Humans have been engaged in religious activities before they codified their thoughts in philosophy but scientific thinking came later much later. So what if they used philosophy to try to defend their positions? Uyi Iredia: This post is getting too long. I'll break up my responses to the sections. |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by thehomer: 2:59pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
Uyi Iredia: Is militant the best word to use in that phrase? I ask because militant groups generally use or encourage violent means to achieve their ends. Uyi Iredia: I did. I placed it under atheism. This is the post. https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-546562.96.html#msg7129803 |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by thehomer: 3:19pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
Uyi Iredia: The use of the word faith with respect to science and religion usually fails due to the fallacy of equivocation. Faith in religion is basically based on poor or no evidence. When the word faith is used in science, it generally implies that one does not know the future based on uncertainties but, the core difference is that with science, there are loads of evidence backing up the expectation of what is to happen. Uyi Iredia: What do you mean by immutability? Scientific theories are deliberately modified when the need arises but religion generally does not change even when some evidence is available that points out some problems with doctrine. Did any of the scientific theories you mentioned cause modifications to the religious texts? Uyi Iredia: I guess some religions may be rigorously followed but many cannot in this present day and age. You're about to define religion in a way that makes it too vague to be useful. Uyi Iredia: Ok. |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by Enigma(m): 3:59pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
@thehomer regarding post no 178 I went by your preferred definition of religion, which you supplied which I even hinted was intellectually inadequate. I believe that I have proven adequately that evangelical atheism is a religion ----- according to your preferred definition of "religion" which you supplied. ![]() |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by thehomer: 7:20pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
Enigma: Yeah it's inadequate and religion is hard to define. But of course going by your chosen interpretation, promotion of communism, socialism even the promotion of some aspects of philosophy are religious activities. If you're satisfied with this conclusion then that's fine. You've also decided to ignore other aspects of the post that criticize some views you wished to promote. |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by thehomer: 7:27pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
Uyi Iredia: The fact that I pointed out that defining religion is tricky does not automatically mean my definition was wrong. You are also free to present your definition. The definitions tend to attempt to concisely describe what they are for. I knew it was difficult to define but why should that stop me from contributing to the discussion? I don't think what you mentioned was sacred to atheism in fact, I'll go further to say that atheism has no sacred practices. Uyi Iredia: In what way? Uyi Iredia: Classifying religions under atheism or theism does not make such concepts religions. I used virtually devoid because I have not sat and thought of all other possibilities. If you have, then you can help me make the statement more accurate. |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by Krayola(m): 8:29pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
Religion is a belief in an unseen order; and that our supreme good lies in harmoniously adjusting ourselves hereto. |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by DeepSight(m): 9:26pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
^^^^ brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrriiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiilllllllllllllllllllllliiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiaaaaaaaaannnnnntttttttttttttt! ! ! ! ! ! ! |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by Enigma(m): 10:19pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
@thehomer re post 184 The fact is that on one definition - your own definition - evangelical atheism is a religion. You are the one who picked that definition. Whether others want to fit communism etc within that definition is not presently my business. Meanwhile I really don't know what points you say I avoided. |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by InesQor(m): 10:51pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
Krayola: ![]() |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by OLAADEGBU(m): 11:15pm On Nov 13, 2010 |
thehomer: The theory of evolution is not a scientific theory it remains a belief that cannot be proved scientifically. |
Re: Atheism Is A Religion by thehomer: 7:53am On Nov 14, 2010 |
Enigma: It was not my definition. It was one I picked out of four from a satisfactory site for the purposes of this discussion. The conclusions have to be your business because they are direct implications of your interpretation. If you also agree that communism and others are religions too then that is fine since you're being consistent with it. You may also note that I actually did tentatively come up with my own description of what I think describes a religion in my previous response to you on my post #178 with some other points I made about the concept of highly valued actions being considered religious. Enigma: The points were in forms of questions I'll state them here. 1. What is your description or definition of "militant atheism"? 2. Do you consider discussing or promoting one's views about God(s) publicly a highly valued religious practice on par with e.g the practice of regular communion, regular prayers at certain times of the day etc? 3. Do you think rational thoughts or actions are wrong? |
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