@ goodguy,

goodguy:

I know Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Every true Christian knows and accepts that. But do the Muslims know? I know they've been told and preached to, but are they convinced? We have to first of all understand that these people do not even know, talkless of accepting. . hence, their denial. It's one thing for me to know something as the truth and deny outrightly. It's another for me to be oblivious of it, and then deny based on my ignorance. I don't believe a merciful God will punish me for the latter.

How do you get people to know something?

If God brings something to your knowledge and you claim ignorance to deny the same, you wait and see how your belief will excuse you.

goodguy:

But you didn't mention them. That spells 'B I A S' to me.

Well taken - and I suppose the fact that you didn't mention the same issues I did in my post, portrays your own B-I-A-S??

goodguy:

My point is that we should not attack another religion based on what they fail to see and accept from our own side. Because clearly, they we do not also accept so many things from their side.

Already dealt with - "attacking" is not the same thing as people asking questions and challenging misconceptions. Trying to "educate and admonish" people is often taken as "attacking" others' religions.

goodguy:

Aiight. And that proves what. . .??

This. . . :

. . . those other worshippers of other gods that do not regard Jesus still believe in ONE Almighty God "up there" that is far more superior to them.

Right. . . and then what? I guess we just simply recognize your point in limbo and stop telling the truth about Christ - the very thing Muslims have always wanted!

davidylan:

@ Bari_kade
If you will notice, it is not everyone that claims to be a "christiann" that is really one! Of such Apostle Paul already spoke about:

2 Timothy 3: 5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

When deluded "christians" begin to equate the ALMIGHTY God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob with the idol that is Allah of the quran, then you know that indeed the end is here! From such turn aside, it is not advisable to cast your pearls before swine!

Ah! David, my boy. I've been expecting you, what took you so long? And where's our friend, mrpataki?

Really, you know why I like you? You always locate those Bible verses that directly refer to your person. The other day neesel created a thread for just the two of you, you were so quick to respond with Proverbs 26:4, while still answering her thereafter. At the end of the day, you became subject to the very verse you were quoting for someone else. So my boy, run along and don't mess up this thread with your Bible-thumping hypocrisy.

bari_kade:

Four issues here:

1. If I investigate the claims of any 'prophet' or religion, questions must be asked - and that is precisely why my question was: what crime did Christians and Jews commit to have merited Muhammad's hatred? If Christians use the violence in Muhammad's career to refute his claims of prophethood, one would expect that Muslim apologists themselves offer sound and sane reasons for any misconceptions to that.

2. When your exercise is focused on wars in the Bible, you fail to clearly delineate between the OT and NT; and as Christians we have often challenged this misconception that the OT wars be blamed on Christianity rather than seeking to understand the basis of Judaism. My very first entry to this thread quoted a line in which you acknowledged Jesus Christ came in peace. Why you think Christians are as bellicose as Muslims simply begs the question.

3. It is not only Christians who are concerned about the spate of violence from the Muslim camp - and the cartoons that sparked Muslim riots in the recent past is just one testimony to the point. The basic question on everyone's lips has been: "why is Islam so violent?" Rather than seek dialogue, Muslims themselves have responded with belligerence, threats to blow up the West (as everything 'western' is Christian in the typical Muslim mindset), more threats to annihilate Israel, and vitriolic blasphemies against the Christian faith. In the face of these, many more people of various faiths and political positions are questioning the violent nature of Islam; so it is not only Christians who are talking about these issues [you might as well want to see this youtube clip offered by babyosis to the point].

4. The violence in Islam is not the only issue that is being debated by Christians. There are many more issues that border on the lifestyle of Muhammad - such as his admission to being a sinner needing to repent seventy times a day; his moral life on women and sex; and his denials of the teaching of Christ. Even when Muhammad's violence is not mentioned, how have Muslims responded to any questioning of these other issues?

These and more are the reasons why I feel up until now you haven't really taken the time to even understand the position of Christians debating issues with Muslims.

Thank you very much for elaborating on this. Really appreciated. Now I see your point.

Nonetheless, I still feel you are using the acts of the extremists to castigate Islam as a whole. Not all Muslims are the same. Not all Muslims are violent. While you are probably using the acts of the Iraqis and perhaps, our own Northerners here to view Islam as a religion of Violence, I, on the other hand, am using the peaceful nature of the Muslims where I reside to view Islam. Humans will always be humans, religion or no religion. Afterall, Saudi Arabia that is predominantly a Muslim nation does not cause unnecessary havoc the way the Iraqis and other Muslim nations do. There are in fact so many Muslims that are also seeking peace with the Christians. Even right now as I type, there's a Muslim guy beside me reading all these, and does not like the broad generalization on the way Islam is being depicted. Hope you see where I'm driving at?

bari_kade:

Is it only on Nairaland that Christians have refuted the claims of Muhammad and rejected him as a prophet? Again, you really are not demonstrating a full picture of how Islam portrays Christians and Jews. It is clear that mukina[/b]2's one-line statement speaks volumes without sentiments; and until you actually have studied Islam, you will continue to miss the point.

[b]Mukina2 does not like the way she's being attacked here on Nairaland. We chat on messenger, and I know how she really feels about this whole issue. There are times she created topics and even had to beg to the Christians not to mess up her thread. One of such threads even had to be locked by the Admin when he saw that things were getting out of hand.

bari_kade:

It's remarkable that you'd even mention that Muslims "don't mind killing a fellow human" - and for what? That sounds to me like a choice between a sandwich and a burger - one doesn't mind sometimes between the two. Please, goodguy, we really mind about life, and that's why we celebrate it. It is not a matter to be treated in such cavalier fashion - and Jesus Christ Himself takes the issue seriously:

"They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service" - John 16:2.

Again, it's just the extremists.

bari_kade:

When Jesus categorically stated in John 14:6 that He is the Way and you are questioning that as a Christian, I'll leave you answerable to Him alone.

I'm not questioning Him. I'm only seeking to know if there's more to that statement than the way it is usually interpreted, since it doesn't seem to favour the whole of mankind. We can discuss it here if you don't mind.

bari_kade:

This is one more confirmation that you really do not understand Islam. This neutrality you propose does not exist in reality in the Muslim world.

It does actually exist in the Muslim world, maybe not among the extremists though. I'll be showing you what I mean in my subsequent postings.

bari_kade:

First, I don't see any reason why a convert would have to accept and abide by the teachings of Christianity if we don't know God enough to know what He accepts or disapproves. This is quite a convoluted position to assume; and I'm not inclined to take that norminal position as a Christian.

Second, the Christian faith is soundly based on what the Word teaches and the confirmation of the Holy Spirit in our hearts. How many times do we read in Scripture about the deep conviction of knowing God through His Spirit? See a few -

John 7:17 - "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

John 8:32 - "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

John 10:5 - And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

John 12:50 - "And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak."

Rom. 8:16 - "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God"

I John 2:21 - "I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth."

How then can anyone as a Christian claim that we don't know enough of God to know what He accepts?

We know the things God accepts and disapproves, but do we know ALL? That's what I'm trying to point out. Please don't misunderstand me. You can't tell me there are certain things about God that you have not questioned in your mind. . that alone shows that no human can completely comprehend God.

bari_kade:

Your frequent use of perhaps says two things (and I'm not trying to be accusative): (a) you either are trying to euphemise what you might already know for a certainty; (b) you're accusing God of issues that define the lost destiny of billions of souls.

It's the former actually, not that I totally know for a certainty though.

bari_kade:

Muhammad clearly denied the claims of Christ - and that is not an issue that can be settled on any "perhaps".

If he had known better, he wouldn't have denied Jesus' claims.

bari_kade:

Right. . . and then what? I guess we just simply recognize your point in limbo and stop telling the truth about Christ - the very thing Muslims have always wanted!

That's not my point. Tell the truth about Jesus, but those that are not convinced should not be threatened with the talk of eternal condemnation. I don't believe any sane person that really knows the truth will deny it outrightly. Those that do not know the truth are those that are not convinced, not those that just don't want to believe. Those that get convinced are those that eventually turn to Christianity.

Have you ever wondered why it's usually much easier to convert a Muslim just by preaching, than converting an atheist by mere words of the mouth? That's because a Muslim already knows that there's a God, but just did not understand certain things about him prior to that moment. A Muslim has always seen God differently, and now that he/she has now understood and accepted other parts of Him, it will be easier to subscribe to the Christian faith.

If Christians and Muslims honestly believe they serve different Gods, here's a typical conversation that will normally ensue between them:


Christian: Hey, how are you doing?

Muslim: Not bad.

Christian: Do you know Jesus is the son of God?

Muslim: Which God is that?

Christian: The Christian God of course.

Muslim: Oh. . that's cool.

Christian: Yeah it is.

Muslim: But our own God doesn't have a son.

Christian: Really? Aww. . Too bad.

Muslim: Not to worry though, He's got a prophet that mediates between us and Him.

Christian: Oh. . what's his name?

Muslim: His name is Muhammad (S.A.W)

Christian: That's a nice name.

Muslim: Yeah it is.

Christian: Pal, I have to go now. It was nice chatting with you. See you some other time.

Muslim: Alright buddy. Have a nice day!

Christian: You too.

Muslim: Bye!

Christian: Bye!


But for the fact that they both believe that they serve the same God, here's a typical conversation that will normally ensue between them:


Christian: Jesus is God.

Muslim: That's a lie! Prove it!

Christian: In the beginning was the word, and the word was with God and the word was God (John 1:1).

Muslim: That's very wrong. That's blasphemy! How dare you equate a mere mortal with God? Infact, your Bible is so full of frauds and lies!

Christian: Are you so blind that you cannot comprehend simple truths?

Muslim: What truths? Those are nothing but lies. How possible is it for 2 persons to be the same and still refer to one another as Son and Father?

Christian: You are either simply ignorant or you have a chronic inability to comprehend objective arguments.

Muslim: Me, ignorant? I don't blame you. You lack common sense, retard!

Christian: Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him (Proverbs 26:4).

Muslim: Idiot, you just answered me. That makes you a fool as well!

Christian: Father forgive them, for they know not what they say.

Muslim: After calling me a fool? Good Christian indeed. Hypocrite!



. . . and the fight conversation continues.


So you see, the fact that both are arguing on that issue shows that they both believe in the same God, but each wants the other to see God from their own perspective. That is, one understands the concept of trinity and knows for sure that God has a son, but the other simply finds such notion ridiculous because he doesn't know.

Get my drift?

goodguy:

Ah! David, my boy. I've been expecting you, what took you so long? And where's our friend, mrpataki?

Really, you know why I like you? You always locate those Bible verses that directly refer to your person. The other day neesel created a thread for just the two of you, you were so quick respond with Proverbs 26:4, while still answering her thereafter. At the end of the day, you became subject to the very verse you were quoting for someone else. So my boy, run along and don't mess up this thread with your Bible-thumping hypocrisy.

my dear, that's why i like you too! the feeling is mutual.
You like to portray yourself as a "christian" when deep down you are a deluded muslim pacifist. Yeah you talk to mukina2 on YIM, i do the same too eh! the fact that we argue on NL religion threads sometimes vehemently has not stopped us from being friends! Sorry to burst your self righteous bubble.
Oh and the neelsel and I thread? You conveniently forgot to mention that we reconciled later on eh!
Even the best of friends have their fights, but maturity is knowing when to sheath the sword and embrace the other. Oh did i forget to tell you we are having a good discussion right now on YIM as i type? I'm sure you must be shocked to hear we are now great friends eh!

No i wont "mess up" your thread with my bible thumping (sorry if it shows u up for your Jannes and Jambres mentality), you already messed it up long ago when you compared the God of Elijah to that idol in islam!
I tried so much not to contribute to this jaundiced view of yours but i could not help but chip in a thing or two.

Muslims and christians believe in the same God? Ignorant hypocrite! Pls remove that log in your eyes and come say that in Iran!

goodguy:

Thank you very much for elaborating on this. Really appreciated. Now I see your point.

Nonetheless, I still feel you are using the acts of the extremists to castigate Islam as a whole. Not all Muslims are the same. Not all Muslims are violent. While you are probably using the acts of the Iraqis and perhaps, our own Northerners here to view Islam as a religion of Violence, I, on the other hand, am using the peaceful nature of the Muslims where I reside to view Islam. Humans will always be humans, religion or no religion. Afterall, Saudi Arabia that is predominantly a Muslim nation does not cause unnecessary havoc the way the Iraqis and other Muslim nations do. There are in fact so many Muslims that are also seeking peace with the Christians. Even right now as I type, there's a Muslim guy beside me reading all these, and does not like the broad generalization on the way Islam is being depicted. Hope you see where I'm driving at?

Any right thinking idiot can easily tell you are driving into the ditch. When you claim Saudi Arabia "does not cause unnecessary havoc", one is wont to realise that this is coming from someone who is ignorant of issues. Most of the money that funds extremist sunni islam and the violent form of wahhabism comes from Saudi Arabia.
Osama bn Laden is from the ruling class in Saudi Arabia!
It is also one of the few countries where women have no rights in accordance to strict islamic teaching!

That you see a few "peaceful" muslims around you does not negate the fact that islam is mainly fueled by a spirit of violence.
Christianity is not about "seeking peace" with muslims, it is about the salvation of the soul!

davidylan:

Oh and the neelsel and I thread? You conveniently forgot to mention that we reconciled later on eh!

She's a smart lady. She achieved her aim, got satisfied, and it cost her absolutely nothing to apologize. But you on the other hand, became subject to the same verse that you quoted against her.

And why should I be shocked that mukina2 is chatting with you? I know her to be an easygoing person who doesn't hold grudges against people. Anyway, that's not the issue now. To avoid derailing this thread further, I'll only respond to the part of your post that is relevant to the topic.

davidylan:

Christianity is not about "seeking peace" with muslims, it is about the salvation of the soul!

How contradicting. How do you expect to save a soul without first seeking peace with the person?

By the way, please carry all these your "idiot", "ignorant" and whatnot out of these thread. bari_kade and I have been having a civil conversation so far without the use of words like these to refer to ourselves. I knew your coming to this thread will change the whole story, Mr. "good Christian".

goodguy:

How contradicting. How do you expect to save a soul without first seeking peace with the person?

By the way, please carry all these your "idiot", "ignorant" and whatnot out of these thread. bari_kade and I have been having a civil conversation so far without the use of words like these to refer to ourselves. I knew your coming to this thread will change the whole story, Mr. "good Christian".

It is the very same kind of question the serpent used to decieve Eve in the garden. What would have been your response to this saying:

Mathew 10: 34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
  35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
  36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household

Please ask Jesus that your earlier "contradicting" question.

davidylan:

It is the very same kind of question the serpent used to decieve Eve in the garden. What would have been your response to this saying:

Mathew 10: 34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household

Please ask Jesus that your earlier "contradicting" question.

That verse was in the passage read in church 2 weeks ago. I wanted to start a thread on that to know what Jesus actually meant, but I forgot. The way you have used it here in response to my question makes me believe you've quoted that verse completely out of context.

Because if we are to analyze it, considering the question I asked, and how you offered it as a response, you're implying that Jesus did not come to establish peace among mankind, as earlier agreed between bari_kade and I on the previous page. Is that it?

no, the main thing Jesus was trying to point out to His disciples there was simple.
The Jewish mentality of a Messiah was a glorious king coming in the mould of David to defeat their Roman enemies and become a great king.
They did not reckon with a mere baby born out of wedlock and in a manger claiming to be God Himself!

When Christ made the earlier statement, it was like a prophecy to foretell what being christian would be in this present world. Being a true christian sets u apart from others, men will hate you, ridicule you even family will be against you for your faith.
He was not talking about a realistic sword there but a hypothetical one.

It was a warning the early apostles learned very early: being christian is not a bed of roses. Paul and co went through horrors for their faith, it was not a peaceful ride, neither was it going to be a straight ticket to fame.

@goodguy:

So, your own reason for believing that Muslims worship a different God is due to the fact that Jesus and Muhammad had differing views on certain issues? Is that it?

Why have you ruled out these parts of both religions?

1. Both religions beleive there's ONE supreme God that created Heaven and Earth.
2. Both religions believe there's ONE supreme God that is merciful and loving.
3. Both religions believe in the existence of Heaven and Hell.

. . . and so on.

Obviously, these are two different religions. You cannot expect two different religions to have the same views on all issues. It just isn't possible. Now let's take a look at Yoruba traditions. There are different gods served in Yorubaland. They probably don't even believe in Jesus, even though Ifa worshippers actually regard Jesus. There's a line in one of their incantations that refers to the son of the Virgin Mary and all that. . and they usually seek his help in spiritual matters. But then, those other worshippers of other gods that do not regard Jesus still believe in ONE Almighty God "up there" that is far more superior to them.

So as we can see, different people see and worship God in different ways, and this is exactly what I mean (okay, gbade. x?).

to simply answer this question, i'll take a verse from the Bible:


"I am the way the truth and the life, no one cometh to the Father except through me"


like i once said, the differences in religions worldwide is in their doctrines and tenets. the fact that 2 or more religions have similar doctrines dosn't negate the differences

In order for this discussion to go smoothly, i believe clarifications have to be made about both religions i.e : Christianity and Islam.

SALVATION

Christianity
A free gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9) to the person who trusts in Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. He is our mediator (1 Tim. 2:5). No works are sufficient in any way to merit salvation since our works are all unacceptable to God (Isaiah 64:6).

Islam
Forgiveness of sins is obtained by Allah's grace without a mediator. The Muslim must believe Allah exists, believe in the fundamental doctrines of Islam, believe that Muhammad is his prophet, and follow the commands of Allah given in the Koran.


ATONEMENT

Christianity
The sacrifice of Christ on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) whereby His blood becomes the sacrifice that turns away the wrath of God (1 John 2:2) from the sinner when the sinner receives (John 1:12), by faith (Rom. 5:1), the work of Christ on the cross.

Islam
There is no atonement work in Islam other than a sincere confession of sin and repentance by the sinner.

Man

Christianity
Made in the image of God (Gen. 1:26). This does not mean that God has a body, but that man is made like God in abilities (reason, faith, love, etc.).

Islam
Not made in the image of God (42:11). Man is made out of the dust of the earth (23:12) and Allah breathed life into man (32:9; 15:29).



________________________________________________________________



This are just a few of the ones i felt were most important to our discussion.


Now we can trash out issues more appropiately. Enjoy

@goodguy,

While at a friend's house, I was just sitting as a Guest online watching the interesting development of this burning issue. I'll take my friend's advise to offer brevity and not overstate the obvious.

Sorry to notice that your responses keep missing the point because they really are not based on reality. Somehow, I'm persuaded that you're basing your convictions merely on ideas that have no substance in the tenets of either faith; and if you're pushing your agenda in disregard of the core beliefs of these faiths, it then does not stand to reason that you even had a serious concern ab initio.

When you make arguments that disregard the core beliefs and practices of either faiths, it would seem that you're asking us to have a religion either ways in total disregard of the core expressions and beliefs of the religion in question. Which would simply make your arguments only tangential to reality. Let me offer just a line for now to the point:

goodguy:

Nonetheless, I still feel you are using the acts of the extremists to castigate Islam as a whole. Not all Muslims are the same. Not all Muslims are violent. . . .

I'll be first to admit that not all Muslims are violent. However, let me assure you that I haven't appealed to extremists activities to castigate Islam as a whole, as you alleged. Please go over carefully again and understand the approach employed in my presentation. Among other things, I have always sought to ask questions and offered references to buttress my persuasions. In contrast,  what you have been posting are hypothetical ideas that may, at best, be misleading to the general reader - some of who may not have the slightest clue on the subject.

goodguy:

Afterall, Saudi Arabia that is predominantly a Muslim nation does not cause unnecessary havoc the way the Iraqis and other Muslim nations do.

I'm not so sure where you're taking this persuasion from; but I'll easily refer you to documented evidence that negate your premise about the Saudi Arabia case. Just one news article confirms that  Saudi Arabia also completely forbids all public non-Muslim religious activities; and excerpts:

"As the State Department has comprehensively documented, the government of Saudi Arabia forbids all demonstration of religious faith that is not consistent with the state-sanctioned interpretation of the Sunni branch of Islam. Shi’a Muslims, who constitute about eight percent of the Saudi population, face severe discrimination in employment and education. Their books are banned, their religious ceremonies discouraged, their most basic rights violated because judges are officially permitted to ignore their testimony in court. Many Shi’a leaders have been imprisoned. One cleric, Sheikh Ahmed Turki al-Saab, was sentenced last year to flogging and 7 years in prison after making comments critical of the government to the Wall Street Journal.

"Saudi Arabia also completely forbids all public non-Muslim religious activities. Non-Muslim clergy are prohibited from visiting the country. The distribution of Bibles is banned. Many Christians have been imprisoned or deported for practicing their faith. The Saudi authorities have even punished private religious expression, raiding homes where private worship was taking place and arresting the participants. In one such case reported by the State Department, 2 Filipino Christian residents were sentenced to 30 days in prison, 150 lashes, and deportation in April of 2002 for conducting a Roman Catholic prayer group in their home.

"The Departments Religious Freedom Report is crystal clear in its judgment of Saudi Arabia’s record. It concludes, simply, that “freedom of religion does not exist” in Saudi Arabia. The State Department has been able to make such a categorical statement about only two countries in the world: North Korea and Saudi Arabia."

Well, there it is, and at the risk of almost breaking my promise for brevity. However, I would still have the persuasion that you have not carefully handled the subject you proposed, and have hitherto presented unreal drama sketches that fall far short of the substance of this discussion.

bari_kade and I have been having a civil conversation so far without the use of words like these to refer to ourselves.

I learn everyday and have repented of uncivil mannerisms in discussing issues. I'd like to offer the same to all discussants, and thank everyone for being gentlemanly so far.

Regards.

davidylan:

no, the main thing Jesus was trying to point out to His disciples there was simple.
The Jewish mentality of a Messiah was a glorious king coming in the mould of David to defeat their Roman enemies and become a great king.
They did not reckon with a mere baby born out of wedlock and in a manger claiming to be God Himself!

When Christ made the earlier statement, it was like a prophecy to foretell what being christian would be in this present world. Being a true christian sets u apart from others, men will hate you, ridicule you even family will be against you for your faith.
He was not talking about a realistic sword there but a hypothetical one.

It was a warning the early apostles learned very early: being christian is not a bed of roses. Paul and co went through horrors for their faith, it was not a peaceful ride, neither was it going to be a straight ticket to fame.

If truly, this is the correct interpretation of that verse, then I don't see how it connects to the question I asked. May I remind you of what led to this? You said:

"Christianity is not about "seeking peace" with muslims, it is about the salvation of the soul!".

And I asked you how possible it is to save a soul, without seeking peace with your target. Or will you save a soul with violence?

Then you replied with the John 10:34 quote. I asked you to explain, and what I have up there is what you delivered. Now please tell me, how does your explanation above link with "Christianity, not seeking peace"? Because obviously, the fact that Jesus prohibited revenge among his followers alone shows that he came to establish peace on earth. I'm sure even bari_kade will agree with me on this one.

gbade. x:

@goodguy:

to simply answer this question, i'll take a verse from the Bible:

"I am the way the truth and the life, no one cometh to the Father except through me"

That's in John 14:6.  And I've also asked previously, where does this leave those that died before Christ?  Or those that did not get convinced about the Gospel?  Someone created a topic on that, but no one has given any answers so far.

gbade. x:

like i once said, the differences in religions worldwide is in their doctrines and tenets. the fact that 2 or more religions have similar doctrines dosn't negate the differences

Sure.  And the fact that they both have different tenets and doctrines doesn't negate the fact that they have the same beliefs.  They are only aiming at the same thing, through different means.

gbade. x:

In order for this discussion to go smoothly, i believe clarifications have to be made about both religions i.e : Christianity and Islam.

SALVATION

Christianity
A free gift of God (Eph. 2:8-9) to the person who trusts in Christ and His sacrifice on the cross. He is our mediator (1 Tim. 2:5). No works are sufficient in any way to merit salvation since our works are all unacceptable to God (Isaiah 64:6).

Islam
Forgiveness of sins is obtained by Allah's grace without a mediator. The Muslim must believe Allah exists, believe in the fundamental doctrines of Islam, believe that Muhammad is his prophet, and follow the commands of Allah given in the Koran.

Have you ever wondered if God required things of us in different ways?  That is, for the followers of Christ, the applicable one is the Bible verse you provided, and for the followers of Muhammad, they really don't need all that. .  ?  Have you ever wondered what God really could be up to?  Have you ever wondered if He's just trying to prove a point?  Hey, I'm just wondering myself.

gbade. x:

ATONEMENT

Christianity
The sacrifice of Christ on the cross (1 Pet. 2:24) whereby His blood becomes the sacrifice that turns away the wrath of God (1 John 2:2) from the sinner when the sinner receives (John 1:12), by faith (Rom. 5:1), the work of Christ on the cross.

Islam
There is no atonement work in Islam other than a sincere confession of sin and repentance by the sinner.

Man

Ditto.

gbade. x:

Christianity
Made in the image of God (Gen. 1:26). This does not mean that God has a body, but that man is made like God in abilities (reason, faith, love, etc.).

Islam
Not made in the image of God (42:11). Man is made out of the dust of the earth (23:12) and Allah breathed life into man (32:9; 15:29).

The last two are enough evidence that both religions believe in the same thing.  And concerning the first one, it has only buttressed my point further that they see things differently.

gbade. x:

This are just a few of the ones i felt were most important to our discussion.

Now we can trash out issues more appropiately. Enjoy

Thanks for your input.  Really appreciated.  Anyway, all I have gathered so far, from this post of yours and the input of others just shows that your reason for believing Muslims worship Idols is because of the varying doctrines.  But should be doctrines be a basis for such assertions in the first place?

The whole thing is more like:


Jesus did this, Mohammad did that
Jesus did those, Muhammad did these
Jesus did not do this, Muhammad did that
Muhammad did not do this, Jesus did that

So therefore, followers of these two People worship different Gods.  [More like a Logical analysis]

But should it be so?  Is anyone here reasoning with me at all?

@bari_kade,

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Thanks for the Saudi Arabia article, by the way. And thanks for being gentlemanly too, so far.

God bless.

davidylan:

It is the very same kind of question the serpent used to decieve Eve in the garden. What would have been your response to this saying:

Mathew 10: 34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household

Please ask Jesus that your earlier "contradicting" question.

Looking at the way you posted this specific verses in the bible. You are trying to say that Christians should condemn Muslims because they wage wars on us, considering the posts you are trying to back up. And that the lord does not forgive any Muslims.

These same verse you are trying to explain has already been expounded upon in the thread, "Why Christianity Is Wrong" in which babs787 asked this same question and I gave him an erudite answer of want Jesus was trying to pass across.


But your explanation is quite off the track.

davidylan:

no, the main thing Jesus was trying to point out to His disciples there was simple.
The Jewish mentality of a Messiah was a glorious king coming in the mould of David to defeat their Roman enemies and become a great king.
They did not reckon with a mere baby born out of wedlock and in a manger claiming to be God Himself!

I don't see this explaining the verses you quoted above, though you are trying to prove a point about the birth of Christ.

davidylan:
When Christ made the earlier statement, it was like a prophecy to foretell what being Christian would be in this present world. Being a true Christian sets u apart from others, men will hate you, ridicule you even family will be against you for your faith.
He was not talking about a realistic sword there but a hypothetical one.

It was a warning the early apostles learned very early: being christian is not a bed of roses. Paul and co went through horrors for their faith, it was not a peaceful ride, neither was it going to be a straight ticket to fame.

Let me correct this, it wasn't a prophesy that foretell what Christians would be in this present world as you said, but was talking about the aftermath of the Rapture.
The verse was a warning alright, and a clarification of what will happen in His(Jesus) second coming.

I hope you get my point.

@ Imam goodguy,

goodguy:



Jesus did this, Mohammad did that
Jesus did those, Muhammad did these
Jesus did not do this, Muhammad did that
Muhammad did not do this, Jesus did that

So therefore, both Worship different Gods. [More like a Logical analysis]

But should it be so? Is anyone here reasoning with me at all?

Well am not reasoning with you at all on that line knowing that you are full pledged muslim! Now I ask you, Does both religion enjoin the men to beat their women as dogs, equate them to animals, does both religion enjoin that it is by works that we shall be saved?

Does both religion support that killing the infidels is the ideal way of propagating their gospels?
Does both religion support the fact that marrying more than one woman is ideal in Gods eyes?

Stop making me to believe that you cannot reason at all!

Omo,i am new in the house.make i no l lie.i like this TOPIC and also the contributiions from the Narialanders

@ ope_emi,
Sorry to interject here, just because you feel you should side your very good friend (goodguy), you may begin to make off-mark inputs.

ope_emi:

These same verse you are trying to explain has already been expounded upon in the thread, "Why Christianity Is Wrong" in which babs787 asked this same question and I gave him an erudite answer of want Jesus was trying to pass across.

This is the epitome of it all. Never ascribe the glory of answers to Gods words here to your intellect!

ope_emi:

Looking at the way you posted this specific verses in the bible. You are trying to say that Christians should condemn Muslims because they wage wars on us, considering the posts you are trying to back up.

[b]Let me correct this, it wasn't a prophesy that foretell what Christians would be in this present world as you said, but was talking about the aftermath of the Rapture.[/b]The verse was a warning alright, and a clarification of what will happen in His(Jesus) second coming.

I hope you get my point.

Pray tell me the erudite one!, Where do I place a friend of mine whose parents sent him out of the house for converting to a christian from am Imam family, or where do I place another of my friend whose Alhaji father is telling him he cannot marry a christian lady or else, he will curse him to his death!
Or myself that I am daily persecuted by friends for being a bible bashing bigot even here on nairaland by Reverend and his moronic species?

If and only if it is only in the aftermath (rapture) that christians are going to be persecuted

mrpataki:

@ Imam goodguy,
Well am not reasoning with you at all on that line knowing that you are full pledged muslim!

Aha!  There we have it.   Now, I see the cause of the Christian/Muslim attacks on Nairaland.  As far as the opposer is a Muslim, the post should be attacked under all circumstances!  You really are a good Christian, brother!  I can see God clapping for you sef. 

mrpataki:

Now I ask you, Does both religion enjoin the men to beat their women as dogs, equate them to animals, does both religion enjoin that it is by works that we shall be saved?

Does both religion support that killing the infidels is the ideal way of propagating their gospels?
Does both religion support the fact that marrying more than one woman is ideal in Gods eyes?

Stop making me to believe that you cannot reason at all!

I should be the one saying this to you.  Don't make me believe you cannot read, think and reason at all!  I have posted several times on this thread, and other threads that there are differences, and your list up there is just a part of it.  So what really is the fuss all about?

goodguy:


I should be the one saying this to you.  Don't make me believe you cannot read, think and reason at all!  I have posted several times on this thread, and other threads that there are differences, and your list up there is just a part of it.  So what really is the fuss all about? 

I care less what your opinion of me is actually. I am only concerned with the fact that you coul label another person as to not been a christian rather a churchgoer, yet you know little of the God Christians worship!

Believe all you want about me, at least, I told you what I believe about you, but really I am not bothered at all!

Really the fuss is that, you should be the one applying your sense of logics to see that the muslim idol is different from the God true christians worship.

mrpataki:

I care less what your opinion of me is actually. I am only concerned with the fact that you coul label another person as to not been a christian rather a churchgoer, yet you know little of the God Christians worship!

I think God would even prefer a churchgoer to bible-thumping hypocrites, hiding under the umbrella of "I sabi quote Bible pass you, you no sabi God reach me" attitude.

mrpataki:

Believe all you want about me, at least, I told you what I believe about you, but really I am not bothered at all!

Now you remind me of secondary school.  Gone are those days!

mrpataki:

Really the fuss is that, you should be the one applying your sense of logics to see that the muslim idol is different from the God true christians worship.

This is where everyone is missing it.  Muslims do not worship Idols.  They worship the true living God that we Christians serve, and that's why I can confidently equate the Muslim God with the Christian God (not that they are different anyway).

You people are looking at it from the "The Christian God is bigger and superior" angle, but I'm simply looking at it from "The Christian/Muslim God is the Supreme God, and both worship Him" angle.  I'm not equating any idol with God Almighty.  Geddit?

@ godguy,
Wait till when other great nairalanders return here to see how shocked they would be, knowing that you are a muslim!!!
You were very good with your pretense.

I am still shocked at that fact. Got to go see a doctor now. Will be back soon.

So Nairaland get great and "ungreat" people?  Seun did not tell us that one o!

And what will their shock do to my life?  You really amuse me, mrpataki!

So anyone that pursues peace between Christians and Muslims automatically becomes a Muslim?  Funny guy!

I gat 2 go to church now. Catch ya later!

goodguy:

This is where everyone is missing it.  Muslims do not worship Idols.  They worship the true living God that we Christians serve, and that's why I can confidently equate the Muslim God with the Christian God (not that they are different anyway).

Not a good perception.

@ goodguy et al:

of most, if not in all religions; the basic/blueprint of these religions are in their doctrine. Therein the doctrines and tenets, are the laws and guidelines by which followers of these various religions conduct themselves/live their lives.

Your misconception/error comes largely from erronously equating principles/doctrine with perception.

Human perception may vary and as such thoughts and opinions would vary giving way to opinions.

the tenets/doctrine of a religion are rigid/steadfast and stand throughout, not conforming to time and age or human perceptions and rationalization.

In these doctrines, it is expounded HOW followers should serve their deity. The difference then comes in HOW these deities should be served, THROUGH the doctrines laid down by the Books of such religions.

By this difference, the deities ARE DIFFERENT.

@ goodguy et al:

i hope you understood my lingo and followed my train of thought?

mrpataki:

@ ope_emi,
Sorry to interject here, just because you feel you should side your very good friend (goodguy), you may begin to make off-mark inputs.

Will you try explaining what you meant by "off-mark inputs".

mrpataki:

This is the epitome of it all. Never ascribe the glory of answers to Gods words here to your intellect!

If you think I was ascribing the glory of answers to my intellect as you put it, then will you try explaining to me what the verse quoted by davidylan meant.

mrpataki:

Pray tell me the erudite one!

I guess this was a typo.

mrpataki:

Where do I place a friend of mine whose parents sent him out of the house for converting to a christian from am Imam family, or where do I place another of my friend whose Alhaji father is telling him he cannot marry a christian lady or else, he will curse him to his death!
Or myself that I am daily persecuted by friends for being a bible bashing bigot even here on nairaland by Reverend and his moronic species?

Like we all know this common proverbs that says, "Fingers are not equal". There will be people who will do anything to keep there family into there religion. While there are some who believes the world would be a better place regardless of there religion.

You see, there will always be people like Reverend, and you can't force them of there beliefs. All we can do is to advice and tell them the truth. It is now left to them to make a choice. And whatever they say against you shouldn't be of any importance as long as you have your faith rooted in God.

And I believe as a Christian by faith such derogatory words like "moronic species" should be used, right?

mrpataki:

If and only if it is only in the aftermath (rapture) that christians are going to be persecuted

They word Christian is very easy to say. If you are a Christian by mouth, so shall it be(as above). But if you are a Christian by faith, the Kingdom of Heaven awaits your arrival.

*goodguy's back from church*

gbade. x, I understand you perfectly. .  I just don't agree.  I've been repeating myself over and over again and there really isn't any point posting on this issue any further.


And on this note. .  I hereby rest my case.  Take care guys.

@ goodguy,

yeah there really is no point your posting here or anyone else trying in vain to convince you. As soon as i saw this line:

goodguy:

This is where everyone is missing it. Muslims do not worship Idols. They worship the true living God that we Christians serve, and that's why I can confidently equate the Muslim God with the Christian God (not that they are different anyway).

I realised there was no point trying to show a blind man the difference between white and black. Please continue in your pacifist delusion.

goodguy:

You people are looking at it from the "The Christian God is bigger and superior" angle, but I'm simply looking at it from "The Christian/Muslim God is the Supreme God, and both worship Him" angle. I'm not equating any idol with God Almighty. Geddit?

Yes i geddit! You have no idea what God you worship you've just been decieving yourself that you know Him. This is not about superiority of Gods, it is about the sovereignity of the Alpha and the Omega!

@ ope_emi,
In your attempt to provide "erudite" scholarship, you simply goofed when you claim the persecution of the church as i quoted earlier is going to occur after Christ's second coming.

1. Since you and goodguy believe that YOU (not we!) and the muslims serve the same "god", i wonder whom you are really expecting. It cant be the Jesus who SAID He was the way the truth and the life, Goodguy has told us that was not what Jesus meant.

2. What do you call the experience of the early apostles after the pentecost? Persecution?

You both can keep deluding yourselves, i wonder what you will be hearing in church. Soon islamochristianity will take over!

I don't worship a god.  I worship the Almighty God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Here's a post from a Muslim: 

https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria?topic=38267.32#msg859377

And that's my point exactly.

davidylan:

It can't be the Jesus who SAID He was the way the truth and the life, Goodguy has told us that was not what Jesus meant.

I am deluded, ignorant and blind - that's a really nice way to address issues, you know? Anyway, can you kindly show me where I said outrightly that Jesus did not mean He is the Way, Truth and Life?