true2god: Ignorace? Do u knw the meaning? I hav studied with JW and i believed u knw im not ignorant.

U r just kidding here.

E vex you? ok pardon moi haha...
But you have not don anything with those verses i presented to our broda Chukwudi44, and Frosbel. Dont you imagine who this powerful angel the bears God`s name was? In the OT he called Himself <Wonderful> and Isaiah told us a child will be born, and that He will be called <wonderful> We kw this is Christ, now are two bearing this name? i will reqoute you these scriptures so u can help us out. Who was this ANGEL Yahweh sent and gave him authourity not to pardon the Israelites if they transsgresse during the crossing from Egypt?. My arguement is not from the JW`s view. I find out from the Scripture that, Christ existed before He was born. And the Scripture did not teach in the OT or NT two <2> GOD but one. So, What did Christ existed as, when he was with Yahweh? is He not that great ★Angel★ the OT has been pointing at? {Angel} of ☆YAHWEH`s☆ presence that saved, redeemed Israel. bear in mind, i reapeat, i`m not here to defend any church doctrine, i just find out some biblical passages that needs to be treated. I was glad when this thread was raised. so can you start with just this few questions,i will have more scripture to show you, and how Christ will again bear a new name that no one knows only Him. Thank you.

free123: doctrine is one tough thing to deal with. Being known to always change ones belief is one reason i cant join issues with JW. What exactly will become of these fellas when some kind of light gets brighter and the whole belief system is changed?
The lenghth some JW can go to defend manmade doctrine is quite amazing forgeting that their light may get brighter tomorrow and their belief today becomes a sin. What kind of light is this that can never be brightest? Certainly not the light from God.

Thanks for contributing, but you should have known right from the beginning of the thread that its not all about the JW, the scriptures i presented are not JW scriptures. so please, can you help bro..true2god by clearing those scriptures? Execep you want to tell us that Jesus existed as God before He was born just like the Catholics would made us believe that Almighty★Yahweh★ has a mother. This made them have two Yahweh. But When Christ came, He was very cleared. He has a God who is also our God. So tell us, what was Jesus before He was born. don`t you think those verses refferred to him as that Angel? if no, then who is this Angel these verses referred to?

Ubenedictus: hahaha, are u angry?? Hahaha, u did d same thing so post ago and u were very happy to do it, d post has abt 3 likes now u are condeming someone 4 doing the same!
Hypocrisy,

Is @truthislight a JW? NL una tough ooo

free123:
how can u see d value when u have been blindfolded by JW sect? did u truncate d book of Hebrews from ur bible as u did to other verses that expose ur falsehood? can u for once think outside what u have been fed in JW? Is there any where in d bible that Jesus is called Angel Michael? Is there anywhere that angels are told to worship Jesus? Is Jesus called God in ur own bible? Did Michael create d universe? do u worship angels? what does d bible say about worshipping angels?

if God Almighty is our Saviour and Jesus also our Saviour - showing their oneness; what made u leave this issue to stick to calling Jesus angel Michael because He will be coming with an arch angels voice? Is Michael d only arch angel?

In fact joining issues with u is an effort in futility.

Hebrew 1 has a strong value, i believe all scripture is valid. So go back to the OT, you will know what Christ was refferred to before he came to earth. the activities, roles played by this unique Angel, the names he was called before and after points to our Lord Jesus.

true2god: No one is havin any pain here. No one will either buy ur Jesus christ the angel Michael idea from ur watchtower magazine, not from the Bible.

Think for ursef once and stop dependin on evry hand-out given to u by JW, whether true or false. Its a pity that if Jw tomorrow tells u dat Jesus is no longer angel michael but someone else u will equally change belief.

Jw as a sect is satanic who comes in sheep clothing but is a ravellin wolve and its unfortunate u'v gone too deep to see anythin wrong with a false xtain cult.

Hav u seen watchtower magazine criticizng the church of the latter-day saint (mormonism), the grail, eckancker? No. They all belong to the same cult but in a slightly differnt dimension.

I'm not lettin u understand the dangers in Jw, cos u hav had enof exposure on it, but for others who might come across this thread as a novice in their activity. JW is not a xtain organization but a cult hidin under the umbrella of xtainity.

how can we take you seriously when you dont even know what the bible says on issues?

You just said some post ago that you will judge archangel michael that drove God's enemy satan away from heaven. Rev. 12:7

you dont know your left from your right.

Read your bible.

This is a bible discuss.

How can you be able to help others when you dont know you left from your right?

Am tired of this circle of childs play with you.

Y

free123:
how can u see d value when u have been blindfolded by JW sect? did u truncate d book of Hebrews from ur bible as u did to other verses that expose ur falsehood? can u for once think outside what u have been fed in JW? Is there any where in d bible that Jesus is called Angel Michael? Is there anywhere that angels are told to worship Jesus? Is Jesus called God in ur own bible? Did Michael create d universe? do u worship angels? what does d bible say about worshipping angels?

if God Almighty is our Saviour and Jesus also our Saviour - showing their oneness; what made u leave this issue to stick to calling Jesus angel Michael because He will be coming with an arch angels voice? Is Michael d only arch angel?

In fact joining issues with u is an effort in futility.

^^^
did you read this thread from the start?

Hebrews out of context issue again.

But satan is an angel but is called "the God of this world"(system of things) at 2cor. 4:4.

Even men are also refered to as a god in the bible.

The word god is a title that is given to entity that receives worshipful honour.

Even if you worship a stone it will automatically attain the title God.

This are issues that have been addressed already on this thread, go read it up and fault it if you want and come back then we can give a reply.

I cant be going in circles.

truthislight:

if he had even quoted the Hebrews, that singular scripture that all of you take out of context for your theology, at least he would have made a contribution to the thread.

But like you can see, he did not, but started making irrelevant statement.

But then, how can you all take only one scripture out of context and build a theology with it and turn a blind eye to all the other thousands of other scriptures asking for recognition?

Then you still imagined you are doing the right thing.

it isn't turning a blind eye to anything, it simply mean that on the bases of heb 1, and d fact that d archangel theory can't be found in xtian theology d said theory by that fact is a new human invention that contradicts the word of God. It simply mean the lens u used wen read wat u consider pro archangel is not used by me.
Alas i have decided to refrain from hot debates becos they are of no spiritual benefit to me, for that reason, i would rather be passive of dis thread!

truthislight:





by simply calling "angel michael" instead of "arch angel michael" goes a long way to show that you are just being emotional here.

The issue is with the context "arch angel"

and there is only one of such in the bible.
Peace

an arch angel is an angel!

truthislight:

^^^
did you read this thread from the start?

Hebrews out of context issue again.

But satan is an angel but is called "the God of this world"(system of things) at 2cor. 4:4.

Even men are also refered to as a god in the bible.

The word god is a title that is given to entity that receives worshipful honour.

Even if you worship a stone it will automatically attain the title God.

This are issues that have been addressed already on this thread, go read it up and fault it if you want and come back then we can give a reply.

I cant be going in circles.

u have repeated 1 post a thousand times, are u ok? Or are u spaming d thread?

plappville:

Is @truthislight a JW? NL una tough ooo

ask her d kweshun

free123:
how can u see d value when u have been blindfolded by JW sect? did u truncate d book of Hebrews from ur bible as u did to other verses that expose ur falsehood? can u for once think outside what u have been fed in JW? Is there any where in d bible that Jesus is called Angel Michael? Is there anywhere that angels are told to worship Jesus? Is Jesus called God in ur own bible? Did Michael create d universe? do u worship angels? what does d bible say about worshipping angels?

if God Almighty is our Saviour and Jesus also our Saviour - showing their oneness; what made u leave this issue to stick to calling Jesus angel Michael because He will be coming with an arch angels voice? Is Michael d only arch angel?

In fact joining issues with u is an effort in futility.

^^^
did you read this thread from the start?

Hebrews out of context issue again.

But satan is an angel but is called "the God of this world"(system of things) at 2cor. 4:4.

Even men are also refered to as a god in the bible.

The word god is a title that is given to entity that receives worshipful honour.

Even if you worship a stone it will automatically attain the title God.

This are issues that have been addressed already on this thread, go read it up and fault it if you want and come back then we can give a reply.

I cant be going in circles.

free123

free123: doctrine is one tough thing to deal with. Being known to always change ones belief is one reason i cant join issues with JW. What exactly will become of these fellas when some kind of light gets brighter and the whole belief system is changed?

The lenghth some JW can go to defend manmade doctrine is quite amazing forgeting that their light may get brighter tomorrow and their belief today becomes a sin. What kind of light is this that can never be brightest? Certainly not the light from God.

lie! im not a JW,but you are a distraction looking for attention!(you are the last to join the likes of;Chukwudi44,true2God,Ubenedictus and now free123, all these have nothing to offer the forumites!

and your aim on this tread is to derail it, you are pained by the structured facts stylely presented without duplication from OT to NT to prove facts here! learned counsels find it easy to work with these JWS than you guys with nothing to cotribute but 'derail'(kill them before they grow) why are you guys still bent on hiding the truth at any expense? at least you have testified to how they can defend below;

The lenghth some JW can go to defend manmade doctrine is quite amazing

man made doctrines! is that how you view your faith,no wonder you dont have anything to contribute, but rather saying that you dont join issues with JWS you are not having anything,nothing to contribute ,it is when you have something that you can give but if you dont,how can you give? and who's fault? while the JWS without needing an ally from catholics are very consistent, frosbel who even insult you guys became an ally and even with his contribution to help you against JWS, page 13 now and just see the level of the JWS sustainance! all of you guys have faded into oblivion and ever since page 6 most of you cannot quote the bible again! but people like plappvile continue to knock you from piller to post and from all angles with new bible quotes, cant you see the chemistry? using Gods word to interprete itself,and not using a philosophical book like sunkoye who only copy and paste some theologian works but could not personally express what he believes!

i understand that most of you guys have grown up with the doctrines of catholics but could not help the embarrasement that they are soaked with,but instead of being honest you resort to either 'forceful denial' or 'insult/curse' and fanatical,calling names!

it is noteworthy that you (free123) have not contributed a dine to the issue on the ground. i have made my reseaches on JWS activities and i can tell you that they are very consistent and more to their credit they work with facts,and not fiction like the catholics! you guys accuse them of false prophecy but it will be noteworthy that they never prophecy!and have not crossed their boundary, what do i mean? nobody can accuse wacthtower of crossing the boundary set by jesus! that is they have never set a 'day' and 'hour' for the end to come!....(nobody knows the day and the hour....even the son of man,except my father in the heavens....jesus) so whats the fuss all about?


lets see an example of a ''prophecy of destruction'' here again, i have cited it before,
jonah 3:1-3,
(1) Then the Lord spoke to Jonah a second time: (2) “Get up and go to the great city of Nineveh, and deliver the message I have given you.”

NOTE ABOVE THAT JONAH HAS RECEIVE A 'REVELATION' AND WAS TO GO AND DELIVER IT JUST THE WAY IT WAS REVEALED TO HIM;

3 This time Jonah obeyed the Lord’s command and went to Nineveh, a city so large that it took three days to see it all.[a] 4 On the day Jonah entered the city, he shouted to the crowds:[size=18pt] “Forty days from now Nineveh will be destroyed!” [/size]

FOURTY DAYS WILL BE A MONTH AND FEW DAYS IN NISSAN CALLENDAR! THE PEOPLE CAN COUNT FROM THE 'HOUR' OF THE 'DAY' THEY HEARD THE MESSAGE WHICH WILL BE A PARTICULAR HOUR OF THE 41ST DAY, HAD IT BEEN WE KNEW THE DATE JONAH WAS SAYING THIS OF WHICH THE PEOPLE OF NINEVEH CAN SPECIFY THAN US NOW.

40 DAYS NEVER WAS, AND DID JONAH SEE BEIGN ACCUSED AS SOMETHING THAT COULD DERAIL HIS SERVICE TO GOD? OR

BUT DID JONAH AND OTHER FAITHFULL WORSHIPPERS OF GOD RELENT? KNOWING THAT GOD IS FULL OF LOVING KINDNESS AND MAY BECAUSE OF THOSE WHO REPENT CHANGE HIS THREATS? NO THEY CONTINUED.


SO, THE ENTIRE NOTION THAT WATCHTOWER PROPHECIED IS COMPLETELY UNFOUNDED,HERE AND A DISTRACTION,AND ANYONE WITH FACTS CAN PLS ENGAGE ME PERSONALLY.

THERE WAS NO INGREDIENTS LIKE WHAT A PROPHECY SHOULD LOOK LIKE, THE INGREDIENTS THAT ARE TO BE SATISFIED IS THE 'DAY' AND 'HOUR', ACCUSERS MUST COMMIT JWS TO DAY AND HOUR AGAINST JESUS CLAIM THAT ''NOBODY KNOWS THE DAY AND HOUR''

THERE WAS NO TIME THAT THEIR DOCTRINE HAS EVER CHANGE, AND FOR EXAMPLE,1914 STILL REMAIN A REMARKABLE YEAR THEY INSIST THAT JESUS ENTHRONED AS THE KING! THE LATEST STUDY OF THEIR WATCHTOWER SEPTEMBER 15 2012 IS VERY CLEAR ON THAT JUST AS EVER BEFORE AND THERE IS NO REASON FOR FEAR IN ANYWAY WHATSOEVER THAT THEIR BELIEF IS UNSTABLE OR CHANGES OVERTIME.

TO BE FAIR TO JWS, NOBODY HAS COME OUT WITH A 'FIX DAY OF 24HRS IN A MONTH OF 30DAYS' TO NAIL THEM EXCEPT WHAT CAN BE TERMED AS EMPTY INSULTS THAT DOES NOT CHANGE ANYTHING.

WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT, IF THE LEADERS OF JWS SAYS THAT 'LIGHT IS SHINING' THEY HAVE THE FULL BAKING OF THE FOLLOWERS BECAUSE THEY ARE VERY CONSISTENT,UNLIK THE CATOLIC LEADERS THAT THEIR LIGHT INSTEAD OF SHINING CONTINUE TO BE DULL TO THE EXTENT THAT CHURCH MEMBERS WERE ASHAMED TO HIDE FURTHER ALLEGATIONS OF PRIESTS INVOLVED IN MOLESTATION OF THE CHURCH MEMBERS EXPECIALLY YOUNG BOYS, AND THIS HAS BROUGHT AN UNTOLD SHAME TO THE RCC SUCH THAT 8 DIOCEESE WERE BANKRUPT AFTER ALL THEIR MONEYS (mostly moneys deposited to atone or purge the souls of those alledged to be in purgatory,a state before the hell)ALL THESE MONEYS WERE EMPTIED ON ABUSE CASES, CHURCH BUILDINGS SOLD AND A WHOOPING AMOUNT OF ONLY 3 BILLION DOLLARS WERE USED FOR SETTLEMENT ALONE BETWEEN 2OO4-2011 ONLY IN THE UNITED STATES BY THE CATHOLIC,

jws TOO HAVE BETWEEN 8-11 ABUSE CASES IN THE LAST 50 YRS,BUT MOSTLY INVOLVING MEMBERS, AND ALL WERE DISFELLOWSHIPED FOLLOWING BIBLE STANDARD,BUT THE CATHOLIC ROTATE THEIR OWN PRIESTS WHICH CAUSE ONLY THE DIOCEESE IN USA ALONE 95 PERCENT DIOCEESE INFLICTED WITH FLOOD OF ABUSE CLAIMS! WHAT A SHAME!

IS THE LIGHT NOT GETTING DIMMER? DEFINATELY, NOT ONLY IN THE UNITED STATES WE HAVE 18 OTHER COUNTRIES THAT CATHOLIC PRISTS THAT AR SUPPOSE TO BE LEADING WITH EXAMPLE HAVE MESSED UP COMPLETELY. IF YOU CARE TO KNOW HOW RCC LIGHT IS GETTING DIMMER SEE THE LINK BELOW;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sexual_abuse_scandal_in_the_United_States

https://www.nairaland.com/1103419/8-catholic-diocese-declared-bankruptcy

@Boomark

you directed me to google Daniel 10:13 precisely from 'bible.cc.'

Boomark;..If you Google Da 10:13, you will see various translations from 'bible.cc.' I use NWT and NKJV, both gave me one of the 'foremost princes and chief princes.' I also saw 'archangels' in some other translations..

i did, but i was surprised at your report that you saw 'archangels' in some other translations. when archangels only appear in just 'one' translation and that is NLT, of which i have noted the controversy in my earlier post,about why the publisher kenneth taylor changed it from the original old Living Bible(now NLT) which which originally uses 'one of the chief princes' before changing to 'archangels'.

well it will be noted just as i have pointed out before that if New Living Translation 2007 is the only one translation that you refer to as 'some other translations'(in plural) thereby making it up the idea that really other translations really used archangels,that do not exist in your refference presicely 'bible.cc.' pasted below,i want to say that you erred.or can you dispute that? anyway i dont want to insinuate mischief.

at least,before 2007,just 5 yrs ago,when this edition of NLT was published, no bible rendered dan 10:13 'archangels' because we have only one archangel (archo) 'first' of them all,the very first to be created there cant be two! thats why its unique, unless you rely on apocripha pagan scriptures like the tobit, who rendered gabriel and raphael archangel, but nowhere in the bible that ever say;angel gabriel or raphael...and his angels,never! nowhere in the bible ever rendered gabriel and raphael leading other angels.

lets see where you reffered me below 'bible.cc.' and let us see the result, out of 15 translation, only one rendered the verse 'archangels' while 14 others do not.lets see;


<< Daniel 10:13 >> bible.cc/daniel/10-13.htm

1, New International Version (©1984)
But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.
2, New Living Translation (©2007)
But for twenty-one days the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia blocked my way. Then Michael, one of the archangels, came to help me, and I left him there with the spirit prince of the kingdom of Persia.

3, English Standard Version (©2001)
The prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days, but Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I was left there with the kings of Persia,

4, New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"But the prince of the kingdom of Persia was withstanding me for twenty-one days; then behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left there with the kings of Persia.

5, King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, [/b]came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

6, GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The commander of the Persian kingdom opposed me for 21 days. But then Michael,[b] one of the chief commanders, came to help me because I was left alone with the kings of Persia.

7, King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; for I had remained there with the kings of Persia.

8, American King James Version
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, see, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

9, American Standard Version
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

10, Douay-Rheims Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of the Persians resisted me one and twenty days: and behold Michael, one of the chief princes, [/b]came to help me, and I remained there by the king of the Persians.

11, Darby Bible Translation
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; and behold, Michael, [b]one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

12, English Revised Version
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days; but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

13, Webster's Bible Translation
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

14, World English Bible
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; but, behold, Michael, one of the chief princes ,came to help me: and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

15, Young's Literal Translation
'And the head of the kingdom of Persia is standing over-against me twenty and one days, and lo, Michael, first of the chief heads, hath come in to help me, and I have remained there near the kings

:

.

@Boomark

and any other interested ones,

i earlier stated before that;

BARRISTERS: @Boomark, you do have a good point in hebrew 1;5, however we still need to debate that and reconcile with other stronger proofs

Does Hebrews chapter 1 deny jesus beign an Angel/Messenger/servant ever before?

Before we go into the book of hebrews,we need to understand that the name 'jesus christ' was never mentioned in the OT(old testament)from Genesis to malachi, but then,before Abraham(in Genesis) was,i(proposed jesus) was...jesus said! and he was evidently active,and not reduntant. but why was the name 'jesus christ' made secret? even in the book of isaih,where the prophecy of 'the son' was proclaimed,jesu christ 'was not' included! not untill he was conceived by Mary,that an angel unfold the name in the book of Matthew. the question is,how is this (proposed jesus) being addressed?

lets first check the meaning of Angel G32 and H4397 both used for angels in greek/hebrew dict;

G32

ἄγγελος

aggelos

ang'-el-os

From ἀγγέλλω aggellō ; a messenger ; especially an angel ; by implication: - {angel} messenger.

But something noteworthy here is that jesus was reffered to in malachi 3:1-3 as 'my messanger' by the God of host himself, and fortunately, the greek word used to describe jesus as 'my messenger' is just the same used directly for angels word-for-word.

lets see the greek transliteration using the hebrew/greek bible dict.;

Malachi 3:1
Behold, I will sendH7971 [size=18pt]my messenger[/size],H4397 and he shall prepareH6437 the wayH1870 beforeH6440 me: and the Lord,H113 whom ye seek,H1245 shall suddenlyH6597 comeH935 to his temple,H1964 even the [size=18pt]messenger[/size].H4397 of the covenant,H1285 whom ye delightH2655 in: behold, he shall come,H935 saithH559 the LORDH3068 of hosts.H6635

note H4397 above;

[size=14pt]H4397[/size]

מלאך

mal'âk

mal-awk'

From an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger ; specifically of {God} that {is} an angel

furthermore,lets see an example of where H4397 was used below;

(1)Gen 19:1

And there cameH935 twoH8147 [size=14pt]angels[/size].H4397 to SodomH5467 at even;H6153 and LotH3876 satH3427 in the gateH8179 of Sodom:H5467 and LotH3876 seeingH7200 [them] rose upH6965 to meetH7125 them; and he bowedH7812 himself with his faceH639 toward the ground;H776.

(2)Gen 19:15

And whenH3644 the morningH7837 arose,H5927 then the [size=14pt].angels[/size]H4397 hastenedH213 Lot,H3876 saying,H559 Arise,H6965 takeH3947 thy wife,H802 and thy twoH8147 daughters,H1323 which are here;H4672 lest thou be consumedH5595 in

with above proof,
it will be superflous after rendering jesus as 'messenger/angel' in malachi 3:1, to expect a contradiction in hebrews 1:5 ..... ''For to which of the angels did He ever say:''... as meaning that 'no other angels/messanger that he has ever uttered the word 'you are my son'.and of couse, no other messenger/or angel did come to perform the same task of beign born on earth and have to die so as to warrant beign adressed''you are my son'' except the firstborn of all creation collosians 1:15.

will Gods inspired word contradict itself? no, we have to reason as wise ones and not unwise ones.the word angel was derived from greek sylable,(angelos) but must we stick to the sylable or the meaning? definately we need to stick to the meaning to get the bigger picture.

Definately, God did not tell the(proposed jesus) 'while in heaven' either as a messenger or not, the words next “You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You”?[/b]while in heaven. but these words in quotes were directed
to the (proposed christ)only after he had been transformed or born as a man on earth, and precisely during his baptism by john the baptist,and several other places like Mathew 17:5, mark 1:11, mark 9:7 etc, ;


the answer to verse 5 of heb,was found in the the preeceding verse4,see bolded;

hebrews chapter 1:4 KJV

4 [b]Being made so much better than the angels,(main clause) as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.(sub-ordinate clause)

New International Version

So he became as much superior to the angels .(main clause)as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.(sub-ordinate clause)

we have the main clause here 'depending' on the sub-ordinate, that is the main clause cannot stand on its own;

that is jesus became or was beign made superior or better than the angels, was because,or due to the fact,or dependent on the fact that he inherited 'a name'(concealled in OT until he came to the earth), which proved to be.[size=14pt] a more superior or excellent name than they[/size] (angels)

can we merge this statement with that of philipians 2:7-9;

7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him [size=14pt]the name that is above every name[/size],

The (proposed jesus) was not yet ripe to be addressed as (jesus christ) before his birth(no record in the OT to that effect), he remained 'Gods messenger/angel' as he was righly addressed in malachi 3:1 above before his birth. and not better in that capacity because he is yet to be addresed with 'the superior name' only after his assignment on earth,of which no other messenger/or angel did come to perform the same task of beign born and have to die.

Was jesus ever beign reffered to be lower than the angels before or ever took a lower form than the angels? and if yes does that in anyway reduce his dignity?

unfortunately for frosbel and trinitarians who tried to be more emotional in adoring jesus, their denial that jesus being called angel/messanger was even laid bare in next bible verses that i will quote here,jesus was even said to ''be made lower than the angels''

lets read;the same hebrews 2:7 and 9;

7[b] Thou madest him a little lower than the angels;[/b] thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:


9[b] But we see that Jesus, was made a little lower than the angels [/b]for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man

no hiding place in Gods word,can we also say now that at a time when jesus became human, he was lower than the angels! that is angels are superior to humans! instead of faking emotions for christ who doesnt need it anyway but your obedince, why not see the bigger picture he plays as revealed from OT to NT, plappvile has done much on that.

@Barrister
i can understand ur frustration seeing the fallacy u peddled for long being exposed in the light of the truth. It is a shame that anyone with different view from ur falsehood u lump same together with catholics. I got tired reading the nonsense u spewed above. Do u think lengthy and incoherent falsehood wins a case?
Quoting scriptures for u is a waste of time seeing that u have swallowed every bit of rubbish from watchtower and that will not allow u to see that Jesus Christ is not angel Michael even from d falsehood u peddle.
Last question for falsehood peddlers - where in ur own version of the bible is Jesus Christ called Archangel Michael?

@plapp
Jesus existed as God and exists as God. Numerous scriptures attest to that

Jesus Christ is not angel Michael.

If you worship angel Michael, then you are committing an abomination in the sight of GOD.

BARRISTERS: free123




lie! im not a JW,but you are a distraction looking for attention!(you are the last to join the likes of;Chukwudi44,true2God,Ubenedictus and now free123, all these have nothing to offer the forumites!

and your aim on this tread is to derail it, you are pained by the structured facts stylely presented without duplication from OT to NT to prove facts here! learned counsels find it easy to work with these JWS than you guys with nothing to cotribute but 'derail'(kill them before they grow) why are you guys still bent on hiding the truth at any expense? at least you have testified to how they can defend below;


man made doctrines! is that how you view your faith,no wonder you dont have anything to contribute, but rather saying that you dont join issues with JWS you are not having anything,nothing to contribute ,it is when you have something that you can give but if you dont,how can you give? and who's fault? while the JWS without needing an ally from catholics are very consistent, frosbel who even insult you guys became an ally and even with his contribution to help you against JWS, page 13 now and just see the level of the JWS sustainance! all of you guys have faded into oblivion and ever since page 6 most of you cannot quote the bible again! but people like plappvile continue to knock you from piller to post and from all angles with new bible quotes, cant you see the chemistry? using Gods word to interprete itself,and not using a philosophical book like sunkoye who only copy and paste some theologian works but could not personally express what he believes!

i understand that most of you guys have grown up with the doctrines of catholics but could not help the embarrasement that they are soaked with,but instead of being honest you resort to either 'forceful denial' or 'insult/curse' and fanatical,calling names!

it is noteworthy that you (free123) have not contributed a dine to the issue on the ground. i have made my reseaches on JWS activities and i can tell you that they are very consistent and more to their credit they work with facts,and not fiction like the catholics! you guys accuse them of false prophecy but it will be noteworthy that they never prophecy!and have not crossed their boundary, what do i mean? nobody can accuse wacthtower of crossing the boundary set by jesus! that is they have never set a 'day' and 'hour' for the end to come!....(nobody knows the day and the hour....even the son of man,except my father in the heavens....jesus) so whats the fuss all about?


lets see an example of a ''prophecy of destruction'' here again, i have cited it before,
jonah 3:1-3,
(1) Then the Lord spoke to Jonah a second time: (2) “Get up and go to the great city of Nineveh, and deliver the message I have given you.”

NOTE ABOVE THAT JONAH HAS RECEIVE A 'REVELATION' AND WAS TO GO AND DELIVER IT JUST THE WAY IT WAS REVEALED TO HIM;

3 This time Jonah obeyed the Lord’s command and went to Nineveh, a city so large that it took three days to see it all.[a] 4 On the day Jonah entered the city, he shouted to the crowds:[size=18pt] “Forty days from now Nineveh will be destroyed!” [/size]

FOURTY DAYS WILL BE A MONTH AND FEW DAYS IN NISSAN CALLENDAR! THE PEOPLE CAN COUNT FROM THE 'HOUR' OF THE 'DAY' THEY HEARD THE MESSAGE WHICH WILL BE A PARTICULAR HOUR OF THE 41ST DAY, HAD IT BEEN WE KNEW THE DATE JONAH WAS SAYING THIS OF WHICH THE PEOPLE OF NINEVEH CAN SPECIFY THAN US NOW.

40 DAYS NEVER WAS, AND DID JONAH SEE BEIGN ACCUSED AS SOMETHING THAT COULD DERAIL HIS SERVICE TO GOD? OR

BUT DID JONAH AND OTHER FAITHFULL WORSHIPPERS OF GOD RELENT? KNOWING THAT GOD IS FULL OF LOVING KINDNESS AND MAY BECAUSE OF THOSE WHO REPENT CHANGE HIS THREATS? NO THEY CONTINUED.


SO, THE ENTIRE NOTION THAT WATCHTOWER PROPHECIED IS COMPLETELY UNFOUNDED,HERE AND A DISTRACTION,AND ANYONE WITH FACTS CAN PLS ENGAGE ME PERSONALLY.

THERE WAS NO INGREDIENTS LIKE WHAT A PROPHECY SHOULD LOOK LIKE, THE INGREDIENTS THAT ARE TO BE SATISFIED IS THE 'DAY' AND 'HOUR', ACCUSERS MUST COMMIT JWS TO DAY AND HOUR AGAINST JESUS CLAIM THAT ''NOBODY KNOWS THE DAY AND HOUR''

THERE WAS NO TIME THAT THEIR DOCTRINE HAS EVER CHANGE, AND FOR EXAMPLE,1914 STILL REMAIN A REMARKABLE YEAR THEY INSIST THAT JESUS ENTHRONED AS THE KING! THE LATEST STUDY OF THEIR WATCHTOWER SEPTEMBER 15 2012 IS VERY CLEAR ON THAT JUST AS EVER BEFORE AND THERE IS NO REASON FOR FEAR IN ANYWAY WHATSOEVER THAT THEIR BELIEF IS UNSTABLE OR CHANGES OVERTIME.

TO BE FAIR TO JWS, NOBODY HAS COME OUT WITH A 'FIX DAY OF 24HRS IN A MONTH OF 30DAYS' TO NAIL THEM EXCEPT WHAT CAN BE TERMED AS EMPTY INSULTS THAT DOES NOT CHANGE ANYTHING.

let he wu is without sin be the first to cast a stone. Im very sure Jw dont sin.

Boomark;..If you Google Da
10:13, you will see various
translations from 'bible.cc.' I use
NWT and NKJV, both gave me
one of the 'foremost princes
and chief princes.' I also saw
'archangels' in some other
translations..

@barristers

Just remove "s" from the word 'translations'. I was just trying to tell you that i get several translations in one piece using bible.cc.

@free123

@Barrister

i can understand ur frustration seeing the fallacy u peddled for long being exposed in the light of the truth. It is a shame that anyone with different view from ur falsehood u lump same together with catholics. I got tired reading the nonsense u spewed above. Do u think lengthy and incoherent falsehood wins a case?
Quoting scriptures for u is a waste of time seeing that u have swallowed every bit of rubbish from watchtower and that will not allow u to see that Jesus Christ is not angel Michael even from d falsehood u peddle.
Last question for falsehood peddlers - where in ur own version of the bible is Jesus Christ called Archangel Michael?

frustration ke? iyen o tile si ni diary mi rara! more are still coming!sho ti ri iyen gbo!, all you need to do is to view it, you dont really need to agree with it,rara o ,when you do not even have anything to offer,ki la tie nso gan! i never expected you to see more than your nose,i expect you to be pained at the expose, expecially when the same hebrews that you thought is supporting your view is telling you in heb 2:7,9 that 'jesus was even made lower than the angels at some point' but still i honor himand pray through his name.because he has been exalted.

you cannot be better than your ogas! who tied william tyndale to a tree and burn him live! but can you stop the expose that tyndale champion? your catholic priests will fraudulently collect money from relatives of dead ones,promising them that the soul of their loved ones are being 'purged' in the purgatory, i want to ask,such moneys if used to settle abuse cases thereby leaving the dead to be feeling horror in purgatory, dont you think that they will be praying for your priest or curse them? have you ever put your hand in fire just for 2 mins, how does it feel,yet you abandon someone there trading the atonement money aaah, this catholics are a case.

who told you that lenthy write ups dont win case, you think lazy and indecisive people people like you who cannot even defend your faith talkless of winning a case,you are even having a dine nothing to contribute posingg as someone who is already tired,olodo broda-ooole! typical omo naija, alaimora ,you guys have nothing to offer. more still to come!

@Boomark

@barristers

Just remove "s" from the word 'translations'. I was just trying to tell you that i get several translations in one piece using bible.cc.

no shaking my broda, i also thought it could be a mistake too, nothing do you! at least your write ups are structured and very easy to work with you, the only area is that of different commanders, but then,we are learning here,as you have rightly noted, the bible should not contradict itself,i still need to also get get your view to my last post, thanks.

@ubenedictus

let he wu is without sin be the first to cast a stone. Im very sure Jw dont sin.

i also noted that they can sin too, if you read the post,the few cases they had,jws were very firm to disffelowship those affected outrighly, but many will still criticise that why must they be disfelowshiped, calling GB as too rigid and harsh,but how do you describe a situation where catholic priests are not dismissed for such offence,but are rotated among parishes up to the level of 8 diocess running into bankruptcy after settling repeatedly abuse cases! what measure are being put in place to check those execes, note that, had it been that free123 did not go into insulting the WT,nobody will care to go into these cases, but how can someone with series or fleets of mind buggling cases be throwing stones first? is it right, im ready if he continue to distract attention from the topic.

@frosbel

Jesus Christ is not angel Michael.

If you worship angel Michael, then you are committing an abomination in the sight of GOD.

your post is too dry, read heb 2:7,9 where it is said that 'jesus was even made lower than the angels at some point' you are even making a case that he has always been greater than the angels but what about heb 2:7,9 above.are you going to cry?
abeg go start frosbel movement international jare! 3 jesus.

@barristers

John was referred to as a messenger in Malachi 3:1. See also:

Matthew 11:7-10

7 As they went away, Jesus
began to speak to the crowds
concerning John: “What did you go
out ninto the wilderness to see? oA
reed shaken by the wind? 8 What
then did you go out to see? A
man 1 dressed in soft clothing?
Behold, those who wear soft
clothing are in kings' houses.
9 What then did you go out to
see? pA prophet? 2 Yes, I tell you,
and more than a prophet. 10[b] This
is he of whom it is written,
q“‘Behold, I send my messenger before
your face,
who will prepare your way before you.’[/b]

Does that make him an angel?

Why did Oahray have run because of chukwudi44?

BARRISTERS: @ubenedictus


i also noted that they can sin too, if you read the post,the few cases they had,jws were very firm to disffelowship those affected outrighly, but many will still criticise that why must they be disfelowshiped, calling GB as too rigid and harsh,but how do you describe a situation where catholic priests are not dismissed for such offence,but are rotated among parishes up to the level of 8 diocess running into bankruptcy after settling repeatedly abuse cases!

becos b4 now pedophilia was considered a phychological problem that can be treated with therapy, the said priest went 4 therapy and were certified to be cured, the phychologist also gave advise that the said priest b transfered at intervals, d bishops didnt just decide to be shifting accused priest up and down

what measure are being put in place to check those execes,

i think wekipedia answered dis kwesun well

note that, had it been that free123 did not go into insulting the WT,nobody will care to go into these cases, but how can someone with series or fleets of mind buggling cases be throwing stones first? is it right, im ready if he continue to distract attention from the topic.

oh! U want to use the victim card? Hahaha, becos free said d wt made false prophesy so u say d cc bishops didnt handle pedophilia well. Do two wrongs make a right?

@Bookmark, I didnt run. I know when to stop. There are million out there who are interested in knowing the truth. I'm not going to waste my energy with ubenedictus and his likes who would rather throw tantrums and derail posts in an attempt at covering their gaping ignorance. If they really wanna discuss the bible, I'd be more than willing.

Una still never resolve the question?

Boomark: @barristers

Why did Oahray have run because of chukwudi44?

what do you mean by this ^^^

Ubenedictus: becos b4 now pedophilia was considered a phychological problem that can be treated with therapy, the said priest went 4 therapy and were certified to be cured, the phychologist also gave advise that the said priest b transfered at intervals, d bishops didnt just decide to be shifting accused priest up and down i think wekipedia answered dis kwesun well oh! U want to use the victim card? Hahaha, becos free said d wt made false prophesy so u say d cc bishops didnt handle pedophilia well. Do two wrongs make a right?

the bible clearly said that such kind of people should be disfellowshiped but your RCC disregarded the bible as usual and ended up committing that much attrocities to later come after the damage has been done to give "medicine after death" thinking they are then following the bible.

leave tradition and follow the bible always.

Oahray: @Bookmark, I didnt run. I know when to stop. There are million out there who are interested in knowing the truth. I'm not going to waste my energy with ubenedictus and his likes who would rather throw tantrums and derail posts in an attempt at covering their gaping ignorance. If they really wanna discuss the bible, I'd be more than willing.

thanks for the insults!
Weldone mr not ignorant suprising i'm not d person derialing d thread nor throwing tantrums mr read-d-bible-most d bible says "thou shall not bear false witness"
weldone

You folks should stop insulting nao