frumentius:

Thanks for this. I was initially apprehensive lest my opinion be too influenced by SA doctrine. I agree with you on the 60mm/patmor pairing.

As you rightly point out, Denel's long range 60mm now shoots out to the same range as 81mm. Effect-on-range vs fire-on-range?
For example; I'll use Ratel as Badger is a work in progress and classified:
Ratel can carry either
1) 148- 81mm bombs at a weight of 666kg;
2) 391- 60mm bombs; and
3) 41- 120mm mortars, for the same weight.

Assuming a sustained rate of fire of 16 bombs/minute that means 120mm support fire for 2.5 minutes, 81mm for 9.25 minutes and 60mm for 24.4 minutes.
Now, the logs guys simplistically say do away with the 81mm and carry more of the 60mm which has same range and better accuracy.
I disagree. Keep the 60 as a Patmor, use the limited tech funds on the 81mm and motorise the 120mm. Away from our planning desks and screens, the guys down-range need to do more than just keep people under cover . Logs job is simply to remove the worry of supply from the guys on the front [On Friday afternoon, 22 March, everyone at JOps knew fecal matter was flowing in Bangui and the logs guys were hamstrung by the TTPs such that relief only arrived on Tues, at great expense and too late to be of use].

As for the automated mortars: having recently observed the Recces using the Scorpion[auto laying and aiming] system both in manual and auto loading, not much to choose between the 2 on the bang side of things. Major difference in shortening the "fire discipline" process.

But back to the Italians: I noticed their anti-tank capability is all dismounts, and not vehicle-borne? What's up with that?

frumentius:


Hopefully these links will let you see it clearly:
http://3.bp..com/-IR3hAOalfPU/TjUkjWYKZNI/AAAAAAAAAck/JzWUk4Sehec/s1600/Compagnia_fucilieri_Fanteria_Media.png

Hope I don't fall foul of the pestilential bot: http://1.bp..com/-vejXl1tClqg/TjUkkspP8HI/AAAAAAAAAco/KBBzGG4ugmY/s1600/Compagnia_supporto_alla_manovra_Fanteria_Media.png


I'm biased here but I prefer this automatic self-loading 120mm, which Denel has supplied to the UAE.

MikeCZA:
Mostly spec ops.

frumentius:
That time we put the ZA-35 on a T-72. Anybody got the pics of the T-72 at AAD/DEXSA back in the early 90s?

newafricaken254:
don't act dumb,your ratel,casspir,SAMIL 100,Olifant e.t.c were being utilised deep inside angola,how were they being repaired and maintained!?

ActivateKruger:


Apparently the was a G5 that had a faulty shell that killed loaders days after arriving in south Angola. I can't find the link now but I remember reading about it and it wasn't on the Russian propaganda website (we know how they tend to tell propaganda about the whole battle).

If I find a link at any given time, I'll post it up.

andrewza:


as i said long range raider. But it was never at any point ever seen as a tank destroyer. All so the eland had very big mobility issues and not nearly good enough endurance to make it a good scout for our mechanized forces

GreenandGold:
The STF deployed in an East Rand township at the times of the pre-94 election violence.

jln115:

So what is our long term strategy to increase our Armour capability(As in our armoured corps), The new Badger fitted with Ingwe will obviously be added to our Armoured formation, and obviously there once was a requirement for an Olifant replacement.....but only a 100 or so units. As you said mobility is still the way we will fight in the future, those this mean that we will be looking more in to lighter, faster wheeled vehicles in the future if we decide expand our armoured capability......a newer Rooikat 105mm or modern Eland replacement comes to mind!!, or will we focus more on replacing our heavy less mobile armour like the Olifant? maybe building up a decent Tank fleet!!

@Activatekruger anything you'll like to add?? also whats your take on how we should expand our armoured capability, maybe a Rooikat with a 120mm would be a great mix of firepower and mobility?

ssaengine:


You clearly have no clue as to the scale of Egypt's military. South Africa and Nigeria's assets combined would be swallowed up by them.

ActivateKruger:



In the SANDF, mortars are bread and butter of the infantry. Bases have them, the Ratel has a 60mm version called the Ratel 60 as well as the 81mm version, the new Denel Badger has a mortar turret, the Special Forces have a dedicated mortar Hornet vehicle they use for "behind the enemy lines assaults". Even parabats just with a knee mortar.


I often wonder how a good number of African forces deploy without mortar.

frumentius:

In the name of all that's holy, why did you get the Tavor?

frumentius:

Personally, I think there's a place for both 5.56 and 7.62 rounds.
The 5.56 for FIBUA, to minimise civilian collateral damage; and 7.62 out in the bush.
Incidentally, been thinking about a replacement for the R-series (cos we'll have to replace it at some point):
1) Most logical is a licence-produced Galil ACE in both 5.56 and 7.62 NATO - out obviously because politics;
2) And I keep circling back to the CZ Bren 2, in both 5.56 and 7.62 NATO.

Licence-produced of course, and achieving economies of scale through equipping both SANDF and SAPS.

patches689:


Yes, I know thats why I made my post.

As carbines go, the R5 has a higher muzzle velocity than the standard service rifles of other nations (which are all carbines these days). [because 5.56×45mm NATO is a marvelous round]

Just been reading about how 5.56×45 is kind of a double edged sword. It doesnt expand much on impact and has a small "yaw" leading to a higher probability of wounding an enemy soldier (at range) as apposed to killing - HOWEVER - because the round does not expand, it is excellent at penetrating light cover, which is great for bush-fighting.

ssaengine:


You fell for the trap

ActivateKruger:
According to this report, Cape Town is likely one of the best places to run to if Donald Trump decides to start a nuclear WWIII with North Korea.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/living/1981979/here-are-nine-of-the-safest-places-in-the-world-to-survive-a-third-world-war/

As for me, I'm less likely to live in the waterless Cape.

Algerian1:


on algerian military forum they are not sure about what exactly system its , algeria have good relation with Rheinmetall and Denel maybe its the same system then yours

Stephandeswardt:
Also we need to stop bombing with 250kg bombs.....the minimum for bombing runs should be 500kg bombs......sometimes when the airforce shows bombing runs and I see vehicles driving off.....I wonder if staffing by aircraft cannons and rockets aren't more effective. ...

nemesis2u:


depends on

1.cost operational effectiveness,
2.the maximum permissible load of the individual weapon stations,
3.the mission profile
4.and the type of targets

etc

generally (very rough figures)

a 250 kg bomb has a blast radius out to 15 meters, with fragmentation effect out to 50 meters.

a 500 kg bomb has a blast radius out to 30 meters, with fragmentation effect out to 100 meters.

whats the point of attacking a hut with 3/4 insurgents with a 500kg bomb ?

will u be able to bear the costs , in such cases cost operational effectiveness is very low , ur expending more dollars for killing targets which can also be killed easily with cheaper bombs. in short ur playing into the hands of insurgents ie slow but steady attrition of ur resources

whats happens if multiple targets pops up , in place of 2 500kg bombs if u can carry 4 250kg bombs ur engagement scope increases.

is the aircraft in question certified to carry 500kg stores , if yes good if no then nothing can be done (depends on aircraft type)

if ur in a seach and destroy mission which one is generally more convenient, 4 250 kg bombs or 2 500 kg bombs

unguided bombs r more effective if released in a pattern.eg 4 250 kg bombs released in a linear drop pattern will damage a long convoy more than 2 500kg bomb.

heavier 500kg bombs r more difficult to deliver accurately vis a vis lighter 250kg bombs. difference aint much but still appreciable depending on the aircraft in question.


etc

Stephandeswardt:
Also we need to stop bombing with 250kg bombs.....the minimum for bombing runs should be 500kg bombs......sometimes when the airforce shows bombing runs and I see vehicles driving off.....I wonder if staffing by aircraft cannons and rockets aren't more effective. ...

jakeporeshenko:
German Air Force helicopters currently deployed to Mali, I think one of those tiger helicopters were involved in a fatal crash recently. RIP to its crew.

kikuyu1:
Any idea on your former nukes? Btw,when Mandela agreed to have the remaining bombs decomissioned I lost ALL hope,but thats another story....

Initially it was only planned to build six nuclear warheads here but Eventually 14 were being planned for. Israel had to quit its cooperation due to heavy pressure from the United States of America.

http://censorbugbear-reports..co.ke/2014/08/peek-inside-deserted-nuclear-bomb.html
It seems the usual suspects got their hands on at least 3 which ended up in the ME ;from which the trail grows cold.

http://petereyrepatch..co.ke/2010/03/us-and-uk-lost-three-nuclear-weapons_04.html

How sure are you the disassembled bombs are still in situ Pelindaba?

kikuyu1:


Yes,but his was obviously the Mk 1 which had typical teething issues. The child porn thing wasn't relevant.

kikuyu1:


Exactly! The INSAS was meant to work in 30-celsius Kargil and 45+ celsius 100% humidity of Kanyakumari in the far south! As I always say,hear what the operator,the real life shooter says of a rifle or any other weapons system. In this case see what ex SAS John McAleese who fought in Rhodesia and was one the founders of 44 Para says of the R4 after it let him down:
http://www.oocities.org/odjobman/nomean.htm

How and why was such an operationally unready rifle issued??

ActivateKruger:


The only invasion that could ever occurred could have been from Zim. So Zim is down and out then nothing will over occur.

My biggest concern with South Africa's defence affairs is the sensationalised media. I once read a main media article years ago banishing the purchase of the Badger. The reporter who obviously had no military background information went on about how many schools would have been built with the money.

As I said, the military should have a black budget and place things under the Secrecy Bill to stop journalists from snooping around on sensitive defence issues.

GreenandGold:
Throwback.

Ratel in a staging area, nothern Namibia.

61mech:
The Germans didn't order their Tigers with guns and ended up regretting it.
A gun is many times more cost effective for most targets. Especially in COIN warfare.
Only the big boys can afford to shoot a $115 000 hellfire at a $10 000 toyota.

Henry240:


Taking up a much needed hardpoint that ordinarily should carry another rocket rack.

No Sir, this is not a well thought out helicopter. Instead of this, the army whenever they are ready should go for armed LUH instead.

kikuyu1:


True but look at the Indian LCH 50% cheaper than yours. My point remains: you should've gone for a more basic lite design cause now you're competing with the Apache and Euro Tiger,pushed by heavy weight global politics.
Here's what one of your websites says:
http://www.engineeringnews.co.za/article/what-went-wrong-with-the-rooivalk-2007-06-08-1

kikuyu1:
This is an interesting resource on weapons systems prices;everything from SAMs to MPAs.

http://nationsdawnofanera.weebly.com/-helicopters.html

HAL LCH 30 MN$

HAL Rudra 15 MN$

KA 50 42.5 MN$

KA 52 55 MN$

MI 24 12 MN

MI24 D 15 MN

MI 28 NE 40 MN

MI 35 16 MN

ROOIVALK 45 MN

AH-1 Cobra 20 MN

AH-1W SuperCobra 30 MN

AH-1Z Viper 40 MN

AH-6 10 MN

S Africans,I hope you see why the Rooivalk can't sell. If you produce a light version at 30-50% off you'll find a buyer.

I'dve thought the KAF would first go for transport. 3 years back a C 295 was doing circuits above MAB and we all thought a couple were en route,but alas!
We need light and medium lifters as of yesterday! Imo,even more than newer FSBs. Ideally,at least 6 C295s and 2 Y8s.hanxi Y8 35 MN$

Shanxi Y9 45 MN$


c 295 35 mn

C 235 25 MN$

kabe1:


The Nigerian Big Foot MRAPs have proven to be very effective in combat.

You cannot compare a basic APC to a vehicle designed to counter IEDs. This is were you are wrong.

Odunayaw:
its better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it

close quarters combat is not SEGA