seyibrown:

[b]
John 4:19-24
King James Version (KJV)


19The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.

20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.

21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.

22Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.

23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.



Today's churches have become business centres! It has resulted in MAN WORSHIP and MONEY WORSHIP! The amount of money wasted on building places of worship can be better spent bettering the lives of believers and non-believers. People are 'forced' to bring money they cannot spare for purposes that are not essential! The people are suffering but the Church building is covered in Gold (not literally)! Non-believers are already asking for churches to be taxed because of the corruption found in Churches, and it will happen!

When the Anti-Christ turns in full force on Christians and you cannot gather in a 'physical Church', you will have to not worship God at Christ Embassy or wherever but at home, in secret (underground), in spirit and in truth! The church is spiritual, not a brick building or a denomination![/b]

Joagbaje:

Christ is building his church. He wants to perfect the saints unto maturity.

Joagbaje:

Ephesians 4:11-12
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Joagbaje:

That's why he has given certain offices as gifts to perfect the saints.everyone could have prayed at home and read the bible.

Joagbaje:

where you are alone, he is there also. That doesn't make up for the church.

Hebrews 10:25
25 Let us not neglect our church meetings, as some people do, but encourage and warn each other, especially now that the day of his coming back again is drawing near.

Can you quote where I said that?


2 people can't fulfil the purpose of the church. The two are part of a whole. But when you disconnect the 2 from a whole. Something is wrong.somebody is missing something.

1 Corinthians 12:21-22
. . .  And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. 22 Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary:


When you leave topic and start getting personal , I begin to wonder.  

I don't get you here , you're not saying anything
   

You can speak for yourself alone.Why did you stop going to church? What kind of church?  This answer will determin if the problem is your church, or your pastor or even you.

Christ is building his church. He wants to perfect the saints unto maturity. Bring born again is only a starting point and not an end on it's own. That's why he has given certain offices as gifts to perfect the saints.everyone could have prayed at home and read the bible. But it will not suffice. You need the body. You need the ministry gifts. The church needs to grow into fullness of christ.

Ephesians 4:11-12
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

And another part is to evangelise the world for Jesus .

where you are alone, he is there also. That doesn't make up for the church.

Hebrews 10:25
25 Let us not neglect our church meetings, as some people do, but encourage and warn each other, especially now that the day of his coming back again is drawing near.

Can you quote where I said that?

That's not what I meant. I'm talking about purpose and callings. 2 neighbours can just be meeting together to fellowship in a new shell estate because there is no church around. But that doesn't make for the church.  They can't continue like that for too long. The church has purpose and structure. It is by the holyghost.

2 people can't fulfil the purpose of the church. The two are part of a whole. But when you disconnect the 2 from a whole. Something is wrong.somebody is missing something.

When you leave topic and start getting personal , I begin to wonder.  

I don't get you here , you're not saying anything

Please, don't do a deepsight on me.   I never said anything about being tired, offended, or discouraged.  I said disillusioned.  Disillusion is when you were once under an illusion and then the illusion is removed and you become dis-illusioned.  It might have the effect of deflating you, or it might buoy you up.  That depends on how you handle disillusionment.  

You can speak for yourself alone.Why did you stop going to church? What kind of church?  This answer will determin if the problem is your church, or your pastor or even you.

[b]Christ is building his church. [/b]He wants to perfect the saints unto maturity. Bring born again is only a starting point and not an end on it's own. That's why he has given certain offices as gifts to perfect the saints.everyone could have prayed at home and read the bible. But it will not suffice. You need the body. You need the ministry gifts. The church needs to grow into fullness of christ.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

  37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

  40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

  41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

  44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

  45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

  46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

yommyuk:

Mat 18:20 says: "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them"

The above scripture is a true statement but on 90% of cases abused. The gathering of 2 or 3 for starters is good, but without divine direction is inherent to wither away.  We are told that only 120 believers were present at the first prayer meeting seeking divine direction (Acts 1:13-15), but after the mighty outpouring of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, the number of Christians increased to about 3000 (Acts 2:41). This number increased to 5000 after they heared the word from Peter and  John(Act 4:4).

My point.

The gathering of so called believers without any divine directive from God in my opinion is a dangerous move. A movement outside the will of God cannot stand the test of time.

Psalms 127:1
Unless the Lord builds a house, the work of the builders is wasted (in vain)

The intial motive for establishing the movement ( the seed) will eventually grow and take over. The weeds will outgrow the wheat. A RECIPE FOR DISASTER

But if the gathering is of divine calling, the God of Hosts will equip you(movement) with all you(it) need(s) for doing his will. He will produce in you thru the power of Jesus Christ every good thing that is pleasing to him (Heb 13:21). It is God that will supply you with the resources (human, finance,spirtual) needed to accomplish his works. In you God will bear Good fruit. Family men will resign from their jobs to follow your calling. you become fishers of men.

Pastor AIO:

By the way, it was the JW that broke out of the Seventh-Day-Adventists. 

Pastor AIO:


I believe it is being very much facilitated by the internet where people can talk without consideration for their social position or social status.  This allows for a more honest interaction.  There are, for instance, on NL many atheists who would not dare tell their parents or communities that they are atheist.

I very much liken it to the effect of the printing press and what that did to religious thought in Europe.  Printing even served to bring down Monarchies and governments too. 

nuclearboy:

^ Sir:

Are you not a tad too harsh on DeepSight? He never claimed any moral code, you know?

nuclearboy:

2 people AND God make up a Church. 3,000 people worshipping their own "perceptions" and "lusts" and clapping excitedly make for entertainment. Christ has settled this argument when He said true worshipers would do so in spirit and truth rather than in any specific place.

By the way, is it just me or did others notice Pastor posted 7 questions which "cannot" be answered but were rather dodged?

Which makes me wonder - what do you call a building containing congregants led by non-christians who teach from the Bible?

At bolded: Many of them are called CATHEDRALS!     . . . . if you know what I am saying! The modern day ones can be called anything!

JeSoul:

I've been following the thread and will continue. But quick comment . . .
Am I missing something, or does it appear the:

"Emerging Church" as a concept, new approach gaining traction around the globe in independent minds [/i]Pastor_LIO (I think) is talking about
is different from the

[i]"Emerging Church" as an already existing establishment/group complete with leaders that Enigma and others are talking about?

Pastor AIO:

Thank you for that observation, JeSoul. The establishment that they are all mostly attacking, I believe, is the Emergent Village. I think watching the Mark Driscoll link on my 3rd post will make the situation a lot clearer. This is not a single monolithic movement, though I suspect that many of it's critics wish it were so.

JeSoul:

I've been following the thread and will continue. But quick comment . . .
Am I missing something, or does it appear the:

"Emerging Church" as a concept, new approach gaining traction around the globe in independent minds [/i]Pastor_LIO (I think) is talking about
   is different from the

[i]"Emerging Church" as an already existing establishment/group complete with leaders that Enigma and others are talking about?

Steve Chalke (MBE, UN.GIFT Special Advisor on Community Action against Human Trafficking), is an ordained Baptist minister who is a prominent, and often outspoken, Christian leader and social activist based in the UK. He is the author of numerous books and articles as well as a regular presenter and contributor on television and radio programmes. In 2004 he was awarded an MBE for his services to social inclusion by the Queen.[1]

Chalke was ordained as a Baptist Minister in 1981, having studied at Spurgeon's Theological College in London, and was a local minister of Tonbridge Baptist Church in Kent for four years before setting up the Oasis Trust. More recently Chalke founded Church.co.uk,[3] a developing network of community churches around the UK which began with the formation of Church.co.uk in Waterloo, central London in 2003 and now includes churches in Salford, Enfield, Bristol and a growing number of other locations. Chalke still serves as the senior minister of the central London church in Waterloo.

Church.co.uk

In 2003, Oasis along with Christ Church & Upton Chapel united to form Church.co.uk in Waterloo, London. Alongside a number of activities that run throughout the week, including running clubs, Southside radio station, football teams, befriending services and extensive youth and children's work, there is an 11am Sunday morning service and a gathering at 6.30pm on a Sunday which is more informal and creative. Church.co.uk is now a growing network of Christian communities around the country which share the same values. Further "Church.co.uk" network churches have developed running alongside the communities of the Oasis Academies in Salford, Oldham, Brightstowe, Bristol, Enfield, Southampton(Lord's Hill & Mayfield), Immingham and Wintringham. [2]

The Church.co.uk network have three goals and five values which they practice daily. These goals are to be 24/7, Global and Holistic and the values are: Inclusion, Interdependence, Intimacy, Involvement and Influence

Christ Church was rebuilt on a smaller scale in the late 1950s and early 1960s, following the destruction of the original church during the Second World War, and was combined with Upton Chapel (Baptist), which had also been destroyed during the war (the Lambeth Road Upton Chapel had been built in 1862, providing a purpose-built chapel for baptist meetings that had been originated in 1785 by James Upton).

Today the chapel is known in this combined form, as Christ Church & Upton Chapel United Reformed, and more recently as Church.co.uk, Waterloo following its association with the Oasis Trust (the aims of the Oasis Trust are to provide and support education, housing, health care and employment across the world, as well as support and leadership to local churches).

JeSoul:

^In-law, got it. Sorry just put your name there first in front of 'and others' randomly.

Oyaa . . . Tonye and others 

JeSoul:

^Phew! okay I'm not crazy. lol.
Gbam! that is what I thought you were saying. And from what I have been thinking you're saying - it would even appear that we (with all these online discussions and questioning of the established 'church' denominations/practices) are all part of this emerging church? (pls tell me if I'm going off).

Enigma:

Nne, you know I was going to make a post asking abi whether you mixed my posts up with that of someone else (and "heaven forfend" ---- then I thought better of it and deleted it before hitting the click button.

PS my post about Billy Graham that I referred to was actually made in late 2005 (I just checked)

Re Steve Chalke, he used to be more frequent on regular UK TV (including popular/populist programmes like Songs of Praise) years ago and is well known in UK Evangelical Circles.

Pastor AIO:


Exactly!  This is something that is just happening and there is no one that is 'leading' us here on NL to ask those questions.  I was not even aware that there was such a thing as the 'emerging conversation' until about a couple of weeks ago.  I thought that I was all alone.  Well . . . not all alone but you get what I mean.  I didn't realise that it was prominent enough for people to give it a name.  But I was aware that there was something brewing.  I just didn't know to what extent.

It seems that some peoples mechanistic idea of the trinity “It cannot be separated in any way” is behind at least part of the disagreement with penal substitution which is rampant these days. Spurgeon would have had exactly the same things to say about the people today who deny the plain teaching of scripture that Christ bore in his body the punishment due for our sin. And yes, Steve Chalke is among the number of those who deny this teaching (follow the link for more information)

Last night I had a late night google talk conversation who’s identity will remain secret to protect the guilty (unless he chooses to unveil himself!)

I batted around the plain notion that Jesus became sin “For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2 Cor 5:21). This blogging friend of mine said something like “Jesus somehow took sinful man into God and reconcilled them”, to which I strongly disagreed since the bible plainly says that Jesus became sin.

We discussed Romans 1 and the wrath of God, Romans 3 and the fact that simply leaving sin un punished is not possible if God is to be just. Again, the blogger wriggled. It seemed the notion of an actively angry and yes vengeful God was just too much for him. But the bible plainly teaches the terrible wrath of God. If it wasnt poured out on Jesus then the wrath of God still exists towards me.

It is only possible for God to forgive and lay aside his anger against us because he has punished sin in Christ. He can only accept us because he actively rejected Christ on the cross.

THE MEANING OF THE DEATH OF CHRIST

What did the death of Christ achieve? For whom did Christ die? In attempting to answer these questions about the atonement from Calvin’s own statements in the Institutes we shall show that Calvin subscribed to three key ideas. The first is that Christ’s death procured actual remission. On his view there are some people whose sins Christ actually remitted by his death. In the second place, all the elect, and they alone, have their sins actually remitted by the death of Christ. That is to say, the effect of the death of Christ is to atone for the sins of a definite number of people (and in this sense it is proper to speak of limited atonement). The third key idea is that Calvin expressly teaches that it was the intention of Christ, in dying, to procure an atonement for the elect. The salvation of the elect is something that can be directly related to what Christ by his death intended.

Zikkyy:

I like to ask, is this (perfection of saints) likely to occur in anybody's life time?

I think these offices were more useful in the era of the apostles, why? there were no NT documentations at the time Teachings were based on the knowledge of the apostles.

Pastor AIO:

I hope you understand that Jesus was talking about fellowship there and the importance of it for worship and for acheiving goals.  Even where there is nobody around Christ is there too.  

[/quote]

It's an issue of authority. If you're born again , you have authority. You can make demands . It's your right.

[quote]Agreed, but it doesn't say that the church meetings must be colossal affairs in great big buildings.  2 or 3 people can encourage and warn each other.  In fact in a big institution you are more likely to get lost in the crowd and nobody knows your business and nobody encourages or upbraids you.

I said:Besides you are still lost on this idea that the church is a building and a man made institutions. To which you respond.I said you were lost in the idea of church being an building and man made institution because you say things like this:I understand that where there are christians there is church, cos christians are the church.  So how can there be no church around where there are 2 neighbours who are christians, unless you mean something different by church.  The only other thing that I can imagine you are saying is that there is no registered church with a building and an institutional 'structure and purpose'.  Am I wrong?  If so, please correct me.

Sir, you said one has to be called to be in the ministry.  I happen to know that you are in a ministry.  I asked you what the criteria was for knowing that you are called.  This is another of the many questions I've been asking of you since and I am yet to receive a response to any of them.  What better way to demonstrate the criteria of knowing you are called than you use yourself as an example.  If you find it too personal can you then simply tell us in general terms how one is to know that he is called and how the rest of us are to know too. I don't think that has left the topic at all, you brought it up right within the topic.
Okay o, leave that part.

I can see that this is going to be a sticking point for you if I don't answer it, even though it is one of the things that I was determined not to answer on NL.  
I am C of E, denominationally speaking.  Happy?  

You are saying that the purpose of the church is to build the church.  I guess you're right.   And the purpose of a dog is to be a dog.  and the purpose of dinner is to dine.  Let us have dinner in order to dine.  
Menh, you are just talking abstract nonsense.  'perfecting saints into maturity'.  What do mature saints do?  What does the church do?  Did Jesus not say that the kingdom will be like a grea
t tree when matured and even the birds will find shelter under it?

Joagbaje:

Thst still doesnt make ip for pastoral role.Children who grow up by themselves on the street can't be compared to children who are raised and guided by parents

[quite]
19Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. 20For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Matthew 18
It's an issue of authority. If you're born again , you have authority. You can make demands . It's your right.

It's not about the size, it's obout oversight. God leads by the head. Gives direction. Guides. Etc. The holyghost lead the church through ministry gift offices. We may have fragments of small group meetings. But still be part of a whole under a head. The headship thing is want Satan is fighting. One of the things the spirit of zgod will want to teach anyone first is how to be under authority. I have come across many people,ladies particularly who co stanly have problems in relationship . Many as I discovered who grew up alone find it hard to submit to anyone because they never had anyone who raised them up. They contend with authorities . That's what happens to many people who haven't been spiritually raised also. They want freedom because they can't be under spiritual authorities . They rather attack spiritual authorities .

1 Peter 5:5
Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. [size=15pt]Yea, all of you be subject one to another,[/size] and be clothed with humility: for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble.

Hebrews 13:17
Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

I have come across many people,ladies particularly who co stanly have problems in relationship .

There are offices in the body to perfect the church. Especially the office of the pastor. A christian can't be the pastor to his neighbour. It is an office .

There are three or four kinds of pastors but I will sumarise two. The first one are those who are called in a spectacular way, like Saul , by vision, by the voice of God etc. There are others who may not hear a voice but just have strong burden for people , growth, care, they just have passion and burden for others to help them grow, and these people ,no matter their vocation,job or business ,they have more fulfilment in counselling people and helping them grow. It is a sign of a call most probably. some are called to be under shepherd . They function as shepherd under another.

1 Timothy 3:1
This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.


People like Timothy,Titus ,pricilla and Aquila fall into this category they didn't receive call in a spectacular way they may have jobs and businesses but given such pastoral responsibility because of the grace and burden upon them for people.

Philippians 2:19-21
But I trust in the Lord Jesus to send Timotheus shortly unto you, that I also may be of good comfort, when I know your state. 20 For I have no man likeminded, who will naturally care for your state. 21 For all seek their own, not the things which are Jesus Christ's.

What is C of E?

Don't use logic for spiritual things .The church is perfected for work of ministry.spiritual maturity is for responsibility. the church ordained to edify itself . And also we have the responsibility of evangelism . Turning men from darkness to light

Evangelism Is the primary responsibility of the church. We are edifiied to reach the world for Christ.