Can someone help me here.

It is a known historical fact that Abraham offered his precious son Isaac to God in a show of utter and total loyalty and love. We also can deduct from this event that God in his most infinite wisdom used this event as a pointer to his own complete sacrifice of his ONLY son on the cross for the sins of mankind.

Additionally Isaac was called the child of promise not Ishmael.

What I still cannot get my head round is the audacity of Muhammad to turn this event on it's head and change the story to suit his Ishmael narrative.

My questions are :

1. If Ishmael was indeed the sacrificial son, then what was the logic behind this event for the future of mankind.

2. How could the child of a slave woman usurp the position of the child of a free woman , in this case, the wife of Abraham.

frosbel:

Can someone help me here.

It is a known historical fact that Abraham offered his precious son Isaac to God in a show of utter and total loyalty and love. We also can deduct from this event that God in his most infinite wisdom used this event as a pointer to his own complete sacrifice of his ONLY son on the cross for the sins of mankind.

Additionally Isaac was called the child of promise not Ishmael.

What I still cannot get my head round is the audacity of Muhammad to turn this event on it's head and change the story to suit his Ishmael narrative.

My questions is :

1. If Ishmael was indeed the sacrificial son, then what was the logic behind this event for the future of mankind.

2. How could the child of a slave woman usurp the position of the child of a free woman , in this case, the wife of Abraham.

for islam to survive, the pole position of the jews (descendants of Isaac) had to be eliminated to make way for mohammad and his arab folks (hence the need for a pro-ishmael slant).

davidylan:

for islam to survive, the pole position of the jews (descendants of Isaac) had to be eliminated to make way for mohammad and his arab folks (hence the need for a pro-ishmael slant).

In other words , Muhammad created this narrative due to his envy and jealousy of the Jews , especially their peculiar status as God's vehicle for the salvation of mankind.

But the other question, in the mind of ISLAM, what plan was behind ALLAH's sacrificing of his son Ishmael. So far , it appears he did it just for the sake of doing it with no real logic behind this move.

frosbel:

In other words , Muhammad created this narrative due to his envy and jealousy of the Jews , especially their peculiar status as God's vehicle for the salvation of mankind.

But the other question, in the mind of ISLAM, what plan was behind ALLAH's sacrificing of his son Ishmael. So far , it appears he did it just for the sake of doing it with no real logic behind this move.

Absolutely nothing. No reason at all . . . neither do muslims understand why they celebrate idel maulud either except its a commemoration of Abraham sacrificing Ishmael . . . but why? What is the meaning of the sacrifice to islam?

frosbel:



It is a known historical fact that Abraham offered his precious son Isaac to God in a show of utter and total loyalty and love. We also can deduct from this event that God in his most infinite wisdom used this event as a pointer to his own complete sacrifice of his ONLY son on the cross for the sins of mankind.

This statement is open to debate especially the second sentence

phxc:

This statement is open to debate especially the second sentence

where is the debate there?

davidylan:

where is the debate there?

There's no debate here for now but make that same statement in the islamic forum or when the atheists are in town

phxc:

There's no debate here for now but make that same statement in the islamic forum or when the atheists are in town

Those clowns

^^^^^^^^^^^ Some people do not use their marbles.

Muhammad [as], Islam, neither needs jews to survive. Allah says in His Revelation, Ibrahim was not a jew or christian, but a believer in Islamic monotheism, a muslim and did not add god [holy spirit, son of god, mother of god, ifa, etc zeus, etc, etc] to God.

is it not clear that even Adam [as] had a religion or do you people think he didn't and did not worship God? Obedience is worship.

@Frosbel: lol. I am so happy that you need help because your confusion will become a thing of the past, if you let your heart and soul worship God and not the gods you are worshiping.

[Quote]Quote from: frosbel on Today at 02:42:48 PM
Can someone help me here.

It is a known historical fact that Abraham offered [b]his precious son Isaac [/b]to God in a show of utter and total loyalty and love. [/Quote]Abraham who is a father already is no more surprise at being a father the second time. Ishmael is precious to Abraham the same way Isaac is precious to Sarah. each son is the one that makes the specified parent, parent either as father for the first time making the boy the only son to the father before any other child is born, or son of the mother who was her only son. Do we say second son is better than the first, who was the only son? I think your jewish mind is forged up the reason second and weaker children are always your number one or anchor, instead of the strong and truly the elder. i will ignore the love and loyalty parts.



[Quote]We also can deduct from this event that God in his most infinite wisdom used this event as a pointer to his own complete sacrifice of his ONLY son on the cross for the sins of mankind.[/Quote] who is the Sarah here and how is it motherless and now the father is important? the jews are jews because of mother's blood. papa, maybe but for sure mother is known, yet neither Adam nor eve had a mother and or father in the sense Jesus had Mary, his mother. Is Mary now the wife of Biblical God, Jesus came by creation process, as command Power of God, just like each of creation? Did Abraham kill his son or the boy was saved, spared? God saved His Friend's son but killed His own son? Are you for real? Ah. The second son of His Friend is the Only son because the first son who was the ONLY son is not his seed [seed means semen]. You see how terrible things have become?



[Quote]Additionally Isaac was called the child of promise not Ishmael.[/Quote]Who made this statement? The God that created and named Ishmael? The God that promise to make him father of nations? How was he blessed? You think by the darn crude oil, because America has oil, so is Canada, Mexico, Nigeria, Ghana, etc? Islam is the blessing because it is Islam that has made each one of you have a bad belly. The greatest blessing is worship of God and we in Islam are the foremost in worship of God



[Quote]What I still cannot get my head round is the audacity of Muhammad to turn this event on it's head and change the story to suit his Ishmael narrative.[/Quote]And you have a big head. I am sure if isaac was from the same mother with his big brother, he would have been holding his heel, too.  



[Quote]My questions is :

1. If Ishmael was indeed the sacrificial son, then what was the logic behind this event for the future of mankind.[/Quote]PAtience, perseverance and hope and trust God is enough as your Protector. Incidentally, according to you the Biblical God did not protect jesus who begged, and hope but his trust was betrayed by making his prayers hopelessly lost. The logic in your thinking is so flawed that I laugh in oguta local government dialect.



[Quote]2. How could the child of a slave woman usurp the position of the child of a free woman , in this case, the wife of Abraham.[/Quote]Is the position of the child of one woman not the same with the mother and the position of the child with the father is in the order of birth to the father? My father's first child was the son from the second wife, while the second son is the only son of the first wife. The second son never became the first child or the only son of my father [May Allah forgive my father, my step mothers and my big brothers who have passed as muslims, all the muslims who have passed from my family, and my world wide Islamic family. Amin].

Sign that Ishmael [as] was the sacrificed son, even from your Bible; Sarah would never had let Abraham alone with the boy so much so that he carried knife, rope, etc and sarah didn't say what are you doing? And then walked away with the boy?
The jews celebrate all kinds of mundane events in their lives, but conveniently leave out this epic event, indication that it is not Isaac or he is not important to them like Jesus while Jacob is. No wonder God didn't name Isaac by named Ishmael, while it was sarah that saw isaac as a source of laughter.

Let me stop here.

some questions may never be answered

^^^^


I suggest you create a separate thread for these questions, which we shall gladly answer.

For now let us stay on topic.

Whenever I feel like laughing, I browse through my favourite online Koran.

And this ones realy cracked my jaw,apart from the Mary Child-birth narration.

2:132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."

2:133 Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob?
Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy Allah and the Allah of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah: To Him we bow (in Islam)."

2:134 That was a people that hath passed away. They shall reap the fruit of what they did, and ye of what ye do! Of their merits there is no question in your case!

2:135 They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."

2:137 Or do ye say that Abraham, Isma'il Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say: Do ye know better than Allah? Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah? and Allah is most knowing.

Koran can make it to one of the Funny series,  its more like Obi and Ada English for primary story discussions and arguements.

frosbel:

Can someone help me here.

It is a known historical fact that Abraham offered his precious son Isaac to God in a show of utter and total loyalty and love. We also can deduct from this event that God in his most infinite wisdom used this event as a pointer to his own complete sacrifice of his ONLY son on the cross for the sins of mankind.

Additionally Isaac was called the child of promise not Ishmael.

What I still cannot get my head round is the audacity of Muhammad to turn this event on it's head and change the story to suit his Ishmael narrative.

My questions are :

1. If Ishmael was indeed the sacrificial son, then what was the logic behind this event for the future of mankind.

2. How could the child of a slave woman usurp the position of the child of a free woman , in this case, the wife of Abraham.

your bible said Abraham sacrificed his only son.naturally Ishmael was born before Isaac.so it only makes sense that at the time Abrahamd had only one son,that son must have being Ishmael.Isaac (may peace be upon them) could never have being his father's "only" son!!!

then as for your second question of how according to you the son of a slave woman "usurp" the position of a free woman,your bible again will give the answer to that:

The Right of the Firstborn In The Bible
Deuteronomy 21:15-17
“If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love, when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love.He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him”.

"forsbel" you dont have to be this stupid and dishonest.this was a topic that was discussed less than a month ago.so why bring it up again?may be you suffer from memory loss!!!

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-819003.64.html#msg9770079

The Encyclopaedia Judaica says:

In the tale of binding (surah 37:99-110) Muhammad identified the son who was to be sacrificed as Ishmael and, indeed, the opinion of the traditionalists were also divided on this subject. It is related that a renowned traditionalist of Jewish origin, from the Qurayza tribe, and another Jewish scholar, who converted to Islam, told that Caliph Omar Ibn cAbd al-cAzîz (717-20) that the Jews were well informed that Ismail was the one who was bound, but that they concealed this out of jealousy. The Muslim legend also adds details of Hajar (Hagar), the mother of Ismail. After Abraham drove her and her son out, she wandered between the hills of al-Safa and al-Marwa (in the vicinity of Mecca) in search for water. At that time the waters of the spring Zemzem began to flow. Her acts became the basis for the hallowed custom of Muslims during the Hajj.
Encyclopaedia Judaica, Volume 9, Encyclopaedia Judaica Jerusalem, pp. 82 (Under 'Ishmael').

LagosShia:

your bible said Abraham sacrificed his only son.naturally Ishmael was born before Isaac.so it only makes sense that at the time Abrahamd had only one son,that son must have being Ishmael.Isaac (may peace be upon them) could never have being his father's "only" son!!!

then as for your second question of how according to you the son of a slave woman "usurp" the position of a free woman,your bible again will give the answer to that:

The Right of the Firstborn In The Bible
Deuteronomy 21:15-17
“If a man has two wives, and he loves one but not the other, and both bear him sons but the firstborn is the son of the wife he does not love, when he wills his property to his sons, he must not give the rights of the firstborn to the son of the wife he loves in preference to his actual firstborn, the son of the wife he does not love.He must acknowledge the son of his unloved wife as the firstborn by giving him a double share of all he has. That son is the first sign of his father’s strength. The right of the firstborn belongs to him”.

"forsbel" you dont have to be this silly and dishonest.this was a topic that was discussed less than a month ago.so why bring it up again?may be you suffer from memory loss!!!

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-819003.64.html#msg9770079

why dont you explain to us what the quran said first?

LagosShia:

The Encyclopaedia Judaica says:

In the tale of binding (surah 37:99-110) Muhammad identified the son who was to be sacrificed as Ishmael and, indeed, the opinion of the traditionalists were also divided on this subject. It is related that a renowned traditionalist of Jewish origin, from the Qurayza tribe, and another Jewish scholar, who converted to Islam, told that Caliph Omar Ibn cAbd al-cAzîz (717-20) that the Jews were well informed that Ismail was the one who was bound, but that they concealed this out of jealousy. The Muslim legend also adds details of Hajar (Hagar), the mother of Ismail. After Abraham drove her and her son out, she wandered between the hills of al-Safa and al-Marwa (in the vicinity of Mecca) in search for water. At that time the waters of the spring Zemzem began to flow. Her acts became the basis for the hallowed custom of Muslims during the Hajj.
Encyclopaedia Judaica, Volume 9, Encyclopaedia Judaica Jerusalem, pp. 82 (Under 'Ishmael').

It is interesting that rather than quote the quran directly, you prefer to go look in the encyclopedia of the jews?

Did Surah 37 really identify the son as ishmael? No it didnt!

life is a journey

[Quote]« #15 on: Today at 02:23:30 AM »

Quote from: LagosShia on Today at 02:12:45 AM
The Encyclopaedia Judaica says:

In the tale of binding (surah 37:99-110) Muhammad identified the son who was to be sacrificed as Ishmael and, indeed, the opinion of the traditionalists were also divided on this subject. It is related that a renowned traditionalist of Jewish origin, from the Qurayza tribe, and another Jewish scholar, who converted to Islam, told that Caliph Omar Ibn cAbd al-cAzîz (717-20) that the Jews were well informed that Ismail was the one who was bound, but that they concealed this out of jealousy. The Muslim legend also adds details of Hajar (Hagar), the mother of Ismail. After Abraham drove her and her son out, she wandered between the hills of al-Safa and al-Marwa (in the vicinity of Mecca) in search for water. At that time the waters of the spring Zemzem began to flow. Her acts became the basis for the hallowed custom of Muslims during the Hajj.
Encyclopaedia Judaica, Volume 9, Encyclopaedia Judaica Jerusalem, pp. 82 (Under 'Ishmael').


It is interesting that rather than quote the quran directly, you prefer to go look in the encyclopedia of the jews? Grin

Did Surah 37 really identify the son as ishmael? No it didnt![/Quote]Yes it did by saying then we announce the news of the future birth of Isiaq [as].

Verse 112; And We gave him good tidings of Isaac, a prophet from among the righteous.

You need to get a new heart that is not so diseased like the one you have in your unyielding breast.

from verses 113 down to 127: And We blessed him and Isaac. But among their descendants is the doer of good and the clearly unjust to himself.[quote][/Quote]We see here that the doer of good maybe believer or just just doer of good in spite of disbelief. the doer of good who is a disbeliever can actually act correctly like the jews who declared from their website that Ishmael was the child of sacrifice, but their ethnic tradition may just prevent them from reverting to Islam. let me give you an example of ethnic pride; last week, i called a jewish friend and our conversation went to many things that we have in common about our private lives. then he said that we should hire many jews because they are very smart [a true statement, even not all smart people are jews and not all jews are smart]. then he added, 'i'm kidding'. i didn't respond to his jews are smart or the i'm kidding one after it. i ignored the statements, tuning him off and counting it on his older age because even if it is true, it is inappropriate to tell me. Alhamdulillah that many jews entered Islam in the lifetime of the messenger [as] and there are jews now and never a time we do not have jewish blood entering Islam.

the doers of evil who are clearly unjust to themselves from the children of Isaac will definitely are disbelievers and do no good and while the christians regard them as the holders of their salvation, while they are eager to kill them when jesus return on convert or die. the muslims however know that the tribe you belong to will not help you, but your true belief in God and obedience to Him honoring Him which is His Right and doing good for His Pleasure will.



37:114 And We did certainly confer favor upon Moses and Aaron.

[Quote]37:115 And We saved them and their people from the great affliction,

37:116 And We supported them so it was they who overcame.

37:117 And We gave them the explicit Scripture,

37:118 And We guided them on the straight path.

37:119 And We left for them [favorable mention] among later generations:

37:120 "Peace upon Moses and Aaron."

37:121 Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.[/Quote]Signs of Allah in Absolute Power and indication that Moses, etc were muslims though children of Israel [mere nations like Ghana, Senegal, etc].

Judek2 has witnessed against himself and we are all witness to it. I hope you know how to wear sunshade in the hotter creation than just the sun?

And the Bible didn't tell us what instruction about religion Abraham gave to his sons [or did he tell them nothing or was he instructed to give Ishmael no religion and skip Isaac, too?], or what Jacob told his children since it seems to me that Isaac was not really important, not being the father of the jews, but Jacob was through his son Judah, while it was Joseph that was most important.

considering the lack of direction of the bible, even choosing christianity, a religion Jesus didn't practiced or sanction [and the church comes to mind, an idea Jesus did not propagate considering how he worshiped God and where he worshiped Him in such a profound way; washing up, standing, bowing, prostrating all night long], we see how one is led in the way of the prophets as jews and christians, when Abraham was neither of the two.

Is there a proof anywhere that Isaac was the sacrificed son, considering the lie that he was the only son, when he had a big brother, unless we are saying he is the only son of his mother, but definitely not his father's? we should also note that his mother is not the Friend of God nor the one God had agreement of covenant with [what is that covenant, christian people? i bet you don't know it, considering whatever you say will be spiritually empty].

God didn't name isaac, it was his mother who he was the apple of her eyes that named him, while God named Ishmael the true apple of the eyes of Abraham, the Friend of God, considering that the bible writers could not write out Ishmael from their history so much so that they had to mention that he buried his father [one wonders if his father truly abandoned him, how did he know when his father died and was able to participate in his burial, while the same is not said of Esau the deceived brother of Jacob?].

how does a man was patient, never lost his place or sold his 'birth right [i bet the jews are regretting that they didn't say Ishmael too sold his birth right, instead they show that he was able to connect with his father up to the father's burial], suddenly is not the only child of his father for sometime before the younger brother was born, and thank God nothing evil predicted in the Bibles happened to him rendering the angels and the gods of the bibles powerless, while Allah protected the lad?

where was the spot of the attempt to slaughter isaac while hajj and most of its rites were the remembrance the event of the attempt to slaugher Ismail [as] in Makka?

Ishmael was the child of a slave woman, Hagar was not the wife of Abraham. Thus , the child of the slave woman belonged to the wife of Abraham.

Isaac was the child of the free woman and the wife of Abraham.

He was the heir of the promise.

Muhammad was a LIAR Par excellence.

He has pulled the wool over your eyes !!!

davidylan:

It is interesting that rather than quote the quran directly, you prefer to go look in the encyclopedia of the jews?

Did Surah 37 really identify the son as ishmael? No it didnt!

i posted twice.in my first post i presented Quranic verses (you can see them in the link where i spoke with you).yet you turn a blind eye to that and talking about me quoting from a jewish encyclopaedia.i'm sure that hurt you so much to find out that even the jews admit to the truth!

reading the verses in Surah 37 of the Quran i presented in the link and observing the sequence narrated,should clarify to you that Isaac came after Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son.i have answered you here:
https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-819003.64.html#msg9774228

Holy Quran 37:99-113
Abraham said: “I am going to my Lord; He will guide me. Lord, grant me a righteous son.” (In response to this prayer) We gave him the good news of a prudent boy; and when he was old enough to go about and work with him, (one day) Abraham said to him: “My son, I see in my dream that I am slaughtering you. So consider (and tell me) what you think.” He said: “Do as you are bidden. You will find me, if Allah so wills, among the steadfast.” When both surrendered (to Allah’s command) and Abraham flung the son down on his forehead, We cried out: “O Abraham, you have indeed fulfilled your dream. Thus do We reward the good-doers.” This was indeed a plain trial. And We ransomed him with a mighty sacrifice, and We preserved for him a good name among posterity. Peace be upon Abraham. Thus do We reward the good-doers. Surely he was one of Our believing servants. And We gave him the good news of Isaac, a Prophet and among the righteous ones. And We blessed him and Isaac. Among the offspring of the two some did good and some plainly wronged themselves.