Tayo-D:

@away4real,
I don't know what Bill O'reilly says because I have not listened to him this year, excerpts of his interview with Obama which I saw online.

Let me tell you what doesn't make sense. It doesn't make sense that Obama's associations are radicals. Accepted, Ayers was actively bombing when Obama was 8, but is he repentant now? The answer is No. It's like telling me that my children can easily mingle with Bin Ladin in 40 years time if he stops his active armed struggle today. That Ayers is not actively involved in an armed struggle today does not mean he is a different man. It just means he is probably finding other means to achieve his planned objectives. His statement after 911 reveals just as much.

Will you serve on the same Board with Bin Ladin under any circumstances? Will you? Will you allow an unrepentant terrorist to hold a meet the candidate fund raising event for you in your living room? And why the attempt to cover up that association?

When a hate-monger like Rev Wright is your mentor for 20 years, and you have associations with unrepentant terrorists like Bill Ayers, while someone like Luis Farrakhan calls you the Savior, I have every reason to be weary and suspicous of you.

Is it Obama that is un-repentent, please distinguish the issues. Guilt by association is not the same thing as conniving or soliciting or encouraging, there is nothing like guilt by association.

Again your agrument on serving on the same board with Bin ladin doesnnt pass the common sense test, do u want the list of every one on that board with Ayers including the republicans and business entrepreneurs, please check it for your self.

You say what doesnt make sense is Obama association with radicals, (Tayo truthfully limit reading of all those extreme right sites or listening to only a one sided arguement) is Warren Buffet a radical, Madelin Albright, Susan Rice.

Maybe you don't know any questionable characters so u don't understand. You might have only angels as friends. I have all sorts of friends i am quite accomodating and don't stereo-type peole. I know and understand because those associations can't affect my principles and core values.

OK Obama attended Rev. Wrights church i guess u agree with every thing ur pastor says, Louis Farakhna i guess this is a joke so i take it light hearted as u stated in the other thread.

This line of argument is totally un-intellignt, only the not so enlightened would buy it. Again i am shocked u attempt to predict Obama's character based on this so called "radical" associations alone, if any and leave every other positive association and friends he has.

The summary or logic you suggest is Obama is bad (or as u say suspicious) because he associates with some bad people even if he associates with more good people. I really am shocked.

Tayo-D:

@away4real,
No one doubts the fact that ACORN does a lot of good stuffs and offer good social services to the community. Are we to now ignore their fraudulent actions just because of these?

Shouldn't their tax-exempt status be questioned considering the fact that they are definitely in the bag for the Democrats? Shouldn't they be fined and prosecuted for identity theft for registering an entire football team to vote without their knowledge? Are we to ignore the fact that they registered not only Mickey Mouse but dead people to vote? Should we turn the blind eye that they registered one person 75 times by offering him cigarettes?

Do you realise that they've registerd over 200,000 people who participated in the early voting in Ohio and those voter registration are questionable? Do yuo realise that Bush won Ohio at the last election by less than 200,000 votes? That was the election that gave him the presidency. And do you realise that Obama has given them over $200,000 from his campaign contribution. And even though Obama tried to minimise his association with ACORN, facts are emerging that he is more tied to them.

Are we to ignore this knowing that Obama's prior elective victories were not without some electoral shenanegans? Abeg, open yah eyes.
And tell me, are they not to be held responsible for their part in the mortgage fall-out and especially the fact that they lobbied with the help of Democrats, to get more money from the bail-out? This coming froom the group that can be directly held responsible for the mortgage wahala and the credit crunch now experienced globally.

Open your eyes like you did in Florida in 2000. Prior electoral shenanegans, can u point us to where a constituted authority has indicted Obama, if not please its just folk tales more like tales by moon light. This is getting less logical as we go on.

We are not to ignore the fradulent actions i stated that in my last post, but the point is that we shouldnt demonise the whole organisation because of the sins of a few.

Please see the link below, the supreme court has ruled there need not be proof of voter eligibility, because it is not material.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/jonathanmartin/1008/Supremes_say_Ohio_SecState_doesnt_have_to_prove_voter_eligibility.html


Let me enlighten you a bit. In voters registration carried out by minority groups not only ACORN, for the authorities to accept the forms there is a process. They are placed into 3 categories. Good, suspicious and bad or something like that (this was also on larry King Live). After the forms are collected another unit calls the person registered to verify the forms if they are verified by speaking to the person they are marked as good (again there is an issue here but the point is that reasonable effort must be made to verify), that which can not be verified the "micky mouse" types are placed as suspicious then the incomplete forms are marked bad.The suspicious forms are then handed over to the authorities to investigate. The issue is that is it the suspicious forms that the republicans are crying fouls, its just politics at play cos every one including the FBI knows they are suspicious.

The issue which you choose to ignore is the problems faced by the minorities to get registered and move up in the economic ladder and the important role organisations like ACORN play in trying to empower this class. Please stop living in a bubble, a lot of us are well off as well but understand history and the challenges faced in the western world. I have done extensive research and written papers on the economic & sociological gaps facing minorities not only in America but in the UK, the problems are very real and similar, its systemic changing but still a systemic bias exist.

The republicans are shocked for ones that the democrats are not just shouting but playing by the rules, u know the system and are now trying to cry foul. Thankfully the judges looked at the facts, the facts are that the so called irregularity in voters registration is not material enought to warrant the panic they want to cause.

To funding, if Obama has given them $200k, bless his soul, again you dont understand the problem of fund raising, i wont go into that.

Tayo-D:

@away4real,
Take it easy my guy. At this point, I have chosen to see and take part in the humorous aspect of this election. My statement was meant to be light-hearted and not an argument for or against the topic. Get it?

Ok just took a dose of chill pill. Just thought it good we set the records straight.

Tayo-D:

@topic,

After Luis Farrakhan declared Obama the Messiah, it shouldn't be surprising that faithful subjects are now falling over themselves to pay him homage!

Hmm how do we start.

OK what is the relationship between Louis Farrakhan and 65 Nobel price winners. Faithful subjects in what sense? I am weary about the source but anyway see the statements in bold below. These guys are Nobel price winners probably more intellectuals they are more likely to lean towards Obama than McCain. The probability of the ignorant arguement of pro choice vs pro life, religion etc catching up on their logic is low. They are passionate on issues like climate change, more likely to oppose someone that believes it is cyclical in nature more than man made.

Can we keep at the issues, tayo when you argued on issues i enjoyed debating with you, now its becoming something else.

How can you attempt to draw a comparison between Nobel price winners and Louise Farakhan, trying to paint some extreme scientific/religious cult image.

DeepZone:

Thursday, October 16, 2008
65 US Nobel laureates endorse Obama

By Agency Reporter


In a copy made available to NAN in New York, the scientists wrote, "This year's presidential election is among the most significant in our nation's history.

"The country urgently needs a visionary leader who can ensure the future of our traditional strengths in science and technology and who can harness those strengths to address many of our greatest problems - energy, disease, climate change, security, and economic competitiveness."

"We are convinced that Senator Barack Obama is such a leader, and we urge you to join us in supporting him,'' they said.

In reaction, Obama's campaign office said in a statement that the letter "marks the largest number of Nobel Laureates - `the nation's greatest minds'-- ever to endorse a political candidate.''

http://odili.net/news/source/2008/oct/16/406.html

Please let every one read about ACORN and make up their minds. 

A few ACORN staff that were paid to register voters decided to make more money and duplicate voters registration. Now something wrong was done should be investigated and anyone found guilty should face the consequences. Then the right pounce on that and label ACORN all sorts, this is just intellectual laziness.

The notion that Republicans are moral and better christains as Obama says is quite hard to swallow. Being a Republican has nothing to do with Morality or being a good person. This strategy of painting Obama unpatirotic and a bad guy by assoication should annoy any intelligent person. I have all sorts of friends, from University i knew cultist, today i know a few that are engaged in fraud, i have a lot of muslim friends but yet am very born again spirit filled. My bible and its principles guide me.

@ Tayo how on earth can you attempt to predict the character of Obama based on what Sarah Palin, Bill O reailly & Co have said. The guy served on a board with Bill Ayers so what, Bill Ayers is his friend, bombed when he was 8 and in 2001 said he didnt do enough, was it Obama that said that. I expected a bit more from you Tayo, this arguement doesnt pass the "common sense" test.

1988-1998: Focus on housing

ACORN member demonstrating against predatory lendingWhile some of ACORN’s most notable efforts were in the area of housing, it has counted health, public safety, education, representation, work and workers’ rights and communications concerns among its victories.

The 1990 ACORN convention in Chicago focused on the fast-breaking housing campaign. It featured a squatting demonstration at an RTC house. Later, ACORN members demanded cooperation from banks about providing loan data on low- and moderate-income communities and compliance with the 1977 Community Reinvestment Act (CRA).

ACORN fought weakening of the CRA in 1991, staging a two-day takeover of the House Banking Committee hearing room. It also established ACORN Housing Corporation to service people moving into homes under the housing campaign, rehabilitated hundreds of houses addressed by CRA.

The ACORN convention in New York in 1992, called the "ACORN-Bank Summit", was organized to make deals with giant banks. When Citibank, the nation’s largest bank, did not participate conventioneers protested at its downtown Manhattan headquarters, and won a meeting to negotiate for similar programs.

ACORN supported and lobbied for the "Motor Voter" Act. After its passage, ACORN members attended President Clinton’s signing ceremony. ACORN then pursued new registration laws in Arkansas and Massachusetts and filed suit in Illinois, Louisiana, Michigan, Missouri, New Jersey, and Pennsylvania as a result of the act.

In 1993, ACORN also began a national campaign to fight insurance redlining, a practice that put the gains made in other housing campaigns at risk. The campaign targeted Allstate, hitting sales offices in fourteen cities and a stockholders meeting. Allstate agreed to negotiate and signed an agreement in 1994 for a $10 million partnership with ACORN and NationsBank for below-market mortgages to low-income homebuyers. Travelers Insurance agreed to a Neighborhood and Home Safety Program, linking access to insurance and lower rates to public safety programs.

In 1994, the group improperly used a $1.1 million grant from AmeriCorps for political purposes and the grant was terminated.[24][25]. Acorn says it does not now accept direct government funding and is not tax exempt.[26]


1998-2004: Building capacity
ACORN's subsequent activities have included its "Living Wage" programs, voter registration, and grassroots political organization.

In 1998 ACORN helped form the Working Families Party in New York which counts increasing the minimum wage as its centerpiece issue.

Dale Rathke, the brother of ACORN's founder Wade Rathke, was found to have embezzled $948,607.50 from the group and affiliated charitable organizations in 1999 and 2000. ACORN executives did not inform the board or law enforcement, but signed an enforceable restitution agreement with the Rathke family to repay the amount of the embezzlement. Wade Rathke stated to the New York Times that "the decision to keep the matter secret was not made to protect his brother but because word of the embezzlement would have put a “weapon” into the hands of [, ] conservatives who object to [ACORN]'s often strident advocacy on behalf of low- and moderate-income families and workers." A whistleblower revealed the fraud in 2008, leading to the departure of both Dale and Wade Rathke.[27]

A March 27, 2003 decision of the National Labor Relations Board found that ACORN attempted to thwart union organizing efforts within its own organization by laying off two workers who were attempting to organize.[28] The two workers, both field organizers with ACORN, began discussions with the Service Employees International Union and later sought to organize under Industrial Workers of the World in response to their $16,000 annual salary for a 54-hour work week.[citation needed] The NLRB ordered the two employees be reinstated in their former jobs and ACORN cease from interrogating employees about organizing activity.[28]. ACORN has since strengthened its ties with the Service Employees International Union, which donates over two million dollars to ACORN each year,[29] often working collaboratively on issues (including health insurance costs and the minimum wage) and sharing office space.

In 2004, Florida ACORN helped to raise Florida's minimum wage by $1.00 an hour by lobbying for a minimum wage amendment to be placed on the ballot. Over 1 million Florida employees were affected by the raise, which is adjusted annually for inflation.

2004 saw ACORN become an international organization, opening offices in Canada, Peru, and beginning work in Dominican Republic. Since then offices have opened in Mexico and Argentina.


2004-present: Voter registration drives
ACORN Votes, ACORN's national political action committee, endorsed the candidacy of Barack Obama during the 2008 Democratic Presidential Primary.[30]

Between 2004 and 2008, ACORN has focused its efforts on voter registration drives. In some locations ACORN employees have submitted false voter registration forms and the group's registration efforts have been investigated in a number of cities.

Investigations that have not resulted in charges or are still pending have been conducted in St. Louis, Missouri in 2006;[31][32] Lake County, Indiana[33] and Cuyahoga County, Ohio[34][35] in 2008; in Michigan in 2008;[36] in Nevada in 2008;[37][38] in Missouri in 2008.[39] Investigations resulting in charges or convictions of ACORN voter-registration employees occurred in 2004 in Ohio;[40][41] in 2005 in Colorado;[42] in 2006 in Kansas City, Missouri;[43] in 2007 in Washington state.[44] In the Washington case, ACORN agreed to pay King County $25 000 for its investigative costs and acknowledged that the national organization could be subject to criminal prosecution if fraud occurs again. According to King County Prosecuting Attorney Dan Satterberg, the misconduct was done "as an easy way to get paid [by ACORN], not as an attempt to influence the outcome of elections."[45][46]

During investigations, ACORN has publicly supported the investigations of employees submitting fraudulent voter registration information, has fired them if evidence supports the charges, and has stated its concern with false information on registration forms.[47][48] Officials have stated that ACORN has been cooperative in these investigations.[36]


ACORN in political discourse
This article or section may be slanted towards recent events.
Please try to keep recent events in historical perspective. (October 2008) 

Some Democrats have championed ACORN's work in organizing and supporting the causes of people with low and moderate incomes.[49] ACORN's political committees have sometimes endorsed Democratic candidates.[50] ACORN has participated in every Democratic Convention since 1980 [51] with members elected as delegates.[52] ACORN has lobbied delegates at Republican conventions[53] and has been criticized by Republicans for its support of Democratic candidates and alleged bias in its voter registration efforts.[4]

House of Representatives Republican leader John Boehner called for ACORN to be barred from receiving federal monies, and for a ban on ACORN contracting with candidates for federal office. He said, "ACORN spent decades promoting the housing policies that brought America's economy to the brink, and similarly over the years has committed fraud on our system of elections"[54]

In contrast, John Atlas writes in a Huffington Post editorial that ACORN has "accumulated many enemies" and has been "subjected to vicious attacks from business lobbyists, conservative politicians, and right-wing media." This same source alleges that the George W. Bush administration has sought to harass ACORN with accusation of voter fraud.[55] In a report released October 2008 the US Department of Justice Inspector General found that former US. Attorney David Iglesias was wrongfully fired by Attorney General Alberto Gonzales after Iglesias declined to indict over alleged voter fraud at an ACORN affiliate in New Mexico, citing insufficient evidence.[56]

Some Republicans, most notably Ken Blackwell, have attempted to link Barack Obama to allegations of voter fraud by ACORN.[57] The Obama campaign has strongly denied these accusations via their website and pointed to Blackwell's involvement in the irregularities reported in Ohio during the 2004 presidential election.[58].

During the debate on the bailout bill (the Emergency Economic Stabilization Act of 2008), some conservative commentators claimed that a draft provision (omitted in the adopted bill) to give money to funds run by the US Department of the Treasury could potentially lead to money flowing to groups like ACORN.[59][4] When asked how much money ACORN or other community groups would get, Steven Adamske, spokesman for Rep. Barney Frank (D-Mass.), chairman of the Financial Services Committee said, "None. Absolutely none. All funds would go to state and local governments."[5]

In October 2008, the John McCain campaign released a web-based ad suggesting ACORN was partly responsible for the 2008 economic crisis. ACORN pushed back on this accusation via its website, calling the spot "a smear ad".[60] On October 13, ACORN released a picture of Senator McCain attending an ACORN immigration forum to Politico. [61][color=#990000][/color]

Katrina relief
ACORN members across the country, particularly in the Gulf region, have organized fundraising and organizing drives to ensure that victims of Hurricane Katrina will receive assistance and will be able to return to affected areas. ACORN's Home Cleanout Demonstration Program has gutted and rebuilt over 1,850 homes with the help of volunteers. The ACORN Katrina Survivors Association formed in the aftermath of the storm is the first nationwide organization for Katrina survivors and has been working for equitable treatment for victims. Displaced citizens were bussed into the city for the New Orleans primary and general elections. ACORN Housing Services have helped more than 2,000 homeowners affected by the storm and is an official planner working with the city on reconstruction.[13][unreliable source?]


Education
ACORN pushes education reform usually in the form of organizing neighborhood groups and "community" or "ACORN schools". In Chicago, ACORN has advocated for a certified teacher to be in every classroom. In California ACORN has documented the need for textbooks and school repairs. ACORN works with teachers unions to get money for school construction and more funding for schools.[14] ACORN also supports school reform and the "creation of alternative public schools" such as charter schools.[14][15] ACORN opposed the privatization of some NYC schools, favoring its own Charter School plan.[16] The ACORN model for schools emphasizes small classes, parent involvement, qualified teachers and "community oriented curricula".[17]


Gun control
In 2006, ACORN intervened on behalf of Jersey City, New Jersey in a lawsuit brought against the city, which challenged a local ordinance that limited handgun purchasers to one gun a month.[18] The Hudson County Superior Court struck down the ordinance on the grounds that it violated the New Jersey Constitution's Equal Protection clause, and a state statute prohibiting towns and municipalities from enacting firearms legislation.[19]

On September 29, 2008, the New Jersey Appellate Court denied ACORN's appeal of the Hudson County Superior Court's decision striking down Jersey City's ordinance.[20]

History

1970-1975: Founding
ACORN was founded by Wade Rathke when he was sent to Little Rock, Arkansas by the National Welfare Rights Organization (NWRO) in 1970 as an organizer.[21] Gary Delgado and George A. Wiley were also instrumental to its founding. ACORN's first campaign was aimed at helping welfare recipients attain their basic needs, such as clothing and furniture. This drive, inspired by a clause in the Arkansas welfare laws, began the effort to create and sustain a movement that would grow to become the Arkansas Community Organizations for Reform Now, the beginnings of ACORN.[22]

ACORN's goal was to unite welfare recipients with needy working people around issues of free school lunches, unemployment issues, Vietnam veterans' rights, and emergency room care. The broad range of issues did not stop there as the organization grew throughout Arkansas. ACORN organized farmers to take on environmental issues concerning sulfur emissions.


1975-1980: Growth beyond Arkansas
In 1975, ACORN created branches in Texas and South Dakota. On December 13, 1975, sixty leaders from the three ACORN states elected the first associate Executive Board and the first ACORN president, Steve McDonald, to deal with matters beyond the scope of the individual city and state boards. Each year thereafter saw three or more states join ACORN, building to a total of twenty states by 1980. This expansion led to multi-state campaigns beginning with a mass meeting of 1,000 members in Memphis in 1978. At the end of the conference, ACORN convention delegates marched on the Democratic Party conference with the outline of a nine-point "People’s Platform" which would go on to become the foundation of ACORN's platform when it was ratified in 1979.

ACORN was active in the 1980 Election with the "People's Platform" serving as its standard.[23] It led demonstrations aimed at both major party candidates; demanded to meet with President Jimmy Carter; marched on the president's campaign finance committee chair's home; and presented its platform to the Republican Party platform committee.


1980-1988: Reagan era
By 1980, ACORN’S staff was stretched thin by the demands of meeting its expansion goals. Much of its resources and energy had been dedicated to the presidential primaries and national party conventions. ACORN launched squatting campaigns in an attempt to obtain affordable housing, and encouraged squatters to refit the premises for comfortable living.

In June 1982 ACORN sponsored "Reagan Ranches" in over 35 cities believing the president's focus to be on military as opposed to social spending. These tent cities were erected for two days and were met with resistance from the National Park Service, which tried repeatedly to evict the tenters. The protesters remained and then marched on the White House and testified before a Congressional committee about what they described as the housing crisis in America. The last Reagan Ranch was held at the Republican Convention in Dallas in 1984.

In addition to protesting, ACORN also developed and strengthened its political action committees and encouraged its members to run for office. For the 1984 Election ACORN wanted to endorse a candidate, setting a 75% support in polls among members as its requirement. No candidate reached that level, though there was strong support for Jesse Jackson. ACORN also established a legislative office that year in Washington, DC. During this period ACORN also focused on local election reform in a number of cities, including Pittsburgh, Columbia, South Carolina, and Sioux Falls, South Dakota, encouraging the change of at-large legislative bodies to district representation.

ACORN grew to twenty-seven states, adding chapters in New York City, Washington, DC, and Chicago, Illinois by the end of Reagan's first term.[22]

During the 1988 Election ACORN held its National Convention in the same city as the Democratic Convention — Atlanta, Georgia. During the preceding four years ACORN had strengthened its ties with Jesse Jackson and accounted for thirty Jackson delegates. It also sponsored a march at the convention.

ACORN's membership grew to 70,000 plus in twenty-eight states during this time. It increased its legislative lobbying efforts in Washington and strengthened its Political Action Committees (PACs). It also developed what it called the Affiliated Media Foundation Movement (AM/FM). Starting with station KNON in Dallas, AM/FM moved on to establish radio stations, UHF television and cable television programming. It also sought and received appointments to the Resolution Trust Corporation (RTC) which was formed to dissolve the assets of failed Savings and Loans resulting from the Savings and Loan crisis.

ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, is a community-based organization that advocates for low- and moderate-income families by working on neighborhood safety, health care and other social issues. ACORN has over 350,000 members and more than 850 neighborhood chapters in over 100 cities across the United States, as well as in Argentina, Canada, Mexico, and Peru. ACORN was founded in 1970 by Wade Rathke and Gary Delgado.[1] Maude Hurd has been National President of ACORN since 1990.

ACORN's priorities have included: better housing and wages for the poor, more community development investment from banks and governments, and better public schools.[2] ACORN pursues these goals through demonstration, negotiation, legislation, and voter participation.[3]

ACORN is made up of several legally distinct parts including local non-profits, a national lobbying organization and the ACORN Housing Corporation.[4] ACORN says it is non-partisan though it is often aligned with the Democratic Party on policy.[4] This political alignment and some of the causes it advocates have made ACORN the subject of partisan conflict.[5][4] Some of ACORN's voter registration programs have been investigated for alleged fraud.[6]

Issues and actions

Predatory lending and affordable housing
ACORN targets companies that engage in lending practices that it considers predatory. It supports strict state laws against predatory practices, organizes against foreclosure rescue scams, and attempts to steer borrowers toward loan counseling.[7] Following a three-year campaign, Household International (now owned by HSBC Holdings and renamed HSBC Finance Corporation), one of the largest subprime lenders in the country, and ACORN announced on November 25, 2003 a proposed settlement of a 2002 national class-action lawsuit brought by ACORN. The settlement created a $72 million Foreclosure Avoidance Program to provide relief to Household borrowers who are at risk of losing their homes.[7] The settlement came on the heels of an earlier $484 million settlement between Household, Attorneys General, and bank regulators from all 50 US states.[8]

ACORN and its affiliates advocate for affordable housing by urging the development, rehabilitation and establishment of housing trust funds at the local, state, and federal levels.[9] The group also pushes for enforcement of affordable-housing requirements for developers and promotes programs to help homeowners repair their homes and organize tenant demands.[10]


Living wages
Living wage ordinances require private businesses that do business with the government to pay their workers a wage that enables them to afford basic necessities. ACORN has helped pass local living wage laws in fifteen cities including Chicago, Oakland, Denver, and New York City.[11] ACORN maintains a website that provides strategic and logistical assistance to organizations nationwide.

ACORN filed a lawsuit in California seeking to exempt itself from the state's minimum wage of $4.25 per hour in 1995. ACORN alleged in its complaint that minimum wage laws "were unconstitutional as applied to it, because they restricted its ability to engage in political advocacy by forcing it to hire fewer workers, and that its workers, if paid the minimum wage, would be less empathetic with its low- and moderate-income constituency and would therefore be less effective advocates." The court denied ACORN's petition; the denial was sustained on appeal.[12]

Tayo-D:

@texazzpete,
Perhaps you need to wonder why despite Clinton's attempt to bring attention to Bill Ayers, Americans are just beginning to learn about him about 3 weeks to the Presidential election. Until this past week, what did you know about ACORN? Why is all that information just coming out now? Have you ever wondered? Perhaps the reason why no one paid attention is because the Press chose not to delve into it. Or could it be because of fear of being labelled a racists just because you oppose the most viable aspiring black president of the USA?
Perhaps they'll rather take their risk with Obama than to see Republicans retain the White House. Perhaps they see in Obama, a candidate most aligned with their agenda. Do you know how many attacks Joe the Plumber has been through just today because he considers Obama's tax plan un-american? Be ready for an all out counterattack by the Pres if you intend to touch their anointed one.
So Obama was 8 after 911 when Ayers wrote in the NY Times that he wished he had done more?
Oh. From just declaring that Ayers was just someone living in his neighborhood, we have since found out that Ayers actually held a "meet the candidate" fund raising event in his home for Obama. Now, is that just a guy who lives in my neighborhood?
Its not just about fraud. ACORN is deeply involved and responsible for the present mortgage crisis. http://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2008/09/acorn_obama_and_the_mortgage_m.html,

"Obama was part of a team of attorneys who represented the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) in a lawsuit against the state of Illinois in 1995 for failing to implement a federal law designed to make it easier for the poor and others to register as voters." (Mike Robinson, "Obama Got Start In Civil Rights Practice," The Associated Press, 2/20/07)

"Misrepresented" The Group's Work To The FEC. "US. Sen. Barack Obama's presidential campaign paid more than $800,000 to an offshoot of the liberal Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now for services the Democrat's campaign says it mistakenly misrepresented in federal reports. An Obama spokesman said Federal Election Commission reports would be amended to show Citizens Services Inc. -- a subsidiary of ACORN -- worked in 'get-out-the-vote' projects, instead of activities such as polling, advance work and staging major events as stated in FEC finance reports filed during the primary." (David M. Brown, "Obama To Amend Report On $800,000 In Spending," Pittsburgh Tribune Review, 8/22/08)
- [url=http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/rnc-obama--acorn-fact/story.aspx?guid=%7B29569FA1-136D-4B95-9D51-4EF9E87ED547%7D&dist=hppr]http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/rnc-obama--acorn-fact/story.aspx?guid=%7B29569FA1-136D-4B95-9D51-4EF9E87ED547%7D&dist=hppr [/url].
Excuse my inability to excuse all these facts. If my suspicion of Obama means a lower level of intelligence to you, the so be it. I am not blind to these facts. Obama has being lying and he continues to do so.

@ Tayo, this is becoming unacceptable, how can you attempt to do this. The argument is lame, please read about ACORN on the link below.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_Community_Organizations_for_Reform_Now

ACORN has been in existance since 1970 and has been involved in various projects. This arguement against Obama lacks merit, its obvious. The same Mccain crying foul now had praised ACORN in the past, he has been sighted in one of their gatherings.

@ deep zone again i ask you to substantiate your claims, this is not a beer parlour.

RichyBlacK:

You are the racist!

How come some one whose parents are black and white is termed black? Why not white? Answer is simple. One drop rule. Racist America cannot accept anybody as white if you have one drop of black in you.

Obama is as black as he is white! I'm supporting a biracial candidate! He's neither completely black nor completely white. But racists like you will never call him white because you have subscribed to the one drop rule.

I support Obama not because of his race but because of his intelligence. I don't agree with all his views, e.g. on health care Hillary is far better. McCain on the other hand is just a brawler, with low intelligence (bottom of his class) like Bush. We don't want people with calcified brains in the White House. We need people who are mentally agile, willing to talk to all and who still have some humility. McCain is an arrogant empty barrel who just likes pretty bimbos!

You share my sentiments exactly, another 4 years of low intelligence would do no one any good. John McCain couldnt articulate his own health policy, i don't agree with every thing Obama says but i agree with a lot, i have read his books and share a lot of common goround with him.

Its time to put to test a lot of the republican lies, all Liberals support Abortion, support homosexuals and want to overtune the marriage union. Thats just shallow arguments. The issue now is that theres a democratic candidate that has funds and take on the republicans negative for negative, they are not used to it. Can u recall how Kerry was ridiculed, it hasnt worked yet on Obama.

This race is not over guys, Remember New Hampshire, theres a lot of dynamics still at play. Am positive but its not over at all.

toshmann:

this is where i differ strongly with some fellow republican leaning nairaland users. this kind of hateful statements go nowhere. if anything it is this kind of statements that has helped obama climb up in the polls.

i believe both men are honorable. i believe both can do better than poor george did. but i just don't like democratic principles. period.

Toshman i totally agree with you, both men are honorable, the issue is that McCain has tried to cast doubts on Obama's patriotism and character and that is not true.

I also don't agree with every democratic ideology but i agree with more than i do with the Republican ideology. There is a lot of common ground and that is should be amplified.

DeepZone:

We are not talking about running mates but the party leaders. Has Obama travelled to colombia before?

And your point is?

Ok given Obama hasnt travelled to Columbia. Question before Condolessa Rice went to Lbya when last did any senior American diplomat visit Libya or other so called Rogues states, but does America have a foreign policy towards this nations. Yes or No??

DeepZone:

His hands were tied indeed. . Nobody tied his hands but he was short of lies and words to further blacklist the woman. Of course had he tried it, McMaverik will bring him back from slumber by telling him that Sarah Palin is actually more qualified than that Ayers deputy. i wish I had a chance to finish that sexist off last night. From Jeremiah wright to Ayers and other shady shady aspects of his life. Is he the only black man in America?. I may want a black president but not a shady one. Will the African Americans support him wholly when he is scarcely one of them?. Obama is a sexist racist who used sexism to bully Hilary out of the race and is trying to use that ploy again but thank God sarah palin has a thuggish side of her preety self. I still can't get it why women destroy other women that are trying to make a difference. Let us watch and pray.

And do you really want to argue on Sarah Palin, comparing Sarah palin to Ayers? Guy what are u thinking where are u from?

Your statements in bold refers, dont make statements you cant substantiate, please show us clearly which constituted authority has found Obama shady, the last count Sarah Palin was indicted and John McCain was found culpable and showed bad judgement in the Keating 5.

Sexist and Racist? I really dont know where to start, is this a market place or beer parlour, substantiate your arguemnts.

Sarah Palin has been indicted on ethical grounds that an xtremely serious issue, John McCain has been indicted that he showed bad judgement, show us who has indicted Obama or else please keep quiet.

@ Richy our dear friend Tayo left that debate, he just couldnt continue.

Did you hear McCain on the Columbia issue, how dare he say Obama hasnt travelled down south when his running mate just got a passport last year. Did you see his reponse when Obama talked about the repression of Labour rights there.

Joh McCain is a very shallow individual, he couldnt even explain his own health care plan and education, i have heard others explain that plan better.

Tayo-D:

@away4real,

The Declaration of Independence clearly stated that the government must be institued through the consent of the governed. That is a direct refernce to voting. Voting gives people the opportunity to express their consent or dissaproval of tjheir government. What more proof do you want?
The principle is clear in the Declaration of Independence. Whatever is God-endowed and common to all men through creation is the key. Poverty and riches are not God-endowed, neither is health-care. Do you get it?
The principle clearly shows it is not a Right. Healthcare is purely a responsibility. It is my responsibility to see to it that my family has adequate healthcare. As long as the govt does not put any stumbling block in my way to obtaining that healthcare, then all is well and good. If healthcare is a right, doe that mean the govt has the powers to force you to take a shower and live a healthy lifestyle? Those are your responsibilities.
I agree with this statement in its entirety. The question now is, what part of the principles or guidelines mandates healthcare as a Right? Is healthcare God-given?
Of course you know what my answer will be based on my understanding of the documents they produced. There is no point belabouring this issue any longer.

Tayo two things, this principle was so clear it took 200 years to achieve? Why was that??

Secondly this notion "Whatever is God-endowed and common to all men through creation is the key". So i guess we were all born sick, health care is not God endowed and not common to all men? What is this "right to life"?

The point you seem to clearly ignore is that you cannot literally lay hold to this so called clear principles you are forcing into the declaration and constitution. It was an interpretation and remains an interpretation of men who lay hold to power at a time it all depends on who is/was interpreting it.

So based on the above it is essential that the debate of health care cannot look only to the declaration and constitution alone, we should use this docs as guidelines but be wider in scope.

Richy has brought up that ludicrous judgement, Richy u are a correct guy. Some aspects of conservative ideology to me is so dangerous when people try to justify their actions through religion and christainity am disturbed, thats y its easily swallowed by the not so enlightened, and when u can question it objectively they say are an extreme liberal.

Tayo's quote
Richy raised a very important point earlier as well. The constitution and the declaration of independence are imperfect documents authored by imperfect people. What He didn't mention is that the same document is enforced and practicved by the same imperfect people. I only have one question for you. What part of these documents contradicts civil and voting rights? Infact, the document clearly sated that govt must only be instituted through the consent of the governed. That was clearly violated by the civil rights suppression. The question still remain - Is healthcare a human right? You have not proven this as yet.


I totally agree with you that the constitution allowed for civil and voting rights. I never disagreed on the fact, i was pointing to the intent, it didnt literally state it but it suggested it, but the imperfect men that interpret the constitution chose to ignore it.

Reverse, what part of the documents clearly contradicts health care being a right?

As well you have not shown where the constitution and declaration shows health care as a responsibility?

My point is that the interpretation of the consitution should be a fluid becos the documents is a fluid document moving with time but the principles and guidelines should be static. If the founding fathers were alive today based on the strength of the union what do you think they would want for the citizens in terms of healthcare. I think the declaration is clear on welfare and right to life, it depends on what interpretation we all choose to give it.

You stated you couldnt afford health care in Nigeria but didnt deem it fit as a right, u didnt answer my question in America now if u cant affod it will your views change.

You took a shot at Liberals and stated you are a republican for lack of an alternative, i really dont get that. Bush big govt and all, Legislature being part of the govt, i was suggesting a check on the executive and hence limit of powers. I wont divert too much, lets continue from ur response.

toshmann:

anybody who thinks religion is separated from US politics is delusional. i go to church and i hear pastors talking about the politics of the day and candidates, i turn to religious tv and i hear of one candidate or the other.

@darfur

perhaps we are following different religions, my God wont allow abortion. do you know what abortion is? it is murder. termination of life. do you know what life is? human life is sacrosanct. God gives life and you have no right whatsoever before God to terminate even ur own life, how much more that of unborn babies. it is a delight to see pallin carrying her special baby around. some women would do away with such before they are born. she kept hers.

read ur bible, where does God tolerate homosexuality. this is the very reason why sodom and gomorah were eliminated forever. and u are here talking of their human rights. what nonsense. they want to re-define marriage. i think america the democrats have gone too far. say what u like about bush, God may have been with him. u never know. otherwise tell me how such a dumbo could win an election in a bad economic yr against an intellectual like kerry?

i am a republican and i have no regrets

So who said God tolerates homosexuality. Which democrats?? at the last count Conservative holy Palin and Biden agreed on the issue.

Your post smacks of extreme bigotry, please spare us the Sodom gist and God being with Bush. Am shocked at such logic extreme intellectual laziness, so God is with Yar Adua and even Robert Mugabe. Are you sure u are born again at all. This perception that some-how republicans are better christains and pursue the tenents of the bible is fallacy. Those that allow that influence them tells alot of how they rationalise issues. If you are republican talk of your ideology and philisophy,  of extremely selective low taxes, high defense spending, invincible hand market mechanism and please leave God out of it.

And to the issue of abortion, God forbid someone you know is raped and gets pregnant she should carry the child, its Palin's perogative to have the child i bless God for her, she should not use the child for political purposes which is what she has done, may God have mercy on her soul.

If you want to debate do that or else please spare us the self rightoeus act. Holy Judge

Tayo-D:

@RichyBlack,
The declaration of independence clearly says that govt must be through the consent of the people. That is a reference to voting. The will of the people must be expressed by how the govt is constituted. It is God-endowed because it directly relates to freedom. Freedom of association as well as freedom of choice. These are God-given because it promotes a man's will and not suppress it.
No doubt it is one way to promote B. However, when I am forced to pay for a social welfare, then it violates my human right. What I disagree with is this. You may promote B by funding it, but give me the choice to contribute to that funding or not. If Obama says today that he will provide Universal Healthcare on one premise; that only those who are willing should contribute to it, I will support him fully. Going that route secures my right while promoting a social welfare. Did you hear during the debate when he said he will force parents to buy insurance for their kids? Do you realise he will be fining those who don't? Do you think the govt knows what is best for your childrn more than you do?

Am pained i couldnt follow this debate, i am unable to take it point by point but will start from your own statement in bold. That statement alone has weakened your arguement, Richy raised a very important issue of semantics and interpretations, the word inferred you used there took more than 200 years for that right to be realised and not until the civil disobedience and civil rights had fought enough battles, must we wait another 200 years before we can see that citizens right to basic health care should be a right. Fillibuster after fillibuster the voting act was thrown away.

Please Tayo i really don't know where to start if in 2008 we are debating seriously whether health care is a right or not, its like voting rights to blacks in 1776. The declaration and constitution are fluid documents in their interpretations its the intent and principles that are static.

We can go on and on, interpretations here, semantics there, the simple test is this. Tayo if you couldnt afford a good health insurance what views would you hold? Honestly

Nobody wants a govt that the powers aint checked the legislature already ensures that, so this notion of big govt and all is just politics, Bush govt is massive, the difference between Obama and McCain spending plans is so minimal i don't get it, i can't imagine a president that would be worse that Bush in taking unilateral decisions.

Its just like the man that could vote in 1900 he just couldnt be bothered if others couldnt vote.

@ TayoD i understand your arguement and the technicality therein.

Please ignore the insults its all in the passion of debate. When the founding fathers of the US constitution talked about the "right to life" my question to you what were the intents of that right?

You quoted the Universal declaration of Human rights i recall that there are about 3 conventions that breaks down each article properly. Please go back and read those conventions am sure the intent of health care being a right is clear. Obama was a constitutional law lecturer do u honestly think McCain has the intellectual ability to distinguish the issue(s) better. Abinitio on this based on their careers i will listen to Obama's argument more closely put ideology or party affiliation aside can McCain intellectually argue this right vs responsibilty with Obama

Deviating a bit from the issue of right or responsibilty, lets look at health care in itself as a service and a service provided by the priate sector. My arguement to you is this, the private sector is profit driven and sole aim centers on higher returns to share holders, should preservation of human life be tied to profits, we are not talking about car or home insurance here we are talking about preservation of human life.

I read a phd thesis and one the arguments was that the private sector does not have in its genes any form of social responsibilty and rightly so, they have to be forced and coerced by the government. I will ask the guy if i can put it online, your argument on 100% private health care will seize.

In my opinion there should be a solid government alternative and then let people choose. The british NHS still remains a model, they celeberated 60 years recently d same arguement u are making were exactly d same arguements made 60 years ago and today the NHS is a success, has its problems but is a success. The notion was simple health care on a need to basis and not based on affordability Did anyone here watch that BBC documentary?

I don't think Obama is totally against the private health care, but let the govt provide alternative plans.

And since the free market handles every thing well lets just hand over everything defense, roads, street lights, councils, cities everything, we really don't need a govt or maybe an extremely lean govt that really can't do anything. This classical economics Adam Smith notion of the invincible hand has been debunked in academic cycles as far back as Keynes the notion that the market will regulate it self has been shown to be nonsense, i really can't understand how people still hold on to that ideology.

I have raised a lot of issues but the summary is that the motivations of private enterprise conflicts with that of the health sector, there are no emotions in private enterprise its all profits and again rightly so, but in health issues you need such flexibilty and human emotions and pity, you are dealing with human life, thats why government should be involved in that sector.

donnie:

I still dey. . . no shaking n with d same ID . . .though maybe not as vocal as before.

I actually do remember Tayo D, Pilgrim and hey u . . . davidylan. I even remember when Seun was a Christian.

I bellieve we kind of started a fire and others have caught the flame.

I cannot be on every thread esp where i see i already hv in some way, full representation. . . ie people who share my views 100%. Besides many just want to feature on nairaland even if they have to duplicate an old thread.

By d way, why did your topic go . . . even donnie?

I actually miss Tayo D, Papa, layi and even HND my long time arch rival who supposedly has been replaced by d backslider

Well, 1 love n thnx for rememberin me. Bless ya'll

Brotherly, i didnt mean it in a sarcastic tone, now reading it, i kind of get what you mean. Am sorry no insults intended.

I will amend the topic accordingly.

Pilgrim welcome back, if any one knows Shahan pls get back.

Brother, He who began the good work he will complete it.

Father we thank you for Bisi is healed, the same spirit that raised up christ from the dead dwells in her, her mortal body is quickened in Jesus name.

debolay ask Bisi to meditate on Gods promise to her on her health as she recovers. You can ask her to start with Romans 8 and see God do a new thing in her life. She will share the testimony of the power of Gods word.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwelleth in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead shall give life also to your mortal bodies through his Spirit that dwelleth in you.


Let me share a testimony with you on the power of Gods word.  I called a friend of mine on friday i had not heard from him for about a yr and a half.

He had an accident a while back and his leg injury was very serious, i was calling to find out how he was because the last time i saw him, the leg was really in a bad shape. He said he was scheduled for series of suggeries, that the leg improved afta the 1st of d suggeries but it was slow and was taking time, u know a little improvement today, a relapse tomorrow that kind of improvement. He said afta while and several suggeries his brother told him to begin to read the scripture and speak Gods word to the leg. My friend was not all that serious with God so it doesnt take a pastor or serious believer to do this, its just the faith of a little child, he said he kept speaking the scripture day in day out at every opportunity he speaks to his leg, quotes different promises.

He now said its really been long that we spoke because he can't remember the injury all he can remember was he didnt need the walking stick and support even when the doctors and physio were telling him that the bone needs time to heal. He said his bones were strong and he knew it so he dropped the stick and decided to go to the physio without it, they told him well his bones seem to have recovered beyond their expectation, they couldnt explain it, but he knew that it was Gods word.

The guy started preaching to me, that Gods word works (hello like i didnt know) but it was good to hear it again, because i know faith comes by hearing. So am telling you now again Gods word works. It is living, it doesnt return to him without accomplishing that which it has been sent to accomplish.

Please allow me to digress here. Its all so pathethic some arguements i hear from christains. Lets go religious now 1 Corinthains 6:18 advise we flee fornication, a sin against ones own body. Abstinence is the only solution in the bible, in short all we are to flee all appearances of evil.

My question ? Is this done by the canal man or the man filled by the spirit, how can you live a life free from fornication if you dont have Gods spirit abiding on your inside, then some christains would attempt this on a carnal man as if that was Gods plan and when it fails you dare try to infer that those who oppose those views are against God or are saying that God has failed.

You guys better start thinking properly.

Kobojunkie:

Oh,  I respond to ridiculous posts such as the one you posted about me earlier. I am sorry that gets you but I hate it when people lie to get by or try to wiggle their way into being right. Everyone knows the reason why republicans bring forward morals is to bring religious beliefs in. And when we speak of religion, we speak of God. So I don't know how you can set God to the side when the belief itself is based on the Bible which is about God. So if teaching abstinence, a practice taken from the bible is wrong, then it goes to say that God is wrong. ROFLMAO!!! I am sorry, there are no two ways to it. You can not tell me it is all about republicans when republicans who push that belief state clearly that it is taken from the Bible, which in turn, is the book of God. 


Not all persons that preach abstinence are republicans. So to say abstinence does not work is to say that whoever came up with the idea is wrong.

Its almost an impossible task afterall water came out of a rock so let me try.

Am i talking about all persons that preach abstinance or Sarah Palin. The statement in bold is a testament of your logic. You cannot refute a single arguement logically, this is my third olive branch you stated you were tired and i advised it wasnt by force, its still not by force at the last count you are not JeSoul i ask again are you?

Kobojunkie:

Oh, I respond to ridiculous posts such as the one you posted about me earlier. I am sorry that gets you but I hate it when people lie to get by or try to wiggle their way into being right. Everyone knows the reason why republicans bring forward morals is to bring religious beliefs in. And when we speak of religion, we speak of God. So I don't know how you can set God to the side when the belief itself is based on the Bible which is about God. So if teaching abstinence, a practice taken from the bible is wrong, then it goes to say that God is wrong. ROFLMAO!!! I am sorry, there are no two ways to it. You can not tell me it is all about republicans when republicans who push that belief state clearly that it is taken from the Bible, which in turn, is the book of God.


Not all persons that preach abstinence are republicans. So to say abstinence does not work is to say that whoever came up with the idea is wrong.

Please highlight to me the ridiclous post i did about you.

While you are on that try and google "fallacy of composition and hasty generalisation", you need desperately some lessons on logic.

This forum cannot be a substitute for proper education you know.

@ kobo, maybe you can show me where i stated fornication is not a sin or wrong.

You need to loosen up, i thought you didnt have time to post, you can run along its not by force.

You seem to be using the dictionary a lot, are you learning these words.

This is exactly my arguement with those who lean towards the right, it all about religion in a secular society.

Let me pick few of your points. Am comfortable debating so i will strain a bit away just to drive my points home, hope thats alright?

JeSoul:

Oh by no means do I support aborting pregnancies due to rape. I'm simply saying I would perfectly understand why a woman would want to do it. I have less 'understanding' though for those who got pregnant due to lack of common sense or self-control.

Then Palins daughter falls into that category. I agree that there should be limits and the challenge is where to draw the line, but extreme pro life views am totally against because its irrational and bigotry, those that preach it most are often the ones that face situations like this more, am not saying others don't, but it always happens to the so called "good " why?. I remeber those days in school bad girls hardly get pregnant except intentionally, its always the good girls that get all the drama. The first time i ever heard of the so called "safe period" was from a bad girl, a lot of my bretheren (sisters) didnt know because they felt they don't need to. Needless to say a lot fell along the way, thanks to Gods grace to bring them back, knowledge in the ways of the world would have saved a lot.

JeSoul:

By the way, most of her 'extremist' views happen to christian views so I have no beef with that! I support the death penalty, right to bear arms, pro-life etc. Which of her views exactly ain't you 'feelin'?
  I don't really get this statement.
How does her daughters choice to have sex =  a failure in Palin's policy?
Like Kobo stated earlier then you can also say that God's laws for abstinence for christians is also a failure! because some christians obviously don't obey this law.

Besides this is such a small and largely insignificant issue; abstinence vs. contraception vs sex education, it is probably ranked problem #245 in the list of America's most pressing problems, this thing has been blown, stretched n re-blown way out of proportion. It is not a big deal at all.

I stand for the death penalty also on some crimes, right to bear arms no, it has no place in a civilised society, pro life too extrem for me i believe in choices. And please lets get it clear here these views are not christain they are republican. We no longer take an eye for an eye.

I totally agree its such a small issue there are bigger issues but this is what started our discuss. My reference to failed policy was to her abstenance only sex education policy, policy in singular terms, this constitutes part of her education policy. It just doesnt work, again all the sex education in the world wont eradicate the problem but i believe in all cards on the table them we trust God to do his thing. So how is it a failed policy, Daughters choice to have sex is a decison by daughter, daughter is educated in school and brought up practising abstenance only, Abstenance only is a failed policy it doesnt work. cos daughter obviously had sex and perhaps remotely knew about condoms, or thought it was unscriptural to use it though she was having sex. If not even if she had sex she wouldnt have been pregnant.

Bringing God here like Kobo did is a bit extreme only if we agree to limit it to us as christains, that law is not a failure because God gives room for us when we fail, having a high priest that understands what i feel i can approcah the throne for forgiveness. I remain a christain because i know and have tasted forgiveness.

My first question is what room is there when people fail in this pro life agenda, like Bristol must she have the child and marry the father?  Are there other choices or options for her?

JeSoul:

  To be honest each party touts themselves as things they're not. Democrats say they're "for the people" Republicans say they're "good people" it's all lies and like you say 'propaganda'. There are good, bad and terrible politicians on both sides.
  Perhaps its just my perception but I'll rather trust my safety to a McCain than an Obama. It seems to me dems have a kool-aid view foreign relations, to me they seem soft and to eager to kiss and hug everyone in the world. Islamic fascists will hate the west no matter how much "dialogue" or "talking" is done - it's just a fact of life, they want to kill us and will not stop trying. And since you're a christian, you understand that Hagars seed will be forever at war with his brothers. Muslims hate Jews, christians and everything we stand for - this will never change.

On the first part, I totally agree with you its all politics, at the end of the day both sides say all the things they say to win converts, statement in bold very important, i have always lived by those principle that there are good and bad people (sex, religion, tribe) and am not always quick to stereotype. I have met brethren that i wonder how God could forgive them because their wickedness radiates and "dey smell" as pidgin english will put it.

The other issue is where i fundamentally differ with you, McCain will not be a better guard. That perception is part of a larger propangand that has being built over time and is the challenge the Dems have now, to change. Why? tell me a democratic president that didnt defend America when it mattered? Tough talk and quick war decisions to me is not strength. Empathy is not weakness and shouldnt be mistaken for that.

There will always be enemies and interest to protect, i agree, if democrats believe in more diplomacy, its because not much is gained from war.

The republicans are always quick to go to war as a first premise not as a last after all diplomatic channels have broken down, that is what has been percieved as strenghth and i actually perceive that as a weakness.

I do not believe McCain will be willing to see through long and at times frustrating diplomacy. The Unilateral ideology is dangerous and would not work in the 21st century.

The enemity within the seeds will always be there as scripture teaches us, but thats scripture, can we leave it there. Muslims hate Christains, Jews and everything they stand for, why does America buy Oil from the Saudis where the Mecca is, the home of this so called Islam. This line of arguement is too extreme for a secular society.

Again i state it would be good if we allow scripture guide us in our personal lives but leave it there, if not what makes us different from the so call islamic extremist that cannot differentiate issues.

Thanks sis, i have had good fun debating with you, we would follow up another time.

Then on the second.

Agreed no matter what the extreme right says i for one will always be against it, but that doesnt mean i wont consider the veracity or falsity of the claims. Both camps will always talk and as u said its all about the morals and perception. You stated a key point politicians stand on issues informs u of his morals. The right has ruled so much because of this perception of morals they propagate and every reasonable man likes a man with morals.

Who says a Liberal or the democrats has no morals because of his views on choice or can't protect America because of their positions so that media war will go on, the left has long been out done, they will need to do more.

Please on the Roe vs Wade sweetie don't be decieved at all. Theres more at stake in this election than a lot know, in the next 4 years there might be room to appint 4 Judges and adding that to what is on ground now, a lot can change. I don't see that Judgement changing but the issue is that the legal climate can change and who knows with the kind of ideology vibrating of the McCain camp its scary.

Then on Palin agreed this singular action of her daughter should not be used to access her qualification as VP, as kids are more likely to go against their parents guidance, parents can only trust that bring up your child in the way he should go when he is old he wont depart, thats only what parents can hold on to.

The issue is on the positions she takes, she definately has some major accomplishements for her to have come this far and credit to her. But as VP now what Martin Luther  King called the "urgency of now", another extremist bush kind of views wont cut,  another Cheeney only younger and pretty would be disaster. They stand for more of the the same things.

On one key position she takes, the result of failure started from her own house. Its only unfortunate thats its her daughter, its the failure of her policies for me that doesnt make her qualified.

Enjoying this debate where do i start.

Let me start with what i think on your first post before i take the issue of Palin.

I agree that abortion and war are 2 different issues and wont attempt to mix them up.

My arguement is this, being Pro life shouldnt only affect views on abortion or when life starts. It should also affect when it can end, and how it should be preserved. Then if i take a pro life stand then i should be extremely careful when i choose to send troops in harms way to die. You talked about the Iraq war i share your sentiments, it was unjustified.  

The arguement goes beyond that, what are the views on how life is preserved and nutured health care, then how is that pursued.

I agree with you am a christain, born again and my beliefs are guided and inspired by the bible, but i know i have fallen short once or twice so i know it happens. Keeping a child like in d case u mentioned (rape) and to me it extends but i will leave it at that. I shouldnt be instrumental to ensuring that people don't have the choice to do what they want to, i can show them the options but also ensure they have options.

On tax and all, theres no hatred on rich folks, but theres inequality and perceived bias when u cut dividend income tax and cut personal income at maybe d same rate or dividend income even more, (i don't have Bush's figures) the impact is felt more on the salary earner. Warren Buffet explained this when he said his secretary pays more tax than him in propotionate terms, ie tax as a percentage of what he earns, and hes not a salary earner.

Finally on the bankrutsy, Dems manage the economy better example clinton and history shows that, I believe President Clinton was lucky and takes more credit than he deserves but credit to the guy he left the US in a surplus.

I always get the same response on blogs from republicans, if i wasnt a Liberal i know i definatley wont lean towards the right, their arguements cant be presented clearly, its always clouded.

The other day Obama sated the arguement clearly this preganancy has helped shaped it in reality."if we cant agree on abortion at least we can agree on keeping teenage pregnancy down". So why should the arguement be shaped as simply pro life or pro choice, when does life start. When its not quite simple, personalities and behavioural patters affect societies that people face problems everyday they didnt plan for so what happens when it comes.

Bristol is lucky she's from a supportive and comfortable home, what happens to d girl that her parents cant even afford to pay their bills still in high school, what should she do, should the effort have been at preventing it not only by abstinance which is part of it any way but also that she can decided to use condoms whenever she faces d decision.

Am not sympathetic at all she deserves it all. Sorry am diverting here, Please where are John McCcains kids? if any. SO much talk of family values show us your family, we are way past what he did to the first wife at least he regrets it, but what father role did he play in the life of his kids.

@ Jeseoul thanks for your response.

Kobojunkie:

Nope, Logic Warped cause the FACTS SAY SO. I am not having a debate with you. Simply answering you. I am sorry you came late to this but I am not going to start over just cause you want to debate now. There have been at least 100 posts on this topic already. Go read them please. If, However, you choose instead to believe I can not refute your argument, then I am ok with you thinking that too.

Ok. Facts say so but they were not presented.

If you dont want to post dont its not by force. I am okay with your response.

Hannibal:

And this policy is supposed to be America's greatest problem as we speak??

Cynicism infecting every corner of American life??
A tectonic shift to a multi-polar world??
A collapsing educational system??
Iraq War??
Credit Crunch??

Agreed theres more, but we were kind of looking at Palins daughter being preganant and so what? We know the stand of the 2 camps on the issues lets not attempt to turn this to a foreign policy or green thread.

Thanks Jeseoul, my question was do u lean towards the right if you do attempt to respond to that post of sean.