SNCOQ3: ^ Fair enough.
On a second thought, I think it noteworthy that God mentioned 'Leviathan and Behemoth' to Job ( Post-Noah).

Goshen360: Bonjour mes chers amis,

@ SNCOQ3, Delafruita, Joagbaje and danwo

My other Two questions to the "gap" theory teachers:

1. About the dinosaurs, are you guys insinuating that these dinosaurs were not destroyed during the flood of Noah?

2. If you say "gap" existed between the first two verse of scriptures and there was a pre-adamic world, will you then agree or mean that Genesis itself does not account for the beginning of the creation?

I just woke up and will go through your other comments before these questions of mine. Thank you.

Goshen360:

1.About the dinosaurs, are you guys insinuating that these dinosaurs were not destroyed during the flood of Noah?

Goshen360:

2.If you say "gap" existed between the first two verse of scriptures and there was a pre-adamic world,

will you then agree or mean that Genesis itself does not account for the beginning of the creation?

Goshen360:

@ danwo, mon cher frère

You are missing the point here my brother. What you and other brothers are doing is that, you are trying to use science or scientific knowledge to interpret or approve the bible BUT what you end up doing is disapprove the bible with scientific knowledge or whatever extra-biblical knowledge you may have which I "might" not. This is contrary to the concept of biblical interpretation, (permit me to say).

Now, here is the point am making!

The confusion in Genesis 1:1-2 is similar to Chapter 1 and 2 where it records two creation account. Some confuse chapter 2 as a different creation account different from that chapter 1. Unknown to them, they can't see that they simply compliments each other.

Now, this is the point am making (without using extra-biblical source or any scientific proof), Genesis 1:1 is NOT in a "definite" state as in, it doesn't mean a finished and done deal creation of heaven and earth but it is an opening statement in which other verses tells how (process) the "heavens and earth" of Genesis 1:1 was accomplished. How did I come to this conclusion?

1. If it was a completed and already created "earth and heavens", God will NOT come back to call the firmament which was created/made from waters, HEAVEN.

2. The same way, God will NOT come back and name the dry land EARTH should it have been already created in Genesis 1:1

3. The Gap theory will NOT end up in anything other than RE-CREATION instead of what we see all over that it wasn't "RE-CREATION but "CREATED, MADE and FORMED"

4. The earth with the Gap theory will also end up saying (by assumption, not scripture interpreting scriptures) that, the earth "BECAME" formless and void BUT God Himself said in Job 38 that He creadted the darkness and the condition of the earth that way.

5. The book of Jeremiah says, it (earth) "WAS" not "BECAME" void/formeless.

6. The Gap theory will also end up saying that Genesis itself did NOT account for the ORIGINAL CRAETION should there be gap and a pre-adamic world before this creation account.

Who then are we supposed to beleive? The word of God or extra-biblical account?

Goshen360: @ danwo, mon cher frère

You are missing the point here my brother. What you and other brothers are doing is that, you are trying to use science or scientific knowledge to interpret or approve the bible BUT what you end up doing is disapprove the bible with scientific knowledge or whatever extra-biblical knowledge you may have which I "might" not. This is contrary to the concept of biblical interpretation, (permit me to say).

Now, here is the point am making!

The confusion in Genesis 1:1-2 is similar to Chapter 1 and 2 where it records two creation account. Some confuse chapter 2 as a different creation account different from that chapter 1. Unknown to them, they can't see that they simply compliments each other.

Now, this is the point am making (without using extra-biblical source or any scientific proof), Genesis 1:1 is NOT in a "definite" state as in, it doesn't mean a finished and done deal creation of heaven and earth but it is an opening statement in which other verses tells how (process) the "heavens and earth" of Genesis 1:1 was accomplished. How did I come to this conclusion?

1. If it was a completed and already created "earth and heavens", God will NOT come back to call the firmament which was created/made from waters, HEAVEN.

2. The same way, God will NOT come back and name the dry land EARTH should it have been already created in Genesis 1:1

3. The Gap theory will NOT end up in anything other than RE-CREATION instead of what we see all over that it wasn't "RE-CREATION but "CREATED, MADE and FORMED"

4. The earth with the Gap theory will also end up saying (by assumption, not scripture interpreting scriptures) that, the earth "BECAME" formless and void BUT God Himself said in Job 38 that He creadted the darkness and the condition of the earth that way.

5. The book of Jeremiah says, it (earth) "WAS" not "BECAME" void/formeless.

6. The Gap theory will also end up saying that Genesis itself did NOT account for the ORIGINAL CRAETION should there be gap and a pre-adamic world before this creation account.

Who then are we supposed to beleive? The word of God or extra-biblical account?

Mr_Anony: @Goshen et al, The bible says nothing about the age of the earth. It is people who calculate it counting from the genealogies from Adam.

Have you ever considered this: Assuming we didn't have the old testament i.e. the books of the old testament were lost to us and all we had as the beginning was John 1:1, we would probably have been here arguing how the world couldn't have been much older than 2000 years old. Think about that for a minute if you may.

Goshen360:

danwo, mon frère,

Weekends are always busy for me. Please permit me. I should answer according on Monday. Thanks.

Joagbaje:
. . .
Lucifer (Satan) was the angelic ruler on the earth before the time of Adam. He fell from his position before Adam was created

Hebrew OT: BHS Consonants & Vowels Transliterated:
1 be·re·shit ba·ra e·lo·him et ha·sha·ma·yim ve·'et ha·'a·retz. 2 ve·ha·'a·retz ha·ye·tah to·hu va·vo·hu ve·cho·shech al-pe·nei te·ho·vm ve·ru·ach e·lo·him me·ra·che·fet al-pe·nei ham·ma·yim.

aletheia:

Satan did not fall before the creation of Adam. This point has been addressed elsewhere in the past.

---

. . . There was a time when I believed the gap theory just like you but Exodus 20:11 shattered that illusion . . .

aletheia:

Problems with the gap theory:

1. It is inconsistent with God creating everything in six days, as Scripture states.

Exodus 20:11 says, “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy”. Thus, the creation of the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1) and the sea and all that is in them (the rest of creation) was completed in six days.

Where is there time for a gap?

2. It puts death, disease, and suffering before the Fall, contrary to Scripture.

From Romans 5:12, “Therefore, even as through one man [Adam] sin entered the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as have sinned,” we understand that there could not have been human sin or death before Adam.

The Bible teaches (1 Corinthians 15) that Adam was the first man,

and as a result of his rebellion (sin), death and corruption (disease, bloodshed, and suffering) entered the universe.

Before Adam sinned there could not have been any animal or human death.

Note also that there could not have been a race of men before Adam that died in “Lucifer's flood”

because 1 Corinthians 15:45 tells us that Adam was the “first” man.

aletheia:


We must also understand that if Satan sinned and fell before Adam was created. . .

that would mean that Creation was already marred since sin would then be already present on day six and thus God would not have said this:

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."

But since at the end of the sixth day it was very good. . .

then we know that Satan hadn't fallen then and there was no sin any where in all of creation.

aletheia:
Satan did not fall before the creation of Adam. This point has been addressed elsewhere in the past.

---

. . .There was a time when I believed the gap theory just like you but Exodus 20:11 shattered that illusion. . .

[center]Was or Became[/center]


"Gappists" translate “the earth was without form and empty” as “the earth became [or, ‘had become’] without form and empty.” At stake is the translation of the Hebrew word hayetah (a form of the Hebrew verb, hayah, “to be”).
The meaning of a word is controlled by its context, and verse 2 is circumstantial to verse 1. Thus, “was” is the most natural and appropriate translation for hayetah. It is rendered this way in almost all English versions (as well as the Septuagint). Furthermore, in Genesis 1:2 hayetah [/i]is not followed by the preposition [i]le, which would have removed any ambiguity in the Hebrew and required the translation “became.”

[center]Problems with the gap theory:[/center]

1. It is inconsistent with God creating everything in six days, as Scripture states.

Exodus 20:11 says, “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy”. Thus, the creation of the heavens and the earth (Genesis 1:1) and the sea and all that is in them (the rest of creation) was completed in six days. Where is there time for a gap?

2. It puts death, disease, and suffering before the Fall, contrary to Scripture.

From Romans 5:12, “Therefore, even as through one man [Adam] sin entered the world, and death by sin, and so death passed on all men inasmuch as have sinned,” we understand that there could not have been human sin or death before Adam. The Bible teaches (1 Corinthians 15) that Adam was the first man, and as a result of his rebellion (sin), death and corruption (disease, bloodshed, and suffering) entered the universe. Before Adam sinned there could not have been any animal or human death. Note also that there could not have been a race of men before Adam that died in “Lucifer's flood” because 1 Corinthians 15:45 tells us that Adam was the “first” man.

Romans 8:22 teaches us that “we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now.” Clearly the whole of creation was, and is, subject to decay and corruption because of sin. The fossil record shows disease, decay, and death. When gap theorists believe that disease, decay, and death existed before Adam sinned, they ignore that this contradicts the teaching of Scripture.

Most importantly, the gap theory undermines the gospel at its foundations.

By accepting an ancient age for the earth (based on the standard uniformitarian interpretation of the geologic column), gap theorists leave the evolutionary system intact (which by their own assumptions they oppose).

Even worse, they must also theorize that Romans 5:12 and Genesis 3:3 refer only to spiritual death. But this contradicts other Scriptures (1 Corinthians 15; Genesis 3:22-23). These passages tell us that Adam's sin led to physical death as well as spiritual death. In 1 Corinthians 15 the death of the last Adam (the Lord Jesus Christ) is compared with the death of the first Adam. Jesus suffered physical death for man's sin, because Adam, the first man, died physically because of sin. Genesis 3:22-23 tells us that if Adam and Eve could have partaken of the fruit of the Tree of Life, they would have lived forever, but God decreed that they should die physically because of their sin.

The gap (or “ruin-reconstruction”) theory is based on a very tenuous interpretation of Scripture.

[center]The Straightforward Meaning of Genesis 1:1-2[/center]

The gap (or “ruin-reconstruction”) theory is based on a very tenuous interpretation of Scripture.

The simple, straightforward meaning of Genesis 1:1-2 is that when God at the beginning created the earth it was initially formless, empty, and dark, and God's Spirit was there above the waters. It was through His creative energy that the world was then progressively “formed and filled” during the remaining six days of creation.

Consider the analogy of a potter making a vase. The first thing he does is get a ball of clay. What he has is good, but it is unformed. Next, he shapes it into a vase, using his potter's wheel. Now it is no longer formless. He then might dry it, apply glaze, and fire it. Now it is ready to be filled—with flowers and water. At no time could one of the stages be considered evil or bad. It was just not finished—unformed (without form) and unfilled (void). When it was finally formed and filled, it could be described as “very good.”

God, of course, did not have to take six days to create everything, but he did this deliberately as a pattern for us—for our seven-day week.

You can follow up on this here

---

We must also understand that if Satan sinned and fell before Adam was created. . .that would mean that Creation was already marred since sin would then be already present on day six and thus God would not have said this: "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."

But since at the end of the sixth day it was very good. . .then we know that Satan hadn't fallen then and there was no sin any where in all of creation.

Threads which previously discussed some of these views:
Was There A World Before Genesis 1?
How Long Did Adam & Eve Live In The Garden Of Eden?

danwo:

^^^^

If you are shown another scripture would the allegiance change, again?



^^^

There are no problems with the gap theory.

The "Gap Theory" poses no threat to the 6 days of creation

The 6 days of creation is the creation of the Adam world ; humankind world

The new physical world was created in 6 days for Man using earth, its surroundings etc.


"Where is there time for a gap?" you asked

The time for the gap is before time started ticking in Genesis 1:3

With all due respects, my dear sire, you err awfully, because before Adam, there was death.

God promised Adam death, God guaranteed Adam death, literally

The bible even says the "wages of sin is death"

The money paid for sin, death, the reward for sin was in the "safe"

kept for a rainy day or a day such as when sin is committed

When that singular command was violated/broken

death which was alive but dormant got activated.

DEATH reared its ugly head and entered the world

Therefore, as by one man sin entered into the world,
and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men,
for that all have sinned:

- Roman 5:12 KJV

So before Adam was, there was death of animals, there was death of some other kind(s)

The diseases etc too that you mentioned though unfortunate & unpleasant

are the consequences or aftereffects of a ground that is cursed
(i.e. the aftermath of a cursed ground)


You are right about "there could not have been a race of men before Adam that died in “Lucifer's flood”

Right in the sense that Adam was the first man or human being and so no human beings died in the “Lucifer's flood”

The fact remains that the earth and world at that time got destroyed when a flood covered the earth

not covering the highest mountains as in Noah's Flood but like in the state captured from Genesis 1:2 onwards



^^^^^

At Genesis 1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."

Before the above there were five " . . . and God saw that it was good" for creation but that qualifier eluded Man

Collectively every thing as a whole was good. Individually, man? Erm?

God must have known something about Man for Him to hold back appending the qualifier after the creation of man as did with other creations

Satan did not fall before the creation of Adam. This point has been addressed elsewhere in the past.

debosky: @ alethia
Without being told when this fall occurred, I don't see how you can make such a categorical statement.

debosky: . . .others may say it had to have happened before the creation of Adam because the bible doesn't record the creation of angels, the elders, etc. within the 6 day creation account, which is focused on the 'physical' creation as it were, not principalities, dominions, etc.

aletheia:

The Bible is actually quite unambiguously categorical about this:
Exodus 20:11 says, “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.

"All that is in them (the heavens and the earth, the sea etc)" is the Universal Set of all created beings i.e. angels, the elders, principalities, dominions, etc.

aletheia:
Because the account in Genesis is logical, consistent and ordered. . .

1. If Satan sinned and fell before Adam was created. . .
2. That would mean that Creation was already marred and blighted since sin would then be already present on day six

3. And God would not have said this: "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good."

4. But since at the end of the sixth day, God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good., we know at least that at the time Adam was created, there was no sin or imperfection present in creation.

I think the difference in our positions is in what we think the phrase "every thing that he had made" refers to. I believe this refers to the heavens and the earth and all that is in them because the verse immediately following says: "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them."
All the host of them is synonymous for heavenly host. . .which is a term for angels and the like, cf. Luke 2:13: And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying. . .

debosky: @ alethia



Without being told when this fall occurred, I don't see how you can make such a categorical statement. Furthermore, the bible doesn't even state when the angels were created, so again I fail to see how you can reach this categorical conclusion.

You may say that there is no evidence supporting the fall before the creation of Adam, but that is all that can be said on the matter - others may say it had to have happened before the creation of Adam because the bible doesn't record the creation of angels, the elders, etc. within the 6 day creation account, which is focused on the 'physical' creation as it were, not principalities, dominions, etc.

If the bible is not categorical this subject, I don't see how you can be.

PS - this isn't support for the gap theory in the least, it's simply a recognition that the bible is silent on certain things.

Mr_Anony:
@debosky, I think we can rightfully make the connection. If it was indeed the devil that deceived Eve in the garden, then we can be sure that the devil fell before Eve or at least before the temptation.

Second thing we can be sure of is that the devil had not fallen at the point of the creation of man, else God would not have seen the creation as good since the fall of lucifer would have sullied it.

Therefore, we know that lucifer must have fallen sometime between the end of creation and the temptation in the garden of Eden.

Goshen360:

@ danwo and other gap/pre-adamic teachers,

First @ danwo, I will come back to address your question because I am beginning to see we are dragging this topic "out of context"

Second, @ danwo and other gap/pre-adamic teachers,

On what basis of scripture is the Gap/pre-adamic world taught?

If it is on the basis of Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 (which I believe it is),

then let us stay within the context AND other bible verse being used to support Genesis 1:1-2.

This will help us clearer on this subject rather than going in circle.....

let's have bible-to-bible proving of what we are teaching.

I have seen the where the confusion lies and God is not the author of confusion.
If we can focus on the text that generates the confusion and arguments,

then we can solve the problem of weather is gap/pre-adamic world or not, as we can prove all things.

The problem is, some of the controversy concerning the subject of Creation centers on the translation and grammatical import of Genesis 1:1.

Scholars argue, “Is Genesis 1:1 in the absolute state (i.e., an independent clause) or in the construct state (i.e., a dependent clause)?”

Even Hebrew scholars are unable to agree BUT we can prove this truth, using scriptures to explain scripture.

danwo:

@Goshen360

When the difference between earth and world is recognised

the coffee would have been smelt

Think outside the box, man!

God created an Adam world; a world for human beings on Earth.

My mouth laughs when anti-Gap theorists claim that God created things that are seen and physical only

God in that six days of creation created both seen and unseen things, both physical and unphysical things

This is where the world comes in. God created an Adam world with no sin

The earth is just a formal name of the world which we live on

That world is everything on earth, seen and unseen and created by God.

"Welcome to my world" - that is a familiar phrase isnt it?

With a helping hand from the serpent, Man has since perverted that world

The earth is the Lord's and its fullnes thereof though the devil currently is the prince of this world

The world is now plagued with a degrading way of life, abuse of money, power show, unethical human beings etc

"Don't copy the behavior and customs of this world,
but let God transform you into a new person by changing the way you think.
Then you will learn to know God's will for you, which is good and pleasing and perfect."
- Romans 12:2 NLT

The Gap Theory poses no danger, once you know how far from the edge of the cliff to go

It does not threaten or question the six days of creation narrated from Genesis 1:3 onwards

The gap theory is not only on the basis of Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2 alone.

There are other scriptures hinting the Gap theory

The player saves the trump card until end, saves the best, for last.

Bottom line once the Greek to English translations, Hebrew to English translations are properly researched

Once the etymology of the certain Hebrew and Greek words used around this subject and related subjects are studied

then it will be relaised that there is no cause for panic

The gap theory complements the six days creation without any detraction

"Bring the whole tithe in to the storehouse . . ."
- Malachi 3:10

from the above verse, what actually was a storehouse was startling or shocking revelation for some die-hard tithe fanatics.

Goshen360:

^^^

Okay my brother,

The first thing first, I know and see where the issue is coming from. We will soon get there......permit me some little more time.

1. What do you understand of the scripture for Genesis 1:1?

2. What "heaven(s)" is Genesis 1:1 referring to?

3. What "earth" is Genesis 1:1 also referring to?

danwo:


>>[/b] Exactly what is states that in the beginning God created the heaven and the earth

2. What "heaven(s)" is Genesis 1:1 referring to?

>> The first generation Heaven; Heaven 1.0

3. What "earth" is Genesis 1:1 also referring to?

>> There is only one earth and the earth referred to in Genesis 1.1, is the same earth in Genesis 1:3 onwards

Mr_Anony:
@debosky, I think we can rightfully make the connection. If it was indeed the devil that deceived Eve in the garden, then we can be sure that the devil fell before Eve or at least before the temptation.

Therefore, we know that lucifer must have fallen sometime between the end of creation and the temptation in the garden of Eden.

Second thing we can be sure of is that the devil had not fallen at the point of the creation of man, else God would not have seen the creation as good since the fall of lucifer would have sullied it.