raumdeuter:
Ok more slack. Pre 1998. Now get to work

you are a glorified simpleton!
has any player had the AM role named after him like makelele or what's the basis of your question.

you have been lying to us all day that matthaus was a defensive midfielder & yet no article after internet became popular have it so. makelele had the role named after him - you are now screaming like a rhesus monkey that matthaus was a defensive midfielder.

matthaus wasn't - he was never a specialist like makelele. very soon, you would say rooney is a defensive midfielder because he tracks back.

LOL this thread is becoming more interesting. Yesterday it was Jagielka better than Terry argument today it is another one.

coogar:

his own teammates said makelele's departure was the reason they failed to reach the high standard they had set before .

If He was the reason why they never reached the high standard they set beforehand then why didn't He win the CL afterwards with chelsea?

Paulo Sousa as Dayo mentioned earlier has got more of a case than Makalele. Not only did He win the CL the very next season with Dortmund but also Juve are yet to taste CL sucess since he left them

coogar:

that article was written after 2003. an article that mentioned benitez as liverpool's manager wasn't written pre-2003. it seems there's wool in your ears.

it seems you don't understand why a role was named after makelele. for the others before him, they were for general purposes. tackling, bombing forward, dribbling, passing(long & short ranges) shooting, crossing, man-marking out star-players, etc

with makelele - he was a specialist!
he just does the basics attached to defending. anything outside that echelon isn't his responsibility. makelele's role was to tackle cleanly, win the ball & pass it 3 yards to the next man. that's what he did week in week out and thus got that specialist role named after him.

Coog you're just regurgitating all you've been saying through the nite.

It would be pretty hard for us to be on a common ground if you keep on denying the fact that Claude possessed limited skillset.

A pre-2003 article isn't going to help issues here. The most important thing about the article you just read was that Redondo, Rijkaard et al whom you've been claiming all nite are CMs were identified as DMs.

Now I'd love to take this debate to a new level.

Who is a Defensive Midfielder?

coogar:
makelele had the role named after him - you are now screaming like a rhesus monkey that matthaus was a defensive midfielder.

Who apart from the English Journos calls it the "Makalele Role"?

chic2pimp:
If He was the reason why they never reached the high standard they set beforehand then why didn't He win the CL afterwards with chelsea?

because chelsea aren't traditionally a champions league giant. you just don't join a big club spending money & win the champions league. there's a tradition to this & a technical know-how! if he had joined a european powerhouse like ac milan, liverpool, united or bayern, he would have won the CL.

Paulo Sousa as Dayo mentioned earlier has got more of a case than Makalele. Not only did He win the CL the very next season with Dortmund but also Juve are yet to taste CL sucess since he left them

no, he hasn't!
paulo sosa was never a specialist - i dunno why his name is being brought up. we are talking about a specialist & you are bringing up a no-mark name to sway an argument.

so you are a security officer whose job is to open the gate, sweep the surrounding for invaders, watch CCTV, etc

and another man just stays by the gate. nothing concerns him with CCTV or looking for invaders in the premises. his speciality is just the gate. he could tell from the knock on a gate whether it's a man or a woman or a kid. they call this man a gateman or used his name(kasali) to describe his role.


you mean the first security officer = kasali?

raumdeuter:

Injury robbed Redondo of his accolades. The level Redondo was playing before he got injured Makelele never matched it

Which Injury?? Redondo spent 6 years in Madrid and he racked up 165 appearances. (This does not signify he was injury prone at Madrid)..

When he left for AC milan, he was already 31 years Old. it was that time he was battling with Injuries.. The reason was obvious he was already past his Prime.. and he racked up 16 appearances in 4 years..( If you are 31 years old, and you are a footballer, you are already past your prime)

And yet Makelele spent 3 Years in Madrid, racking up 94 appearances, and he won everything Redondo won in 6 Years, short of 1 Champions league..

So what are U saying..?

chic2pimp:
If He was the reason why they never reached the high standard they set beforehand then why didn't He win the CL afterwards with chelsea?

Paulo Sousa as Dayo mentioned earlier has got more of a case than Makalele. Not only did He win the CL the very next season with Dortmund but also Juve are yet to taste CL sucess since he left them

This was the same Madrid that won two CL titles in 1998 and 2000 (with Redondo as Anchor 98, 2000 and Captain in 2000) before Makelele joined. Now Makelele is the reason Madrid didn't win for 10 years.

Nevermind that Chelsea didn't win the CL with Makelele.

Makelele spend 3 yrs in madrid, How come he was only able to win just 1 CL. yet we are made to believe if he had stayed in madrid they would be winning every season

Bimfo:

Which Injury?? Redondo spent 6 years in Madrid and he racked up 165 appearances. (This does not signify he was injury prone at Madrid)..

When he left for AC milan, he was already 31 years Old. it was that time he was battling with Injuries.. The reason was obvious he was already past his Prime.. and he racked up 16 appearances in 4 years..( If you are 31 years old, and you are a footballer, you are already past your prime)

And yet Makelele spent 3 Years in Madrid, racking up 94 appearances, and he won everything Redondo won in 6 Years, short of 1 Champions league..

So what are U saying..?

How old was makelele before he became known as a good Defensive midfielder?

Makeleles best yrs came around his 30yrs mark too

So what are you saying

Coogar I'm waiting for my answer.

Who's a DM?

Katsumoto:
This was the same Madrid that won two CL titles in 1998 and 2000 (with Redondo as Anchor 98, 2000 and Captain in 2000) before Makelele joined. Now Makelele is the reason Madrid didn't win for 10 years.

Nevermind that Chelsea didn't win the CL with Makelele.

take it up with hierro that thought so.....abi? even steve mcmanaman felt makelele's departure hurt madrid's chances in europe.

AirborneLacer: Coogar I'm waiting for my answer.
Who's a DM?

makelele = DM
any other player in this day & age lying to you he's a DM or being described as DM and yet bombs forward to serve other general purposes isn't a DM, he's a CM.

as a DM, you just sit there & babysit your centre-halves. this is why claude is great. asking every player to play outside their comfort zone is what is ruining football these days. you now have non-specialists - jack of all trades, master of none.

Katsumoto:

So Italian fans must not have been impressed with Tardelli's goal in the 82 WC because they weren't obsessed with stats and only wanted their MF Anchor to sit in front of the defense.

Madrid winning the Champions league 10 years after the last one had nothing to do with Makelele. Did Madrid not win without Makalele? Or did Chelsea win the CL with Makelele?

Makelele did what he was meant to do but others did as he did and did more. He was exceptionally limited.

A strong case could be made that he probably his the reason for why that Madrid team never ruled UCL except for that one time, because it isn't for lack of attack cause this team was loaded in that direction,am not saying he is going to be the most best player on the team just a very important one.
Chelsea where just beginning to find there feet in the UCL after a few dormant period so for them to go from zero to hero because of one player in a few years is unheard of.
Brendan Rogers said Liverpool lost the League not because of Slippery Steve but because of the Red card of Jordan Henderson in the man city match.Jordan isn't the best player in liverpool but he couldn't be replaced.

SIRcumalot:
A strong case could be made that he probably his the reason for why that Madrid team never ruled UCL except for that one time, because it isn't for lack of attack cause this team was loaded in that direction,am not saying he is going to be the most best player on the team just a very important one.
Chelsea where just beginning to find there feet in the UCL after a few dormant period so for them to go from zero to hero because of one player in a few years is unheard of.
Brendan Rogers said Liverpool lost the League not because of Slippery Steve but because of the Red card of Jordan Henderson in the man city match.Jordan isn't the best player in liverpool but he couldn't be replaced.

i can't believe you still have to explain this to them. jeeez - of all the billionaire sugardaddy clubs, how many of them have won the champions league? from PSG to monaco to city to malaga to anzhi.....

these things just don't happen - the european powerhouses still rule the roost. chelsea were still wet behind the ears when makelele was there. that they even played several semis & a final then was a testament to the excellent management of that squad.

even with that, a useless liverpool side took out chelsea twice & won it before chelsea ever did. the CL is about tradition. clubs who have won it several times before have the advantage over the rich kids. this is why it would take man city a while before getting the holy grail even if they sign 12 makeleles.

coogar:

because chelsea aren't traditionally a champions league giant. you just don't join a big club spending money & win the champions league. there's a tradition to this & a technical know-how! if he had joined a european powerhouse like ac milan, liverpool, united or bayern, he would have won the CL

So are you now saying the reason why Maka did not win another CL trophy was because he did not join a big enough club who would won it anyways regardless of whether claude joined them or not?

So you admit Real would have won it in 02 regardless of makakele's participation? After all this was the same club that won in 98 and 00 with Nando Redondo orchestrating plays from the DM/CM position.

coogar:
paulo sosa was never a specialist - i dunno why his name is being brought up. we are talking about a specialist & you are bringing up a no-mark name to sway an argument.
so you are a security officer whose job is to open the gate, sweep the surrounding for invaders, watch CCTV, etc
and another man just stays by the gate. nothing concerns him with CCTV or looking for invaders in the premises. his speciality is just the gate. he could tell from the knock on a gate whether it's a man or a woman or a kid. they call this man a gateman or used his name(kasali) to describe his role.
you mean the first security officer = kasali?

How can Sousa a member of Portugal's golden gen be a no name? A player that was more famous than Maka before the Maka hype went into overdrive a no name? If not for the injuries that pretty much cut his career short, You would have heard more about him.

I keep hearing about the defensive mid spot being named after Makalele but I am yet to hear anyone apart from Alan Hansen and a couple of english journos call it just that.

SIRcumalot:
A strong case could be made that he probably his the reason for why that Madrid team never ruled UCL except for that one time, because it isn't for lack of attack cause this team was loaded in that direction,am not saying he is going to be the most best player on the team just a very important one.

I would ask you also.

Makelele played 3 seasons in madrid and won 1 CL, So why would this same player be the reason they werent winning back to back when he left?

madrid won it 2 time in 3 yrs before Makelele joined and once in makeleles time, So how does it make sense to claim he was behind Madrid success to the extent of pinning Madrids failure on his departure

chic2pimp:
So are you now saying the reason why Maka did not win another CL trophy was because he did not join a big enough club who would won it anyways regardless of whether claude joined them or not?

no, i am saying madrid would have won more in the 2000s had makelele stayed. he was already familiar with his madrid team-mates with an excellent chemistry. bringing chelsea into the fray is a redundant argument.

So you admit Real would have won it in 02 regardless of makakele's participation? After all this was the same club that won in 98 and 00 with Nando Redondo orchestrating plays from the DM/CM position.

no, they wouldn't have!
they had no engine. zidane described makelele as the engine of the team. hierro said claude was their best player if you disregard the statistics. they know him better than you do, i would rather listen to them than listen to you & dayo.

How can Sousa a member of Portugal's golden gen be a no name? A player that was more famous than Maka before the Maka hype went into overdrive a no name? If not for the injuries that pretty much cut his career short, You would have heard more about him.

how many world cup finals did he reach with portugal? how many european championships did he win? paolo who? once again - you are comparing a general practitioner to a brain surgeon.

I keep hearing about the defensive mid spot being named after Makalele but I am yet to hear anyone apart from Alan Hansen and a couple of english journos call it just that.

that's because the others who would have said so can't speak english - and you wouldn't understand whatever it was they musta said about makelele. the absence of evidence isn't the evidence of absence.

there's a difference between a specialist and a general purpose individual. the specialist is 100% focused on a particular role & he does it to death. the general purpose dude has a general idea over everything but he can never be as good in the role the specialist is trained to do.


this is why claude is the greatest!

coogar:

makelele = DM
any other player in this day & age lying to you he's a DM or being described as DM and yet bombs forward to serve other general purposes isn't a DM, he's a CM.

as a DM, you just sit there & babysit your centre-halves. this is why claude is great. asking every player to play outside their comfort zone is what is ruining football these days. you now have non-specialists - jack of all trades, master of none.

I knew you'd say this.

If I were to ask you who a CB is, you'd probably tell me that ''He's someone who is presented with a simple duty - To defend''.

It doesn't work that way, not anymore. Just like CBs are seen scoring goals for fun these days, DMs are expected to maraude upfield, score goals, dictate the tempo of the game and grab assists. Anyone who simply babysits the backfour all in the name of carrying out the primary function of a DM lacks some skills - It's a fact!

Now let me take you through the words of Patrick Viera on what is required of a 'Complete DM':

www.performance.fourfourtwo.com/pro-tips/patrick-vieira-how-to-be-a-midfield-destroyer

I now expect you to agree with our assertion that Claude Makelele possessed limited skillset.

Katsumoto:

This was the same Madrid that won two CL titles in 1998 and 2000 (with Redondo as Anchor 98, 2000 and Captain in 2000) before Makelele joined. Now Makelele is the reason Madrid didn't win for 10 years.

Nevermind that Chelsea didn't win the CL with Makelele.

Kats you dey read my post ni? . Pretty much what i wrote really.

I wonder who we will blame for Bayern's failure to win the CL from 01 till 2013 or Milan failing to win it from 94 til 03 or liverpool's barren period from 84 till 05?

coogar:
how many world cup finals did he reach with portugal? how many european championships did he win? paolo who? once again - you are comparing a general practitioner to a brain surgeon.

How many world cup did Makelele win, How many Euro cup did he win, How many World cup did he win

Sousa won 2 CL tell us how many trophies makelele won as a starter

AirborneLacer:
I now expect you to agree with our assertion that Claude Makelele possessed limited skillset.

of course he does possess limited skillset but that limitation is the reason he was able to master his role & be better at it than any player that has ever lived.

if he could do any other thing, a manager would have asked him to play in the wing or play behind a striker. however, makelele can't do more than tackling, excellent vision & making 3-5 yard passes. this enabled him to master only one role like goalkeepers do.

raumdeuter:

How many world cup did Makelele win, How many Euro cup did he win, How many World cup did he win

Sousa won 2 CL tell us how many trophies makelele won as a starter

all that is irrelevant to the discourse.

the role is makelele role, not sosa role.
never ever compare a specialist like makelele to generalists like matthaus, redondo, etc. makelele is their grandfather in the art of babysitting the back four......when it comes to shooting on target, doing 50 bicycle kicks or dribbling 11 players to score, then it's a different issue entirely.

raumdeuter:

Why did he win just 1 CL with the same Madrid galacticos in 3 seasons.

Seriously it is just like saying ronaldo de liam and Ibra weren't the best in their positions because of the lack of a CL title
Also Madrid did not even win a trophy for the next three years after his departure with all the stars they had at that time
lastly count the no of teams that won the CL in the modern era more than once in 3yrs

coogar: all that is irrelevant to the discourse.

the role is makelele role, not sosa role.
never ever compare a specialist like makelele to generalists like matthaus, redondo, etc. makelele is their grandfather in the art of babysitting the back four......when it comes to shooting on target, doing 50 bicycle kicks or dribbling 11 players to score, then it's a different issue entirely.

Were you not the one asking us how many finals Sousa got to? And when you were owned you beat a retreat

You still havent proved how Makelele was the reason Madrid wasnt winning CL after his departure.

Its called Makelele role by morronic English journalists and queers like you who swallow their cumm.

No be the same English media tell us say only 2 German players would make the English team in 2010, We saw how that panned out on that cold night in Blomfontein

raumdeuter:

I would ask you also.

Makelele played 3 seasons in madrid and won 1 CL, So why would this same player be the reason they werent winning back to back when he left?

madrid won it 2 time in 3 yrs before Makelele joined and once in makeleles time, So how does it make sense to claim he was behind Madrid success to the extent of pinning Madrids failure on his departure

the answer to that question lies in who Makelele replaced when he came to Madrid and who replaced him when he left

TheCarefreeOne: Seriously it is just like saying ronaldo de liam and Ibra weren't the best in their positions because of the lack of a CL title
Also Madrid did not even win a trophy for the next three years after his departure with all the stars they had at that time
lastly count the no of teams that won the CL in the modern era more than once in 3yrs

Madrid was already winning before makelele won 2 in 3 yrs, So claiming Makelele was the reason they won is false.

They won only once in 3yrs of Makelele. Thats the fact

raumdeuter:

Madrid was already winning before makelele won 2 in 3 yrs, So claiming Makelele was the reason they won is false.

They won only once in 3yrs of Makelele. Thats the fact

so how many times did they win after he left or should we forget that they struggled to get into the semifinals post-makelele.
Besides makelele staying at Madrid could not guarantee CL titles (even messi or Ronaldo cannot guarantee CL titles) but understating the difference is wrong

raumdeuter:
Were you not the one asking us how many finals Sousa got to? And when you were owned you beat a retreat

owned by who? makelele played in 2 CL finals, makelele played in a world cup final. list sosa's achievements concerning the 2 biggest football competitions for club & country.

You still havent proved how Makelele was the reason Madrid wasnt winning CL after his departure.

maybe you are spiritually blind, i have quoted hierro for you. he knows the team more than your ogbomosho logic & he's not an english journalist.

Its called Makelele role by morronic English journalists and queers like you who swallow their cumm.

it's called makelele role cos he was a specialist. you are too daft to differentiate between a generalist & a specialist.

use a fraction of your weekly wage to cop an oxford dictionary.

No be the same English media tell us say only 2 German players would make the English team in 2010, We saw how that panned out on that cold night in Blomfontein

yes, hierro works for the english media.
abeg, you have been beaten bluish blackish in this debate. it's your lack of decorum that is still making you yap your mouth.

claude makelele is the greatest DM that ever played the game & his name was given that role & rightly so. he was a specialist....tackle, win the ball, pass it, rinse & repeat.

tell us any other midfielder that had these tasks as their only assignment.

coogar:

owned by who? makelele played in 2 CL finals, makelele played in a world cup final. list sosa's achievements concerning the 2 biggest football competitions for club & country.

Makelele played in 2 CL finals, Sousa won 2 consecutive CL finals. spot the difference.

TheCarefreeOne: so how many times did they win after he left or should we forget that they struggled to get into the semifinals post-makelele.
Besides makelele staying at Madrid could not guarantee CL titles (even messi or Ronaldo cannot guarantee CL titles) but understating the difference is wrong

So we should forget that the Galacticos Zidane, Figo, Ronaldo Carlos were getting old (over 30yrs or just injured)

It has nothing to do with the fact that their captain and leader fernando hierro retired, It had nothing to do with the Perez "Zidane and pavons" philosophy, yet it was Makelele that made them not to win when he left

They were winning before he came, So he couldnt have been the reason they won an additional one. The only CL final they won sef, he was subbed out

coogar:

of course he does possess limited skillset but that limitation is the reason he was able to master his role & be better at it than any player that has ever lived.

if he could do any other thing, a manager would have asked him to play in the wing or play behind a striker. however, makelele can't do more than tackling, excellent vision & making 3-5 yard passes. this enabled him to master only one role like goalkeepers do.

This brings us to a common ground then.

1. If Redondo had given up those great features of his just to babysit the backline, there wouldn't be an argument of how great Claude was.

2. If Claude Makelele had taken to other options like scoring goals, assisting etc, he would have been a total joke - one DM we'd dare not talk about.

I love to argue with you for many reasons, one of them is that you know how to logically paint the truth as a lie - You're one of the best here.

Goodnite.

raumdeuter:
Makelele played in 2 CL finals, Sousa won 2 consecutive CL finals. spot the difference.

makelele won in madrid....he didn't tell terry to slip like a bïtch & he certainly wasn't responsible for anelka missing his pen.

makelele played in a world cup final for france. did sosa ever play in a world cup final for portugal?

you are a billy-goat!

AirborneLacer:
This brings us to a common ground then.
1. If Redondo had given up those great features of his just to babysit the backline, there wouldn't be an argument of how great Claude was.

he would have been useless at it. it requires concentration, the ability to read a game, the discipline to stay put when the urge is there to bomb forward, calmness & composure, etc. it's a tough task.

2. If Claude Makelele had taken to other options like scoring goals, assisting etc, he would have been a total joke - one DM we'd dare not talk about.

that's irrelevant.
what's relevant is - he was the best in the role he chose to play as a professional footballer. he's a specialist - there's a reason we have specialists. it's like saying every soldier should be a sniper or a sniper has limited skill in comparison to the other members of his unit.

hell no - the sniper is a specialist. the other members are generalists. the sniper is specially trained to be disciplined, focused, unwavering, etc.

I love to argue with you for many reasons, one of them is that you know how to logically paint the truth as a lie - You're one of the best here.
Goodnite.

once again - makelele shytes on any name you bring forward in the art of sitting in front of the back 4. no mortal is better than makelele in his role.