engineerd:

Is this train system only for mainland Lagos? What about island folks see discrimination, they should make a train track over the lagoon.

Yes, they should and they would, provided YOU give them the money first.

To people complaining about the trains being Tokunbo, do you think Nigeria (not even Lagos) can afford new trains? Look at the cost of the trains attached below. Each new train will probably cost between $3m-$4m and about 250 are needed, which will bring the overall cost of just the trains to $750m - $1 Billion.

Then add in the cost of about $9 million per Kilometer for the infrastructure.

http://www.railway-technical.com/finance.shtml

Another reason for we lagosians to pay our taxes promptly The Lekki-Ikoyi suspended bridge (1st suspended bridge in West Africa) is 75% complete and would contribute to easing traffic on the island

@wallie, kudos for the cost update. Developmental projects don't cost peanuts

Thanks for the pricing, Lagos would be hard pressed to buy those new trains


Refurbished is ok, as long as its well maintained. Come UK make i show you 500yrs old house still standing and people living in it,

afam4eva:

, About Fashola becoming Nigeria's next president. I'm indifferent about that. There are way better leaders than him in Nigeria eg Aunty Ngozi, Pat Utomi, Oby Ezekwesilli, Soludo, Sanusi etc. It's just that he had the opportunity to show his talent.

Not disagreeing with you but how do you know the people you listed are better "leaders" except maybe Ngozi?

Wallie:

To people complaining about the trains being Tokunbo, do you think Nigeria (not even Lagos) can afford new trains? Look at the cost of the trains attached below. Each new train will probably cost between $3m-$4m and about 250 are needed, which will bring the overall cost of just the trains to $750m - $1 Billion.

Then add in the cost of about $9 million per Kilometer for the infrastructure.

http://www.railway-technical.com/finance.shtml

^^^
Arrant nonsense.
A single Tokunbo Airbus costs as much $100m. Some single individuals have no qualms in aquiring  large number of such machines with the intention of owning an airline. Some already do. Some are about to.
And who on earth says the payments for such are to be made at a single go? The cost of the attendant infrastructure is the same, either new or Tokunbo. Why not buy new cars?
Proper arrangements with manufacturing companies wil make BRAND NEW TRAINS available in no time.
You buy in Canada, refurbish in USA and Ship into Naija. I'll keep this figures and we'll compare to figures declared spent when operations begin. If resources are properly allocated for the past God know how many years of misappropriation, we'd have more than enough to buy new trains all over again.

While I am not running down Governor Fashola's attempts, Tokunbo train cars are not our Uhuru. The old saying goes. . . "Anything worth doing AT ALL is worth doing well".
We are so used to being troden over that we have begun celebrating forms of mediocrity.

Lemme go further still. . . Please compare the Indian, Korean and other formsof buses we have as our BRT to the London Bus.
You begin to get what I'm talking about little by little

@Freezy.

Best way to settle this is to get the cost of the refursbishd vs the new. Lets talk emperically here please.

freezy:

^^^
Arrant nonsense.
A single Tokunbo Airbus costs as much $100m. Some single individuals have no qualms in aquiring  large number of such machines with the intention of owning an airline. Some already do. Some are about to.
And who on earth says the payments for such are to be made at a single go? The cost of the attendant infrastructure is the same, either new or Tokunbo. Why not buy new cars?
Proper arrangements with manufacturing companies wil make BRAND NEW TRAINS available in no time.
You buy in Canada, refurbish in USA and Ship into Naija. I'll keep this figures and we'll compare to figures declared spent when operations begin. If resources are properly allocated for the past God know how many years of misappropriation, we'd have more than enough to buy new trains all over again.

While I am not running down Governor Fashola's attempts, Tokunbo train cars are not our Uhuru. The old saying goes. . . "Anything worth doing AT ALL is worth doing well".
We are so used to being troden over that we have begun celebrating forms of mediocrity.

First there were no trains or any form of mass transit in a city of at least 15 million people.  Now the state government takes the initiative of placing an order for refurbished trains to move hundreds of thousands of people round the city everyday, and you are still complaining that the trains are not brand new.   Mister man,  would you rather have no trains than second hand ones?  Just asking.

freezy:

^^^
Arrant nonsense.
A single Tokunbo Airbus costs as much $100m. Some single individuals have no qualms in aquiring  large number of such machines with the intention of owning an airline. Some already do. Some are about to.
And who on earth says the payments for such are to be made at a single go? The cost of the attendant infrastructure is the same, either new or Tokunbo. Why not buy new cars?
Proper arrangements with manufacturing companies wil make BRAND NEW TRAINS available in no time.
You buy in Canada, refurbish in USA and Ship into Naija. I'll keep this figures and we'll compare to figures declared spent when operations begin. If resources are properly allocated for the past God know how many years of misappropriation, we'd have more than enough to buy new trains all over again.

While I am not running down Governor Fashola's attempts, Tokunbo train cars are not our Uhuru. The old saying goes. . . "Anything worth doing AT ALL is worth doing well".
We are so used to being troden over that we have begun celebrating forms of mediocrity.

I’ll ignore the first sentence.

In your haste to lay blame, you forgot to realize that this is a private-public partnership and the government is only providing the infrastructure at a cost of $400m. Private companies are providing the rail cars in exchange for a 25 year concession.

Also, may I ask the model year of your car and make? If you did not buy new and driving anything other than a luxury car, why didn’t you buy new? I just saw a post on the home page about banks giving out car loans. Your answer is the same reason Lagos is not buying new.

@Freezy

I also didn't just pull a number out of the thin air. Can you back up your assertions? Simple links will do.

kulutempa:

First there were no trains or any form of mass transit in a city of at least 15 million people.  Now the state government takes the initiative of placing an order for refurbished trains to move hundreds of thousands of people round the city everyday, and you are still complaining that the trains are not brand new.   Mister man,  would you rather have no trains than second hand ones?  Just asking.

Mediocrity. At its peak.

Learn not to settle for second best. Always settle for the best.
Note that I am not complaining. I am putting that here for record purposes. I only said we could have done much better. Refurbished trains according to research have a lifespan of about 15 years. New ones do have more than 50.

Also,

Go ask the people in Ikorodo or Okokomaik or badagry if they'll prefer a used train to no train at all, then you'll understand how people feel about this project,

I remember spending hours on that Lagos badagry expressway,

Fashole MUST succeed in this project o.

I'm sure there will be an upgrade path for the trains, once they get to end of life. Its private sector driven remember? If it was solely government owned, then i'd be terribly worried.

freezy:

Mediocrity. At its peak.

Learn not to settle for second best. Always settle for the best.
Note that I am not complaining. I am putting that here for record purposes. I only said we could have done much better. Refurbished trains according to research have a lifespan of about 15 years. New ones do have more than 50.

Of course new trains are better but so also is owning 7 different luxury cars for each day of the week. How are you going to generate the required ROI on new trains? Are you, as a customer, ready to pay the extra surcharge for brand new trains?

freezy:

Mediocrity. At its peak.

Learn not to settle for second best. Always settle for the best.
Note that I am not complaining. I am putting that here for record purposes. I only said we could have done much better. Refurbished trains according to research have a lifespan of about 15 years. New ones do have more than 50.

Thanks for your response.  However there is the little problem of how the loan on the financing of the brand new trains will be paid back.  As someone said here the project is a PPP, and the trains are being bought by a private consortium who have to make a return on their investment.   The higher the cost of the trains, the higher the repayments and the higher the fares have to be to cover the capital costs. If the fares are too high the volume of passengers goes down, and the investors could lose money big time.  It is simply a business decision and hopefully when the income per capita of Lagosians increases to the extent  that they can afford fares on brand new trains there should be no problem  buying them.  For now second hand trains are what the market can support.

I don't know why some folks come out here and think they are smarter than others, one posted the 'gullibles are fooled again, '
If these developments are not happening now when will they happen, New York City Metro began in 1904 (over 100 years ago), let's keep doing the right things, we'll get there.

@ Wallie. My apologies. I take it back.

No. I am not laying blame. I said with proper planning, brand new cars can be bought without much ado.
If the private guys are coming up with the funds for purchase of the cars, why not mandate them to buy new ones and be given a consession for a longer amount of time?
The Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transport Authority (MARTA www.itsmarta.com) refurbished each train car in 2009 at a cost of about $250k. However, those cars will do a maximum of 15 active years, with a lot more maintenance than new ones will ever require.

As per links to cost for an aircraft, simply type cost of an airbus on www.google.com search and you'll see them costs.

My car? Lets not go there. There is no need to show off. I'll just say God has been kind to me concerning that aspect

@ Kulutempa, you are one in a million, keep doing your thing. I doffed my hat for you.
some peeps are so parochial in their thoughts,

@Freezy,

Like your calm, Maybe we should ask OBJ, Atiku, IBB, Abubaker and all the rest to return all the stolen commonwealth. Then we can buy brand new trains for use all over the country. lol.

Seroiusly,
I think the guys investing in this project must have crunched the numbers before opting for the used trains, Lets give them the benefit of doubt

@benlay, thanks for the compliment. Have a nice day

daguru:

Another reason for we lagosians to pay our taxes promptly The Lekki-Ikoyi suspended bridge (1st suspended bridge in West Africa) is 75% complete and would contribute to easing traffic on the island

I can't wait!!! God bless this man (Fashola)

This is really good. But somebody neds to start a company that manufacturers trains in Nigeria. We need to get our engineers the experience then maybe they can start building planes as well.

I don't think I want Oby Ezekwesili or Ngozi Okonjo as a preisent of Nigeria. They worked for the World Bank and I think that the World Bank will use them as puppets for American interests. If they will fight against imperialism then theywould be great presidents. But if Fashola isn't president then he should be a governor of a different state. Maybe he can switch with Ameachi (hopefully tribalism won't affect anything.)

Mister man, half a loaf is better than none.  You have to learn to walk before you start to run.

@kulutempa
So buying second hand rails is learning to walk, Amazed at hw sum people reason. Poverty mentality.

freezy:

@ Wallie. My apologies. I take it back.

No. I am not laying blame. I said with proper planning, brand new cars can be bought without much ado.
If the private guys are coming up with the funds for purchase of the cars, why not mandate them to buy new ones and be given a consession for a longer amount of time?
The Metropolitan Atlanta Rapid Transport Authority (MARTA www.itsmarta.com) refurbished each train car in 2009 at a cost of about $250k. However, those cars will do a maximum of 15 active years, with a lot more maintenance than new ones will ever require.

As per links to cost for an aircraft, simply type cost of an airbus on www.google.com search and you'll see them costs.

My car? Lets not go there. There is no need to show off. I'll just say God has been kind to me concerning that aspect

Apology accepted.

Private guys are not mandated to buy new rail cars because their business model won’t support it. You also have to realize that the private individuals involved are responsible for maintaining the rail cars.

With regards to MARTA, I’m also certain that their facts are different. For example, you can refurbish a 1985 Honda Accord or refurbish a 2002 Honda Accord, but each of them will have a different life span. I’m not saying the Toronto trains are newer but I don’t know if they’re not and they may even be a different brand entirely.

I wasn’t talking about the aircraft as you only used that to buttress your point. And I wasn’t literally talking about your cars; I only used it to explain a metaphor. For example, why not just buy your own private jet on your own private island instead of taking a commercial airplane? Surely, your private jet will allow you to better manage your time.

igbo2011:

This is really good. But somebody neds to start a company that manufacturers trains in Nigeria.  We need to get our engineers the experience then maybe they can start building planes as well.

I don't think I want Oby Ezekwesili or Ngozi Okonjo as a preisent of Nigeria.  They worked for the World Bank and I think that the World Bank will use them as puppets for American interests.  If they will fight against imperialism then theywould be great presidents.  But if Fashola isn't president then he should be a governor of a different state.  Maybe he can switch with Ameachi (hopefully tribalism won't affect anything.)

You are making a LOT OF SENSE. I think the highlighted is against the constitution of Nigeria.
About the engineers thing,
The FG (not state G) should invest SERIOUSLY in Innoson motors. Those guys just need a bit of motivation and incentive to be our main manufacturer of motor engines.

@freezy

With regards to giving the investors longer concessions, in my cursory search, I’ve not seen any infrastructure loan with a period of more than 15 years. Do you know of any bank in the world that gives out infrastructure loans for a period greater than 20 years, especially to African countries?

Wallie:

Apology accepted.

Private guys are not mandated to buy new rail cars because their business model won’t support it. You also have to realize that the private individuals involved are responsible for maintaining the rail cars.

With regards to MARTA, I’m also certain that their facts are different. For example, you can refurbish a 1985 Honda Accord or refurbish a 2002 Honda Accord, but each of them will have a different life span. I’m not saying the Toronto trains are newer but I don’t know if they’re not and they may even be a different brand entirely.

I wasn’t talking about the aircraft as you only used that to buttress your point. And I wasn’t literally talking about your cars; I only used it to explain a metaphor. For example, why not just buy your own private jet on your own private island instead of taking a commercial airplane? Surely, your private jet will allow you to better manage your time.

My boss does just that and one day, I should,   God willing.

C'mon, don't be such a bore. . .  I understood you metaphor and you ought to have seen that I was just being a cynic. Of course, if you could get the cost of rail cars, you'd sure have the capacity to get the cost of an aircraft.
Since this is a public forum, we all are entitled to our opinions. Mine is, with proper planning, nothing stops us from buying new cars. Are you aware that government funding helped MARTA complete the rail project? In proper environments, such projects are not done in isolation but alas, this is Naija.
I believe in tackling issues in a wholistic view. Without proper planning (which include mitigating every form of corrupt practice), new or old rail cars will never come to light. If the stupendous resources this country has is not being shared by a few, buying new rail cars will be the least of our problems. I'm sure manufacturing companies will give it out and tell us to pay at our convenience. . .  A business contnuity plan for them.

Wallie:

@freezy

With regards to giving the investors longer concessions, in my cursory search, I’ve not seen any infrastructure loan with a period of more than 15 years. Do you know of any bank in the world that gives out infrastructure loans for a period greater than 20 years, especially to African countries?

Is the concession country Nigerian? Maybe they do not have the pedigree to handle such projects yet.

Japan has been known to grant home loans as much as 40 years and there has been tal of loans that go as much as a hundred years. Errr, what is the average tenure of Morgages in the UK these days? Well, a school of thought says those are morgages anyway

In granting loans, the higher the risk, the shorter the tenure. African countries are high risk, thus the short tenure.

airlord:

Mister man, half a loaf is better than none.  You have to learn to walk before you start to run.

@kulutempa
So buying second hand rails is learning to walk, Amazed at hw sum people reason. Poverty mentality.

Second hand rails? What are you smoking today man? Anyways  it's better to learn to walk than to crawl around for the rest of your life.

freezy:

Is the concession country Nigerian? Maybe they do not have the pedigree to handle such projects yet.

Japan has been known to grant home loans as much as 40 years and there has been tal of loans that go as much as a hundred years. Errr, what is the average tenure of Morgages in the UK these days?   Well, a school of thought says those are morgages anyway

In granting loans, the higher the risk, the shorter the tenure. African countries are high risk, thus the short tenure.

Exactly my point!! Most of Africa is too unstable for any investor to wait a long period of time for ROI on a fixed asset. With airplanes, you can always repo or sell it for scraps when things don't go your way. The companies handling the project include investment companies. I also doubt that they have the experience to run such project without hiring the necessary experts.

Wallie:

Exactly my point!! Most of Africa is too unstable for any investor to wait a long period of time for ROI on a fixed asset. With airplanes, you can always repo or sell it for scraps when things don't go your way. The companies handling the project include investment companies. I also doubt that they have the experience to run such project without hiring the necessary experts.

@Wallie, you are right. Another reason why most infrastracture loans do not have a tenure of more than 25 to 30 years is that they are usually correlated to a benchmark which in most cases is the US 30 year treasury bond. This is the longest term bond issued by the US government and once you issue a loan beyond it, you are basically jumping into the unknown. It is for the same reason that most mortgages in Western countries are usually for 25 - 30 years.