^^

Na wah! Talk about shooting ones self in the gonads

God Himself seems to be actively involved in this "exposure" of lies, deceit and manipulation.

Pastor AIO:

Nothing you have said above tells me why the only place you are allowed to worship is in a registered church building.
Yes, I've heard that this is a common problem in Christ Embasssy. 

Very funny.Dnt divert issues Leave CE out of the discussion,

Please you didn't answer my question of whether the Lutheran reformation was a rebellion.  And also whether all the subsequent protestant movements were rebellions, and if not, then tell me, what head where they following? 

The reformations were the workings of God. And it was an upward advancement . Because there was a problem , the church lost touch with the holy spirit. In the dark ages.The bible was not allowed to be read . The workings of the holy spirit was out of the church. Gifts of the spirit was out. Teachings of the bible was out. Speaking in tongues was out. Healings and miracles Were out of the church.teaching of Faith was out.  The church was as good as dead. The reformation were the workings of God. That broght about faith, holy spirit , bible teaching. And understudying of salvation. So gradually the church is getting back to fulfil it's purpose. Your campaign is a detour from Gods principles of the bible . It is not an advancement. But a detour. You see the deference? The reformations were additions but this one is has not direction nothing to add. It's a stray bullet.

But can a pastor have a neighbour that is a christian?

Why not that's a funny question.

  Please answer that question and then tell me if your reasoning in the above quote makes sense.  If you insist that it makes sense then please break it down for me because it sounds like tongues to me.

Having a pastor as a neighbour doesn't make the man your pastor.  If you're a woman ,is every husband your husband. A pastor has a people he leads. He doesn't have pastoral leadership over every christian . Except they submit to him then he becomes a pastor over that person.

This sounds like what I say when I say that christians, all christians, should pastor one another.

Submitting to one another is not anarchy . It is service. We serve one another. But for submission,Every one submit to the person he needs to submit to in the triangle . It's like saying every one should find his level or find his place.everyone  Submit to the leader above him.

1 Peter 5:5. (GW)
5 Likewise, you who are younger and of lesser rank, be subject to the elders (the ministers and spiritual guides of the church)--[giving them due respect and yielding to their counsel]. Clothe (apron) yourselves, all of you, with humility [as the garb of a servant, so that its covering cannot possibly be stripped from you, with freedom from pride and arrogance] toward one another. For God sets Himself against the proud (the insolent, the overbearing, the disdainful, the presumptuous, the boastful)--[and He opposes, frustrates, and defeats them], but gives grace (favor, blessing) to the humble.

Sure pastor will handlle this mattter well but I wonder who Oyaks submits to. And Oyedepo too

@joagbaje
That version of scripture you quoted from (GW) is definitely a very poor and mis-leading translation. What does it mean by "lower rank" in a church? Is it the same church that Jesus said we are all equals? Or is it the same church that James said we should not discriminate amongst ourselves? Yet a bible version is deliberately using terms that is anti-ethical to the church and baby teeth joagbaje is gleefully quoting from it just becos it suits your dubious agenda. Even if you want to be honest the second part of that 1 peter passage you quoted out of context also instructs church leaders not to lord it over their members, you cannot quote one part without the other respect in church is mutual. No oga and No servant. We are all equal. It is only agents of the devil like Oyaks that are beneath the rest of us 'ordinary' members of the body christ.

^^^^ He is pathetically and notoriously devious with his use of Bible versions/translations.

KunleOshob:

@joagbaje
That version of scripture you quoted from (GW) is definitely a very poor and mis-leading translation. What does it mean by "lower rank" in a church? Is it the same church that Jesus said we are all equals? Or is it the same church that James said we should not discriminate amongst ourselves? Yet a bible version is deliberately using terms that is anti-ethical to the church and baby teeth joagbaje is gleefully quoting from it just becos it suits your dubious agenda. Even if you want to be honest the second part of that 1 peter passage you quoted out of context also instructs church leaders not to lord it over their members, you cannot quote one part without the other respect in church is mutual. No oga and No servant. We are all equal. It is only agents of the devil like Oyaks that are beneath the rest of us 'ordinary' members of the body christ.

You are human being, your wife is a human being like wise your children. But are you their head in the home or not? And if you a head in the home does it make you lord? If you can answer in honesty problem is solved.

Joagbaje:

You are human being, your wife is a human being like wise your children. But are you their head in the home or not? And if you a head in the home does it make you lord? If you can answer in honesty problem is solved.

To be honest, in spite of the other shenanigans that he has tried to pull, I would agree that he actually has a point here. I believe that a natural leader emerges out of any situation that a group find itself in. This is a natural fact of social species. You'll find it amongst apes in the jungle, you'll find it amongst a pack of wolves etc . . .

If there are a group of people going on a trek. It is the person that knows the way that will be the leader. However if there is suddenly an accident bringing about a medical emergency then it is the doctor amongst them that will assume the leadership role. He will give orders that even the previous leader will have to jump to. etc.
A man might be head of his house, but the woman will be the head of the kitchen if she is a housewife. If she tells the husband not to use a certain plate, he has to obey because she is telling him for his own good (presumably).
In a military emergency the generals of a democratic country assume more of a leadership role. They can tell the president to commandeer all the other resources and industries in the country towards the military goal and the rest of the country will have to jump to the order.

However this constant shift of social rank from one circumstance to another can be stifled and distorted by Official Ranks. There is a tendency for someone who is the leader in one situation to seek to maintain the rank through into another situation. I just because human beings love rank. So there is an inbuilt inertia in the ranking systems of society. Sometimes we get a situation whereby pastors are consulted on medical matters. Some as consulted on financial matters. I still remember a sermon I once heard where the pastor was telling the audience how to invest in the housing market in order to build up equity. This was about a year or so before the housing market collapsed. I wonder whether anyone who took his advice is swearing for him now. He was just using his carnal mind to pass on the conventional wisdom on to his poor unsuspecting audience. And some would call that pastoring!!

I've been in situations myself where people turn to me for advice on matters that I know nothing about just because I demonstrated superior knowledge on another issue entirely. Everybody has a gift, and a divine calling, and in matters related to that calling they are authorities and leaders. They should stay within the limits of that calling. Those who know how to paint should serve God with their paintbrush, they can use it to minister to people, to pastor people. Those who know herbs can also be pastors to people with their healing abilities. Those who can sing can use that to pastor people. Those who know how to organise events, and understand business administration can also use that to be of service to people. These are all gifts (Charis). Not everybody can do these things.

This inertia in society that causes the administrator to still want to call the shots when it is time to lead a chorus simply because he doesn't feel like stepping into the background is wrong.

@Joagbaje
Even as the head of the home, a man is not meant to lord it over his wife. He should treat her with love and respect. The case of children is different as you are still training them. However this is a poor analogy to use as it is obvious even on this forum that a lot of christians know the bible/the word of God far better than a lot of so called pastors like you. I for instance stopped attending my former church cause I knew I had nothing to benefit from the Pastor's shallow/twisted understanding of the scriptures. A couple of weeks ago I was invited for a thanksgiving service in a Redeemed Church. I was appalled by the Pastors poor understanding of scriptures. I also observed in a number of instances he deliberately twisted scriptures like you to fit his agenda. Why should I subject myself to such offensive teachings or submit myself to such a pastor

Joagbaje:



The reformations were the workings of God. And it was an upward advancement . Because there was a problem , the church lost touch with the holy spirit. In the dark ages.The bible was not allowed to be read . The workings of the holy spirit was out of the church. Gifts of the spirit was out. Teachings of the bible was out. Speaking in tongues was out. Healings and miracles Were out of the church.teaching of Faith was out.  The church was as good as dead. The reformation were the workings of God. That broght about faith, holy spirit , bible teaching. And understudying of salvation. So gradually the church is getting back to fulfil it's purpose. Your campaign is a detour from Gods principles of the bible . It is not an advancement. But a detour. You see the deference? The reformations were additions but this one is has not direction nothing to add. It's a stray bullet.

So can I take this as your answer to my question of where was the Holy spirit prior to Luther's revolution? The Holy Spirit was as good as dead. There was no living church. yes?

What about my other questions?
How did CEC receive the apostolic tradition? Through what line.

Pastor AIO:


What about my other questions?
How did CEC receive the apostolic tradition?  Through what line.

Pls let's stop deviating from topics to CEC.  If you want to deal with CEC issues ,you can open a separate thread and let all CEC s come and answer.

KunleOshob:

Even as the head of the home, a man is not meant to lord it over his wife. He should treat her with love and respect. The case of children is different as you are still training them.

BEAUTIFUUULLL! That's precisely the issue with church leadership. And it will be hypocritical if you as a head and leader in the home expect you household to submit to your authority and yet . Talking against submission to leadership in the house of God or that matter.

However this is a poor analogy to use as it is obvious even on this forum that a lot of christians know the bible/the word of God far better than a lot of so called pastors like you.

When you get hooked, stop attacking me. Focus on the topic

I for instance stopped attending my former church cause I knew I had nothing to benefit from the Pastor's shallow/twisted understanding of the scriptures.

Thats another point. And my take is, you don't stop going to church because of a problem. A problem has solution. Martin Luther tried his best to make known by the scripture what he perceived as error he sought answers .  He Didn't just pull out. If you never discuss issues how donyou know who is wrong? You or him? And if you have to leave a church, why not go to another where the word is well taught. instead of staying at home.

A couple of weeks ago I was invited for a thanksgiving service in a Redeemed Church. I was appalled by the Pastors poor understanding of scriptures. I also observed in a number of instances he deliberately twisted scriptures like you to fit his agenda.

I don't twist scriptures . I reveal clearly what scripture says. And everyone who is sound in the bible should know that. It is only those who get uncomfortable by the light of truth that call it names .

Why should I subject myself to such offensive teachings or submit myself to such a pastor

Were you ever submitted to any ? . submission doesn't come naturally , we learn it by the word.

Joagbaje:


I don't twist scriptures . I reveal clearly what scripture says. And everyone who is sound in the bible should know that. It is only those who get uncomfortable by the light of truth that call it names .

@Joagbaje
There is nothing wrong with submitting to a pastor as long as the pastor does not take undue advantage of it and lord it over the sheep. Also there are a lot of qualities expected in a pastor and the pastor must be a good example. I for one can NEVER submit to a pastor like pastor chris who is a confirmed fraud and is also notorious for twisting scriptures. His understanding of scriptures is twisted and shallow Hence I have nothing to benefit from his leadership.

Maybe we ought first define who a pastor is AND who ought be consider-able for the post of pastor. David was a "good" shepherd. Was Korah? It would be nice too if we considered who is "supposed" to teach - it was easy for me to listen to Dad. Would it have been so easy to listen to the town drunk or village i-diot? Its like that in Church nowadays where the man on the pulpit is so dirty he can't get respect from the pews.

Any definitions? Anyone? Of course, Biblical support would be appreciated

I'll say the first thing to bear in mind is that a "pastor" in the sense in which Joagbaje is using it and even in the sense in which it is widely known is not really an essential part of Christianity. The manipulators should go and ask the Ethiopean eunuch who was his "pastor".

The second thing is that the offices of apostle, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers are for the entire, universal or catholic Church. It doesn't mean that each gathering, each ekklesia had a prophet, apostle, evangelist or pastor or even teacher.

Consider Romans 16

5 Greet also the church that meets at their house.

Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia.

Will that "church" have necessarily had a "pastor", prophet or apostle --- or, as an office, an "evangelist"?.


The "apostles" were the apostles identified in the Bible as the foundation people for the spreading of the gospel. The apostles were given for the universal church. (All those arrogant nonces today calling themselves apostles are just deceiving themselves)

As far as "evangelists" are concerned, all are charged with the commission of preaching the gospel though unquestionably some, like Paul, are charged with that role in a particular manner. As far as "prophets" are concerned, God can put his spirit on anyone to prophesy; he said I will pour out my spirit and your sons will prophesy; even before that he made an a.s.s prophesy (come to think of it many of today's "prophets" are no better than a.sses anyway); so even in a gathering of two or three, God could use one or even all to prophesy.

As far as pastors and teachers are concerned, the biblical pattern anyway is that you had a collection of elders ---- remember that biblically, "pastor" = "elder" and also = "bishop" ------ and having such a collection in joint leadership helps to prevent abuse. Even in the council at Jerusalem it was clear that the leadership was collective albeit James acted as spokesman on that occasion. Compare these days how m-industries are associated with one particular head honcho! How many of us can name the number two to any of Adeboye, Oyedepo, Oyakhilome, Joshua or any of these other charlatans!

Joagbaje:

I don't twist scriptures . I reveal clearly what scripture says. And everyone who is sound in the bible should know that. It is only those who get uncomfortable by the light of truth that call it names .

Joagbaje, Enigma, Aletheia, Nuclearboy, JeSoul and other Christians, can we create a new thread where we can discuss Joagbaje's convictions and our own convictions and carefully examine them side by side with scriptures? No insults or personal attacks? When the convictions are compared, we can leave the matter for the observer to judge?

Such a thread can be a useful future reference point for later discussions, and might actually help prevent misunderstandings.

Please R.S.V.P. if you will attend, and JeSoul can help us kick off the thread like the former "interview".

I will attend. Joagbaje will you attend and not abandon? Will the other guys attend?

P.S. Please correct me if such a thread already exists, in case I'm mistaken.

Inesqor

I think perhaps now we shouldn't do another thread calling Joagbaje out for discussion. That kind of thread is different from one just listing his stuff plus links to where to find them.

I think calling him out just fuels his sense of self importance; I would rather fight his poison whereever I see it or whereever I deem it fit to bring it up.

Inesqoor

InesQor:

Joagbaje, Enigma, Aletheia, Nuclearboy, JeSoul and other Christians, can we create a new thread where we can discuss Joagbaje's convictions and our own convictions and carefully examine them side by side with scriptures? No insults or personal attacks? When the convictions are compared, we can leave the matter for the observer to judge?

Some people can't do without insult. But if it's to make my impute on topics , I will do my own and go.

Enigma:

; I would rather fight his poison whereever I see it or whereever I deem it fit to bring it up.

You don't have to "FIGHT" my poison. Of course I have a poison to kill Ignorance and false doctrines. You are busy spreading your own poison ,I should be free to spread mine.Let's deal on topics an not person. Dont make me an object. You are giving me self importance.

Okay, Enigma, maybe a directory will work then.

I have created it as a journal so that I won't get interesting [/b]replies while I do my thing jeje-ly over time.

[b]Directory Of Religion Board Links To Incredible Assertions On Christianity.

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-696672.0.html

This is a directory of religion board links to incredible assertions on Christianity,  It will grow steadily, as surely as I have a little time here and there.

It will make it easy to refer to any of the assertions whenever I or others want to make proper references without misquoting a poster on the Religion Board.

I am making this a journal because I don't want any other posts in the thread. Enjoy.

This will take a long time. . .  let's go!!!

RSS feed, if you want to follow the posts: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/rss/all/topic-696672

My signature has been updated with the link, for easy reference. Sorry for the digression, Pastor AIO.

Joagbaje:

It continues from one level of glory to a higher level of glory till Jesus comes.

I don’t understand. There been a lot of saints post crucifixion. Are you saying they died without attaining perfection

Joagbaje:

They had scriptures to read. Paul told Timothy to study. Paul himself studied till he died.

NT scriptures I don’t think so. Probably OT related scriptures. The gospel was not documented at the time, so there was need for these offices. I think the role of the (genuine) pastor has diminished somewhat, with Paul’s (& other apostles) teachings now readily available to all.

Joagbaje:

It's like role of parents . You don't become parents by study . It's an office . You lead ,teach guide the children.

What and how you teach the child is usually influenced by a number of factors. It's not the same for the modern day pastor. i.e the pastor relies on teachings/stories from the bible. If the parent have to rely on a ’how to be the perfect child’ manual/book readily available in any book store, there is nothing preventing the child from purchasing this manual and reading it himself.

Joagbaje:

Ministry is of the holyghost. In our ever changing world, ministry also has evolved.

evolved ke you mean holyghost was not involved back in the days what has changed

Joagbaje:

We have modern day apostles still perfecting the saints in the post modern society

‘Modern day apostles’ are still perfecting modern day saints, no wahala But at what level of glory? Lower or higher than that of the apostle Paul I would say lower cos they still rely on the teachings of the Paul & co. No way can you be better than your teacher

@Inesqor:

I am NOT about assertions - if Joagbaje wants, let him say he healed God of blindness yesterday - his IPad, his fingers, his ridicule, MY laughter!

What I'm about is what manner of man has moral right to teach God's "People"? We all know that nobody is perfect but do the Scriptures allow thieves, liars, pedophiles etc to be God's Shepherds? What manner of men were the Apostles? Did any of the "examples" we have from the scriptures live the type of life our "pulpit apostles" of today live?

That's what I would have wished to see in the hope it would make some look in the mirror

The "emergent church" = tares among the wheat. They will both grow till the harvest.

davidylan:

The "emergent church" = tares among the wheat. They will both grow till the harvest.

Expantiate please.

@nuclearboy: You are correct, I didn't think of it that way. . .

---

@Pastor AIO: I think Davidylan is making the mistake that JeSoul corrected. The Emergent Church (just, another, established, institution) and the emergent church are two different things.

Just like the Word of Faith and the word of faith are two different things, and not to be conflated.

@Pastor AIO

The size of the gathering has nothing to do with it's validity.

I partly disagree.

Luke 8:16-17
No one lights a lamp and then covers it with a bowl or hides it under a bed. A lamp is placed on a stand, where its light can be seen by all who enter the house. For all that is secret will eventually be brought to the open, and everything that is concealed will be brought to light and made known to all.

Small gatherings are good for bible study or cell fellowships. But the church which is the replica of how the angels worship in heaven is what I am talking about. I understand where you are coming from concerning the mayhem that goes on IN CHURCH.

Let us not lose sight of what the evil one is doing by causing division within the body of Christ. Divided we fall. The greater the number , the greater the influence in the community at large. We become a formidable force to reckon with. We gain politcal, economical and spiritual advantage.

I am for one Shepherd, one flock.

^^^^^^

Are you sure body of Christ need "political advantage"?

Yes political advantage help spread christianity (Constathine), but did Jesus need political advantage to spread or did he not just rely on the power of his words?

By the way, political advantage opens the "body" up to corruption and collusion.

Pls correct me if I am wrong.

Are you sure body of Christ need "political advantage"?

Why not?

What is politics?

a process by which groups of people make collective decisions.

Therefore if the christian brethens come together to form a political party or have influence within the political elite, won't the world be a better place to live?

By the way, political advantage opens the "body" up to corruption and collusion.

That is if the body allows itself to be corrupted.

Secondly, imagine if the christians come together and vote into goverment a leader who is God fearing. What a delight that will be in a place like naija

Erm yommyuk, careful and softly softly

Obasanjo, Bush jr, Tony Blair?

By the way, on small churches, the Bible itself says not to denigrate little beginnings. I also referred earlier to Romans 16

5 Greet also the church that meets at their house.

Greet my dear friend Epenetus, who was the first convert to Christ in the province of Asia.

Consider also places like China and some Islamic countries where the Church necessarily has to be underground and the importance (as well as power, I daresay) of house churches.

yommyuk:

Why not?

What is politics?

a process by which groups of people make collective decisions.

Therefore if the christian brethens come together to form a political party or have influence within the political elite, won't the world be a better place to live?

That is if the body allows itself to be corrupted.

Secondly, imagine if the christians come together and vote into goverment a leader who is God fearing. What a delight that will be in a place like naija

Can you then mention one political party/institutions/organization or affliation that is/was not corrupt or open to collusion in history