FxMasterz:

This does not negate the fact that angels are created for specific purposes. There are sick angels for whom Christ never died. Think about it.



But where did you see me insinuate that service is a form of gratification? This is false accusation.

Angels are specifically created for specific purposes. Man is created as a being capable of relationship with God. Not for specific purposes like a robot.

FxMasterz:


There's no pride in stating the facts as they are in scripture. I even supported my position with three relevant scriptures references which you ignored. Angels are ministers. That is messengers. That's all.

God created man in His own image and likeness for a reason - Fellowship and punishment for Satan.

Why do you need to send a messenger? I do remember Jesus saying "go forth into the world and preach unto all nations" was he not sending us forth with a purpose; are we not his messengers, are there not ministers in the church today? What's with the exaggeration and emphasis on the word " messenger"? When the same meaning is applied to us.
I understand "he is just a messenger" belittlement. Even Jesus is a messenger of God, he did his Father's will spoke his the words his Father gave him.

Each angel is created for a specific duty. Angels of war for war. Message bearing angels for messages. Worship angels for worship. Covering angels for coverings. Etc.

Let me burst your bubble, the bible said there was war with heaven; Micheal and his angels fought the devil and his angels, do you think the war was only fought by warring angels while the covering angels kept covering or perhaps the worship angels were busy singing?

What does this tell you? If you are a critical thinker you will grab my point

Man died keep his state because he fell as a result of sin. The angels that fell as a result of sin didn't keep their states either -

are they not still spirit? But the ones that fell have they not become polluted? You don't still get, why do you have to die of yourself(born again) before you can be saved? Why do you have to worship God in spirit and be clean? Even when you become christian, have you become a Spirit? No, you still have the same state(physical) but something is changed your spirit is joined with God and as a result your flesh must be kept holy, which makes you bear good fruits etc.

God's initial program was for Him to be God in heaven and for man His image to be lord on earth.

Hebrews 1:14

"Therefore, angels are only servants—spirits sent to care for people who will inherit salvation." - The same way UN sends care workers to war torn republics and nations. Am sure in some IDF camp someone will be thinking I am surely greater than these people serving us because "they are our servants". Proper understanding is key!

You might do well to read the whole Hebrews 1 and 2 to understand these facts.

FxMasterz:


Man became mortal. He was originally immortal. He'll be immortal again at the close of this age when all things have been restituted. Man has an immortal spirit. A translation from his mortal flesh which came as a result of the fall does not make him mortal.

Please man in his spiritual state is a being created to engage God. Angels cannot do that. Angels will never sit on a throne but man will.

Jesus which took the form of a man🤔- be precise, it's The Son that sits on the throne and he had been with the Father even before the beginning don't mislead people

You're looking at physical man while I'm talking to you about the spiritual man.

Angels were referred to as sons of God, not because they were begotten of God but because they came from God's heaven. God has never personally referred to angels as His children. Give me any scripture that does.

God has referred to man as son, friend, confidant, etc. This is a fallacy, there is no place in the bible where God personally called men his sons except in the case of Jesus🤔, once again emphasis on Jesus the Hebrew writer understood this and wanted to show the Lordship of the son

Lucifyre:


How does this in any way prove that Jesus was a fictionalized invention of the romans created to do what you said. If anything it even counters your claim by pointing to an actual historical Jesus which Josephus did. All you did was show me what we already know that christainity was an offshoot of Judaism, where you expecting a new created sect to have fully formed . According to academic scholar Dan Maclellan, even by the time of the writing of the first gospel of Mark around 70CE, the no of christains compared to the general population was like 1000 to basically millions, besides Jospehus was talking about Jewish sects. This doesn't serve the purpose you think it does.

Yes there were several individuals named Jesus as it was a common name but again i don't see how this helps your claim instead again its the opposite since he was uniquely identified out of the others because the unique identifier was how he was popularly known, and was sufficient enough to identify him. Even if that wasn't the case how does the lack of "son of lead" to the conclusion you came up with. Its rather poorly done, maybe read Atwill's book to form a better argument to support this your claim.

Like most theists you come to a conclusion and look for and as well bend evidence to support that conclusion when it should be the other way round with the evidence leading to the conclusion. Like i said earlier it's ready a consensus and has gone past opinion amongst scholars, there was a historical Jesus the Christ, did he do what was said in the bible?! That's a different matter all together. Even for mythicists that deny the historical Jesus, the claim that a historical Jesus was a roman invention is clearly disputed and not consensus. So this your proof is rather poor cause it doesn't support you claim at all, even though its a legitimate source.

P.S You keep dodging my questions about the Torah, right from your first thread. Lol!

MindHacker9009:


Your opinion is not based on critical analysis of the historical information we now have available other than the NT. The point I have been making is that Jesus christ is an invention of the Roman empire and was used as a psychological warfare and later as a political tool within the Roman empire and to the rest of the world where the Europeans have occupied.

Flavius Josephus in order to save his life had to switch to the side of the Roman empire, he was giving a place to stay in the palace of the the Roman emperor and was made to write about the invented Jesus christ and the fake resurrection, to make it look like it is true because it's coming from a Jewish first century prophet and historian. But the truth is that Jews see him as a traitor that betrayed his own people.

There were other people called Jesus in the first century but the half man/ half god was an invention of the Roman empire. It was easy to invent a story of a fake virgin birth, a fake resurrection with all four stories contradicting themselves, fake accession. But it is impossible to fake the second coming even though all the prophecies of the invented Jesus christ came to pass in seventy AD when Jerusalem and the Temple in Jerusalem were destroyed.      
About the Torah mentioned you can as well ask which Ifa or which Ogun, which Shango or which, which Olókun.

If you really want to understand how the Roman empire invented Jesus Christ then you need to watch this documentary: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmEScIUcvz0

DaddyCoool:

Do you realize how silly and convoluted you sound??
Every other time Rome simply went to war. This is the ONLY time in history this has ever happened - to defeat a much weaker adversary, you create a messiah for them (whose every story tarnished you). Then when it didn't work, you turn the Messiah on your own people, and use your fake messiah to destroy your own gods that made you a great empire, and your made-up messiah now becomes the only true God! WOW!! DO YOU REALIZE HOW STUPID YOU SOUND??!

And, created by WHOM exactly? ("Rome" is not a person - even King James appended his name to KJV). And what other great works did this our great author write afterwards? This greatest of authors who came up with the powerful words of Christ in the NT couldn't have just stopped there and wrote nothing else!

DaddyCoool:

I KNEW IT!! YouTube is where our man does his research. YouTube, the conspiracy nuts' Bible!

I wrote this earlier:

Do you realize how silly and convoluted you sound??
Every other time Rome simply went to war. This is the ONLY time in history this has ever happened - to defeat a much weaker adversary, you create a messiah for them (whose every story tarnished you). Then when it didn't work, you turn the Messiah on your own people, and use your fake messiah to destroy your own gods that made you a great empire, and your made-up messiah now becomes the only true God! WOW!! DO YOU REALIZE HOW STUPID YOU SOUND??!

And, created by WHOM exactly? ("Rome" is not a person - even King James appended his name to KJV). And what other great works did this our great author write afterwards? This greatest of authors who came up with the powerful words of Christ in the NT couldn't have just stopped there and wrote nothing else!

MindHacker9009:


You are the one that sounds STUPID, SILLY AND CONVOLUTED. Jesus christ was fist invented as a tool for psychological warfare against the Jews and later used as a political tool first used in the Roman empire to unite the empire and then exported to Africa and the rest of the world.
Why was it a good political tool, it's because it was invented from the Jewish Torah due to the power it has on the Jews who gave the Roman empire their greatest battles for over a century.

Referring to yourself as STUPID, SILLY AND CONVOLUTED over an invented Jesus christ which if a doctor, or nurse, or teacher etc should preach at work in the country your KJV came from or Europe that brought the invented Jesus christ to Africa, they should expect to kiss their job good bye. This is because they don't want their people to be deceived.

Because people like you are SCAMMERS using the invented Jesus christ to deceive the gullible and those who are naive, that's why you insult your selves once you see that your scam is being exposed that Jesus christ is an invention of the Roman empire and has nothing to do with God Almighty of the Jewish Original Torah.

MindHacker9009:


You are the one that sounds STUPID, SILLY AND CONVOLUTED. Jesus christ was fist invented as a tool for psychological warfare against the Jews and later used as a political tool first used in the Roman empire to unite the empire and then exported to Africa and the rest of the world.
Why was it a good political tool, it's because it was invented from the Jewish Torah due to the power it has on the Jews who gave the Roman empire their greatest battles for over a century.

Referring to yourself as STUPID, SILLY AND CONVOLUTED over an invented Jesus christ which if a doctor, or nurse, or teacher etc should preach at work in the country your KJV came from or Europe that brought the invented Jesus christ to Africa, they should expect to kiss their job good bye. This is because they don't want their people to be deceived.

Because people like you are SCAMMERS using the invented Jesus christ to deceive the gullible and those who are naive, that's why you insult your selves once you see that your scam is being exposed that Jesus christ is an invention of the Roman empire and has nothing to do with God Almighty of the Jewish Original Torah.

MindHacker9009:


See how STUPID, SILLY AND CONVOLUTED you sound, just because you don't know how powerful YouTube is. For your information YouTube was bought by Google from its original creators for about five billion dollars due to the potentials it has in advancing the information age we are in today.
So to you all the live university lectures, research videos, educational videos, programming videos etc on YouTube are all conspiracy nuts! No wonder you are waiting for your invented Jesus christ to come and fix Nigeria for you.

Truth is that you are a SCAMMER that belongs to the stone age. YouTube for your information has made a lot of people to become enlightened today and this will continue and there is nothing SCAMMERS like you that belongs to the stone age can do to stop it other than calling yourselves STUPID, SILLY AND CONVOLUTED.

Gabrielshow24:
.


In conclusion the story is about the Son and mystery of God's love upon him and he in return has reciprocated his Father's Love upon his creation, that's why you see biblical emphasis of freely have you received freely should you give, love your neighbor as your self etc and if you paid attention to the "self Isolated/ remote thought experiment" I posted earlier you will see that it's all about giving!!! He that must be the chiefest must serve all so if you are receiving service then you cannot be greater than he that is rendering service only in the matters of men is the converse true hence once again I say your argument is folly and based on Pride

Gabrielshow24:


Angels that presents themselves before the Father, surround the throne of God, tell the Son to cast forth his sickle to reap the world, offer your prayers before God and angels that had self will to rebel does that seem like a robot. I remember scriptures saying in the Torah that the Lord will send his Angel to go before you ensure that you do not provoke him. You paint angels as robots and as a result servants as a consequence you still exhibit pride. What you are doing is appeal to emotion there is a stage you reach that you are held accountable for your deeds no matter what soever you do you will get judgement; even Moses after striking the rock did not see the promise land even after supplication to God. Don't be deceived for a man to attain something of value he needs discipline albeit a great God. If the chief of justice commits murder will any judge pardon him he is guilty of the law at which he preaches/practices but if a child commits murder you can claim ignorance what does the bible say? My people perish because of ignorance(lack of knowledge). Hence there is a certain level of knowledge you attain that you can no longer feign ignorance the judgement of God will be mete. Once again angels are spirit, man is flesh. It is the flesh that dies because the spirit moves away.

One angel came and bound the devil am pretty sure of your own will you can do that, right?
Angels also came to take Lazarus to Abraham's bosom. Of your own will can you go there? you don't even know where to go, where to turn your face?. You blaspheme against God's holy angels. You claim yourself to be something when you are not what did the Lord teach about pride as regards the parable of the wedding? You are still missing the point. You seem to forget so soon about Matthew13:47-49. You are the fish they are the fishermen sorting good from bad🤔. I wonder how many fishes must have thought they were better than those that sort them?

DaddyCoool:


This is truly laughable😅. Ok, so they were already immortal, so what was the use of the tree of life that'd make them immortal??
So God didn't want beings with knowledge to also be immortal. Have you forgotten Satan and the angels??
As to "us", wasn't God referring to immortal beings? Isn't it same as "lest they become immortal like we all are in heaven"??
Na wa 4 u o

FxMasterz:


The tree of Life was their normal food.

Ask yourself, why would God create humans that die? Why did God say if you eat the fruit, you'll die? Why did Jesus have to come and restore eternal life? Why would there be a new heaven and a new earth where immortality reigns if that wasn't God's original plan. Or you don't know that our coming immortality is simply a restoration?

Man doesn't die, we only die because of a sinful nature. Man can never die. He can only depart earth and translate. He lives forever whether in heaven or hell! Man is an eternal being.

The fact that death itself would be cast into hell is proof that death itself is a violation of in our world. Revelation 20:14.

In the beginning, God created man to live on earth forever. He had no plan of translation to heaven or hell until sin crept into our lives. The glory of God departed and we earned ourselves a dying body.

DaddyCoool:


I take it you have accepted that mindless Adam and Eve, without even self-awareness, cannot rule over anything, talkless of knowledgeable Satan. So QED on that one.

As for the life fruit, I told you these things are beyond human logic! Also, I hope you know you shouldn't be adding words to the Bible. Here's what God told them in Genesis 1:29: "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food". We don’t know if the life fruit had seed in it. But nowhere does it say the life fruit was their normal food, and the consensus of SCHOLARS is that they never ate of it.

Hence the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

You have to be really insincere to read that statement and conclude it says they were already eating the fruit. We don’t know if their BODIES was immortal or to what extent. If it were physical death then Christ's work would have corrected it but it doesn't - what it corrects is spiritual death.

But beyond all these, using human logic, why would God put the knowledge tree in the garden in the first place?? Who can resist eating it for ETERNITY (assuming physical immortality). Not only that, He also allowed Satan around to tempt the woman who wasn't around when the commandment was issued! It was Adam alone He gave the commandment, before Eve was created (To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you..). Not only that, once they ate the fruit why couldn't omnipotent God wipe their memory and restore them to mindlessness - the way He liked them?? Or destroy them and create new ones, minus tree?

Bottom line: don't reason these things with limited human reasoning!

FxMasterz:

The Bible says in Genesis 1:26 - 28 that God gave the Dominion to Adam. He was given rule over all things. Adam was very knowledgeable in his glorious state. He was a prince in his own domain. Can we even start to teach you about these things

DaddyCoool:


Wow! Just wow!! There are all sorts of convoluted conspiracy madness, but this one takes the cake!
Where do I even start. This would be the first and only time this happened in history. Which genius in Rome produced all those powerful words and what other similar works did he produce? Soo somebody in Rome came up with a messiah who taught that their emperor and all their gods were trash and their emperor was headed straight to hell. Why didn't they lynch such a person? And they invented him for the Jews! Do you know the jews never believed in Jesus and that Judea was sacked by Rome in 70 AD? Why didn't Rome end Christianity after that? Why did they then let Christianity consume Rome and they abandoned their own gods?!

Once again, have you ever read the Bible, child?
Did Rome also create all those verses in OT pointing to the comming of Christ? Did they also invent the apostles? How many? And the prophets and Mary, Joseph, genealogy of Christ? What great inventors those Romans were!

DaddyCoool:


I edited my post. See it below. Try not to respond with stupid human logic. Adam did not know he was naked, probably did not know he had a body, what a wise man!
>>>>>>>>>>>

I take it you have accepted that mindless Adam and Eve, without even self-awareness, cannot rule over anything, talkless of knowledgeable Satan.
Also, Satan and other angels had knowledge of good and evil yet could live forever.
So QED on those ones.

As for the life fruit, I told you these things are beyond human logic! Also, I hope you know you shouldn't be adding words to the Bible. Here's what God told them in Genesis 1:29: "Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food". We don’t know if the life fruit had seed in it. But nowhere does it say the life fruit was their normal food, and the consensus of SCHOLARS is that they never ate of it.
Hence the LORD God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
You have to be really insincere to read that statement and conclude it says they were already eating the fruit. We don’t know if their BODIES were immortal or to what extent. If it were physical death then Christ's work would have corrected it but it doesn't - what it corrects is spiritual death.

But beyond all these, using human logic, why would God put the knowledge tree in the garden in the first place?? Who can resist eating it for ETERNITY (assuming physical immortality)? Not only that, He also allowed Satan around to tempt the woman who wasn't around when the commandment was issued! It was Adam alone He gave the commandment, before Eve was created. (And when Eve ate the fruit Adam could see clearly she did not die😁). Not only that, once they ate the fruit why couldn't omnipotent God wipe their memory and restore them to mindlessness - the way He liked them?? Or destroy them and create new ones, minus tree?

Bottom line: don't reason these things with limited human reasoning!

MindHacker9009:


Your opinion is not based on critical analysis of the historical information we now have available other than the NT. The point I have been making is that Jesus christ is an invention of the Roman empire and was used as a psychological warfare and later as a political tool within the Roman empire and to the rest of the world where the Europeans have occupied.

Flavius Josephus in order to save his life had to switch to the side of the Roman empire, he was giving a place to stay in the palace of the Roman emperor and was made to write about the invented Jesus christ and the fake resurrection, to make it look like it is true because it's coming from a Jewish first century prophet and historian. But the truth is that Jews see him as a traitor that betrayed his own people.

There were other people called Jesus in the first century but the half man/ half god was an invention of the Roman empire. It was easy to invent a story of a fake virgin birth, a fake resurrection with all four stories contradicting themselves, fake accession. But it is impossible to fake the second coming even though all the prophecies of the invented Jesus christ came to pass in seventy AD when Jerusalem and the Temple in Jerusalem were destroyed. 
    
About the Torah you mentioned you can as well ask which Ifa or which Ogun, or which Shango, or which Olókun.

If you really want to understand how the Roman empire invented Jesus Christ then you need to watch this documentary: CAESAR'S MESSIAH: The Roman Conspiracy to Invent Jesus - OFFICIAL VERSION.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmEScIUcvz0

DaddyCoool:

It is out of pure frustration I said those words. Something you ought have rejected outright is what you entertained to the extent of actually deeming to believe it! Just start with: WHY would Rome write themselves down as the ones who killed the sinless messiah they invented??!
Read through stories in NT and mention for me an instant Rome was portrayed in good light.
Not to mention the powerful words of Christ himself or the extremely textured stories amd letters in the OT. Have you ever sat down and actually read the Bible? How can those words be about anyone trying to convince people NOT to rebel against Rome? If anything anyone who reads the stories would reject Rome and their god-emolperor!

As for YouTube, it is very easy to forget that ANYONE can post any idea on YouTube no matter how ridiculous (except explicit sex) and throw in deceptive logic, outright lies, and manipulated videos to support it.
If you watch YouTube enough you'd believe the earth is flat, Michelle and Kamala are men, Bill Gates is the devil, the moon-landing was a hoax, everybody taking covid vaccine would be dead in two years, etc. Because it is in visual form, it is very easy to forget that 90% of YouTube is misinformation. Which is why it is best you leave it alone. Get your information elsewhere.

Here's that my post again:
But the important question (which you dodged because you know you're talking nonsense) is, why would Rome let a Christ they invented transcend their own gods? They no longer believed the sun was god, nor Zeus, nor the emperor. Not only that, the emperor was now a lowly sinner headed to hell.
Also, this sinless Christ they invented was not crucified by their enemies but by they themselves! Not only that, all Christ-related stories put their country and leaders in bad light - not a single positive image of Rome in a story they invented! Those Romans must have really suddenly gone bananas😅!

Gabrielshow24:


You are missing the point. Like they say the best form of view is from above. Because from above you get a perfect outlook of things, a complete view not based on lateral perceptions. God made creation, man included; he wanted all of his handwork to dwell with him. Hence the repetitive emphasis across the bible for the gathering of all creation unto him. Irrespective of this zeal(interest) to have his children be with him. he gave them freewill. This freewill creates branches from the will(ideal) of God, some of these branches are fatal. Now a little thought, if God were to be Life and we are living because we have life(physical life) then if this life were to be taken away what becomes of you, dust!. So is the spiritual Life as many as are not joined or dwell with God will not partake of this Life and hence they die. Wisdom dictates that if you give a person free choice then you must have all the solutions to whatsoever decision that the person will choose. Because the more choices people have the worst they become some of these choices become counterintuitive. That solution is the Son(being joined to the son). That's why he is the tree of Life and we are grafted to it. So it doesn't matter what decisions you make as long as you are joined to this Tree😊 that's the point.

FxMasterz:

The Bible says in Genesis 1:26 - 28 that God gave the Dominion to Adam. He was given rule over all things. Adam was very knowledgeable in his glorious state. He was a prince in his own domain. Can we even start to teach you about these things also. They're clearly in the Bible. Adam gave names to everything on earth in one day and still could remember the name he gave to each and everything. That's super intelligence. Such intelligence is not available to us in our fallen state. Psalm 115:16 says God gave the earth to man. Man is not what man used to be at the beginning. It would be myopic of you to see man only as he is in his fallen state. Please take your Bible for yourself and read.

Hey! Who are you to say man couldn't rule when God gave the dominion of the whole earth to man? You don't actually know the scriptures. Did you answer the questions I asked you in my previous post? Answer them please.


My friend, when Scholars said they never ate of it, were they not adding to the Bible? Did the Bible ever say they never ate of it? Yet, you believed it without examination!

Did Eve not tell the serpent that they do eat of ALL the trees in the garden except that one in the middle of the garden that was banned?


The bolded in that scripture is the stated reason why God said the man has become like one of them - he now knows good and evil. Simple! Even Satan told them they'll become like God 'knowing good and evil.' Immortality is what they already had. The knowledge of good and evil was what they didn't have. And that was the only addition that made them become like God.

They now could die but a taste of the tree of life would restore eternal life. O man, "Death came into the world through the forbidden fruit." It was not originally in the world. That is why God will cast death to hell at the end of time.


Eve actually told the serpent they were eating all Fruits except the forbidden one. You have to be insincere to even say they never ate of the fruit of life which was given them by God to eat. Meanwhile they left that one and ate the forbidden one. Hen? This your theology sef, e get as e be.

Go read your Bible again!

My friend, God put the forbidden fruit in the garden because loyalty cannot be judged until it is tested. God wants to know that the man is truly obedient when he has the opportunity to disobey but yet, chooses to obey. That means he's not a zombie and his obedience to God is genuine. That's the kind of obedience God wants. Your obedience carries no weight when you do not have the opportunity to disobey.

DaddyCoool:


I'm just amazed you don't realize how CONVOLUTED you sound. You and that other guy saying Christ was a Roman invention.

Like I've said, people with "super intelligence" know they're naked when they are, and know the difference between good and bad!

Soo God wants to know that man was obedient (don't confuse with Peter Obi follower😁), and of all the millions of ways He could test it, it was a way that would irretrievably destroy man's innocence and immortality! And it wasn't that the tree was hard to reach. And it wasn't that they were left alone to see if they'll obey - nooo, extremely wise Satan whom they were "rulling over" was introduced to tempt them - not Adam who was given the commandment o, but Eve who wasn't even created yet! I wonder what Eve said to Adam b4 he also ate the fruit. Must have been something like "Adam, you slowpoke, you're naked!"😆

As for tree of life, God gave Adam and Eve characteristics of fruits they were to eat. There is no proof life fruit meet those characteristics. And it was in the middle of the garden right next to knowledge fruit for a reason. Anyway, people who spent their lives studying the Bible and pondering these things have concluded they did NOT eat it. Who are you?? And, no, they're NOT adding to the Bible - their conclusion is the conclusion any reasonable person will reach from the words.

As for immortality, please know the difference between extremely long life and immortality. God said they would die if they ate, but Adam lived about 1000 years. Maybe if they didn't eat they'd live to a million. But the question you haven't answered: what was the life tree doing there if they were created immortal?

What were your questions I didn't answer?

FxMasterz:


I don't think I'll like to drag this any further because you don't seem to grasp anything I said.

1. Adam was not naked! He was covered with God's glory. When he became naked after the glory departed, he knew it.

2. Being super intelligence does not mean you must know about the existence of evil.

3. Please tell the reason why God placed a forbidden tree in the garden if you have Devine revelation.

4. Give me proof that Adam didn't eat of the tree of life. No need to argue.


Man, I have been studying the Bible for over 30yrs. I am not a conventional Bible student who takes whatever I'm told without examining the facts.

If you think you have anything you want to say about the Bible contrary to what we can see in the Bible, then, let's begin.

Lucifyre:


At first when writing my previous comment when i said you move from conclusion to evidence i wanted to add that you're like someone who stumbled across some random youtube video but i thought it was condescending so i left it out. Unfortunately you've gone ahead to prove my thought right by actually citing a youtube source which is quite shallow for a source even if based on Atwill's work.

First of like i said earlier my position is not an opinion, its consensus fact, so it doesn't matter what some random online person says. Scholars way more knowledgeable than i'ld ever be, that have dedicated their lives to the study of the subject matter came to this conclusion and not even anytime recently. It's not a debated matter anymore by scholars. So when i hear people with this your theory i know, they haven't got a clue, no offense.

I've talked about this with an atheist on here as well and he too cited youtube sources which was really funny and I'm not even a theist. Reputable scholars like Bart Ehrman, Dale Allison, Maurice Casey and John Meier to name a few have rubbished this claim. Even mythicist scholars like Richard Carrier who don't believe Jesus existed have rubbished this particular roman claim from scholars like Joseph Atwill who i referenced in my prev comment that hold this view. And his case is way more put together than the shallow defense you put up here, sourced from some random youtube video with a similar title to Atwills book and likely based on his work. Like seriously who uses youtube as a source, you're not going to be taken seriously by anyone who knows what they're talking about be it theist/atheist or agnostic, in biblical history terms.

As for my Torah questions, i knew you didn't know what you were talking about ergo dodged giving responses. Like its funny, what original or fake Torah contains absolute differences in the content i mentioned about morals, extermely laughable to then suggest Christians changed it, besides the Torah is just the first five books of the Hebrew bible or Tanakh and not the whole thing like you allude to. That claim is basically nonsense as well. If you would like a reputable source to educate yourself i'll suggest Professor Hayes' "Introduction to the Old testament" course from the University of Yale.

MindHacker9009:


1. So to you no one two thousand years ago can invent their own stories and say it was inspired by God when only those at the top and those in the leadership circle could read and write.
On YouTube professionals present their facts and if possible their own evidence to support their claims and it's up to anyone else who does not agree to present their own facts to counter those presented.
Those who say on YouTube that the moon landing is fake includes those who worked on the moon landing project and scientists that have analysed the videos of the moon landing and presented their own findings to support their claim that it is fake.
You have no evidence to support your claim that the moon landing was true, you only believe what you were told just like you were told about the fake virgin birth, the fake resurrection and the fake ascension and you believed them like a kid so that you can you use it the scam those that are gullible.
I know it makes sense  to you when those who faked the moon landing say they have lost the technology that was used for the moon landing because nonsense like that is what makes sense to you.

2. If Nigeria should go and conquer Ghana and bring Ghanaians still holding on to their belief to Nigeria what stops the rulers in Nigeria from inventing a half man half God of the Ghanaians which becomes a combination of Ghana's belief in only one True God and an already belief in Nigeria of a man God and this is made the new official religion of Nigeria.

3. Even if Nigerian rulers today should make a new religion the official religion does that mean the rulers themselves are following the official religion or the official religion is just a political tool to control the people and unite the nation.

4. Why is the Bible copyrighted? If it only contains the inspired words of God, does that mean for the last two thousand years no one else has had any new inspiration from God that can be added to the Bible.

You lack the ability to reason critically that's why sensible stuff sounds like nonsense to you. 

FxMasterz:


Man, you do not know your Bible enough to even have said there is no where in the Bible where God referred to men as His sons.

I don't know where you see pride in all of these. You obviously don't understand that a child who knows his father is a king and that he has many servants is not necessarily a proud son.

I have shown you what the scriptures say. Infact Hebrews 1:14 says very clearly that angels are our servants. The Hebrew word translated angel in the Old testament 'Malakh' means messenger. The Greek word translated angels in the new testament is Angelos which also means messanger. You don't want to see things from God's perspective but only from what you think is right. That's not how to view scriptures. We must completely align with what the Word says and abide by it.

what do you mean God's perspective. When Jesus came to the world He met the pharisee and Sadducees they too believed according to scripture that they were upholding God's perspective but what did Jesus say of them? I can come and say to you that Tinubu's perspective is to make Nigeria great but is that the case? Everything were written by men and are subject to different perspectives that's why there are so many denominations each with it's own perspective infact there are so many religions with different concepts of God from their own perspective we are going to hell

Did God call men sons? You ignorantly said God never did. Now, take a look at these scriptures:

Exodus 4:22-23, "Then you shall say to Pharaoh, 'Thus says the Lord, "Israel is My son, My firstborn."'
The same way He said " I have called my son out of Egypt" everyone knows the person that very scripture refers to its all about the son God intended to make his son come from Israel so He using that doesn't negate the statement if you paid attention you will see I said apart from Jesus were else in the scripture, you can't find any. We are what we are because we are grafted to God(Jesus). That's all that matters




If Israel was God's first born, where are the angels? Second born? At least angels existed before men. So, who should be the firstborn. This shows you God had no sons until He created man.


This rhetoric is foolishness
, Israel was chosen as a firstborn among men,they were the first nations to bear God's name. It is a metaphor and has no business with Angels

In Luke 3:38, the genealogy was traced to Adam who was referred to as "the son of God."

By Moses🤔 and of course because he had no Father hence it becomes a prerogative that he was Fathered by God!

Should I bring you several others before you would believe?

Have you seen Hebrews 1:14?

Do you even know that the Bible says we would judge Angels? Please read your Bible and stop arguing.

The self same bible said we will judge the world hey look around you are you and I judging the world? Ask your self this question did Abraham pass judgement on Sodom or Gommorah? When he pleaded with God to save the Land if he found 5 men righteous. What then do you know of judgement? Do you think the judgement is like the one done by the judge? Get this right you are not the Judge then how can you give judgement? You pass judgement by influencing/advising/supplicating God regards that particular matter? That's why scriptures say that God doesn't hide his matters to his friends; He wants to hear of their opinion.

FxMasterz:


I don't think I'll like to drag this any further because you don't seem to grasp anything I said.

1. Adam was not naked! He was covered with God's glory. When he became naked after the glory departed, he knew it.

2. Being super intelligence does not mean you must know about the existence of evil.

3. Please tell the reason why God placed a forbidden tree in the garden if you have Devine revelation.

4. Give me proof that Adam didn't eat of the tree of life. No need to argue.


Man, I have been studying the Bible for over 30yrs. I am not a conventional Bible student who takes whatever I'm told without examining the facts.

If you think you have anything you want to say about the Bible contrary to what we can see in the Bible, then, let's begin.

MindHacker9009:


You are the one spewing out nonsense.

These are solid reasons the Roman empire invented Jesus christ:

1. Control over Jewish Messianic Expectations:
Purpose: To pacify Jewish rebellion and control the population by creating a messiah figure that would discourage violent uprisings and advocate for peace and obedience to Roman rule.
Theory: By crafting a messianic figure who promoted “turning the other cheek” and “rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar’s,” the Roman Empire could have sought to quell unrest in Judea, which was a hotspot of anti-Roman rebellion.
Support: Jesus’ teachings emphasize peace, non-violence, and submission to authority, which some theorists argue could have been designed to weaken resistance to Roman power.

2. Roman Elite Propaganda Tool:
Purpose: A tool of propaganda for consolidating power and controlling subject populations, especially the Jews and early Christians.
Theory: Some suggest that Roman elites or rulers (like the Flavian dynasty) invented or shaped the narrative of Jesus to unite the empire under one religion that promoted obedience to the Roman state.
Support: After the Jewish-Roman wars, the empire may have benefited from a unified religious narrative that discouraged insurrection and promoted unity across diverse populations.

3. Fusion of Pagan and Jewish Religious Traditions:
Purpose: To create a hybrid religion that would appeal to both Roman pagans and Jews, thereby unifying the empire religiously.
Theory: By incorporating elements of mystery religions (such as Mithraism) and Jewish monotheism, the figure of Jesus could have been created or reshaped to serve as a bridge between different cultures in the empire.
Support: Jesus’ story shares some parallels with earlier dying-and-rising god motifs found in various mythologies (e.g., Osiris, Dionysus), which could suggest a fusion of traditions.

4. Plausible Denial of Rebellion:
Purpose: To distract from the failed Jewish messiahs and other rebellious figures in history.
Theory: By creating a peaceful messiah figure, the Romans could have aimed to rewrite the history of Jewish rebellion, casting failed messianic leaders as false prophets while promoting the pacifistic Jesus as the true messiah.
Support: Jewish history during the period was filled with messianic claimants who led uprisings (e.g., Bar Kokhba). Jesus’ nonviolent message could have been a deliberate counter-narrative to prevent future revolts.

5. Influence of Roman Emperors and Flavian Dynasty:
Purpose: To support the deification of Roman emperors and align Christian beliefs with the emperor’s authority.
Theory: Some conspiracy theorists (e.g., Joseph Atwill’s Caesar’s Messiah) suggest that the Flavian emperors (particularly Vespasian and Titus) created Christianity as a means of controlling Jewish subjects and ensuring loyalty to Rome by creating a godlike figure (Jesus) that mirrored Roman emperor worship.
Support: According to Atwill and similar theorists, the Gospels were constructed by Roman authors who were commissioned by the Flavians. Allegedly, parallels between the Gospels and Roman imperial propaganda are seen as evidence of this.

6. Manipulation of Early Christian Texts:
Purpose: To ensure that the foundational Christian texts would align with Roman ideals and governance.
Theory: Roman authorities or influential leaders (possibly through Constantine’s later role in shaping the Christian canon) could have modified or guided the formation of the New Testament to align with Roman values, inserting themes of obedience and loyalty to the state.
Support: The Gospel accounts that advocate respect for secular authority and separation of religion from politics (e.g., “Render unto Caesar…”) could have been shaped to benefit Roman rule.

7. Mythological Foundation for the Roman State Religion:
Purpose: To create a unifying state religion centered on a savior figure.
Theory: In the process of transitioning from paganism to Christianity, the Roman Empire may have shaped the figure of Jesus as a necessary central figure to promote a new state religion that could unify the empire.
Support: By the time of Emperor Constantine in the 4th century, Christianity had become a state religion. Some theorists believe this was a calculated political move to consolidate power and legitimize the empire through a divine figure.

8. Censorship and Control of Historical Records:
Purpose: To control the historical narrative and suppress alternative accounts of Jewish history and resistance.
Theory: Roman authorities may have destroyed or suppressed texts that presented alternative messianic movements or portrayed Jesus as a different figure, leaving only the Roman-approved version of Christianity to survive.
Support: The lack of historical sources outside the Gospels that mention Jesus (particularly during his lifetime) is often cited by conspiracy theorists to suggest that his narrative was manufactured or heavily controlled.

9. Incorporation of Hellenistic and Roman Cultural Ideals:
Purpose: To blend Jewish theology with Hellenistic (Greek) and Roman cultural ideals, making Christianity more acceptable across the empire.
Theory: The life and teachings of Jesus could have been shaped to reflect broader Hellenistic values such as Stoicism, virtue, and moral integrity, combined with Roman ideals of loyalty to the state.
Support: Some scholars point to similarities between Jesus’ teachings and the philosophies of Hellenistic moral traditions, suggesting a possible Roman influence in shaping the figure of Christ.

10. Centralization of Religious Authority in Rome:
Purpose: To establish Rome as the religious center of a unified empire through Christianity.
Theory: The creation of a religion centered on Jesus, with Rome as its spiritual capital, may have been a calculated move to consolidate religious and political power under Roman authority.
Support: With the eventual rise of the papacy and the establishment of the Vatican, Rome became the heart of Christianity, which some believe was part of a long-term Roman strategy.

The concept of the Original Torah is to complex for you and is beyond your current level of understanding, which is why you cannot grasp the idea right now.
The version of the Torah found in the Old Testament is not represent the original Torah used in the First Temple period for several reasons, including the likelihood of later editing, the evolution of religious beliefs, the influence of the Babylonian exile, and the absence of a fully written or standardized text during the First Temple. The Torah, as presented in the Old Testament, reflects theological, legal, and narrative developments that occurred after the destruction of the First Temple, suggesting that the First Temple Torah may have been simpler, more diverse, and different in content and structure.

MindHacker9009:


You are the one spewing out nonsense.

These are solid reasons the Roman empire invented Jesus christ:

1. Control over Jewish Messianic Expectations:
Purpose: To pacify Jewish rebellion and control the population by creating a messiah figure that would discourage violent uprisings and advocate for peace and obedience to Roman rule.
Theory: By crafting a messianic figure who promoted “turning the other cheek” and “rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar’s,” the Roman Empire could have sought to quell unrest in Judea, which was a hotspot of anti-Roman rebellion.
Support: Jesus’ teachings emphasize peace, non-violence, and submission to authority, which some theorists argue could have been designed to weaken resistance to Roman power.

2. Roman Elite Propaganda Tool:
Purpose: A tool of propaganda for consolidating power and controlling subject populations, especially the Jews and early Christians.
Theory: Some suggest that Roman elites or rulers (like the Flavian dynasty) invented or shaped the narrative of Jesus to unite the empire under one religion that promoted obedience to the Roman state.
Support: After the Jewish-Roman wars, the empire may have benefited from a unified religious narrative that discouraged insurrection and promoted unity across diverse populations.

3. Fusion of Pagan and Jewish Religious Traditions:
Purpose: To create a hybrid religion that would appeal to both Roman pagans and Jews, thereby unifying the empire religiously.
Theory: By incorporating elements of mystery religions (such as Mithraism) and Jewish monotheism, the figure of Jesus could have been created or reshaped to serve as a bridge between different cultures in the empire.
Support: Jesus’ story shares some parallels with earlier dying-and-rising god motifs found in various mythologies (e.g., Osiris, Dionysus), which could suggest a fusion of traditions.

4. Plausible Denial of Rebellion:
Purpose: To distract from the failed Jewish messiahs and other rebellious figures in history.
Theory: By creating a peaceful messiah figure, the Romans could have aimed to rewrite the history of Jewish rebellion, casting failed messianic leaders as false prophets while promoting the pacifistic Jesus as the true messiah.
Support: Jewish history during the period was filled with messianic claimants who led uprisings (e.g., Bar Kokhba). Jesus’ nonviolent message could have been a deliberate counter-narrative to prevent future revolts.

5. Influence of Roman Emperors and Flavian Dynasty:
Purpose: To support the deification of Roman emperors and align Christian beliefs with the emperor’s authority.
Theory: Some conspiracy theorists (e.g., Joseph Atwill’s Caesar’s Messiah) suggest that the Flavian emperors (particularly Vespasian and Titus) created Christianity as a means of controlling Jewish subjects and ensuring loyalty to Rome by creating a godlike figure (Jesus) that mirrored Roman emperor worship.
Support: According to Atwill and similar theorists, the Gospels were constructed by Roman authors who were commissioned by the Flavians. Allegedly, parallels between the Gospels and Roman imperial propaganda are seen as evidence of this.

6. Manipulation of Early Christian Texts:
Purpose: To ensure that the foundational Christian texts would align with Roman ideals and governance.
Theory: Roman authorities or influential leaders (possibly through Constantine’s later role in shaping the Christian canon) could have modified or guided the formation of the New Testament to align with Roman values, inserting themes of obedience and loyalty to the state.
Support: The Gospel accounts that advocate respect for secular authority and separation of religion from politics (e.g., “Render unto Caesar…”) could have been shaped to benefit Roman rule.

7. Mythological Foundation for the Roman State Religion:
Purpose: To create a unifying state religion centered on a savior figure.
Theory: In the process of transitioning from paganism to Christianity, the Roman Empire may have shaped the figure of Jesus as a necessary central figure to promote a new state religion that could unify the empire.
Support: By the time of Emperor Constantine in the 4th century, Christianity had become a state religion. Some theorists believe this was a calculated political move to consolidate power and legitimize the empire through a divine figure.

8. Censorship and Control of Historical Records:
Purpose: To control the historical narrative and suppress alternative accounts of Jewish history and resistance.
Theory: Roman authorities may have destroyed or suppressed texts that presented alternative messianic movements or portrayed Jesus as a different figure, leaving only the Roman-approved version of Christianity to survive.
Support: The lack of historical sources outside the Gospels that mention Jesus (particularly during his lifetime) is often cited by conspiracy theorists to suggest that his narrative was manufactured or heavily controlled.

9. Incorporation of Hellenistic and Roman Cultural Ideals:
Purpose: To blend Jewish theology with Hellenistic (Greek) and Roman cultural ideals, making Christianity more acceptable across the empire.
Theory: The life and teachings of Jesus could have been shaped to reflect broader Hellenistic values such as Stoicism, virtue, and moral integrity, combined with Roman ideals of loyalty to the state.
Support: Some scholars point to similarities between Jesus’ teachings and the philosophies of Hellenistic moral traditions, suggesting a possible Roman influence in shaping the figure of Christ.

10. Centralization of Religious Authority in Rome:
Purpose: To establish Rome as the religious center of a unified empire through Christianity.
Theory: The creation of a religion centered on Jesus, with Rome as its spiritual capital, may have been a calculated move to consolidate religious and political power under Roman authority.
Support: With the eventual rise of the papacy and the establishment of the Vatican, Rome became the heart of Christianity, which some believe was part of a long-term Roman strategy.

The concept of the Original Torah is to complex for you and is beyond your current level of understanding, which is why you cannot grasp the idea right now.
The version of the Torah found in the Old Testament is not represent the original Torah used in the First Temple period for several reasons, including the likelihood of later editing, the evolution of religious beliefs, the influence of the Babylonian exile, and the absence of a fully written or standardized text during the First Temple. The Torah, as presented in the Old Testament, reflects theological, legal, and narrative developments that occurred after the destruction of the First Temple, suggesting that the First Temple Torah may have been simpler, more diverse, and different in content and structure.

DaddyCoool:


Your problem is that you don't ask FUNDAMENTAL questions. You start in the middle and write loong, rambling commentary.
WHICH IS WHY YOU HAVEN'T BEEN ABLE TO ANSWER MY QUESTIONS!!!

Moon landing. Here's the fundamental question you should have asked right away:
Russia was in breack-neck competition with US as to who'd first land on the moon. Russia had the technology to call out ANY cheating whatsoever by US and really shame the country. YET, when US said they've beaten USSR to the moon, they humbly accepted defeat. You don't think they made sure there was no iota of cheating b4 doing that??!
It was only years later that some conspiracy nut without Russia's technology came up with ridiculous "moon landing was a hoax" and of course rushed to YouTube!

Here's another example of fundamental question: why would ANYONE invent a 30-year-old messiah?? Why not a wise, old man with flowing white beard, which people will more readily respect and accept?!)