faithin9ja:

@A-zed
@Faithin 9ja, beaf et al
[color=#006600][/color]

of course not. Corruption will continue, we are all part of it, but removal of subsidy is the first step, why continue an ineffective corrupt practice that benefit only a few people n the cabals who use the guise of helping the masses buy fuel at N65, whereas they are making billions.

That means we have not really achieved anything because of the bolded. Subsidy removal is like robbing peter to pay paul.

Beaf:

^
Abeg, learn what deregulation means so you don't ask such questions.

can you please explain what deregulation means??

Beaf:

^
Abeg, learn what deregulation means so you don't ask such questions.

You mean you are actually uttering curses, because you feel you have a right to be paid by govt, rather than demand the right things or do a hard days work?
Are you proud to be a beggar? I find your position absolutely ridiculous and laughable.

I almost vowed once not to ever respond to any post of yours as long as Nairaland exists because to me, you are the most fooooolish, most unreasonable and most disgusting creature on the planet. Your antecedent has always been to support on Nairaland any policy GEJ comes up with no matter how sensible or otherwise and to isult others that feel otherwise about such policies. Now going by your previous posts on this thread, you support both removal of fuel subsidy and the timing. But i have a few questions for you. I am prepared to reason with you if you prove to me to be a sensible person. And you can only prove that by answering each question as intelligently as you can. Please find beneath my queries:

1. The government has acknowledged the existence of oil cabals and the corrupt practises (e.g round tripping, gross inflation of re-imbursements due to the oil marketers etc) in the downstream sector. Okonjo Iweala states that last year alone, government spent approximately N1.3 Trillion naira on subsidy alone. Although i don't have the exact figures but given the level of corruption and unimaginable kleptomania and moral decadence that exists in the downstream sector of the oil industry, I imagine that at least 40% of that amount (approx. N520Billion) found its way into the pockets of some individuals. Don't you think it would be wise of your GEJ to first fight corruption in the sector, recover this amount and keep on subsidising petrol for nigerians until when it will be clear to everyone that subsidy is no longer sustainable? If he does this first, i guarantee you that we will not be talking about subsidy removal in the next couple of years.

2.Would it not be wise to first improve power generation nationwide to at least 5000MW so that there would be reduced demand for petrol by nigerians who have to provide power for themselves before thinking of removing fuel subsidy?

3.Can't our leaders make the smallest sacrifices e.g reduce unnecessary, non-value adding foreign trips, number of aides, security votes or even allowances thereby making some extra savings that may be returned to the nation's coffers and used to provide for some of the much needed infrastructure by nigerians?

4.Virtually all of the government officials that propose this subsidy removal do not buy fuel for their use with their money. Either looted or legitimately earned. Why can't the government enact policies that will make everysingle nigerian pay for the petrol he needs. That way we will believe that we are all in this together. But GEJ and his goooons do not buy fuel with their money but they want the common man to but fuel @ N140/litre? Hell No!

FYI. I belong to the school of thought that believes that Nigeria can not sustain the fuel subsidy for much longer. But I believe that it shouldn't be mentioned until all these points highligted above have been realised. Then and only then may we start talking about deregulation.

so, it means that when govt brings in fuel in a subsidized rate for nigeria, some people will then shipp the fuel that belongs to all of us to a neigbouring contries like cameroun and others.

i guess thats the reason they  are feeling the heat.

in this fuel subsidy removal so mny things will unfold

Thank God say no be only us dey suffer am.

@Pro01: You can use the appropriate preposition for all I care, I still don't give a shhiitt. It doesn't change what I choose to believe

fork adict:

I almost vowed once not to ever respond to any post of yours as long as Nairaland exists because to me, you are the most fooooolish, most unreasonable and most disgusting creature on the planet. Your antecedent has always been to support on Nairaland any policy GEJ comes up with no matter how sensible or otherwise and to isult others that feel otherwise about such policies. Now going by your previous posts on this thread, you support both removal of fuel subsidy and the timing. But i have a few questions for you. I am prepared to reason with you if you prove to me to be a sensible person. And you can only prove that by answering each question as intelligently as you can. Please find beneath my queries:

You must think you are very important! LOLZZZ!!!!
There is a reason why people like you are obnoxious, I think you should find it out. The answer certainly does not have "Beaf" in it.

fork adict:

1. The government has acknowledged the existence of oil cabals and the corrupt practises (e.g round tripping, gross inflation of re-imbursements due to the oil marketers etc) in the downstream sector. Okonjo Iweala states that last year alone, government spent approximately N1.3 Trillion naira on subsidy alone. Although i don't have the exact figures but given the level of corruption and unimaginable kleptomania and moral decadence that exists in the downstream sector of the oil industry, I imagine that at least 40% of that amount (approx. N520Billion) found its way into the pockets of some individuals. Don't you think it would be wise of your GEJ to first fight corruption in the sector, recover this amount and keep on subsidising petrol for nigerians until when it will be clear to everyone that subsidy is no longer sustainable? If he does this first, i guarantee you that we will not be talking about subsidy removal in the next couple of years.

What I think would be wise, is that all Nigerians actually apply themseves to learn how insidious and all-pervasive the petroleum mafia is. I made an allusion to the police force elsewhere. Fighting the corruption in the petroleum sector is like fighting the corruption in the police, it is impossible; jailing people would have been a waste of time and chasing the wind.
If someone was to give you a choice of fighting corruption in the police force or totally scrapping it and starting afresh, which would you choose? It would be real funny to see someone jailing policemen to reform the force.

fork adict:

2.Would it not be wise to first improve power generation nationwide to at least 5000MW so that there would be reduced demand for petrol by nigerians who have to provide power for themselves before thinking of removing fuel subsidy?

There is rapid building in the power sector and we should have hit 5000MW by now (due December), if not for NLC and PHCN blackmailling the govt. It would have been better to have 5000MW, but since nothing works to schedule in Nigeria, it is best to push on with urgent reforms.

fork adict:

3.Can't our leaders make the smallest sacrifices e.g reduce unnecessary, non-value adding foreign trips, number of aides, security votes or even allowances thereby making some extra savings that may be returned to the nation's coffers and used to provide for some of the much needed infrastructure by nigerians?

Now, that is something I would join you to riot about.

fork adict:

4.Virtually all of the government officials that propose this subsidy removal do not buy fuel for their use with their money. Either looted or legitimately earned. Why can't the government enact policies that will make everysingle nigerian pay for the petrol he needs. That way we will believe that we are all in this together. But GEJ and his goooons do not buy fuel with their money but they want the common man to but fuel @ N140/litre? Hell No!

That will never happen.

fork adict:

FYI. I belong to the school of thought that believes that Nigeria can not sustain the fuel subsidy for much longer. But I believe that it shouldn't be mentioned until all these points highligted above have been realised. Then and only then may we start talking about deregulation.

Nice to know that you are halfway there, however as pointed out in some of my responses above, some of your assumptions are flawed.

bodejohn:

Beaf, thank heavens you are here, Can you answer my question below? If you can succeed in convincing only me without abuses, I will be glad!

BodeJohn, the savings will be from excess crude sales. What I mean is this, the benchmark for expected revenue in the budget is is lower than the actual crude price. The difference normally goes to a federation account call the excess crude account. This money is then shared among the threee tiers of government (Fed, state and LG), FCT, derivation and ecology, devlpmt of natural resources and stabilization funds. The Federal goverment has been using this excess savings to pay for subsidies and share the remnant among the tiers of government. Governors and other stakeholders have kicked against this approach. Hence their tactical support for the removal. Whereas there was provision in the last year budget, the difference was taken from the above mentioned account including borrowing. In the same way thogh there is no provision in the current budget, government can still fund it from the excess crude account. This is what government plan to save and use through the subsidy reinvestment and empowerment programme headed by Christopher Kolade.

bodejohn: There is a big question on my mind while thinking about this subsidy issues. Like most Nigerians, I believe too that our economy cannot forever support subsidy on petroleum products the way it is been run by the GEJ govt. But I also believe that the spirit and passion of the removal is also completely wrong at this time considering the less than zero preparation of the government not to only cushion the effect but to provide alternatives to suffering Nigerians.
All these got me think and I found a big hole in the argument of govt. according to govt. sources some amount was budgeted for fuel subsidy last year but it was overpaid by about a trillion naira, that leaves the govt with some one trillion deficit.
But there is no amount budgeted for subsidy in this year's budget how is the govt expected to make savings? You can only make savings on what you have, how does okonjo iweala plan to make savings on what was not budgeted for?
Will the govt take what she used to pay back from the marketers? A quick answer to my mind confirms the fact that there was no subsidy in the first place. But not to live in my ignorance if that is the case, how does the govt plan to rake in savings of subsidy condering the fact that she will no longer monitor consumption. I need some answers please,

The money was borrowed, so govt saves by not borrowing and cutting down the budget deficit (gymers response is excellent).
Each year, govt has to borrow to finance the budget, cos the country is not generating enough money, yet we have to pay the NASS more than Obama. IMHO, that is what we should be protesting about. The country does not exist for them.

Beaf:

You must think you are very important! LOLZZZ!!!!
There is a reason why people like you are obnoxious, I think you should find it out. The answer certainly does not have "Beaf" in it.

You are not only unreasonable  but you are also daffft. Who is the obnovious one here between me & you? Almost everyposter in the politics section has got issues with you and they also insult you. How many posters do same with me?

Beaf:



What I think would be wise, is that all Nigerians actually apply themseves to learn how insidious and all-pervasive the petroleum mafia is. I made an allusion to the police force elsewhere. Fighting the corruption in the petroleum sector is like fighting the corruption in the police, it is impossible; jailing people would have been a waste of time and chasing the wind.
If someone was to give you a choice of fighting corruption in the police force or totally scrapping it and starting afresh, which would you choose? It would be real funny to see someone jailing policemen to reform the force.

So according to you, fighting corruption in the petroleum sector which is a tiny subset of the nigerian nation is impossible. So it automatically means that fighting corruption in nigeria as a whole is much more impossible according to you. Now i see why you were so desperate in seeing that Buhari never emerged President cos you knew that corrupt and morally bankrupt people like you would be gonnas. Listen up Mr Beef. No nation in the world with the corruption level as high as Nigeria's can make progress. Before nigeria can progress, we need to fight corruption and i disagree with you beef, IT IS VERY VERY VERY POSSIBLE to fight corruption. You may take a clue from singapore. It only takes an honest leader with an honest team to clean up naija

Beaf:

There is rapid building in the power sector and we should have hit 5000MW by now (due December), if not for NLC and PHCN blackmailling the govt. It would have been better to have 5000MW, but since nothing works to schedule in Nigeria, it is best to push on with urgent reforms.

Why are you lieing and who do you think you can deceive? You are so despicable. If you made that statement out of ignorance or by deliberately trying to deceive people, either way it makes you contemptible. Our power generation isn't anywhere near 4000MW talk more of 5000MW. Its at 3000 plus a few hundred megawatt at best. So stop lieing.

Second, @ the emboldened. Its like a university graduate studing to be a medical doctor. But because his university got issues that threatened to turn his six year course into an eight year course. he then decides that because nothing works to schedule in his school and because of his desire to start practicing as a doctor, he has the right to go out and start practicing as a medical doctor without actually graduating from school. My point is, if there isnt steady power, then dont go ahead with deregulation.

Beaf:



That will never happen.

What is the big forking deal in passing a bill that states that everysingle nigerian irrespective of your office (well maybe with the exception of the president and his vice) be financially responsible for the fuel he uses? Let ALL OF US FEEL THE PAIN OF THE DEREGULATION TOGETHER! What is wrong with that?

To further prove that GEJ and his goooons are only lieing to nigerians and just trying to take us for a ride, a simple analysis is in order:

Iweala and other criminals tell us that in 2011, N1.1 Trillion was spent on subsidy.

OK. Our daily requirement of petrol is about 28 million litres. For the purpose of this analysis I assume 30 million litres per day.

There are 365 days in a year. Our yearly requirement/consumption of petrol is 365 daysX30 million litres/day= 10.95 billion litres per annum.

The deregulated pump price of petrol is N140 per litre. Pump price before the deregulation was N65 per litre. This means that for every litre of petrol we consume, there is a N75 the government pays as subsidy.

To calculate how much the government spent truly in yr 2011 on subsidy, we multiply our consumption for the year by the subsidy rate per litre thus we have

10.95 billion X N75 = N821.3 Billion naira.

So how the fork and i mean HOW THE FORK ON EARTH CAN N1.1 TRILLION BE EQUAL TO N821 BILLION?

Mind you, the real figure spent will be much less than what i arrived at because my daily estimate had been marked up by 2 million litres per day which is not a small amount.

GEJ and IWEALA, and their agents on nairaland @ beef especially it will not be well with you all for causing the average nigerian this much pain.

@fork addict

To further prove that GEJ and his goooons are only lieing to nigerians and just trying to take us for a ride, a simple analysis is in order:

Iweala and other criminals tell us that in 2011, N1.1 Trillion was spent on subsidy.

OK. Our daily requirement of petrol is about 28 million litres. For the purpose of this analysis I assume 30 million litres per day.

There are 365 days in a year. Our yearly requirement/consumption of petrol is 365 daysX30 million litres/day= 10.95 billion litres per annum.

The deregulated pump price of petrol is N140 per litre. Pump price before the deregulation was N65 per litre. This means that for every litre of petrol we consume, there is a N75 the government pays as subsidy.

To calculate how much the government spent truly in yr 2011 on subsidy, we multiply our consumption for the year by the subsidy rate per litre thus we have

10.95 billion X N75 = N821.3 Billion naira.

So how the fork and i mean HOW THE FORK ON EARTH CAN N1.1 TRILLION BE EQUAL TO N821 BILLION?

Mind you, the real figure spent will be much less than what i arrived at because my daily estimate had been marked up by 2 million litres per day which is not a small amount.

GEJ and IWEALA, and their agents on nairaland @ beef especially it will not be well with you all for causing the average nigerian this much

pain.


You have not been listening !!! this why subsidy must stop. Your figures are wrong and simplistic but the principal you have raised is exactly the problem. Those importing petrol, NNPC, DPPR, etc deliberately increase the figures of petrol that is imported so to increase the amount of money they claim from the government. This is why giving subsidy is unsustainable. In order to keep the pump price at N65 the government is paying these so-called cabal well over N140 per litre.

If government refuses to pay or start an investigation, they will simply stop bringing in the petrol and we have fuel shortage. Even the marketers that are suppose to deliver petrol up country, to Kano, Maiduguri, etc - NNPC pays them a different amount to offset the transport of taking the petrol upcountry so as maintain the N65 per litre, guess what? the marketers divert the petrol either to neighboring countries or sell right there in Lagos. That's the folly of governments trying to manipulate markets.

faithin9ja:

@fork addict

[color=#006600][/color] pain.


You have not been listening !!! this why subsidy must stop. Your figures are wrong and simplistic but the principal you have raised is exactly the problem. Those importing petrol, NNPC, DPPR, etc deliberately increase the figures of petrol that is imported so to increase the amount of money they claim from the government. This is why giving subsidy is unsustainable. In order to keep the pump price at N65 the government is paying these so-called cabal well over N140 per litre.

If government refuses to pay or start an investigation, they will simply stop bringing in the petrol and we have fuel shortage. Even the marketers that are suppose to deliver petrol up country, to Kano, Maiduguri, etc - NNPC pays them a different amount to offset the transport of taking the petrol upcountry so as maintain the N65 per litre, guess what? the marketers divert the petrol either to neighboring countries or sell right there in Lagos. That's the folly of governments trying to manipulate markets.

Na wa for you o. People like you are so judgmental and rash. Did you take a minute to understand my analysis?

How are my figures wrong? is it the N75 subsidy rate/litre or our daily consumption? FYI the 2million litres/day mark up i gave is to take care of 'other exigencies' such as the marketing and distribution costs. Multiply 2million litres/day by 365 days by N75 subsidy/litre and tell me if that aint enough to cater for the distribution and marketing costs.

The point of my previous post is that we should not be talking about subsidy now. Subsidy is the only 'bond' many nigerians have with the government. Sever that and you are simply snuffing life out of nigerians. Besides we need to fight corruption in all forms in the polity and rechannel these 'leaking' funds back to the nation's coffers and put a few more things (that i enumerated in an earlier post of mine) in place and only then can we start talking about subsidy removal. I know for a fact that the subsidy thing is unsustainable. But if we tackle corruption, we can still go ahead with subsidy for many more years. Even Sanusi said so in the debate. Go find out.

@fork addict

Your analysis suggests subsidy is N75 per litre, I and the figure of $7 billion says the figure is more then N75 per litre. Be real my friend, is it today we will start to tackle corruption in Nigeria? remove the incentive and remove the corruption.

Be real, can we really sanction all the importers of PMS, Oando, Xenon, Capital, etc can we arrest all the NNPC, DPPR, customs, Navy officials, Ministry civil servants, etc who are involved in this 'rape of our country'. Believe me, even the honest importer after importing petrol at N140 per litre he will not get his refund from the government is he does not hand over the 'egunje' first. Meanwhile the bank is hounding him to pay back the 90 day credit they gave him at exorbitant interest rates.

Free government money only breeds inefficiency, fraud and corruption. In America it's called 'pork' in UK they have big problem in tackling fraud in their own subsidy - UK subsidy is not petrol but the welfare state.

The two groups of people to immediately suffer from subsidy withdrawal is the the common man paying N140 per litre and the so-called cabal (I listed some of the players above)

'foolish man plant mango for road oh! anoda man go pluck am'

Free the market, allow those of us who want to build refineries, allow us build, those of us who want to import PMS, allow us import, let the banks lend us money to bring in PMS, then watch the price fall when the real competition starts, when 2 petrol stations on the same street are selling at different prices.

faithin9ja:

@fork addict[b]

Your analysis suggests subsidy is N75 per litre, I and the figure of $7 billion says the figure is more then N75 per litre.[/b] Be real my friend, is it today we will start to tackle corruption in Nigeria? remove the incentive and remove the corruption.

Be real, can we really sanction all the importers of PMS, Oando, Xenon, Capital, etc can we arrest all the NNPC, DPPR, customs, Navy officials, Ministry civil servants, etc who are involved in this 'violation of our country'. Believe me, even the honest importer after importing petrol at N140 per litre he will not get his refund from the government is he does not hand over the 'egunje' first. Meanwhile the bank is hounding him to pay back the 90 day credit they gave him at exorbitant interest rates.

Free government money only breeds inefficiency, fraud and corruption. In America it's called 'pork' in UK they have big problem in tackling fraud in their own subsidy - UK subsidy is not petrol but the welfare state.

The two groups of people to immediately suffer from subsidy withdrawal is the the common man paying N140 per litre and the so-called cabal (I listed some of the players above)

'foolish man plant mango for road oh! anoda man go pluck am'

Free the market, allow those of us who want to build refineries, allow us build, those of us who want to import PMS, allow us import, let the banks lend us money to bring in PMS, then watch the price fall when the real competition starts, when 2 petrol stations on the same street are selling at different prices.

@ faithin9ja,

ok My analysis quoting N75/litre as the subsidy is wrong? Now respond to this post telling me how much the subsidy is. Mind you, GEJ said in his address and i quote 'This evening, I address you, again, with much concern over an issue that borders on the national economy, the oil industry and national progress.  As part of our efforts to transform the economy and guarantee prosperity for all Nigerians, Government, a few days ago, announced further deregulation of the downstream petroleum sector. The immediate effect of this has been the removal of the subsidy on petrol. '

I was somewhere in the middle belt region and i bought fuel at N140 per litre. In ogbomosho, on my way back to lagos, i stopped at a filling station and bought fuel @ N138 per litre. I got to lagos and bought some more fuel @ N140 per litre. In all these instances, the average pump price is N140 per litre. At the emboldened in the extract from Jona's speech, he said that the subsidy has been removed. If so, and we had to buy at an average price of N140/litre when the former price when we still had the subsidy was N65/litre. So how much is the subsidy then? This is simple arithmetic guy.

You also said that is it today that we started tackling corruption in naija? FYI guy, since the inception of EFCC and ICPC, what we have always had wasnt a true anti corruption war. Believe me, if we were to fight corruption the way we should,  all those govt agencies and cabals you mentioned will be  dealt with appropriately. I can make some recommendations here but that will be derailing this topic. So i ask you again, if you say its impossible for corruption to be tackled in a few agencies, which are tiny subsets of the nigerian nation, how then do you expect us to fight corruption in the nation?

By the way, you seem not to get my position on this subsidy sheet correctly. I know that subsidy removal is inevitable. I know that maintaining the subsidy regime can be a finacial burden and that the market needs to be free to enable private investors to come into the country to build refineries etc etc. I understand these points for facts.
However, i am also saying that THIS IS NOT THE TIME TO REMOVE THE SUBSIDY. Even Sanusi said in the debate that with the present system and all its attendant coruption and ills, we can still keep subsidising till 2015. Imagine if the system is now sanitised, it means that we can still maintain the subsidy regime for many many more years. So why do you choose to punish nigerians most of whom live below the poverty line just because you are confused, helpless and overwhelmed with fighting corruption in the oil sector? Does that make sense?
Mind you, discussions were still ongoing when your president, just unilaterally removed the subsidy like we were still in a military regime. It was all over the news that the removal would take effect in April. Only for the clown to remove it on Jan 1. This kind of shock need to be prepared for. We need to pshyche ourselves and develop personal action plans on how to survive when the subsidy is eventually removed but he did not give us that opportunity and so we surely will resist.
You may also search one of my responses to BEEF on this thread on the conditions that ought to have been met before talking about subsidy removal. i cant start enumerating them all over again.