OLAADEGBU:

@Analissa,

Listen and watch what Afshin a former muslim, who saw the living God.

So? Would you believe me if i said i saw the real Elvis Presley yesterday? Or if i said i saw michael jackson?

I thought not

OLAADEGBU:

It is not only my wish that you live but to live more abundantly (John 10:10).

Thanks

OLAADEGBU:

God doesn't force Himself on anyone even though He created us and gave us free will, it is only proper that this freedom of speech is not taken away from those who wish to exercise it.

If God doesnt force himself on anyone then why should Christians try to force him on others? By integrating prayer into legislation, you would be forcing God on those who don't believe in him. Sure you can excercise your freedom of speech but others should also be able to excercise it by telling you to get out of their face. It is only fair. Besides i notice that most Christians only believe in freedom of speech when it serves their purpose. When used against them it is suddenly a 'hate attack'.

OLAADEGBU:

I can only blame those religious teachers who misled you into thinking that Christianity spread to Africa by the Europeans, there were many pilgrims that congregated at Jerusalem who got converted at Peter's preaching (3,000 of them) many of whom came from Africa and other parts of the then known world and remember that the Ethiopian eunuch who got converted through Philip took the gospel back to Africa. The fact that muslim arabs overtook the northern African countries who used to be christians and forced them to become muslims under the sword does not mean that the gospel was never preached there until the European missionaries came.

I hope you will pardon me if i ignore this part. I've already made my stance on this clear, repeating it would be like speaking to a wall; a waste of time.

OLAADEGBU:

It is even worse in the UK where they are contemplating passing a hate law that will make it criminal to preach that Jesus Christ is the only way, one can go to jail if one preaches that homosexuality is a sin if this law passes. Christianity is now a minority in England whose national flag (St Georges) typifies the cross of Jesus Christ and peace.

The links posted by thehomer has made made your arguement about army chaplains null. Unless you wish to provide evidence that counters his.
Its funny that you call it a hate law now, i can't help but wonder if you would think the same if it became a punishable crime to be atheist or deist.
And as for the homosexuality law, i feel no sympathy. My motto as i've mentioned is 'live and let live' meaning i live my life how i want and anyone else can live theirs how they wish as well. If i disagree with homosexuality, it doesnt give me the right to judge and persecute homosexual people. Preaching that homosexuality is a sin is judging them and persecuting them even if you think you are doing them a favour and bringing them closer to God. I'm sure every gay person knows that according to Christianity it is a sin, you telling them will make no difference.

OLAADEGBU:

It is a pity that some folks believe that they can sit on the fence by being politically correct but the hard truth is that there is no grey areas with God, it is simply a matter of black or white.

By sitting on the fence, i'm not being politically correct, i'm being what i want to be. I will not be pushed into blind agreement and neither will i be pushed into what i see as blind disagreement. I mentioned in an earlier post that there is no middle ground with God and you've merely rephrased it. In the eyes of God and Christianity and most other religions i'm a sinner, unquestionably, but that doesn't automatically mean i'm atheist. I might be deist, there's a lot of middle ground before atheism. And whether you like it or not, it is a middle ground.

OLAADEGBU:

I admit that part of Christianity can be said to be religious when it comes to our duty towards our neighbours but we can only do this when we have this experience with the true and living God. Our relationship is both vertical and horizontal. Vertical when we commune with God and horizontal when we relate with our fellow human beings, we cannot say we do the latter when we ignore the former.

Look no amount of dressing it up will make it into what it's not. If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. The fact that someone puts clothes on it won't make it human.

OLAADEGBU:

You approached your christianity the wrong way. Christianity is first by faith, for without faith it is impossible to please God (Hebrews 11:6). If you are to come to God you have to come to Him by faith it is only after this that He will reward you. Thomas who was one of Jesus' disciples was reprimanded for insisting to believe only if he sees and touches the pierced hands and side, Jesus promised that blessed are those who believe Him even though they don't see Him. The way of the world is different from the ways of God, the way of the world is seeing is believing while the way to God is believing is seeing. There are exceptional cases where God shows Himself to people and I will post a video clip of one who experienced this but we have a sure word of prophecy which is the Bible where we base our faith upon, God speaks to us through His Word and His Words never fails because Jesus is the Word of God that never fail. His Word says if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead you shall be saved (Romans 10:9). Take that to the bank it is a sure banker.

We seem to be rushing ahead of ourselves here. Lets get one thing straight; i am not Christian.
Now lets move on. According to hebrews faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen, right? Then the way i see it, if i hoped that my cotton would be wet on a dry day that would be having faith, wouldn't it? well if after hoping nothing happens doesnt that mean it can't happen? If it can't happen by faith then what else? The disciples got plenty of evidence while he was alive and had enough reason to believe he could come back from the dead. I, unfortunately, don't have that priviledge as the only thing i have ever asked for has been denied every single time. 13x52= 676. I have asked 676 times and have been denied 676 times and counting.

OLAADEGBU:

As I said earlier, that the first 4 commandments shows our relationship towards God our Creator while the other 6 is about our relationship towards our fellow human beings. Those questions if we answered them sincerely and consciously we would realise that we have failed one way or the other because we do not have the strength to comply with the standard set by God because of our fallen and sinful nature. God is so holy that He cannot behold iniquity (wrong doing) for this reason He sent His only begotten Son to pay the death penalty that we owe because of our sin so that we can be reconcilled back to God as we trust in the blood of Jesus Christ that was shed. It is this faith that we receive the impartation of God's righteousness through the Holy Spirit so that we are then free to serve God in righteousness and holiness.

All this proves to me is that if God did create us, he created us imperfect deliberately so he could watch as Christtians strive to achieve perfection and laugh. Why bother creating us and then setting standards we can never attain knowing that we could never attain it? pointless, or sadistic.

OLAADEGBU:

Google may not always give you the answers you want but the Bible gives you the past, present and future information that you need for this world and the one to come.

Difference being that google while not 100% right all the time can generally be relied on as the truth. The Bible is questionable, like wikipedia really, the content depends on the author and the author isn't necessarily right.

OLAADEGBU:

The Words of God is capable of transforming your mind that you would begin to think the thoughts of God.

Or you could just believe that to justify the reason you think your thoughts are God.
Is this a physical, chemical or purely pychological transformation? Is there any difference in chemical transmitters? brain shape? function? is a new hemisphere added? Please explain, i'm curious.

OLAADEGBU:

You might have read many things about the Queen of England but you don't know her the way her husband knows her. To know her intimately you need to develop a living relationship with her and the same goes with God, many people might have read the Bible but not many have developed that loving, living relationship with Him. Do you realise that knowing the author of a book would make it more interesting and easier to read and follow?

Firstly, i'm quite positive that i do not want to know her the way her husband does. Secondly, if i googled it i could see the face of dear old lizzie. Even if i don't know her, i know of her and i can clearly see she exists. Bad analogy.
And did you know that reading a book from the author's point of view is tediously boring as it limits the imagination of the reader? It's like watching a movie really, yes it's easier to follow but its also limiting because i can't imagine how i want things to look. They are already a certain way, a way i can't change.

wow some really harsh stuff here by non-christians
Live and let live is my policy and that includes Christians.

OLAADEGBU:

I pretty much agree with most of what you said here but where we disagree is the fact that socialism is taking over what the founding fathers of America based their declaration on. Prayer used to be made in the executive, legislative and judiciary arms of the Government until these socialists who are essentially communists are making efforts to remove its practise. The 10 commandments used to be in all the official buildings but they have now been brought down. Prayers used to be made in the school's public assembly but this is now a thing of the past. The Bible used to be taught in schools and higher institutions but now the religion of evolutionism has now replaced it masquerading as "science" which has turned students into atheists who say they are secular humanists. Most politicians would lie that they are christians when they are not so as to get the people's votes.

Making prayer the basis of judgement is simply a sign of ignorance, yes people can pray if they want but forcing it on others is wrong and will be classed as infringement of rights. If you're a christian and God has given everyone free will, who are you to take it away?
Most of the commandments are common sense. Something i'm quite sure people will have concluded on whether or not they are christians. About the praying at school thing, i've already said that prayer has no place in government and institutional rules. There is no reason why an atheist child should pray. Evolutionism/darwinism is not a religion and even if it was, it is one based on scientific research and study which enables it to be classified as science. If adam and eve's skull are discovered in asia today, then creationism will be attached to the syllabus.

OLAADEGBU:

This is what I am saying, that evolutionists teaches you about what christianity is about. Christianity is different from what you know as religion. Puritans who were real christians could not compromise their faith and as a result had to flee to America, I don't think that you will know the difference because christianity is a relationship with God not religion as you know it. For your information, Christianity started with the disciples of Jesus and I believe you know that Jesus and his disciples were not caucasians or british as you may have been taught, they were Jews who spread Christianity to Africa and beyond, taking the Ethiopian eunuch for instance.

I've read the bible and if you dont believe that Jesus is your lord and saviour and blah blah blah, you're not christian. And only after that comes the whole relationship with God. i learnt about christianity from church (which i still go to every week) so dont patronise me.
I'm offended that you seem to believe that i think Jesus is "caucasian". why would i? i never said christianity originated from europe, i said it was introduced to america from europe, two different things.
since what i'm saying doesnt seem to be sticking with you i'll say it once again and never mention it: the majority of africans (certainly nigerians) did not embrace Christianity until French and British colonization. They worshipped idols

OLAADEGBU:

For your information, the American soldiers have chaplains representing different religious faiths, the christian soldiers in the U.S. army are entitled to a christian chaplain who is to pray for them but they can't now pray in the name of Jesus because the name of Jesus has been censored that it cannot be said even when they are praying for christian soldiers. Can they tell the muslim chaplains not to use the name of Mohammad? Your guess is as good as mine.

Then that would be a strange situation. I dont know enough about american army procedures so i cant really verify or not but as far as i'm aware, the same cant be said for Britain.

OLAADEGBU:

There is no sitting on the fence here, it is either you believe the Word of God or that you trust in the philosophies of sinful men and it is pretty obvious what choice you have made.

Wrong, there is no sitting on the fence with serving God but i dont automatically have to follow another doctrine if i choose not to believe in Christianity. I can sit on the fence for as long as it is a rational decision.

OLAADEGBU:

Christianity is different from all the religions you listed there, it is a personal living relationship with your Creator. We are meant to endeavour to know Him in a personal way as you would know your loved ones. Religion is a dead end which will not take you to the Creator but Jesus will.

religion= a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a supernatural agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
so as you can very clearly see, christianity is a religion
If Christianity was only about having a relationship with God, then i'm Christian. Every sunday i tell God that if he proved himself to Gideon, he should prove himself to me. I dont hold my breath and as you can imagine, it hasnt happened. my cotton ball is wet when it rains and dry when it doesnt.

OLAADEGBU:

Allow your conscience to answer the questions of the 10 commandments above to discover the absolute Morality and see where you stand.

I have but i dont understand what this shows

OLAADEGBU:

If you drive do you ask to see the makers of the car before you believe they exist? Why then do you ask to see God before you believe that He exists? If you really wanted to see Him in flesh and blood you would have seen Him 2,000 years ago but you arrived too late, you might have a chance if you believe Him now before you see Him. His second coming is around the corner.

I dont ask because i know if i went on google, it would no doubt tell me everything about the maker down to the name of his/her dog. The same can't be said for God so choose a better example. No one has ever seen God, they have only presumably seen Jesus who claimed to be the son of God. surely not the same thing. And no one is ever going to see him even if he did create the earth and stuff.

OLAADEGBU:

There is no doubt that people hear demons ask those who made such claims for their experiences but if you are determined to hear God you will hear Him and He speaks clearly through His Word and Spirit for true worshippers would worship Him Spirit and Truth, that is why you need to get your spirit alive so as to hear Him speak in accents clear and still.

Or you just hear your own thoughts,

OLAADEGBU:

If I want to know you personally all I need to do is to make enquiries and the same goes for your Creator, if you are willing and are determined to know Him intimately you will find Him when you seek for Him with your whole heart and mind and it is easy, simply repent from your sins and turn to Him by faith and see the Spirit of God regenerate your spirit so that you can communicate with Him on a personal level.

If you ask, you get vague descriptions about what he is but you dont get any proof (talk to him or see him) so that is moot really. I can talk all i want about an imaginary friend but that doesnt make him any less imaginary.

^^ ha no not a scientist unfortunately i would be too impatient to make any worthwile discoveries. I'm afraid i'm just one of those people who want to know all they can and read physics textbooks for fun.

I'm not sure what you're asking for when you say opinions on antimatter but i've never really considered it so my thoughts are more questions than opinions.
I don't know much about it other than the basic fact that it is obviously the opposite of matter formed by the similar particles with an opposite charge.
Something that's always puzzled me about antiparticles is antineutron. antiparticles have the opposite charge of a particle but a neutron is neutral. what's the opposite of a neutral charge? technically an antineutron should just be a neutron which then leads me to ask why would an antineutron and a neutron annihilate each other when they are both basically neutrons?
Also i dont know how much help these antiparticles would be for the scientists currently attempting to create antimatter as they only live for a short amount of time before the annihilate.
Although i must admit that i am intrigued by the idea of annihilation. Not that i wish destruction on the earth as i am quite fond of it but if big enough antimatter was successfully created would it be enough to annihilate our planet? ofcourse it would have to be the size of the earth but i'm just wondering if it is possible.
Or is there an already existing galaxy with planets of antimatter? being from another galaxy would mean they had no chance of coming into contact with us but it would be an interesting thing to witness if it did. Would we annihilate in an explosion of energy or would it be boringly anticlimatic and we just vanish from existence?

As i said i'm not very familiar with antimatter mostly because it had only ever been of passing interest to me, nothing i read details into but its definitely an interesting one to consider.

^^ Love the first and second but watching chris rock has made sure i will never wear clear heels

koastar:

The DNA test will not bring out anything different because the baby is purely white not coloured _{(half cast)} from a pure black woman

The baby doesnt have to be "coloured" to be mixed race. If the white parent is blonde or redhaired and has light colored eyes the baby is more likely to look white than black as these are recessive genes. The only thing is that there is now more chance that the brothers/sisters will be dark. It's really not as impossible as people would like to believe. Especially given the blonde hair of the child.
As i said before, it would only be interesting if both parents are fully black.

imhotep:

S/he who ASKS errs. . .
S/he who ANSWERS errs . . .

So what are we to do? blindly believe

Deep Sight:

No problemo, Monalisa!

It pains me that you would take a name that means something as beautifully poetic as "graced with God's bounty" and change it to something so common and painfully plain as "noble"

Deep Sight:


You might want to review this. I am at pains to see that it has even the remotest connection with the discussion of an uncaused cause - for I did not state that the singularity was a cause - I rather pointed to the fact that the big bang was NOT a cause given that something pre-existed it. It therefore could not conceivably the the cause of that which pre-existed it or the cause of ALL existence - since it certainly did not cause the singularity, did it?

The article points out that the "big bang" need not be the sudden existence and explosion of matter and energy in a void but a coming to being of time and as such a universe. This has no cause, certainly no conceivable one anyway.

Deep Sight:


What caused the singularity to be?

I say God. You can tell me it was magic.

As i've said, nothing as far as i can tell.

Deep Sight:

The cosmological argument does not assert that everything needs to be caused. It asserts that "whatever begins to exist has a cause."

Now this is only perfectly rational and logical, for if something begins to exist at a point, then there must have been a trigger for that event: otherwise the event would not happen. God is not said to begin to exist, and as such does not require a cause. There are other things that are eternal in nature, do not begin to exist, but rather have always existed: such things do not require a cause as they are self-existent. Examples of such things are time (eternity), and numbers. These do not begin to exist at any point and as such they do not require a trigger to exist as they are self-existent.

However anything that begins to exist at a point is clearly not eternal or self-existent. Such things rationally require a trigger to kick-start their existence, since they begin.

The universe has not always existed. The fact of its expansion shows us that it is growing from a point, which is what is referred to as the Big Bang. Accordingly once we can see that the universe had a beginning we can deduce that that beginning was triggered by something - a cause - otherwise the expansion would not have happened.

This is based on the premise that the big bang was a sudden appearance of the universe after which it continues expanding, but as i have mentioned already the theory that time and the universe begun to exist together is still concievable.
The gravitational theory that the universe exists as a result of the conditions required for the universe to (for want of a better word) pop into existence is one with a cause the singularity :when the space-time boundary became infinite. If i then decide to follow this what can i say caused the singularity? You say God? well you have no logical proof for this choice. I can choose to say Vishnu did it.

Deep Sight:

As explained above, God is a self-existent entity such as time. Self-existent things exist in and of themselves. They have no beginning. The cosmological argument deals with things that have a beginning. Such things rationally require a trigger, or cause.

I've decided to reply to the whole self existent thing under this.
God is self-existent.
who said? I'm going to go out on a limb here and suggest christians
Where did they get this information from? i would assume the bible
And who wrote the bible? those who began Christianity
So who says God didn't begin to exist? those who began Christianity and in light of my scepticism of the belief in God, those who began the pervasive idea of God.

From this line of thought i can conclude that the thought of God being self-existent was asserted by those who first thought up Christianity. Now why should i believe them when i'm sceptical about the existence of God.

So your argument now begins with an assertion that i do not believe to be fact. At least it is not one based on any empirical fact.
This is how i interpret your argument:
If God exists, he would be self-existent
self-existent things exist in and of themselves
If God existed, he would exist in and of himself
Existing in such a manner would not require a beginning
If God existed, he would not require a beginning
Something that doesn't have a beginning doesn't need a cause
If God existed, he would be without cause

If God existed, the cosmological argument would be a logical conclusion.
See how it works? So now i'm left with the fact that if i believed in the existence if God, i would agree with you but as i am sceptical, i am inclined to disagree.

Deep Sight:

It does end. It ends with an uncaused cause - a self-existent entity/ reality which is eternal in nature and as such does not have a beginning, and having no beginning, requires no trigger. That entity is GOD.

again, i'm not sure i believe in the existence of God so to me this argument is: if God existed, that entity would be God which as i'm sure you know is an hypothetical statement.

Deep Sight:

Is there anything unscientific about the concept of infinity? Science even has a symbol for it - ∞.

Of course not, my comment followed your question about poetry not one about the concept of infinity. read the original post.

OLAADEGBU:

It does not mean that you cannot pray before doing your job or that you cannot use your biblical influence in making important decisions. I know that people keep their faith in the back burner during the week and only dust it when it is time for church service. There is nothing stopping prayers in the educational, industrial, health or Government institutions as the secular humanists will not like to see. When our politicians depend on God and His Word to guide the nation the population would rejoice.

Secularity doesnt mean that you can't pray it simply means you can't shove your religion down someone else's throat. People that "keep their faith on the backburner" arent real Christians and so shouldnt be classified as one because secularity doesn't say dont have a religion instead it means anyone can choose to be of any religion they want or none if they want. Nothing stops people from praying as long as they arent doing it on the phone to a customer or while a teacher is teaching. In fact at my high school they had a prayer room. And i'm pretty sure that if a politician currently running for election was Christian and announced it as part of his campaign he would surely lose. This doesnt mean he shouldnt be a christian, it simply means he should keep it out of running for office as there are numerous non-christians that would appreciate it. (didnt a pastor run for office at one time in nigeria?)

OLAADEGBU:

Thanks for the information, now let's try to understand that Christians undergoing persecution had to escape to America to form a nation under God as evidenced in their declaration of independence. Their liberty was to be under God's Law, they were free to worship God and this freedom also allowed other faiths to practise their faith without Government intervention until the secular humanists came to sabotage this provision to remove God's Word from the institutions even the military chaplains are not allowed to use the name of Jesus in their prayers. And it must be stressed that the disciples of Jesus Christ who were Jews were the ones who spread Christianity to Africa via Ethiopia and north Africa until the Muslims overpowered them by force just as the socialists are doing to the U.S. today.

From where? if you mean England then i really will laugh because in England even the royalty goes to church and has continued to do so for as long as they have been in power. If anyone wanted to run away in those times it would be pagans and other theists because everyone was forced to go to church and i cant see where else those who were "persecuted" would be coming from since we have already established that American settlers were British. Unless you want to say they were Africans now?
Why should a military chaplain use the word Jesus? If he used the word Bohammad or Buddha or Vishnu, would you like it? don't be self centered it is better to have nothing than to represent only one religion. Every religion has equal rights.
I repeat Africans were worshipping idols before british and french colonisation.

OLAADEGBU:

The bible is not just historical of the origins of the universe and of life it is accurate on current and future events, that is why it is fresher than tomorrow's newspaper.

At this point we will agree to disagree

OLAADEGBU:

I can see that you have made the conscious decision to believe the lies of the evolutionists even though they have no clues as to where we originated from. Your decision will determine your destiny.

I dont know if you dont understand me or you refuse to, i indicated in my post before that i am almost as sceptical of Darwinism as i am of religion but as i said i would rather believe darwinnism. That is if i had to choose.

OLAADEGBU:

You have theories and conjectures which puts your feet on shaky grounds. It will be better for you to put your trust in the solid ground of the Word of God your Creator who put His Moral Law in your hardware (conscience) and it does not matter how much you try to silence it with your theories and presuppositions contrary to the alarm bells sounding in your conscience it will not change the fact of wrong and right. Many have silenced their consciences with their ideologies but the Word of God is the software that rekindles the conscience to what God has originally written therein. I know you will not say that you don't believe that a car you drive has no maker, that it just happened by chance, this is the logic we are talking about but it will be folly to ignore the owner's manual and decide to fill a petrol car with diesel because you feel like it.

No i have solid, logical theories and in exchange for it i am being asked to put my blind faith on the shaky ground that is religion. And why must i ascribe to christianity anyway? why shouldnt i be buddhist since it would make me a more pleasant person than christianity would. or why shouldnt i be muslime since it is basically christianity in Arabic with a few tweaks?
I don't deny i have a conscience it is what keeps me from going out to murder people. Why does it have to be given by God and if it was, then why does it malfunction every once in a while if God is so perfect and created things perfectly. Afterall there are serial killers and rapists around and i doubt their conscience bothers them any.
A car is made by someone and if you asked who, you will be shown the maker. Can you show me God? That is logic.

OLAADEGBU:

The proof of His existence to me is that I spoke to Him this morning. We have His Word and His World as witnessess to His existence and for that reason there is not excuse for ignorance on their part. I happy that you are not ignorant of the existence of God but you can give the evidence of God because of His handiwork, I have the evidence that you exist because you have the intelligence to post on this topic. The creatures of God are the evidence I need of the existence of the Creator, and if He created intelligence then He must have the supreme infinite intelligence above all.

There are people who think they've spoken to the ghost of Elvis Presley. Now i'm sure you think thats crazy but isnt it the same thing? I'm certainly not saying you're crazy as i would dearly hope not but i'm just trying to point out that thinking you spoke to him doesnt make it true. Especially since as i understand it he talks to you in your head not out loud. Dont you think it might have been just your thoughts?
You have evidence that someone who writes to you exists but besides my name you have no evidence that it is really me. This is the same as God, you have the finished product and so you make up the person behind it. Only in his case it was chosen more arbitrarily because he didnt tag his name unto the universe he created like i have done to my profile.

DezVienna:

These topics are supposed to be about debate, so cares if you like it. That forces debate. Don't be so damn personal, hell.

what was personal about what i said? Have u ever thought that maybe you're a little too sensitive and misinterpret people

No need to take the offensive as i'm sure i said nothing that can be construed as offensive to you. I agreed with you that people should post where they want so i dont understand what you mean about "stop the hypocrisy" especially as you automatically assume i'm a christian when nothing i have said is at all christian relate. For all you know i'm muslim.
Insulting the idea of a forum for like minded individuals is hypocritic as that is essentially what the muslim forum is.
It's very cynical to assume i'm commenting in order to start an argument when my comment was non-threatening and just my thoughts.

^^ true but the lack of money can also lead to evil. Like if someone living in poverty decides to steal to feed his/her children who havent eaten in days and will surely die if they dont eat. But then this leads to the question is that really evil if the person has no other choice. Does the means justify the end?

^^ It's a bit extreme to compare an atheist to a murderer. I agree that everyone should post where they want but isolating a muslim only forum and then coming back here is a bit much don't you think? If everyone wants to post in the same place then they should remove the muslim only section or at least not discourage others from posting there.

The little extra that everyone should have



Is it arrogance or self confidence?

so would i if a decent topic is suggested.

Deep Sight:

Smile.

Merci, madame.

With respect, madam, I do not see how wilfull ignorance and hope enter this discussion; or anything that I laid out.

I had stated that God is the unity of all infinite reality.

If you agree that -

1. Reality is reality (or more simply put: that things exist) - a self affirming statement -

2. That there may be no limit on existence - thus that reality is infinite

Then you could NOT conceivably arrive at the conclusion that that definition of God is, as you so elegantly misconceived it - "BS."

Ah deepsight we meet again
Forgive my first statement as it is entirely my definition. Fear no that i misconstrued your definition and the affectionate term that i gave was not meant to offend, pardon me if it did.

Deep Sight:

I am both amused and alarmed at this mistatement, especially coming from you.

I stated that God is the uncaused cause of all existence. You have tragically remarked that that may also be said of the big bang. That is a tragic statement because -

1. There existed something before the Big Bang. Scientists call it a singularity. The Big Bang is not said to be an expansion from nothing: it is said to be an expansion from the point of a singularity. There you have it: so a singularity predated the Big Bang - so the Big Bang could NOT be the cause of that singularity, capisce?

What you should ask yourself is what that singularity is: and how and why it existed. It is clear that the big bang does not explain that: nor is it a cause for that: as teh singularity predated the expansion which is referred to as the Big Bang. It would be nice if you would take a moment to reflect before hurling vulgar language, ok?

2. You have no evidence whatsoever to assert to me that the Big Bang was "uncaused." Indeed the Cosmological argument for the existence of God refined by Thomas Aquinas states reasonably and succintly the principle that whatever begins to exist must have a cause. Given that the Big Bang expansion began - then it is a given that it had a cause.

So there, madam, it is altogether misfooted to describe the Big Bang as the uncaused cause of all existence.

Firstly, i am flattered that you hold me in such high esteem as to be alarmed at a supposed scientific error.
On with it, I am well aware of what the singularity is. scientists dont know that the singularity definitely predated the big bang (if indeed the big bang theory is correct) it is simply speculation. Now even if the singularity predated the big bang it isn't a cause. Instead of getting into quantum physics and cosmology i'll direct you to an article that explains the gravitational theory: http://www.fortunecity.com/emachines/e11/86/big-bang.html

Cosmological argument

I have had many discussions about this argument and will now repeat what i always say.

1. Self-contradictory, if everything as you say needs to be caused, what caused God?
2. Usually the response given by whoever is that God is the exception. What i ask is why does the exception have to be God? why can't it be the big bang or the chinese idea of the universe springing out of a pod.
3. The series of cause and effect has to end at some point even when people say it extends to infinity so why cant it regress in a similar way?

Deep Sight:

When the thing being described is said to encapsulate ALL EXISTENCE, then it surely encapsulates all that exists; yes - including Light and Darkness, positive and negative, up and down, plus and minus. . . et all. . .

That is the poetic explanation i was expecting.

Deep Sight:

Don't make me laugh. Next you will attempt to tell me what the gypsies i refferred to are: or what the passion-steamed cave I referred to is.

Clearly suggested meaning and poetry cannot be your strongest suit.

Someone hinted above at the quality of wonder at the reality about us. . .go figure.

nope i deal with fact and science.

toodles

toodles

shoes, hot guys, clothes. in that order


whats your dream job?

@ DezVienna

I live in England, trust me it's multicultural enough.
I'm sorry that you seem to have trouble with people but there's truth in the saying someome can only do to you what you let them do.

@ Deepsight

I've just seen your comment and the discussion has moved past that but i havent seen a response to what thehomer had said so i'll just give a summary of my response.
I agree completely with all thehomer has said so i won't repeat it. This arguement is an interesting one and one i've never considered but at the the same time, the circularity of the argument makes it difficult to agree with or see as a logical conclusion. Circular arguments give hypothetical conclusions and hypothetical conclusions can't really be argued against.
If this can be changed and the 'spiritual energy' explained then perhaps i can see where you're coming from.

justcool:

Dear Analissa, thanks for replying to my post.

You're welcome,

justcool:

You are not very very correct. Your definitions are too elementary. Energy and work are too different things. Energy can exist whitout the ability to do work.

I still stand by my definition because that is the basics of energy and one that when you write pages and pages of definitions it still comes back to. No it can't if there is no potential to do work,there is no energy.

justcool:

What is work?

Work is the product of force and distance.

Example: When you heat a pot of water to boiling point in a stove. You have transferred thermal energy from the fire to the pot and the water but zero work has been done.

I understand now that using the word 'work' was wrong, at least not without making my context clear. when i said work, i didn't mean the scientific work i simply meant the dictionary definition. work= the activity directed toward production or accomplishment of something.

justcool:

The human brain uses that the energy and it can think, is that work?

Energy is inherent in all matter, and you cant have matter without energy. Only at elementary stage do people define energy as the ability to do work. In advanced science classes, that definition is very wrong.

Also consider that the same amount of energy can result in different amount of work done. A car can go 10 miles with a gallon of gasoline while another car can go 15 miles with the same amount of gasoline. Despite this the amount of energy in the gasoline remains constant as much as the mass of the gasoline remains constant. The amount of work done is more closely related to the efficiency of the system and not the energy. Energy is relative to mass(matter) rather than work.

Again i apologise about the word confusion and by my definition the brain is working.
Yes i do agree with you about the fact that there is energy in all matter.

justcool:

First of all, matter is not destroyed. The notion that matter cannot be created or destroyed still stands. You definition of matter is missing a very crucial constituent of matter: Mass. Matter is anything that has mass and takes up space. But this definition is also very elementry.

An advanced view on matter is that matter is condensed energy. So in nuclear reaction, when energy is released and matter is seemingly destroyed; matter is not actually destroyed. One can say that in such cases matter changes its state-- it becomes pure energy.

matter can be destroyed. It is converted to energy and matter is not energy.
I indicated before using it that the definition is the most basic i could use and like the definition of energy, that is the summary of any more advanced definition.
"An advanced view" is that ordinary matter is made up of quarks and leptons which being some of what makes up molecules and atoms includes them but doesn't exclude types of ordinary matter such as white dwarf matter which is carbon, oxygen and degenerate neutrons. Other matter like W and Z bosons i'm not quite sure what they are made of though they have mass. Now energy fits into this whole thing because the mass of ordinary matter (and possibly other types but i'm not certain) is composed due to the binding energy that quarks have.

See why it's easier to use basics?

justcool:

Einstein discovered that the universe's total  matter plus energy is constant: energy can be converted to matter, and matter can be converted to energy.

He came up with the equation: E=mc^2

Yes matter can become energy; matter is actually energy. Here is an intresting article that you might want to read:
http://www.worsleyschool.net/science/files/emc2/emc2.html

One[i] is [/i] equivalent to the other and to some extent they can be used interchangeably but this doent mean that one is the other.

justcool:

The truth is that we are surrounded by energy; everything we see, including ourselves are energy. It is only our brain that gives us the illusion of solidity of matter, and etc. Our brain plays a lot in our perception. The reality which we will never see is that everything is energy. This is really very deep; I dont want to go into it now. Consider the 'wave/particle duality' nature of light.

True but i dont know about the brain theory

justcool:

A car filled petrol cannot move by itself. A man has to drive the car. You need to reread my analogy, you definitely did not understand it. What you described is the mechanism of the movement and not what initiates the movement.

A car filled with petrol is like a dead rat as long as the car does not have a driver. Both systems (car and dead rat) have energy but lack a driver.
Thanks

Yes i should have made it clear when i said the second car hasnt been prompted. what prompts the movement is energy i.e the kinetic energy of a driver turning the ignition. A car filled with petrol and no driver or no one pushing it will not move so if the car does move, it is the energy driving it.

justcool:

The definition of energy that teachers teach at elementry level gives one the wrong impression of what energy is. This erroneous definition of energy makes one think that where something dead, that energy is lost. I remember in secondary school they told me that "Energy is the ability to do work" but this definition is not very correct.

The ability to do work is a characteristic or property of energy and not energy itself. As one grows in science, one learns that energy can reside, be used, exchanged, or transformed, whitout doing any work or without any work being involved.

Energy is one of those things that science finds it very difficult to define. Energy is simply matter; and matter is simply energy.

Energy IS the ability to do work but it is also the potential ability to do work. Without doing work or without the potential ability to do work, there is no energy. see dead rat.

Energy is not matter. Matter in its most basic is anything that takes up space. While there is energy in matter. When matter is destroyed the energy (or potential energy)is released. Matter is not and can never be energy it can only have energy.

justcool:

An analogy might suffice: If two cars have the same amount of matter and energy; and one car is moving while the other is not. One can logically conclude that that which makes the moving car move is not as a result the  matter and energy of car, rather it is an independent entity that drives the car.

No, one can logically conclude that the moving car is making use of the chemical energy in it (petrol) and changing it into kinetic energy to work and heat and sound energy as a by product while the other either doesn't have the same chemical energy or hasn't been prompted to use it. So it is the energy in the car not some spirit entity

OLAADEGBU:

You need to understand the meaning of the separation of Church and State, it does not mean that you cannot practise your religion it means that you have the freedom to practise it without the State infringing on your rights, but secular humanists (which is a religious movement) have taken advantage of this provision to ban religious activities like prayers, the Ten Commandments etc from State buildings and institutions and even public education, thinking that is what a secular Government means.

No secular government means exactly this: the government is seperate from the state and as such should not be mixed with things that concern the state. e.g. schools.

OLAADEGBU:

Do you know where Christopher Columbus came from? For your information, Christianity did not originate from Britain and they were not the first to spread it to Africa the Jews did.

I know perfectly well that Christopher Columbus is italian (i did do world civilization in school) but Columbus was merely the one to create awareness. If we are being technical, the vikings discovered America long before Columbus and these are the same vikings that dominate British heritage. Britain dominated America since 1583 when Walter Rayleigh created Virginia. Britain brought both civilization and christianity to America. Prior to them, it was native indians worshipping the sun or whatever
So why were they worshipping sango before the British colonization? Jews brought Judaism which was soundly rejected (egypt case in point) and is still rejected by the majority of Africans.

OLAADEGBU:

If you want to know about historical facts on the universe and all its contains then the Bible is your best bet. It was inspired by the One who was there in the beginning when He created heaven and earth. There you will read about our ancestors, Adam, the first man and Eve, the mother of all living and consequently Noah from whom the earth spread after the flood. It is either you believe the words of God your Creator or the words of sinful men who where not there at the beginning of creation.

Says who? Christians thats who! all you're saying isnt historical, its biblical (in other words questionable)

OLAADEGBU:

You wouldn't want to believe what Darwin thought of the "black race" or even the female gender if you read his sayings. He believes and claims that your ancestors are baboons and am sure if I call you a baboon you will feel that I insulted you.

I never claimed to believe Darwinism note that i said "If darwinism is to be believed" but even if i did i'd rather think that my ancestors while being primates were strong enough to survive the survival of the fittest and evolve into such beautiful creatures as me rather than believe in a vengeful, murderous God who created me solely for his amusement. and as i look nothing like one i couldnt care less what i descended from.

OLAADEGBU:

Where does absolute morality come from? Adam the first man was created in God's image and we have inherited this image even though it has been tainted by sin we still have some traces of morality that we got from God and that is why God left us a witness in His Testament in the Ten Commandments that reminds us of what God had written in our hardware, that is the reason your conscience will remind you or alert you of the right and wrong things you are doing even though we consciously try to muffle it by our wrong ideologies. The Scriptures are the underlying document that American founding fathers based their constitution on.

Absolute morality as you say to me comes from our inate sense of right and wrong, our conscience. Now why do we have consciences? i truthfully don't know. I have theories but nothing conclusive but i see no reason why we should name every gap in our knowledge God. I don't know the capital of Vietnam but i sure as hell wont conclude that it must be the work of God. You say the scriptures are the underlying document but have no tenable proof besides the fact that you conclude conscience should come from God. Logic doesnt work that way

OLAADEGBU:

The only reason a thief would not see a law enforcement officer when he or she is about to embark on stealing until the long arm of justice catches up with him it is then that he will have to face the consequence. The fact that you cannot see God is not a good reason to conclude that He does not exist. All the laws that affect nature and the universe are controlled by Him and He is the One who put the Moral Law in place and He is the reason why no one can escape the all seeing eyes of God because we would give account of all we did on Judgment Day, there is no escaping of that fact no matter what you decide to believe or not believe. There is a Day of reckoning that is approaching and it is high time we made our way right before it is too late.

Of course not, that will be ignorance. But people dont conclude that just because they cannot see him, they conclude that because there is no proof for his existence and any proof put forward by Christians can mostly be explained by science. You dont have to see sunrays to see and feel its effect. You don't have to see the wind to see and feel its effect. There is no arguement in the rest of that quote.

French is a sexy language but i can speak it so the one i wish i could speak is spanish, it sounds interesting.

Everyone needs to chill and realise that her job is to talk about foreign affairs. The fact that nigeria has internal issues that need to be resolved really isn't her problem. And you need to realise that whether she does her job or not nigeria will still have these problems so lay off her.

However nigeria should be careful where she sticks her mouth. If suicide bombers come to Nigeria for whatever reason it won't be funny.

ugo_2u:

He is never envious nor boils over with jealousy

Exodus 34:14
" for the Lord your God is a jealous God"

i thought i'd seen it all and then this comes along smh.
@poster

1. The declaration of independence declared America to be a secular state. i.e has no religion
2. America was formed by settlers from Britain. And while there isn't any conclusive proof, Britain is seen as the origin of Christianity. At least they were the ones to bring it to America and Africa.
3. Saying we are equal 'historically' is wish washy it doesn't give any proof. I should also point out at the same time that history should be fact, not coming from the Bible.
4. If darwinism is to be believed we all evolved together so of course we would be equal. your arguement isnt solid.
5. There is no 'underlying' docement. The rights of equality was based on morality. As shocking as it seems to believers non-believers do have morals you know. you dont have to believe in God to know that discrimination is wrong.

OLAADEGBU:

Where God designed on a man as a "No Entry" zone must not be infringed upon and if you insist on doing so you do it at your own risk which brings consequences of eternal dimensions that may not be palatable.

Using the same analogy you have used i will explain why his rules are flouted. Imagine having a nameless, faceless government that noone has ever seen or spoken to (at least verifiably) now imagine this phanthom government puts a rule into place with no way of enforcing it and then gives vague promises of jail should you break the rule. Now tell me what would anyone do? especially when the rules some of the rules are ridiculous and serving little or no purpose. We will break it time and time again. and with reason too.

The only difference between God and this phanthom government is that God is purported to have created the earth. A claim with no basis i might add. And yet you wonder why people say screw consequences?

i dont relate at all, if i dont 'do' my hair anyone questioning me is asking for trouble and tbh i havent had anyone look at me and go why isnt your hair done. unless i'm actually at a party or something and my hair looks like i've just rolled out of bed.

these experiences you seem to have i've never had

^^i mite have laughed it off if he hadnt puked. i swear my ferragamos haven't been the same since

I've had bad dates wit nigeria men o. they usually front about the millions they've got in the bank but they sent their cars to the garage and thats why they're taking the train or they tell me how they want me to be like their mothers (cook + clean) and want to marry me after 2 dates. I pick up my stilettos and run.

4. lightening is a discharge of electricity

Deep Sight:

GOD IS -

1. The unity of all infinite reality

2. The uncaused cause of all existence

3. The centrifugal and centripetal core-essence of intangible eternity

4. The flash of lightening glimpsed by the gypsies cuddled in a passion-steamed cave.

This is complete BS but i'll give you points for delivery.

1. don't you mean the unity of willful ignorance and hope?
2. that definition also applies to the big bang, please be specific
3. doesn't make sense at all. something can't be both centrifugal and centripetal they are opposites but i suppose you'll start giving some poetic description how he is both going from the centre and moving toward the centre.

^^ smh at ignorance

vedaxcool:

We are muslims not mohammedans you atheist---->go have your own side and it seems you are quite daft to think that this forums are exculsively meant for atheist and xtians----as if that is the only two religions in the world----it is called the religion section not the christian + atheist section more importantly A forum with a wider audience will provide a robust debate. So atheist go and find your site some place else, instead of spreading hate and isolation. We will continue to post here if you are so pained then jump off a building.

you say it like its an insult