jaephoenix:

What is the place of religions? What is its import to the society?

Religion has a place in our hearts and minds.

tctrills:

Religion has a place in our hearts and minds.

Lol.
I'm an atheist, and obviously don't use religion. What is the religion supposed to do for me?
Putting it succinctly, what are you gaining in religion that I'm not, apart from you losing money to your pastor every week?

jaephoenix:

Lol.
I'm an atheist, and obviously don't use religion. What is the religion supposed to do for me?
Putting it succinctly, what are you gaining in religion that I'm not, apart from you losing money to your pastor every week?

Well billions use and depend on it.

tctrills:

Well billions use and depend on it.

I realize theists love committing fallacies so much. This one is ad populum. Because billions believe it doesn't make it correct. People at a point believed witches caused diseases, some believed gods sent flood, some believed earth was flat. So it doesn't work like that

jaephoenix:

I realize theists love committing fallacies so much. This one is ad populum. Because billions believe it doesn't make it correct. People at a point believed witches caused diseases, some believed gods sent flood, some believed earth was flat. So it doesn't work like that

It's up to you to proof that it's wrong.
Yes so many wrong belief have been proven with time. That doesn't make the believe in God false.

tctrills:

It's up to you to proof that it's wrong.
Yes so many wrong belief have been proven with time. That doesn't make the believe in God false.

I have proven to you the Bible is scam. The stories were coined from Epic of Gilgamesh and other ancient texts. And there is no evidence they happened.
I don't know what you want me to prove again

jaephoenix:

I have proven to you the Bible is scam. The stories were coined from Epic of Gilgamesh and other ancient texts. And there is no evidence they happened.
I don't know what you want me to prove again

You have not proven the bible 5o be a scam and the stories are not coined from Gilgamesh.

tctrills:

You have not proven the bible 5o be a scam and the stories are not coined from Gilgamesh.

Alright this is gonna be long, but I'll try and summarize.

Below are the bible hypocrisies and contradictions
1. The first book on this list is Exodus 20:13 according to the Good News version which says "Do not commit murder."

On the same book, Exodus 32:27 says "And he said to them, Thus said the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor."

2. Genesis 32:30 says "Jacob said, I have seen God face-to-face, and I am still alive; so he named the place Peniel."

But John 1:18 says “No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known."

3. Ephesians 2: 8-9 says "For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God."

James 2:24 says "You observe that a person is justified through actions and not through faith alone."

4. Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

Job 1:1 says "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil."

5. Deuteronomy 27:22 says "Cursed is the one who lies with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen!’"

But according to Wikipedia, the Bible and other sources, Abraham and his sister Sarah were married and their marriage was blessed.

6. Matthew 10:34 says "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the world. No, I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

John 16:33 says "I have told you this so that you will have peace by being united to me. The world will make you suffer. But be brave! I have defeated the world!"

7. Proverbs 26:4 says "Don't answer a fool according to his foolishness, or you will be just like him."

Proverbs 26:5 says "Answer a fool according to his foolishness, or he will think himself to be wise."

8. Genesis 17:10 says "Here is my covenant that you are to observe, between me and you and your descendants: Every male among you is to be circumcised.”

Galatians 5:2 says "Listen! I, Paul, am telling you that if you allow yourselves to be circumcised, the Messiah will be of no benefit to you.”

Now, to explain more and not bore you, I have to say this.
The christian faith is centred on gospel of Jesus and Jewish history as narrated in the bible. The account of Jesus's life and all his theological teachings stem directly from the Genesis creation narrative, Noah flood, Israelite exodus, and Babylonia exile down to the birth of the so called messiah. But since it is found that many of the accounts have no basis in history, how come Christians still hold onto their faith? In the face of reality, vividly exposing that the accounts and narratives from Genesis till the end is fiction, and the characters captured in the entire bible are legends, on what exactly are Christians rooting their faith? Are Christians really trusting on folktales to bring them heaven/paradise they hope for?

The bible accounts, as interesting as it sound have no single basis in history. The creation story, many churches have accepted that it is metaphoric or philosophical which shouldn't be taken as happening at a historic time or place. The catholic and many Christian denominations admitted that the story of Adam and Eve is more allegorical, specially designed for theological purposes, without any basis in history. The Noah and the global flooding account too have no basis in history. Up till this moment, not a single shred of evidence have been found to buttress there was any global flooding on this planet. The global flooding and ark narration have so many parallels which further exposes the mythical nature of the account, having no basis in history. Up till date, no single shred of evidence have been presented that Noah or his Ark existed.

One of the story I loved back then as a child is the Exodus. The account detail Israelis enslavement in Egypt, emancipation by Moses, sojourn through the wilderness and the military campaign that rounded up Canaan. Findings have shown that the whole Exodus is pure work of fiction, not having any fact. There is no Moses, Israelite were never in or enslaved in Egypt, Pharaoh and his people were not plagued by any Yahweh, the Red sea was not parted, the wildernesses sojourn have no basis in history, and Canaan was not overran by Israel military forces. Archaeological evidence revealed that all the accounts about Israel in the bible is myth.

The monarchy reign of David and Solomon in the United kingdom of Israel is all false. Archaeological findings expose that Israel is a small clan in Canaan, having no king. There is no evidence or traces of the Solomon temple. The captivity by Babylon is more reconstructions of facts though. However, the bible rather provides half truth laced with propaganda which makes the whole account unacceptable as historical fact.

The Jesus account is majorly work of fiction. While many would argue that there is a historical personality known as Jesus as recorded by Apostle Paul, Gospels, and non Christian sources like Josephus and Tacitus, the fact remains that these are not eye witness account which can easily be dismissed. The earliest manuscript that recorded the person of Jesus is written somewhere around 60yrs after Jesus crucifixion. The gospel of Matthew, Luke and John all copied from accounts in the book of Mark. The authorship of the gospel of Mark is a subject if debate. However, the general consensus among the scholars is that whoever wrote the gospel of Mark is not providing an eye witness account but simply relaying heavily distorted traditions.

The Zombies invasion and the wingless ascension of Jesus is a popular incidence which would supposedly be witnessed by many people, but no one expect in the gospels wrote about it. Josephus and Tacitus mentioned that a person called Jesus or Christ but left out the major events recorded in the gospel. Josephus original writings has not been found, and scholars argued that the word 'Jesus' found in the Testimonium Flavianum is Christian interpolation. Tacitus was born 25yrs after the death of Jesus. None of this writings provided an eye witness account. They are majorly tradition with no factual basis.

The gospels have loads of inconsistency and contradictions. Apostle Paul admitted he learned the creed. As a matter of fact, Paul's sister and nephew were converted Christians before he converted. He also confessed he met with James and Peter for days, many years after his conversion. So it is nothing new, Paul converted base on tradition he was told to.

At a point, Paul questioned the basis of his faith, exactly what I wanted Christians to do. Apostle Paul, who didn't met Jesus or witnessed his death queried if Jesus truly died and resurrected. He questioned the historicity of Jesus crucifixion, noting with doubt that his faith and missionary job is in vain if peradventure there is no Jesus that died and resurrected. The inquiry furthermore buttressed that Paul only knew the traditional story of Jesus, and not the historical fact. Reason he added that one should find and stick to truth only.

My questions to people who are Christians, how do you keep onto faith knowing that all the narration recorded in the bible have no basis in history? Where exactly is the confidence of hope drawn from knowing that the Bible stories are fables having no substances in history? How can you strongly trust that a Jesus who never exist as accounted would take you to heaven/paradise? What is the basis of your faith; historical fairies or historical facts?

I can go on, but lemme pause and get more feedback from you

jaephoenix:

Alright this is gonna be long, but I'll try and summarize.

Below are the bible hypocrisies and contradictions
1. The first book on this list is Exodus 20:13 according to the Good News version which says "Do not commit murder."

On the same book, Exodus 32:27 says "And he said to them, Thus said the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor."

2. Genesis 32:30 says "Jacob said, I have seen God face-to-face, and I am still alive; so he named the place Peniel."

But John 1:18 says “No one has ever seen God. The only Son, who is the same as God and is at the Father's side, he has made him known."

3. Ephesians 2: 8-9 says "For by such grace you have been saved through faith. This does not come from you; it is the gift of God."

James 2:24 says "You observe that a person is justified through actions and not through faith alone."

4. Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

Job 1:1 says "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was blameless and upright, and one that feared God, and turned away from evil."

5. Deuteronomy 27:22 says "Cursed is the one who lies with his sister, the daughter of his father or the daughter of his mother. And all the people shall say, Amen!’"

But according to Wikipedia, the Bible and other sources, Abraham and his sister Sarah were married and their marriage was blessed.

6. Matthew 10:34 says "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the world. No, I did not come to bring peace, but a sword."

John 16:33 says "I have told you this so that you will have peace by being united to me. The world will make you suffer. But be brave! I have defeated the world!"

7. Proverbs 26:4 says "Don't answer a fool according to his foolishness, or you will be just like him."

Proverbs 26:5 says "Answer a fool according to his foolishness, or he will think himself to be wise."

8. Genesis 17:10 says "Here is my covenant that you are to observe, between me and you and your descendants: Every male among you is to be circumcised.”

Galatians 5:2 says "Listen! I, Paul, am telling you that if you allow yourselves to be circumcised, the Messiah will be of no benefit to you.”

These are verses you don't understand or verses you don't believe?

tctrills:

These are verses you don't understand or verses you don't believe?

Verses that clearly contradicted each other. How can a divinely inspired book be so full of contradictions and confusions?

jaephoenix:

Verses that clearly contradicted each other. How can a divinely inspired book be so full of contradictions and confusions?

Let's just say you don't understand the bible. I agree with you that it has some contradictions but that is expected from any text that has been in use for over 3000 years and has seen so many translations.Thr bible, both the old testament and new have been the most used text for a few thousand years.
While some see these few contradictions and decide it's false others see the entire message and it's blessings.

tctrills:

Let's just say you don't understand the bible. I agree with you that it has some contradictions but that is expected from any text that has been in use for over 3000 years and has seen so many translations.Thr bible, both the old testament and new have been the most used text for a few thousand years.
While some see these few contradictions and decide it's false others see the entire message and it's blessings.

Whoa. Theists are wonderfully made truly
I just showed verses clearly and succinctly contradicting each other, and your reply is I don't understand the Bible
Bro, can you show me my misunderstanding?
So you're now blaming the translators for the contradictions. Do you know that the original Greek versions have the same contradictions and errors? Lol

jaephoenix:

Whoa. Theists are wonderfully made truly
I just showed verses clearly and succinctly contradicting each other, and your reply is I don't understand the Bible
Bro, can you show me my misunderstanding?
So you're now blaming the translators for the contradictions. Do you know that the original Greek versions have the same contradictions and errors? Lol

I just explained it to you. You are not getting it. For a book to have been tampered with like the bible for over 3000 years and yet reflects its core message and integrity is super amazing. Again by reading the bible and understanding its message, you would understand most of the verses you find contradictory.

tctrills:

I just explained it to you. You are not getting it. For a book to have been tampered with like the bible for over 3000 years and yet reflects its core message and integrity is super amazing. Again by reading the bible and understanding its message, you would understand most of the verses you find contradictory.

Other 'holy books' have been translated and tampered it, doesn't make them any powerful. A book is as powerful as how its followers portray it. Qoran is powerful, as thought by Muslims. And they believe it cures all sickness etc. Same as Christians view the Bible. Same as other religions view their holy books. Its all paper

jaephoenix:

Other 'holy books' have been translated and tampered it, doesn't make them any powerful. A book is as powerful as how its followers portray it. Qoran is powerful, as thought by Muslims. And they believe it cures all sickness etc. Same as Christians view the Bible. Same as other religions view their holy books. Its all paper

No the qoran has remained in the same hands. The bible has moved from one owner to 6he other before becoming public property yet it's message is largely intact.

tctrills:

No the qoran has remained in the same hands. The bible has moved from one owner to 6he other before becoming public property yet it's message is largely intact.

Are you sure? Some books were removed entirely, verses cut etc. All these changes the meanings

...

jaephoenix:

Are you sure? Some books were removed entirely, verses cut etc. All these changes the meanings

Yes books were removed. But these do not change the meaning. We can argue that it reduces the amount of information that would otherwise be available to us. But the central message remains.
Let's look at it like a biology textbook. You may remove the chapter on ecology and reproduction but it still remains a valid biology textbook. The information therein would still be accepted as correct biology.
True a lot has been changed in the bible but some of us continue to appreciate the value it continues to offer.

tctrills:

Yes books were removed. But these do not change the meaning. We can argue that it reduces the amount of information that would otherwise be available to us. But the central message remains.
Let's look at it like a biology textbook. You may remove the chapter on ecology and reproduction but it still remains a valid biology textbook. The information therein would still be accepted as correct biology.
True a lot has been changed in the bible but some of us continue to appreciate the value it continues to offer.

Do you know the Bible is misogynistic and homophobic? It degrades women, murders and encourages slavery

jaephoenix:

Do you know the Bible is misogynistic and homophobic? It degrades women, murders and encourages slavery

Wrong. Homosexuality is a sin so even if it's becoming trending does not make it right.
Again God made man the head of the family and Gave women their roles. I understand this is no longer trendy but it is still right.
Also, slavery was practiced in bible times all over the world. Yet, it was bible believing Christians that challenged and ultimately ended slavery. The bible is about progress. We learn that God does not reveal all his truths at once. So don't expect the bible to cover all topics. The works and revelations of God continues even after the bible.

tctrills:


Wrong. Homosexuality is a sin so even if it's becoming trending does not make it right.
Again God made man the head of the family and Gave women their roles. I understand this is no longer trendy but it is still right.
Also, slavery was practiced in bible times all over the world. Yet, it was bible believing Christians that challenged and ultimately ended slavery. The bible is about progress. We learn that God does not reveal all his truths at once. So don't expect the bible to cover all topics. The works and revelations of God continues even after the bible.

The taking of female captives is encouraged by Moses in Numbers 31. After being instructed by Yahweh to take vengeance upon the Midianites, Moses tells the Israelites to kill the male children and nonvirgin females but take the young virgins for themselves

Misogynist quotes


1 Timothy 2:12 - "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."

Leviticus 15:20 : "And everything on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean. Everything also on which she sits shall be unclean

Exodus 21:7-11
7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do.



Nowhere in the Bible was slavery condemned. None.
Pro slavery quotes
Exodus 21:20-21
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result,
21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property

1 Timothy 6:1-2
1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered.
2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare of their slaves. These are the things you are to teach and insist on

Titus 2:9-10
9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them,
10 and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive

Ephesians 6:5
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ

Colossians 3:22
22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord

1 Timothy 6:1
1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered

1 Peter 2:18
18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

Your Bible even said to kill homosexuals. In as much as I dislike homosexuality, I won't let hands on them. But your all loving god, said to kill them.

I could go on all day, but if we were to abide by your Bible, we would be homophobic murderers

jaephoenix:


The taking of female captives is encouraged by Moses in Numbers 31. After being instructed by Yahweh to take vengeance upon the Midianites, Moses tells the Israelites to kill the male children and nonvirgin females but take the young virgins for themselves

Misogynist quotes


1 Timothy 2:12 - "I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet."

Leviticus 15:20 : "And everything on which she lies during her menstrual impurity shall be unclean. Everything also on which she sits shall be unclean

Exodus 21:7-11
7 “If a man sells his daughter as a servant, she is not to go free as male servants do.



Nowhere in the Bible was slavery condemned. None.
Pro slavery quotes
Exodus 21:20-21
20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result,
21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property

1 Timothy 6:1-2
1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered.
2 Those who have believing masters should not show them disrespect just because they are fellow believers. Instead, they should serve them even better because their masters are dear to them as fellow believers and are devoted to the welfare of their slaves. These are the things you are to teach and insist on

Titus 2:9-10
9 Teach slaves to be subject to their masters in everything, to try to please them, not to talk back to them,
10 and not to steal from them, but to show that they can be fully trusted, so that in every way they will make the teaching about God our Savior attractive

Ephesians 6:5
5 Slaves, obey your earthly masters with respect and fear, and with sincerity of heart, just as you would obey Christ

Colossians 3:22
22 Slaves, obey your earthly masters in everything; and do it, not only when their eye is on you and to curry their favor, but with sincerity of heart and reverence for the Lord

1 Timothy 6:1
1 All who are under the yoke of slavery should consider their masters worthy of full respect, so that God’s name and our teaching may not be slandered

1 Peter 2:18
18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh.

Your Bible even said to kill homosexuals. In as much as I dislike homosexuality, I won't let hands on them. But your all loving god, said to kill them.

I could go on all day, but if we were to abide by your Bible, we would be homophobic murderers

Like I told you, slavery was a universal practice at the time. There was nothing wrong with it.
God reveals himself to men according to the times. If you have read these verses a thousand years ago, they would have been perfectly ok to you. Why would you use the same measure to judge people who existed thousands of years ago. The commandments and revelations of God have always met the needs of the times.

tctrills:

Like I told you, slavery was a universal practice at the time. There was nothing wrong with it.
God reveals himself to men according to the times. If you have read these verses a thousand years ago, they would have been perfectly ok to you. Why would you use the same measure to judge people who existed thousands of years ago. The commandments and revelations of God have always met the needs of the times.

Lol. So yhwh changes his commandments and laws according to the prevailing culture and society. So maybe yhwh should edit the Bible to reflect the current society and laws, so as 'to meet the needs of the times'. And then in 500 years or so, version 3.0 should be out

jaephoenix:

Lol. So yhwh changes his commandments and laws according to the prevailing culture and society. So maybe yhwh should edit the Bible to reflect the current society and laws, so as 'to meet the needs of the times'. And then in 500 years or so, version 3.0 should be out

No he does not need to edit the bible. He has continued to reveal. Revelations did not end with the bible.
You should know that the bible is not just one book rather, it is a collection of God's revelations over a period of time.
God's revelations show the evolution in human society. To the first humans, the only commandment he gave was don't eat the fruit.
Then as man progressed, He continued to add laws and commandments cumulating in the ten commandments.
Then came Jesus Christ with more laws and commandments.
And when Jesus left, he promised to continue to teach through the Holy Ghost.

tctrills:

No he does not need to edit the bible. He has continued to reveal. Revelations did not end with the bible.
You should know that the bible is not just one book rather, it is a collection of God's revelations over a period of time.
God's revelations show the evolution in human society. To the first humans, the only commandment he gave was don't eat the fruit.
Then as man progressed, He continued to add laws and commandments cumulating in the ten commandments.
Then came Jesus Christ with more laws and commandments.
And when Jesus left, he promised to continue to teach through the Holy Ghost.

IMPORTANT QUESTION
Is your god Yahweh omniscient?

jaephoenix:

IMPORTANT QUESTION
Is your god Yahweh omniscient?

Is there a difference between Yahweh and Yahweh omniscient?

tctrills:

Is there a difference between Yahweh and Yahweh omniscient?

No. I'm asking if Yahweh is omniscient(all-knowing)?

jaephoenix:

No. I'm asking if Yahweh is omniscient(all-knowing)?

God has all knowledge.

tctrills:
God has all knowledge.

Fine.
So he knew Adam would fall for the tree if evil, but he still went ahead and planted it by him?
He knew the devil would deceive humanity but he still went ahead and created him?
Answer these 2 and I'll ask some more

jaephoenix:

Fine.
So he knew Adam would fall for the tree if evil, but he still went ahead and planted it by him?
He knew the devil would deceive humanity but he still went ahead and created him?
Answer these 2 and I'll ask some more

Exactly, he knew and he still went ahead because he does what's best for mankind.
The question you need to ask is what is God's plan for mankind.
Does he want us to live in a bubble outside the influence of sin, pain or Satan?

tctrills:

Exactly, he knew and he still went ahead because he does what's best for mankind.
The question you need to ask is what is God's plan for mankind.
Does he want us to live in a bubble outside the influence of sin, pain or Satan?

Really? What was best for mankind was wiping out the whole world with the flood? Really?