SNCOQ3:

I dey sir, thanks

**sorry Goshen360**

my oga, wetin be all this "sir" wey you dey use hail me na?

SNCOQ3: Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.
Gen 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

The bolded explains why we have rainfall, snow, thunderstorm...my brother "firmament" na sky with cloud

I agree with you what firmament means. What we are saying here is the proved of Gap theory which you supported and the pre-adamic world that happened between Genesis 1:1-2. I believe this is where your gap theory lies. This is what we want to focus on.

Goshen360:

I agree with you what firmament means. What we are saying here is the proved of Gap theory which you supported and the pre-adamic world that happened between Genesis 1:1-2. I believe this is where your gap theory lies. This is what we want to focus on.

* What i know about Gap theory is that their's a "gap" between Gen 1:1 - Gen 1:2. otherwise, how do you account for pre-historic creatures like dinasaurs


If you now agree that the "Heaven" in Gen 1:1 is not thesame as that of Gen 1:8, we can move on.

Mr_Anony:
my oga, wetin be all this "sir" wey you dey use hail me na?

"sir" na title oh! you dey trip me with your educative exchanges...even if you no want the title, my respect for u still solid.

SNCOQ3:

* What i know about Gap theory is that their's a "gap" between Gen 1:1 - Gen 1:2. otherwise, how do you account for pre-historic creatures like dinasaurs

All I want you to do is prove WITH SCRIPTURES that gap indeed exist between Gen.1:1 and Gen.1:2. When the language of time interval occurs in the OT, you will often read words such as, "in the process of time". By this, the scriptures intends a certain time interval but the bible doesn't say that in Gen. 1:1-2.

I, on the other hand intends to show/prove that gap didn't exist and the "without form and void"/darkness" in Genesis 1:2 is NOT as a result of divine judgment as a result of Lucifer's sin. All we have to do is use scripture to explain scriptures.

Goshen360:

All I want you to do is prove WITH SCRIPTURES that gap indeed exist between Gen.1:1 and Gen.1:2. When the language of time interval occurs in the OT, you will often read words such as, "in the process of time". By this, the scriptures intends a certain time interval but the bible doesn't say that in Gen. 1:1-2.

Perhaps, you have to prove the bolded is the case in all of the OT. if you want to depend on a "razor-sharp precision" of the English Language for "Word to Word" interpretation,then you're in for a long one. I am not a master of the english language but i know words are used interchangeably in the scriptures.

As for using the bible; That's exactly what i used to refute your attempt to equate the "Heavens" in Gen 1:1 and Gen1:8.

Goshen360:
I, on the other hand intends to show/prove that gap didn't exist and the "without form and void"/darkness" in Genesis 1:2 is NOT as a result of divine judgment as a result of Lucifer's sin. All we have to do is use scripture to explain scriptures.

you're yet to prove that 'gap' did not exist in Gen1:1-Gen1:2.

About Lucifer, we'll get to that.

pls, would you post the link on the one you had with Delafruita? I think i need to see it.

^^^
Okay let's get at it now. Let me start by showing "gap" did NOT exist between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2.

The bible says, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth".

This is an "OPENING" statement in which the rest of the creation account tells the "process" by which the heavens and the earth was created. How did I know this?

First, the heavens; note: it's in plural but some translations have it singular form - the plural form is most correct translations because if we take the singular form, it will mean the bible is referring to the heaven as in the abode place of God but since it is about the account of creation of "our" heavens, which man can explore, then the plural form makes most correct and because the same accounts later referred to two places heavens - the heaven called sky and the heaven where the sun, moon and stars were fixed. There is nowhere in the scriptures or Jesus ever making any reference to any gap in most of his reference to the beginning.

Genesis 1:2, "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

This verse describes the "CONDITION" of the earth (in water form) at its initial creation. The gap theory says the earth "became" without form and void due to Lucifer's sin and the earth was in chaotic state and divine judgment brought "darkness" that was upon the face of the earth. They use a verse from the book of Isaiah to justify their claim. When we get to the verse from Isaiah, we will see clearly that it wasn't the "intention" of God to leave the earth "formless and void or empty", he created it to be inhabited.

So where did darkness came from? was it as a result of judgment for Lucifer's sin? Certainly NOT. God himself gave us the answer where the darkness came from in the book of Job and darkness in this context does not signify judgment/evil, it is simply an absence of light. If darkness represents judgment or evil, one will expect God to simply judge that darkness/evil rather than saying "let there be light" in Gen 1:3. Psalms 104:19-24 teaches that darkness is not always a symbol of evil unless the context permits. In Genesis 1:2 that darkness is NOT as a result of divine judgment from Lucifer's sin but the was the way the earth was initially created and this we read in the book of Job 38:1,4-9 and emphasis on verse 9. This is the answer to the darkness in Genesis 1:2

Lastly, how did God removed the formlessness and the voidness/emptiness in Genesis 1:2 since we have seen how God removed the darkness. God worked through 6 days of creation to do that. In the first 3 days, what you see God do is GIVE "form" to remove the formlessness and in day 4-6, what you study is God "filled" in order to remove the voidness or emptiness.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I submit to you, there is no Gap whatsoever in between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 and we must reject such heresy.

^^^
What the heck is that ugly site you are adding to your quoting me?

SNCOQ3: pls, would you post the link on the one you had with Delafruita? I think i need to see it.

Click Here

^^^
Do you want to be reported to the moderators

Goshen360: ^^^
Do you want to be reported to the moderators

chill

Goshen360:

Click Here

Thanks for the link. I have to take a break until the thread is sanitized by a moderator. It makes me sick.

patriot2:
chill

Respect yourself or you will be reported and probably with a suggestion to be banned. We are not playing here. There is time for everything and besides, this is not the place for such dirty stuffs please. I have appealed to you in a reasonable way. Thank you.

SNCOQ3:

Thanks for the link. I have to take a break until the thread is sanitized by a moderator. It makes me sick.

Take your time bro....I will soon go off the computer also. We might need to continue tomorrow. Go take a rest and enjoy God's gift of sleep/rest in the body.

Goshen360:

Yes, the bible didn't tell the age of the earth. But it is more damaging that people say what the bible didn't say - talking about the gap theory and that the chaos and darkness in Genesis 1:2 was as a result of divine judgment when lucifer sinned and that is why we have God's creation only starting from Gen. 1:3. This is outright heresy and damaging to the scriptures. I want to prove line by line with scriptures that the darkness in Gen. 1:2 is NOT a divine judgment on the earth when lucifer sinned and there is NO gap whatsoever between Gen. 1:1-2.

You remember this thread came as a result of what Delafruita was doing in the other thread - spreading heresy using the bible. I only stand to defend the truth.

The gap theory is the missing link between science and the bible. God didn't create the world empty and chaotic . The world became void and chaotic.

Isaiah 45:18
The LORD created the heavens. God formed the earth and made it. He set it up. He did not create it to be empty but formed it to be inhabited. This is what the LORD says: I am the LORD, and there is no other.

The creation of genesis 1:1 was a full civilization. It only became waste ,void and empty by the judgement of God on that world. Jeremiah explains how it became void.

Jeremiah 4:23-26
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;and the heavens, and they had no light.24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,and all the hills moved lightly.25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,and all the birds of the heavens were fled.26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,and all the cities thereof were broken downat the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.

Lucifer (Satan) was the angelic ruler on the earth before the time of Adam. He fell from his position before Adam was created


Isaiah 14:12-14
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!13.For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven,I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. ,

His fall was due to his hunger to rule in heaven .

. . . . I will ascend into heaven,I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

He could only have desired to ascend to heave because his primary domain was earth. There was a heaven there was an earth before the time of Adam creation. This civilisation of lucifer must have been hundreds of millions of years . The earth is not 6,000 years old. Radio carbon dating proves the earth is millions of years old. Fossil evidence of. Pre historic animals

The key question we should ask ourselves with all honesty is . WHEN DID LUCIFER FALL.? Was it before the emergence of Adam or after the fall of Adam?

Joagbaje:

The gap theory is the missing link between science and the bible. God didn't create the world empty and chaotic . The world became void and chaotic.

Isaiah 45:18
The LORD created the heavens. God formed the earth and made it. He set it up. He did not create it to be empty but formed it to be inhabited. This is what the LORD says: I am the LORD, and there is no other.

The creation of genesis 1:1 was a full civilization. It only became waste ,void and empty by the judgement of God on that world. Jeremiah explains how it became void.

Jeremiah 4:23-26
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;and the heavens, and they had no light.24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,and all the hills moved lightly.25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,and all the birds of the heavens were fled.26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,and all the cities thereof were broken downat the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.

Lucifer (Satan) was the angelic ruler on the earth before the time of Adam. He fell from his position before Adam was created


Isaiah 14:12-14
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!13 For thou hast said in thine heart,

His fall was due to his hunger to rule in heaven .

. . . . I will ascend into heaven,I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

He could only have desired to ascend to heave because his primary domain was earth. There was a heaven there was an earth before the time of Adam creation. This civilisation of lucifer must have been hundreds of millions of years . The earth is not 6,000 years old. Radio carbon dating proves the earth is millions of years old. Fossil evidence of. Pre historic animals

Joagbaje again.....Please let us stop this habit of reading into the scripture what it does not say. Jeremiah 4 talks about a destruction yet to come and not one that has already happened.
Nothing that I have come across in the bible remotely suggests that Genesis 1:1 was a full civilization. Let's not use weird bible gymnastics to justify our theology.

SNCOQ3:

"sir" na title oh! you dey trip me with your educative exchanges...even if you no want the title, my respect for u still solid.

Thanks but please drop the title abeg, I am just a small boy.

Mr_Anony:

. Jeremiah 4 talks about a destruction yet to come and not one that has already happened.

Let's dwell on The portion I quoted. It refers to pre adamite world. Ask you a question , Is there ever going to be a time in future that the earth will become empty and void?

Nothing that I have come across in the bible remotely suggests that Genesis 1:1 was a full civilization. Let's not use weird bible gymnastics to justify our theology.

Another question. WHEN DID LUCIFER FALL? was it before Adam creation or after Adam was created ?

Goshen360:

^^^
What the heck is that ugly site you are adding to your quoting me?

Goshen360:

^^^
Do you want to be reported to the moderators

patriot2:

chill

Goshen360:

Respect yourself or you will be reported and probably with a suggestion to be banned.

We are not playing here.

There is time for everything and besides, this is not the place for such dirty stuffs please.

I have appealed to you in a reasonable way. Thank you.

@manmustwac

Thank you for checking and taking complete control of the situation

Joagbaje:

Let's dwell on The portion I quoted. It refers to pre adamite world. Ask you a question , Is there ever going to be a time in future that the earth will become empty and void?

To answer your question, let us read the passage in context:

Jeremiah 4:15-31.

15 A voice is announcing from Dan,
proclaiming disaster from the hills of Ephraim.

16 "Tell this to the nations,
proclaim concerning Jerusalem:
'A besieging army is coming from a distant land,
raising a war cry against the cities of Judah.

17 They surround her like men guarding a field,
because she has rebelled against me,'"
declares the Lord.

18 "Your own conduct and actions
have brought this on you.
This is your punishment.
How bitter it is!
How it pierces to the heart!"

19 Oh, my anguish, my anguish!
I writhe in pain.
Oh, the agony of my heart!
My heart pounds within me,
I cannot keep silent.
For I have heard the sound of the trumpet;
I have heard the battle cry.

20 Disaster follows disaster;
the whole land lies in ruins.
In an instant my tents are destroyed,
my shelter in a moment.

21 How long must I see the battle standard
and hear the sound of the trumpet?

22 "My people are fools;
they do not know me.
They are senseless children;
they have no understanding.
They are skilled in doing evil;
they know not how to do good."

23 I looked at the earth,
and it was formless and empty;
and at the heavens,
and their light was gone.

24 I looked at the mountains,
and they were quaking;
all the hills were swaying.

25 I looked, and there were no people;
every bird in the sky had flown away.

26 I looked, and the fruitful land was a desert;
all its towns lay in ruins
before the Lord, before his fierce anger.

27 This is what the Lord says:
"The whole land will be ruined,
though I will not destroy it completely.

28 Therefore the earth will mourn
and the heavens above grow dark,
because I have spoken and will not relent,
I have decided and will not turn back."

29 At the sound of horsemen and archers
every town takes to flight.
Some go into the thickets;
some climb up among the rocks.
All the towns are deserted;
no one lives in them.

30 What are you doing, you devastated one?
Why dress yourself in scarlet
and put on jewels of gold?
Why highlight your eyes with makeup?
You adorn yourself in vain.
Your lovers despise you;
they want to kill you.

31 I hear a cry as of a woman in labor,
a groan as of one bearing her first child—
the cry of Daughter Zion gasping for breath,
stretching out her hands and saying,
"Alas! I am fainting;
my life is given over to murderers."

Now please tell me honestly if this is prophecy or history

Another question. WHEN DID LUCIFER FALL? was it before Adam creation or after Adam was created ?

When did Lucifer fall? I don't know exactly when he fell but I'll agree with before the temptation of man.

Am with Jo here; check this out
"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." (Genesis 1:28).
Notice He says replenish? Dat means the earth was already populated prior to this

iheanyi4u: Am with Jo here; check this out
"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." (Genesis 1:28).
Notice He says replenish? Dat means the earth was already populated prior to this

You do realize that some versions use the word "fill" instead of "replenish" don't you?

Joagbaje:

Let's dwell on The portion I quoted.

It refers to pre adamite world.

Ask you a question ,

Is there ever going to be a time in future that the earth will become empty and void?

Another question.

WHEN DID LUCIFER FALL?

was it before Adam creation or after Adam was created ?

@Joagbaje

By the below admission, God created the earth to always be lived on

"For thus says the LORD that created the heavens;
God himself that formed the earth and made it; he has established it,
he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited:
I am the LORD; and there is none else"
- Isaiah 45:18 KJV

The second question should be re-constructed as

WHEN DID WAS LUCIFER FALL CREATED?

was it before Adam's creation or after Adam was created?

Which of the days?

"For in one place the Scriptures say,
⁶What are mere mortals that you should think about them,
or a son of man that you should care for him?

⁷Yet you made them only a little lower than the angels
and crowned them with glory and honor"
- Hebrews 2:6-7 NLT

Mr_Anony:
To answer your question, let us read the passage in context:

Jeremiah 4:15-31. . . . .

Now please tell me honestly if this is prophecy or history

I'm dwelling on the part that related to creation. It's not the whole of the passage that relates to it.. There are laws guiding prophecies. A passage may be talking about several issues at the same time. There is a law of foreshortening and law of double reference . Remember the bible wasn't divided into chapters and verses. The prophecies were one looooooong verse. But theologians broke it down the chapters to the best of their ability looking at the contex . So a chapter may contain several different issues that don't relate to each other. Prophecy can be like a dream . You saw yourself in a car then, suddenly it was a plane . You enter your house and it turned to be your secondary school class. It may not connect.

There are several prophecies on the same chapter that don't connect.

For example God gave a prophecy concerning Ephraim here if you read it from verse 1. But look at verse 11. Its talking about the church of Christ . Speaking in tongues. They don't connect.

Isaiah 28:10-13
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept;line upon line, line upon line;here a little, and there a little:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said,This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest;and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.13 But the word of the Lord was unto themprecept upon precept, precept upon precept;line upon line, line upon line;here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,and snared, and taken.

Imagine if I quote verse 11 relating it to the church then someone comes along and say " it's not about church ,it's about Epraim and he paste an entire chapter for me to prove his point. That's why I said you should dwell on the part I quoted. There will never be a time in history of life that the earth will be empty, it only happened once and that was in the time of lucifer flood.

Concernng the law of double reference . David prophesied some things which had to do with his enemies here .

Psalms 109:2
For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me:
they have spoken against me with a lying tongue..


But look at verse 8 . It's talking about Judas who betray Jesus.

Psalms 109:8
. . . .Let his days be few;and let another take his office.


If you try to reason with the whole chapter ,you will mess it up. look at its fulfillment

Acts 1:20
For it is written in the book of Psalms. . his bishoprick let another take.


These are some of the things considered in understanding prophecies. For the Jesremiah verse there will never be a fulfillment of it, because it took place in the time of lucifer reign . The earth will never be empty.

Jeremiah 4:23-26
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;and the heavens, and they had no light.24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,and all the hills moved lightly.25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,and all the birds of the heavens were fled.26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,and all the cities thereof were broken downat the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.

When did Lucifer fall? I don't know exactly when he fell but I'll agree with before the temptation of man.

If you agree with me that lucifer fell before the temptation of man. That settles the matter. Isaiah 14 has the answer. He was a ruler over people on the earth. There were nations. He wanted to ascend to heaven to be like God.

[Isaiah 14:12-14
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!13.For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven,I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. ,

Mr_Anony:
To answer your question, let us read the passage in context:

Jeremiah 4:15-31.

Now please tell me honestly if this is prophecy or history

The time-gap in Genesis was vaguely mentioned in Genesis 1:1-2 without much detail of it given anywhere in the rest of the book.

It is the bible's very first mystery,

which is the glory of God to conceal a thing:

but the honor of kings is to search out a matter

Prophecy or history?

Prophecy is not only about looking forward and seeing into the future,

it also, is about looking backward and seeing into the past.

Joagbaje:

I'm dwelling on the part that related to creation. It's not the whole of the passage that relates to it.. There are laws guiding prophecies. A passage may be talking about several issues at the same time. There is a law of foreshortening and law of double reference . Remember the bible wasn't divided into chapters and verses. The prophecies were one looooooong verse. But theologians broke it down the chapters to the best of their ability looking at the contex . So a chapter may contain several different issues that don't relate to each other. Prophecy can be like a dream . You saw yourself in a car then, suddenly it was a plane . You enter your house and it turned to be your secondary school class. It may not connect.

There are several prophecies on the same chapter that don't connect.

For example God gave a prophecy concerning Ephraim here if you read it from verse 1. But look at verse 11. Its talking about the church of Christ . Speaking in tongues. They don't connect.

Isaiah 28:10-13
For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept;line upon line, line upon line;here a little, and there a little:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said,This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest;and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.13 But the word of the Lord was unto themprecept upon precept, precept upon precept;line upon line, line upon line;here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken,and snared, and taken.

Imagine if I quote verse 11 relating it to the church then someone comes along and say " it's not about church ,it's about Epraim and he paste an entire chapter for me to prove his point. That's why I said you should dwell on the part I quoted. There will never be a time in history of life that the earth will be empty, it only happened once and that was in the time of lucifer flood.

Concernng the law of double reference . David prophesied some things which had to do with his enemies here .

Psalms 109:2
For the mouth of the wicked and the mouth of the deceitful are opened against me:
they have spoken against me with a lying tongue..


But look at verse 8 . It's talking about Judas who betray Jesus.

Psalms 109:8
. . . .Let his days be few;and let another take his office.


If you try to reason with the whole chapter ,you will mess it up. look at its fulfillment

Acts 1:20
For it is written in the book of Psalms. . his bishoprick let another take.


These are some of the things considered in understanding prophecies. For the Jesremiah verse there will never be a fulfillment of it, because it took place in the time of lucifer reign . The earth will never be empty.

Jeremiah 4:23-26
I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void;and the heavens, and they had no light.24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled,and all the hills moved lightly.25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man,and all the birds of the heavens were fled.26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness,and all the cities thereof were broken downat the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.

No my friend, you are clearly picking and choosing here. You are adapting scripture to fit your preconceived interpretation of it by lifting verses out of context.
The verses in Jeremiah 4 first starts by describing a desolation that is yet to come. As part of the description, Jeremiah uses the phrases "without form and void" you immediately lift those and adapt it to your theory. That is how not to study the bible. The same thing you have done in Isaiah 28. (Notice that Psalm 109 when read in context, still has a flowing message)

Now quite right, the bible use symbolism to relay a message but the message must still be sensible and clear enough for us to make associations. You don't jump from future tense to past tense to present tense cutting and stitching them all together just to form "prophecy"....That is not how to study the bible. That my brother is an exercise in confusing yourself.

If you agree with me that lucifer fell before the temptation of man. That settles the matter. Isaiah 14 has the answer. He was a ruler over people on the earth. There were nations. He wanted to ascend to heaven to be like God.

Isaiah 14:12-14
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!13 For thou hast said in thine heart,

You see here again, you are taking his verse both out of context and too literally. If you follow it strictly as you are trying to, then you must also admit that lucifer was a human king who rose from the earth into heaven from which he was now thrown into hell. This will immediately contradict the dragon from Revelations 12 who was thrown from Heaven to earth.

Symbolism is merely symbolism: don't pick and choose verses just to confirm a preconceived bias. That is poor scholarship.

danwo:

The time-gap in Genesis was vaguely mentioned in Genesis 1:1-2 without much detail of it given anywhere in the rest of the book.

It is the bible's very first mystery,

which is the glory of God to conceal a thing:

but the honor of kings is to search out a matter

Prophecy or history?

Prophecy is not only about looking forward and seeing into the future,

it also, is about looking backward and seeing into the past.

There is a huge difference between speculating and prophesying

Mr_Anony: @Goshen et al, The bible says nothing about the age of the earth. It is people who calculate it counting from the genealogies from Adam.

Have you ever considered this: Assuming we didn't have the old testament i.e. the books of the old testament were lost to us and all we had as the beginning was John 1:1, we would probably have been here arguing how the world couldn't have been much older than 2000 years old. Think about that for a minute if you may.

Are you trying to say that following genealogy is wrong? The genealogy is directly sequential no?