I have established what I need to establish on this thread - for myself and no one else needs to agree with me.

Your message of "voluntary tithing" is deceitful and is in truth not much different from that of Joagabje or newmi --- the difference is that newmi was at least open and upfront with his position on a key issue. (It was always ever thus anyway whether as pilgrim.1 or as viaro)

From my perspective now, this thread is only useful for dealing with any misrepresentations of scripture or deception that I feel compelled to address.

It is a pity because you could make much better use of your abilities. All the best anyway.

To begin with, theology is of pagan origin. Albert Magnus and Thomas Aquinas worked out the first system of it by applying to religious discussion the logic of Aristotle, a pagan philosopher, who believed neither in the creation of the world nor the immortality of the soul. At best it was degenerate learning, based upon the theory that knowledge is gained by the mind working upon itself rather than upon matter or through sense perception. The world was, therefore, confused with the discussion of absurdities as it is today by those of prominent churchmen. By their peculiar "reasoning," too, theologians have sanctioned most of the ills of the ages. They justified the Inquisition, serfdom, and slavery. Theologians of our time defend segregation and the annihilation of one race by the other. They have drifted away from righteousness into an effort to make wrong seem to be right.

While we must hold the Negroes responsible for following these ignorant theorists, we should not charge to their account the origination of this nonsense with which they have confused thoughtless people. As said above, the Negro has been so busy doing what he is told to do that he has not stopped long enough to think about the meaning of these things. He has borrowed the ideas of his traducers instead of delving into things and working out some thought of his own. Some Negro leaders of these religious factions know better, but they hold their following by keeping the people divided, in emphasizing nonessentials the insignificance of which the average man may not appreciate. The "highly educated" Negroes who know better than to follow these unprincipled men have abandoned these popular churches.
While serving as the avenue of the oppressor's propaganda, the Negro church, although doing some good, has prevented the union of diverse elements and has kept the race too weak to overcome foes who have purposely taught Negroes how to quarrel and fight about trifles until their enemies can overcome them. This is the keynote to the control of the so-called inferior races by the self-styled superior. The one thinks and plans while the other in excited fashion seizes upon and destroys his brother with whom he should cooperate.

^ E miss road!

(RIP Abami ẹda)

The large majority of Negro preachers of today, then, are doing nothing more than to keep up the mediaeval hell-fire scare which the whites have long since abandoned to emphasize the humanitarian trend in religion through systematized education.

Enigma:

I have established what I need to establish on this thread - for myself and no one else needs to agree with me.

You're quite adept at evasive swings, Enigma. I remember you stating that you resent false accusations, yes? I have waited to see you man up and quote me for what you accused me falsely of having said - and all you do is evade that single request and sling mud? Nice.

No problem; do indeed feel free to consider me as evasive. It is neither here nor there now --- I have already confirmed conclusively for myself about your "voluntary tithing".

It is very clear, then, that if Negroes got their conception of religion from slaveholders, libertines, and murderers, there may be something wrong about it, and it would not hurt to investigate it. It has been said that the Negroes do not connect morals with religion. The historian would like to know what race or nation does such a thing. Certainly the whites with whom the Negroes have come into contact have not done so.

Enigma:

No problem; do indeed feel free to consider me as evasive. It is neither here nor there now --- I have already confirmed conclusively for myself about your "voluntary tithing".

Your choice, really - even if based on false allegations. That's grand.

logic101:

It is very clear, then, that if Negroes got their conception of religion from slaveholders, libertines, and murderers, there may be something wrong about it, and it would not hurt to investigate it. It has been said that the Negroes do not connect morals with religion. The historian would like to know what race or nation does such a thing. Certainly the whites with whom the Negroes have come into contact have not done so.

Enigma:

I have established what I need to establish on this thread - for myself and no one else needs to agree with me.

Your message of "voluntary tithing" is deceitful and is in truth not much different from that of Joagabje or newmi --- the difference is that newmi was at least open and upfront with his position on a key issue. (It was always ever thus anyway whether as pilgrim.1 or as viaro)

From my perspective now, this thread is only useful for dealing with any misrepresentations of scripture or deception that I feel compelled to address.

It is a pity because you could make much better use of your abilities. All the best anyway.

You didn't establish anything. You are the one shifting grounds. What was you guys claim before ? That tithing is wrong and refers to children of God who gives tithes asMugus.

this world is full of "unbelieving" believers!

^^^
Unbelieving believers who don't believe in the tithing scam.

let every man be fully persuaded in his heart,all things are pure to those who think they are, and i respect those who feel the way they feel, to me its not a scam, it works for me,

@wordtalk,
You are relentless,  Welldone.
I told you that they have a mindset and they do everything to wear you out.


@OP,
It is obvious even to a baby that the allegations from those against tithing have no basis and hence they never had a good come-back when challenged. They keep running away and shifting positions.

As far as I can see, those against tithing are unsure in their hearts and are seeking every imaginable way to back up themselves.
Trying all they can to show they tithe without wanting to use the word.
I really wonder why they cannot leave those that give their 10 percent in peace and go ahead to give their 'far, far, far more than 10%'. This is something the Pharisees would have said. Straining at a gnat.

Funnily, there is no problem with tithing, what we have are people who have a problem with tithe.

Personally I think some of the grouses here go beyond this thread and as such I many not be able to fully understand the context.

For myself, I prefer to keep an open mind - as I haven't seen any evidence of duplicity (nothing beyond a reluctance to commit on an issue) as long as everyone is permitted to make up their own minds on an issue, I have no concerns.

People defend their views for a myriad of reasons, but I attempt to fathom those beyond what is for my benefit. As long as we permit people freedom to express their views and choose for themselves, I think we are on the right path.

Joagbaje:

You didn't establish anything. You are the one shifting grounds. What was you guys claim before ? That tithing is wrong and refers to children of God who gives tithes asMugus.

Look at this fraud  

We have already established the fraud of your own explanation of tithing before  ---- that one no be issue.

What I have established here is that the new style of "voluntary" tithing is another fraud afterall ----  it is not truly voluntary.

Diafor ---- unless the teaching of tithing,, especially "voluntary tithing",  allows the "tither" to give whatever he likes (not being money) anywhere he likes (not being church) both your own wayo and this new "voluntary" tithing are fraudulent. Una all similarly be wayo.  

And yes, mugu plenty for dis world (along with honest misinformed people), dat's why there is still business for una tithe mongers.

@debosky,
I think you are right.
It is more of an 'I won' 'You lost' mentality.
We should not allow personal sentiments becloud our judgement.

@ debosky

One question: do you reaaally think garyarnold believes people should be tithing from trash can?

^^^ My friend debosky don disappear oh; enuwe, if you get time make you try provide honest answer to dis my last kweshion.


Meanwhile at Joagbaje who accuses me of shifting grounds, for your enjoyment here is part of a post of mine yesterday from another thread https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-741528.0.html#msg8987158

It says the same thing as I have been saying basically on this forum since 2005 ---- show me wetin shift inside. 

Let me sum up my position first and then demonstrate its difference from viaro's or wordtalk's

1. What the Bible teaches for Christians is voluntary GIVING.

2. Tithing, as an obligation, has been abolished for Christians ---- certainly in the Bible and in the New testament.

3. A Christian can choose voluntarily to do his giving voluntarily in the form of "tithing"

4. I can just about tolerate "tithing" being taught by preachers but only as totally voluntary

5 Now this is key: voluntary tithing means that the tither can choose not to give the tithe in/to church --- but outside the church to widows etc

6. On the other hand, tithing is taught widely and overwhelmingly at least erroneously and quite often fraudulently as obligatory; that I challenge or condemn.


The difference with viaro and wordtalk

I await to see viaro and wordtalk who claim to preach voluntary tithing accept that the "voluntary" tithing can be given anywhere but in/to "church"; e.g. that the "voluntary" tithing can be given to e.g. widows, orphans etc.

It is a very very very significant difference!

Joagbaje:

What was you guys claim before ? That tithing is wrong and refers to children of God who gives tithes asMugus.

Anybody that submits to your fraud scheme is a mugu that has not changed.

@ Enigma,
I wonder why after saying the below, you have still not allowed the matter to rest:

Enigma:

I have established what I need to establish on this thread - for myself and no one else needs to agree with me.

Looking for who to agree with you?

Also wonder why you have become garyarnolds spokes person? Does the question you asked even make sense to you?

Enigma:

@ debosky

One question: do you reaaally think garyarnold believes people should be tithing from trash can?

Garyarnold has not withdrawn the statement, but you expect someone else to know if he reaaally meant that?
Are you garyarnold?

^^^ Look I don't have time for you --- you didn't notice I simply ignored your posts. In the past, did you not similarly run, avoid, evade etc just like your two champions Joagbaje and wordtalk? They are bigger fry than you --- so go siddon. 

Enigma:

^^^ Look I don't have time for you --- you didn't notice I simply ignored your posts. In the past. did you not similarly run, avoid, evade etc just like your two champions Joagbaje and wordtalk? They are bigger fry than you --- so go siddon. 

Well too bad, you should have kept ignoring it,
No one ran, it was questions in this fashion you asked, questions with no meaning,
Whatever you feel, don't let bitterness reign in your heart and stop keeping malice.
It's childish

Oh and also on this page alone, it shows all the baseless allegations you made that when you were challenged you started acting non-chalant. Did you respond when you were put in the spot?
You are not looking for anyone to agree with you now, so why are you still trying to chum up to Debosky?

^^^ Thanks for the advice on malice - BUT point a mirror at yourself, look at your snide posts not just on this thread but similarly in the past then ask who is keeping malice?

Enigma:

unless the teaching of tithing,, especially "voluntary tithing",  allows the "tither" to give whatever he likes (not being money) anywhere he likes (not being church) both your own wayo and this new "voluntary" tithing are fraudulent. Una all similarly be wayo.  

You expect pastor to tell congregation that they can give their tenth anywhere/anyhow they like you know that's not possible. How will pastor chop

^^^ My brother na de problem be dat oh ---- and also na de problem with the new fraud of "voluntary tithing",

On another note the more this debate on "voluntary tithing" has gone on, the more it has strengthened for me my own personal theory as to the possible ulterior motives for the charade of "voluntary" tithing!

Enigma:

^^^ Thanks for the advice on malice - BUT point a mirror at yourself, look at your snide posts not just on this thread but similarly in the past then ask who is keeping malice?

You are welcome.
Really, I make snide commnents? Oh I am sorry if any comment I made to you was interpreted as snide. If you interprete keeping silence to questions that have either been answered or don't make sense to me as malice, then so be it. It is your opinion, I won't change it.

Allegation again. You said you were 'ignoring my post if I noticed', did I ever tell you same? It's a forum now, no need to act up.
Since you have a strengthened theory I wonder why you are still so restless. Tithe is biblical and people are tithing.

Enigma:

^^^ My brother na de problem be dat oh ---- and also na de problem with the new fraud of "voluntary tithing",

On another note the more this debate on "voluntary tithing" has gone on, the more it has strengthened for me my own personal theory as to the possible ulterior motives for the charade of "voluntary" tithing!

There are just two (possible) tithers on around here that supports voluntary tithing namely; debosky & wordtalk and i think its personal to them. They are not in a position to push this as the standard definition or approach to tithing. So i don't really see it as an issue. It becomes an issue when it is preached (and not preached right). For me the main concern is still people like joagbaje & oyaks, for them tithing is do or die compulsory.

^^^The way I read it from the posts on this thread

1. In the case of debosky -- it does seem that "voluntary" truly means voluntary

2. In the case of wordtalk, I am certain that "voluntary" does not truly mean voluntary.

@Wordtalk
With recourse to most of your posts even in your previous incarnations and now your tithing website you are obviously very passionate about this tithing issue yet you deny being a beneficiary. Can you let us know what your interest in tithing is? Why are you so passionate about it even when you have admitted it is not a compulsory requirement for a christian?

Enigma:

@ debosky

One question: do you reaaally think garyarnold believes people should be tithing from trash can?

I don't - I think that was purely facetious.

That's not really my issue with gary's opinion - he is just a bit too forceful in demanding everyone provide numerous examples before they can share their opinion. I just don't think requiring everyone to do that is a reasonable expectation.

Different people will offer different views on the subject. As long as no one view/opinion is held up as the compulsory, definitive view for everyone to follow, then all should be free to express their own particular view without having to cover every possible example.

That's my only issue with gary.

Enigma:

1. In the case of debosky -- it does seem that "voluntary" truly means voluntary

yep

Enigma:

2. In the case of wordtalk, I am certain that "voluntary" does not truly mean voluntary.

yes, that's a possibility. and i've always had that feeling but i'll go with the position he has communicated we are not expecting him to come out here at a later date to say rendering a tenth to charity is not tithe. That's good enough for me.

As long as the modern day tithing remains a practice defined by man, it can take any form (it's all left to person rendering the tenth to decide or define). That's the way i see it. My position is that it should not be forced on anybody. e.g. the fraud motivated mis-interpretation of scriptures just to milk the 'juice' out of the congregation