@olabowale,

I had to take some time to rejoice there in HOW Jesus Christ delivered me from the bondage of the spirit of Islam. I don't mean to be sarcastic, but please endure me for a small while to enquire as to what I have never been able to understand in Islam until this very day!

I used to read frequently in the Hadiths that the followers of Muhammad would often say:

May my parents be sacrificed for you!
(or, 'let my parents sacrifice their lives for you')

I used to think that it was just a familiar oriental expression to show true love and devotion to Muhammad. . until I confirmed otherwise that it meant literarily that! You may not agree with this (and you should not), but I had seen Muslims in Pakistan during one of my visits who actually beat their wives mercilessly and also threatened to slaughter to please 'the Messenger of Allah'. My dad (with whom I had argued that topic) simply turned round to me and smiled - not a word until we got home. All he wanted was for me to know for certain that such expressions were actually an established tenet of Islam!

But things started turning around for me that would launch me into a deep thrist to know the truth - at least to "prove" my dad wrong! I hated his 'Christian' prayers at home, I would make every noise possible as he prayed and sang in his quiet time with the Lord - but the more I hated him, the more he loved me. My eyes are filled with joyful tears when I think back on all those times.

All in all, I kept asking why Muhammad did not seek to correct those who used that expression - "may my parents be sacrificed for you"? In the same Hadiths, we read that one of the greatest sins among Muslims was for anyone to curse his parents! (Sahih Bukhari, Volume 8, Book 73, Number 4).

I came to a crossroad to choose between which was worse:

(a) killing one's parents (Islam encouraged it - for what reasons I don't know)

(b) cursing one's parents (Islam discouraged it - as far as I remember - and still no sound reasons)

But the day the Lord Jesus Christ touched my life, He did not only deliver me from that hatred - He poured His love into my heart! I'm amazed that my parents could be my best friends!!

That is just a spec of what Jesus can do - and that is something I want you to be encouraged to understand: Christianity is about choosing L.I.F.E. and not death! By believeing in Jesus Christ as precisely as the Bible teaches, one is able to experience such a transformation and actually begin to enjoy that solid hope today on earth!


Would you consider knowing Jesus Christ and His power to change lives - to experience this powerful love for YOURSELF?

It's no use trying to discredit Him. Jesus lives - and ever lives to give LIFE to all who trust in Him!

Bless you.

Bless you pilgrim.1, bless you

@Pligrim.1: Let me thank you for not getting completely upset with me. I could be nutty, atimes. Thats human and am not an angel.

In view of my apology, I will assume that we can now talk as adults, trying to learn with our thinking cap on. Not emotional, but rational and practical in our approach. When I say that the Biblical Jesus is not what the Muslims are referring to, is to simple put that: the characterization of what the Muslims know of Jesus is not 100% with what what the christians say about him, from their Bible and the implied statements of Paul/Saul. For example if someone, eg yourself were to describe me, from what you know of me from Nairaland, versus my wife's description of me, knowing fully well that she is with me as I write, her description will be more accurate than yours. So since Muhammad (AS), is a prophet of Allah, the name that God is known as in Arabic language, just like Olorun is in Yoruba, then I believe him, completely and whatever he said about Jesus which I can find in the Bible, I also belief. I do not believe the Bible to support the Qur'an, but the Qur'a as the yardstick for which I believe any verse that I believe in the Bible.

From the characterization and description of Jesus in the Qur'an, we will see that in Chapter 5, towards the end of this chapter, God asked Jesus, if he told mankind to worship him and consider him and his mother as part of God? We read where Jesus answer his Lord, that he never would do such a thing. Earlier in the same chapter 5 (the table spead), we see where Jesus petition by praying to his Lord (Allah) to send him food from heaven, as asign which his companions have asked him to do, so that their heart can be strong in believe of him as a prophet. That one already happened. The earlier will happen in the day of Judgement. InshaAllah.

In chapter of mary (The Bible barely spoke about this noble woman, whereas, Qur'an devoted a whole chapter on her, plus talking about her as the best woman ever created and in several other chapters, where she was spoken about). In this chapter, we see that Jesus spoke as a child, not normally given the ability to speak, only this time, to defend his mother about the lies of fornication/adultery that the children of israel were trying to level against her, for having this Child. Towards the end of the chapter, God Almight Allah spoke about the fact that all things in heaven and earth come to him as servant. That includes Jesus (AS). God also spoke about the permission of intercession is granted only by HIM, to whoever He wills. There is others in this chapter. I bet you will find them yourself.

In the chapter known as 'those who set in arrays', Suratul saffat, Allah says that Jesus was sent as a messenger/prophet/massiah only to the children of Israel and that Jesus was to erade the coming of the messenger/prophet whose name is Ahmad. Ahmad is an Arabic word and Muhammad (AS), is also known as Ahmad.

Part of the abitity given to Jesus, as we read in Chapter 5 of the holy Qur'an was that he was able to tell the leadership of the children of Israel, what they did/have stored up in their homes, before they came to him later. His ability by God permission to tell them was the means by which they could not cast the first stone against the poor woman they accused of performing illicit sexual action. This was mercy and mercies were dispalyed by all prophets/messengers of GOD!

You will be denying the truth, clearly and without remorse, if you say that you can not read from the Qur'an, many many verses where Mercy, forgiveness, paradise and other comforting qualities are mentioned. Yes you will see where evil doing and evildoers will be punished, sererely. This is also mercy, because there is a warning before hand. No one should despire in the Mercy/forgiveness of God, while one is still alive. It is at the point of death that sudden belief is rejected. Please pay attention that Pharaoh, declared his belief in Oneness of the God of Moses (AS), as he was drowning. But his belief was rejected and God said that He his body will be kept as a sign for furure generation to see. Pharaoh's body was not discovered, all those centuaries, and only was discovered after the revelation of the relevant verses concerning it in the Qur'an.

Please ask the Egyptians scholarship about this. The place where the body of Pharaoh who drowned all these centuaries is known as the Mountain of Pharaoh. Ask yourself, didnt the animals that pick flesh clean and devour meat and the decaying process get to it? Except that it is a sign and God revealed it only in the Qur'an so complete that it stands the test of time.

@olabowale,

I still have a few more minutes before I get really busy, so I'll try to pateintly chat with you.

First, I should apologise where my rejoinders did not come across to you in the desired grace one might have hoped it should. But then, I'll try to be more condescending as we reason along.

Permit me to simply summarise your rejoinder into a neat package for easier reference and discussion instead of taking them line after the other.

olabowale:

In view of my apology, I will assume that we can now talk as adults, trying to learn with our thinking cap on. Not emotional, but rational and practical in our approach. When I say that the Biblical Jesus is not what the Muslims are referring to, is to simple put that: the characterization of what the Muslims know of Jesus is not 100% with what what the christians say about him, from their Bible and the implied statements of Paul/Saul. For example if someone, eg yourself were to describe me, from what you know of me from Nairaland, versus my wife's description of me, knowing fully well that she is with me as I write, her description will be more accurate than yours. So since Muhammad (AS), is a prophet of Allah, the name that God is known as in Arabic language, just like Olorun is in Yoruba, then I believe him, completely and whatever he said about Jesus which I can find in the Bible, I also belief. I do not believe the Bible to support the Qur'an, but the Qur'a as the yardstick for which I believe any verse that I believe in the Bible.

The highlighted part of your reposte is where the real issue lies in discussing with Muslims - I know because I was once like that. However, it is actually setting the cart before the horse, so to speak. Why so? For the simple reason that what comes later should be examined by what has come before it!

So, if you discredit the Bible simply on the basis of what the Qur'an says, I could well bear with you - but for all that, it would mean that you are espousing a wrong premise.

Many other "prophets" have arisen claiming to also know 'Jesus'. The things they say about Him are far between what the Qur'an and the Bible teach about Him. But what then? If one is to use your analogy of your wife knowing you more accurately than an outsider, then I should presume then that we go to the very people out of which Jesus emerged - the JEWS!!

It may suit you just well to try and evaluate the message of the Bible on the basis of what the Qur'an says; but even if you examine the Qur'an by the Qur'an itself, you will find issues therein that prove hugely embarrassing for the most scholarly among Muslims!

I have offered just one such in another thread concerning who is the Holy Spirit in Islam? You will find that not even Muhammad was able to provide a sound answer when he was questioned about this by the Jews. Why the Jews? I would say that it was pivotal indeed because Muhammad had once claimed to have been sent by the same God who sent the Biblical prophets!

Now, these Biblical prophets knew who the Holy Spirit is - they experienced His power in their ministries; and God spoke to them directly!! Guess what? Muhammad could not claim to have been spoken directly to by Allah!! NOT in one instance did Muhammad ever make that claim!

My inference therefore is this:

(a) we would have to choose between listening to those who heard directly from God;

[center]OR[/center]

(b) choose another 'prophet' who confessed that he never heard directly from God!!

Please, dear Olabowale, whom do you think is more credible to listen to?

@pligrim.1: As I read your last entry about your understanding of the hadith and your father's inability to answer your confusion, it became clear to me that you did not have a any understanding of hadith. Even in Qur'an, you find that drinking permissable. That was so, because the Arabs were drunks. But the acceptability of it had conditions and later on, as belief became strong in them, it was completely abolished and forbidden. So was adultery/fornication,etc. For instance, if somebody who is a drinker wants to become muslim, I will only ask him to be sober, when he declares his belief. However, as he is encouraged to pray and observe the true tenet of Islam, specifically, prayer and doing good deeds, he will gradually leave drinking.

So when Islam began, it was common that the arabs used to be warring people, who carried grugdes between clans for centauries. This period is know as jahaliyah or preislamic. They used to sacrifice themselves to their gods. It was an expression that remained with them as Islam took deep roots in their hearts. They used it to show great disappointment or dissatisfaction about an action. As when Abu bakr used it for Umar, who reading the Torah and the noble prophet (AS) came to know about it.

Please tell if any companion sacrifice his/her parent, and say it is for you, Oh messenger of Allah? And Muhammad (AS) said it was Okay? Please do not forget that Islam of Muhammad stopped the arabs from all kind of sacrifices to their gods and the killing of daughters and worshipping of all of idols, physical or imagined.

The Asiatic people, just like the africans or even the Arabs, did not leave their period of ignorance, completely when they entered Islam. The asiatic peiople, pakistan is one of them, interject so aspect of hindu tradition into islam. As for the africans, since am a Yoruba man, let me talk about what i know; Gold is not permissable for man, yet you find almost all wearing gold and even having in on good and healthy tooth/teeth! Some even wear silk as well!

You should know that whatever any muslim does, if it is against Qur'an and the explanation of Qur'an, which is Sunnah/hadith, it is unislamic and completely wrong! If you wish I can write you and we can talk about these misunderstandings of yours. Futher I will love to talk to your father. You will have to connect us. He is my brother in Islam and it will be pleasure to know him.

pilgrim.1:

My inference therefore is this:

(a) we would have to choose between listening to those who heard directly from God;

[center]OR[/center]

(b) choose another 'prophet' who confessed that he never heard directly from God!!

Please, dear Olabowale, whom do you think is more credible to listen to?

Check out the FACTS:

(a) every Biblical prophet heard directly from God. Sometimes, angels spoke to them; but ultimately, every single one of them had the distinguishing feature that God spoke directly to them.

(b) Muhammad NEVER once hear God speak to him directly. He claimed to have been spoken to all through his career by the angel Gabriel (Jibril); but that is like saying that Islam is predicated on second-hand information!!

When you're dealing with issues between you and your household, you're most probably going to trust your wife above all else and listen directly to her so that you may obtain accurate understanding directly from her on domestic matters.

But when you are dealing with a circle of relationships much latger than your family, say as working in Government House, people will not be rest content by a reporter or your wife who may claim that the Governor said this or that! It is not that people don't trust that your wife is credible; but until they hear DIRECTLY from the Governor, you don't stand a chance of bringing deep conviction in social concourse.

The disciples of Jesus Christ heard directly from Jesus; and He made clear that He spoke the Father's words to them. At one occasion, the Father spoke to Him in their audience, and many thought that it had just thundered (John 12:29). But just so that they might know that Jesus heard DIRECTLY and spoke DIRECTLY from the Father, that testimony was recorded.

But how do you deal with Muhammad's case where he claimed that he was always being "inspired" - and the question would be: BY WHOM?!?

Muhammad never heard from God - not to mention whether it was a DIRECT revelation or not! Muslims like to believe that the angel Gabriel could not have erred at all - and we endure that and are happy to acknowledge it. Yet, we don't see answers coming forth from Muslims when we ask this question about HOW Muhammad could have been a credible prophet when God NEVER spoke to him DIRECTLY? Why was that essential part lacking in Muhammad's life?

Lastly, I would like to raise another issue here:

Olabowale, are you aware of the FACT that Muhammad was known to have said that the angel Jibril read the Qur'an to him in seven variations (that is, SEVEN DIFFERENT ways)? Are you aware of that FACT? If you were not, well. . . know it today - ask and I will provide you with the evidence.

But more than that, if angel Jibril could render the "pure" word of Allah in various ways, where then is the "purity"? Could you trust a secondhand information instead of hearing directly from GOD HIMSELF?

There are huge issues in Islam yet unattended. For now, enjoy.

God bless you.

@Pilgrim
Thank God for your  testimony, you're one of the living witnesses, I pray God to uphold you and give you the grace to keep on keeping on.

Olabowale Bros,
Stop fighting an "already defeated" battle. you know the truth ola, but to accept and do, is your prob!!! _{It's so obvious from your questions.} hmmh, it is well.

Or is it that you are confused?? And if you really are, I'd suggest you feel free to ask your questions in a more appropriate way rather than been antagonistic .

@olabowale,

olabowale:

@pligrim.1: As I read your last entry about your understanding of the hadith and your father's inability to answer your confusion, it became clear to me that you did not have a any understanding of hadith. Even in Qur'an, you find that drinking permissable. That was so, because the Arabs were drunks. But the acceptability of it had conditions and later on, as belief became strong in them, it was completely abolished and forbidden. So was adultery/fornication,etc. For instance, if somebody who is a drinker wants to become muslim, I will only ask him to be sober, when he declares his belief. However, as he is encouraged to pray and observe the true tenet of Islam, specifically, prayer and doing good deeds, he will gradually leave drinking.

So when Islam began, it was common that the arabs used to be warring people, who carried grugdes between clans for centauries. This period is know as jahaliyah or preislamic. They used to sacrifice themselves to their gods. It was an expression that remained with them as Islam took deep roots in their hearts. They used it to show great disappointment or dissatisfaction about an action. As when Abu bakr used it for Umar, who reading the Torah and the noble prophet (AS) came to know about it.

Dear me. . I'm sorry, but that seems to have been somewhat a deflection of the main concerns I raised. Drinking, adultery, fornication, and all else were not a problem for me at all - I knew what those meant in Islam.

However, whatever you had argued went right round the veru disturbing issue of killing people for Muhammad's sake. That was the point; but all the same I appreciate your attempts on that.

olabowale:

Please tell if any companion sacrifice his/her parent, and say it is for you, Oh messenger of Allah? And Muhammad (AS) said it was Okay? Please do not forget that Islam of Muhammad stopped the arabs from all kind of sacrifices to their gods and the killing of daughters and worshipping of all of idols, physical or imagined.

I'm not sure you quite have a good grasp of the several things you mentioned here. But for your sake, I'm glad that babs787 at one time mentioned Ibn Ishaq as a trusted Islamic resource. What is vital here are two things:

[list](i) How is it that Muhammad NEVER discouraged his followers from using that expression: "may my parents be sacrificed for you"? He very well knew that this was the same Arabian idolatry that encouraged people to kill their own kinfolks indiscriminately, and when it was carried over into Islam, it seemed to me that Muhammad received it without question. I have searched all available resources in Islam I could come across to find out if he ever did anything to discourage it! None whatsoever!

(ii) Now, do you remember how many times I have called attention to the idolatry of the BLACK STONE veneration - and you have conveneintly ducked that one?
[/list]

If you keep ducking issues to be discussed, how do you hope to prgress the dicussion?

olabowale:

The Asiatic people, just like the africans or even the Arabs, did not leave their period of ignorance, completely when they entered Islam. The asiatic peiople, pakistan is one of them, interject so aspect of hindu tradition into islam. As for the africans, since am a Yoruba man, let me talk about what i know; Gold is not permissable for man, yet you find almost all wearing gold and even having in on good and healthy tooth/teeth! Some even wear silk as well!

You should know that whatever any muslim does, if it is against Qur'an and the explanation of Qur'an, which is Sunnah/hadith, it is unislamic and completely wrong! If you wish I can write you and we can talk about these misunderstandings of yours. Futher I will love to talk to your father. You will have to connect us. He is my brother in Islam and it will be pleasure to know him.

I can trust that my Dad would be most thrilled to speak with you, but be prepared to experienced the power of a life-changing Christ in him.

Second, the highlighted part again is what I would like you to address in regards to the black Stone veneration. We know it is unislamic, for there's nothing in Allah's injunction that Muhammad could have held unto in support of that stone-veneration. His companion simply said it was a show off to the PAGANS.

Reagrds.

@OlowoTee,

OlowoTee:

@Pilgrim
Thank God for your testimony, you're one of the living witnesses, I pray God to uphold you and give you the grace to keep on keeping on.

Well, all I can say is that the glory be to God. I value your continued prayers.

OlowoTee:

Olabowale Bros,
Stop fighting an "already defeated" battle. you know the truth ola, but to accept and do, is your prob!!! _{It's so obvious from your questions.} hmmh, it is well.

Lol. . . by God's grace, we'll continue to help them come to understand (God is able to touch their hearts).

Blessings.

lets not get carried away and forget the topic of this thread.


we read 2nd corinthians 5 from 10 to 17 in church yesterday.i learnt that we walk and live by FAITH and not by what we see,hear or pass through.enviroment and situations should not affect our xtian living.Gods grace is ever sufficient for his own.moreover,the just shall live by FAITH.

@pilgrim

Where is babs787? Perhaps he might help you with his usual twister to interpret the title "Messiah" as applicable to "ALL PROPHETS". I dey wait!!

I am not surprised at your response whenever you are cornered. I only added that as part of my explanation to John 14 v16 in which you claimed referred to Holy Spirit.





Please, mr babs787. . . HOW MANY times do you have to go over this same issue that has been thrashed and done with?


You havent done that. You may assist your brother in answering my questions: was He "crucified' In JERUSALEM or outside and please what was his age when he was "crucified"?

I'm still waiting for your answer to the simple question that was offered you in one of the threads in that regards:

WHO was put as a substitute on the Cross instead of Jesus - as Muslims claim?

Now let me ask you same question I asked your brother, if they "crucified" someone and he didnt die on the cross, do you still call that "crucifixion"?

Just ponder on that carefully - if you're here scooting off from thread to thread on the same issue.

Provide answers and others will follow

Cheers.

U too.

@Pligrim.1: Glory belongs to Allah, alone. The Lord who exists without partner and capable of doing all things. Since He was complete before the "word", He continues to complete, even when the 'word' died a grusome death. He will continue to be complete until the end of time,

Since you have not found in any record that a single companion actually sacrificed his/her parent or folk for Muhammad, it actually ends our discusssion. But I will simply say to you that Muhammad's life history was painstakingly collected and recorded, along with the companions' interaction with him. So if only we will use our inner eye to see that it is probably recorded at the beginning of Islam. Your reading of it from hadith points out that even what is unsettling to the muslims and later on abrogated was recorded. It may disappoint you that preservation of live is a big thing in Islam coupled with your recognisition that respect should be accorded to parents. When my mother was a christian, she was loved as much as I love her now, except that am now happy that she is a muslima. In those days i prayed that she would not die in disbelief. Alhamdulillah, this prayer was accepted.

Please go to google video and enter the miracles of Muhammad. Under it you go to the work of Professor Z. Al-Najjar. From his work, you will see The Blackstone of the kaaba(A scientifi miracle). Please make your research within the British royal establishments, eg, Library and museum of natural History. I know you can do that for me.

I will love to have a word with your dad. Afterall we are humans, africans, nigerians, yorubas, etc. I again sent you my YIM.


By the way, is there any verse in the NEW TESTAMENT, that Jesus seemed to have used spirit/ghost to mean prophet/messenger. Eg. Good spirit/ghost to mean a true prophet/messenger of GOd, because what that prophet says comes to be fulfilled, in the appropriate time, while bad spirit/ghost is to indicate that the one who claimed to be prophet and and all his statement comes to past is not a prophet? This was the litmus of Jesus to prophethood or good/true spirit!



How is that prophet from the three prophets that John the baptist, was ask if he was one of them, yet he said he was not one of them? Has that prophet came and please do not tell us that it is the return of jesus that makes three. (Elijah, Messiah and that prophet; am just reminding you.)

@Pligrim.1: God who is capable of doing all things, said that Jesus was not crucified and was not killed, you want a believer to expalin who was put in his place. The same God who ransomed the son of Ibrahiim (AS), so that you do not get angry with me I will not mentioned the name of the son, who was that fulfilment, considering the age of the father when he had his first son, Ismail and how old a child could get, before he would be able to process and agree with his fathers action from the dream. Please note that Issiaq is about 13 years the junior of his big brother.

Now God ransomed the patiently obedient child with RAM, a cattle from and not from the flock of a shephard next door, so please tell me, is ransoming Jesus and put him in safety going to be difficult for GOD? God, Who created all things, the getting Jesus away from the clutches of the enemy of God, who are bent on killing His prophet, in order that they may boost that his soul was cursed, was easy for GOD.

When you ask these questions, it as to indicate to us that you limit the power and the capability of God. Said that He saved Jesus from his enemy, that is enough for me. For I do not doubt it.

It is very easy for a person to become christian, because the commitment to Islam is very difficult at first, when you are looking from outside in. Even the act of cleanliness, the two wudu are very difficult. Well, my thing is that I will be happy to talk and support my statement, InshaAllah with sound arguments.

olabowale:

Now God ransomed the patiently obedient child with RAM, a cattle from and not from the flock of a shephard next door, so please tell me, is ransoming Jesus and put him in safety going to be difficult for GOD? God, Who created all things, the getting Jesus away from the clutches of the enemy of God, who are bent on killing His prophet, in order that they may boost that his soul was cursed, was easy for GOD.

It never ceases to amaze me how far people can go in trying so hard to reason for a god. The bible says God's thoughts and ways are as far from us as the east to the west. He tells us that He makes the foolish things of this world as wise. . .
That is why no matter how hard you beat your head against the wall you still wont be able to rationalise why God could not have "delivered" Jesus from the death on the cross. . . His ways are past finding out. For by searching we CANNOT find God.

olabowale:

It is very easy for a person to become christian, because the commitment to Islam is very difficult at first, when you are looking from outside in. Even the act of cleanliness, the two wudu are very difficult. Well, my thing is that I will be happy to talk and support my statement, InshaAllah with sound arguments.

So what makes a religion right is how difficult it is to perform the rituals required? no wonder the bible says that as in the days of Noah so shall it be at the end of days. The people laughed Noah to scorn when he told then a huge flood would wipe them out.

Muslims laugh us to scorn when you tell them that christianity is as simple as a 20sec prayer of genuine repentance. Continue washing your hands and feet 2000 times a day - - you forget that it is not the things that enter a man that condemns him but what proceeds out of his heart.

@davidylan: Be ni tie nri. Okare. But the Qur'an says that Jesus was not crucified and did not die! Kalas! That show s the power of God right there. God said that it was made to be so, so that their thought was only a conjecture. That in the end He will make them see the error of their statement. I do not have to invent any mechanism to explain anything.

I do not indulge in self punishment. I love me, as a product of God, that I do not burden myself on anything. So I will slam my head against any wall. I leave that to you energetic people. Pele pele lagba nse. This simple to amuse you, because you get angry very quickly. Kai!

David, I play with you in an indirect way, saying that most people run from Islam because it is too bothersome. You have to be dedicated and you do not find too many people ready to commit. They find an easier process, though it may be wrong. It is you is laughing the muslims to scorn, when we say that Jesus is not without limit in power and position, yet you just did not see the wisdom in you trying to worship more than One true God!

I revere Jesus, as a muslim, it is required of my faith in Allah. I want you just to think for a moment; Muhammad said that Jesus is not God nor son of God and had limited power, which God permitted him and that he was not a universal prophet, but only to the children of Israel alone. This revelation, in the Qur'an, as the chapter known as Mariam, came prior Hijra to Ethiopia, at least few years before the Hijra to Madina. Muhammad lived all those years and yet Jesus, who you claimed is God/Son of God and has absolute power, did not speak with a loud voice from heaven, as he had done with Saul about his being persecuted, to reveal the falsehood of that statement which Muhammad said about him? You should ask yourself why didnt it happen.

Since you do not know the quality of the honesty of the last prophet I need to tell you a snipet of it: There is a chapter in the Qur'an called Abasa or he frowned. This chapter as titled, came about because prophet Muhammad did not pay attention or as to indicate lack of given sttention to a blind man, immediately the blind man was seeking the attention of this prophet. The prophet was in the middle of propagation of his mission to some powerful individuals. He wanted the blind man to wait and be patient so that he can finish up with this powerful group of individual. But God sent revelation to make His prophet pay attention to the blind man! Muhammad, contrary to the maligning statement of the enemy of islam, even up to today, did not fail down as the verses of that chapter was revealed to him. See, he was honest enough to tell his companions about what was revealed and the reason it was revealed. He said of the blind man that because of you, my Lord remembered me. Please note that revelation wascoming to him for 23 years, which was the last 23 years of his life! Yet he said with humility and humbleness about his Lord that He remembered him!


What is it that you do not understand?

@olabowale,

olabowale:

@davidylan: Be ni tie nri. Okare. But the Qur'an says that Jesus was not crucified and did not die! Kalas! That show s the power of God right there. God said that it was made to be so, so that their thought was only a conjecture. That in the end He will make them see the error of their statement. I do not have to invent any mechanism to explain anything.

I'm sorry to observe that the "Qur'an says" many things it cannot substantiate as well. So, if Muhammad denied the Crucifixion and resurrection of Christ, that's not something to be bothered about. People who died before Christ came had been raised. But the Resurrection of Christ from the dead is the pivotal garce of the blessed hope for those who believe in God.

Sadly, there is so much talk of "the resurrection day" in Islam - and yet, no one has ever demonstrated that power in the religion that Muhammad established.

olabowale:

David, I play with you in an indirect way, saying that most people run from Islam because it is too bothersome. You have to be dedicated and you do not find too many people ready to commit. They find an easier process, though it may be wrong. It is you is laughing the muslims to scorn, when we say that Jesus is not without limit in power and position, yet you just did not see the wisdom in you trying to worship more than One true God!

Although the Trinity is a difficult concept for Muslims to grasp, does it help you to be derisive and sarcastic at Christians just because you don't understand anything in the Biblical faiths?

olabowale:

I revere Jesus, as a muslim, it is required of my faith in Allah.

I wouldn't deny you your claim; but we know that Muslims only mouth that calim and have no regard whatsoever for Him. In Islam, everything devolves around Muhammad - you fight for Muhammad, kill for him, plunder and loot for his cause. . . and several other sad things Muslims do for him.

How much love would you be willing to show for Jesus? It doesn't matter whether you choose a conveneint corridor to squeeze yourself out by claiming there are two 'Jesus' - one a Quranic, the other of the Bible. Even when we allow you to be teased on the Quranic Jesus, where have you demonstrated the same love you have shown for Muhammad?

olabowale:

I want you just to think for a moment; Muhammad said that Jesus is not God nor son of God and had limited power, which God permitted him and that he was not a universal prophet, but only to the children of Israel alone.

Muhammad said this and that and the other. . . Can't you guys throw this childish talk away and grab your own Qur'an to read?!? So, Muhammad said so and so and so and so, dah-da-dah-da! And on top of that, Muhammad said Jesus was not a universal prophet, but only to the children of Israel alone, bah?

Na the same Muhammad talk this in the Qur'an, سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21, Verse 91:

"And (remember) her who guarded her chastity:

We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her

and her son a sign for all peoples

That is in your Qur'an!! Please let all this false claims stop.

olabowale:

This revelation, in the Qur'an, as the chapter known as Mariam, came prior Hijra to Ethiopia, at least few years before the Hijra to Madina. Muhammad lived all those years and yet Jesus, who you claimed is God/Son of God and has absolute power, did not speak with a loud voice from heaven, as he had done with Saul about his being persecuted, to reveal the falsehood of that statement which Muhammad said about him? You should ask yourself why didnt it happen.

The one reason why you didn't hear a loud voice from heaven is simply because YOU are not a prophet! It doesn't help your cause if you choose to be deliberately derisive of the Christian faith, olabowale. Seek understanding; not prejudice.

olabowale:

Since you do not know the quality of the honesty of the last prophet I need to tell you a snipet of it: There is a chapter in the Qur'an called Abasa or he frowned. This chapter as titled, came about because prophet Muhammad did not pay attention or as to indicate lack of given sttention to a blind man, immediately the blind man was seeking the attention of this prophet. The prophet was in the middle of propagation of his mission to some powerful individuals. He wanted the blind man to wait and be patient so that he can finish up with this powerful group of individual. But God sent revelation to make His prophet pay attention to the blind man! Muhammad, contrary to the maligning statement of the enemy of islam, even up to today, did not fail down as the verses of that chapter was revealed to him. See, he was honest enough to tell his companions about what was revealed and the reason it was revealed. He said of the blind man that because of you, my Lord remembered me. Please note that revelation wascoming to him for 23 years, which was the last 23 years of his life! Yet he said with humility and humbleness about his Lord that He remembered him!

Nice story. But any man could have done the same. Try something more challenging. . .like, what was Muhammad's attitude to people caught in sin and needed forgiveness so badly?

@babs787,

babs787:

I am not surprised at your response whenever you are cornered. I only added that as part of my explanation to John 14 v16 in which you claimed referred to Holy Spirit.

You haven't been able to demonstrate sanely any of the following with regards to John 14 and 16 --

(a) that the verses that speak of the Spirit was not in reference to the Holy Spirit

(b) that they could have been referring to Muhammad in any way

(c) that you had a clear understanding of WHO the Holy Spirit is

(d) the fact that NO Muslim scholar ever refers to Muhammad as "the Spirit"

When you have had a huge silence in the face of facts presented to you, you would only wish to claim that pilgrim.1 has been "cornered". My question is: BY WHO - you?!? Please don't make me laugh!

babs787:

You havent done that. You may assist your brother in answering my questions: was He "crucified' In JERUSALEM or outside and please what was his age when he was "crucified"?

If you want answers, I'll give them to you - I have always done that. But if you would keep playing this games of NEVER providing answers to the questions that are presented to you, then it's high time you woke up from your rude gimmicks.

Babs787, I asked you a series of questions on the thread dealing with your presuppositions of Muhammad in John 14 & 16. Go over to that thread and deal with those questions; then I will oblige you answers to the queries on the Crucifixion.

Meanwhile, you could start here with the same question on the subject:

In the Qur'an we read the following in Sura 4 v. 157:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary,
the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him,
but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein
are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture
to follow, for of a surety they killed him not"

Two questions:

(1) could you explain what is meant by the highlighted parts of that Sura?

(2) WHO was put on that Cross as a substitute that Muslims have claimed?

babs787:

Now let me ask you same question I asked your brother, if they "crucified" someone and he didnt die on the cross, do you still call that "crucifixion"?

Babs, WHO was put on that Cross?

babs787:

Provide answers and others will follow

This is the same LAZY scholarship of donces like Zakir who never answer questions and then duck them with 'provide answers and others will follow'. When have you ever answered a simple question, Babs?

When you settle down to reason, we can progress anything you think you might have to present. Otherwise, you may as well play this game and confirm that Muslims simply have nothing worth calling intelligence.

@olabowale,

olabowale:

@Pligrim.1: Glory belongs to Allah, alone. The Lord who exists without partner and capable of doing all things. Since He was complete before the "word", He continues to complete, even when the 'word' died a grusome death. He will continue to be complete until the end of time,

I think it is important to remember that Jesus, the WORD, is ALIVE!! Indeed, He died a most heinous death for our sakes, there's no denying that - because His death was in fulfillment of Biblical prohecies, like Isaiah 53. People may use all kinds of derisive language to speak about His death and resurrection; but would such people remember that He went to the Cross for them as well?

Now, it is even remarkable that Jesus Christ is also called "The Word" in the Hadith: "you better go to Jesus, the word of Allah and His Spirit" (Sahih Muslim, Book #001, Hadith #0380). Although Muslim scholars disavow the meaning of this and give it various connotations, so that it is rather in direct contradistinction to the essence of what is meant by "the Logos" in John 1:1.

Ask yourself for a moment, olabowale - why is it that in all the personages presented in the hadith just cited (Adam, Noah, Moses . . and Muhammad), only JESUS CHRIST is specifically called "THE Word of Allah" and "His Spirit"? Whatever it may mean is not the issue now. Rather, don't you suppose that there must have been indeed a deeper reason for that appellation in particular reference to only one Person and none else is ever called precisely by those terms in the Qur'an and Hadiths?

Whatever derision you may want to cast on Him, whatever ridicule or denial you may want to present as concerning Him, whatever arguments to discredit Him - Jesus loves you, and every other Muslim. He is not willing that anyone should perish, but that everyone may come to know the saving grace of His power to forgive and grant eternal Life to us!

olabowale:

Since you have not found in any record that a single companion actually sacrificed his/her parent or folk for Muhammad, it actually ends our discusssion.

Don't be too sure that none of his companions ever expressed the desire to kill their own kith and kiln in order to show devotion to Muhammad. I did not want to deliberately offend you; and that's why I remained with the issue of the veneration of the Black Stone.

olabowale:

But I will simply say to you that Muhammad's life history was painstakingly collected and recorded, along with the companions' interaction with him. So if only we will use our inner eye to see that it is probably recorded at the beginning of Islam. Your reading of it from hadith points out that even what is unsettling to the muslims and later on abrogated was recorded.

The problem in this kind of boasting is that it tends typically to selective reading of facts. If you put all things together and add Ibn Ishaq's record of Muhammad's life and activities, you will have enough to worry about that might last you a lifetime. We have discussed some of these issues in other threads, such as "Was Muhammad a Terrorist?" It is a staggering surprise that no Muslim has been able to honestly come forth and discuss why those things could not be so.

@olabowale,

olabowale:

It may disappoint you that preservation of live is a big thing in Islam coupled with your recognisition that respect should be accorded to parents. When my mother was a christian, she was loved as much as I love her now, except that am now happy that she is a muslima. In those days i prayed that she would not die in disbelief. Alhamdulillah, this prayer was accepted.

I'm glad for you and your mother.

However, what is really "disappointing" is that with all the talk of Islam respecting the "preservation of life", it is Muslims who have shown the utmost disregard for the lives of other people. If these dastardly acts were done in a corner of the earth, one might see reason to assume that it is merely the case of an extreme minority. But when it has become a global reach, and those who call for killing non-Muslims far outnumber and dwarf the 'peaceful' Muslims, we need to come forth and call a spade a spade.

How did Jesus Christ deal with His enemies who mocked, cursed and castigated Him? He was willingly to forgive them and seek their welfare.

How did Muhammad treat his enemies - those who satirized and mocked him? It was rather outcry, a call for assassination, cold-blooded murder, and threats - threats which have become a global phenomenon. You cannot claim that those you see in the picture below are "not Muslim" - they are Muslims and actually are out to react in the true spirit of Islam.

[img]http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:G14RnrKQwCd7dM:http://www.standwithus.com/gallery/cartoonprotest/LondonProtest04.jpg[/img] [img]http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:2EXuagvM5gzY7M:http://d.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20070622/capt.8ac0c5213f93448faef7228794959479.britain_rushdie_protest__lww102.jpg[/img]



What is the typical Muslim response to 'slander' and 'insult'? The reactive vocabulary include, among others: "butcher, slay, behead, exterminate." These are everyday realities from Muslims - and if the evidences are overowering, it won't matter that you're seeking to argue away from the facts on ground.

olabowale:

Please go to google video and enter the miracles of Muhammad. Under it you go to the work of Professor Z. Al-Najjar. From his work, you will see The Blackstone of the kaaba(A scientifi miracle). Please make your research within the British royal establishments, eg, Library and museum of natural History. I know you can do that for me.

Dear olabowale, I asked you just one simple question: "WHERE in the Qur'an did ALLAH instruct Muhammad to engage in the veneration of the Black Stone?" If you can't find the answer in the Qur'an, is it Professor Z. Al-Najjar on google that will speak on Muhammad's behalf?

Quite often, I wonder how people reason when asked simple straightforward questions. For all I could care less, the same Professor Al-Najjar could "scientifically" devise a good storyline for Esau's hoof travelling by midnight - which is not the same thing as explaining WHY that hoof should be venerated!!

The answer is there and staring us in the face. There was no reason for Muhammad to have engaged in the black stone ritual except for the obvious SHOW OFF to Pagans. QED.

olabowale:

I will love to have a word with your dad. Afterall we are humans, africans, nigerians, yorubas, etc. I again sent you my YIM.

He has already seen my rejoinders - he sent me a text, and infact cautioned me to be respectful the way I discuss with you. That is why I'm taking it easy with you, inspite of the many unsubstantiated issues you have posted.

Thank you for the email and YIM. Check them when I get home.

@olabowale,

olabowale:

By the way, is there any verse in the NEW TESTAMENT, that Jesus seemed to have used spirit/ghost to mean prophet/messenger. Eg. Good spirit/ghost to mean a true prophet/messenger of GOd, because what that prophet says comes to be fulfilled, in the appropriate time, while bad spirit/ghost is to indicate that the one who claimed to be prophet and and all his statement comes to past is not a prophet? This was the litmus of Jesus to prophethood or good/true spirit!

I may be mistaken, but at the moment your question doesn't seem to come clearly across to me. However, there are a good number of NT verses that distinguish between good spirits and evil spirits. I don't remember any verses where Jesus so used a spirit to mean "prophet/messenger"; for in the instances where He spoke of any other spirit (apart from the Holy Spirit), He did not simply use the word "spirit" alone.

The litmus test to prophethood or good/true spirit is not whether something someone spoke came to pass or not. Magicians and soothsayers who practise voodoo and divination also try to predict the future (these practices are 'haram' in the Bible - Deut. 18:10-12). But for the Lord Jesus, the test is whether or not people did the will of the FATHER (Matt. 7:21). Many people who would have tried rest their hopes on some form of mighty works will be greatly disappointed (vs. 22-23).

olabowale:

How is that prophet from the three prophets that John the baptist, was ask if he was one of them, yet he said he was not one of them? Has that prophet came and please do not tell us that it is the return of jesus that makes three. (Elijah, Messiah and that prophet; am just reminding you.)

Thank you for reminding me.

However, John did not claim to be "not one of them". Rather, "he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ" (John 1:20). That makes all the difference - he did not claim what he was not - for he was not the Christ. But he went on to tell them who he was according to God's prophetic calling upon his life (John 1:23).

Regards.

Pilgrim.1
You are blessed!

@topic
God created everything for His glory and praise

Praise the Lord!

Praise the Lord from the heavens!
Praise him from the skies!
2 Praise him, all his angels!
Praise him, all the armies of heaven!
3 Praise him, sun and moon!
Praise him, all you twinkling stars!
4 Praise him, skies above!
Praise him, vapors high above the clouds!
5 Let every created thing give praise to the Lord,
for he issued his command, and they came into being.
6 He set them in place forever and ever.
His decree will never be revoked.

7 Praise the Lord from the earth,
you creatures of the ocean depths,
8 fire and hail, snow and clouds,[a]
wind and weather that obey him,
9 mountains and all hills,
fruit trees and all cedars,
10 wild animals and all livestock,
small scurrying animals and birds,
11 kings of the earth and all people,
rulers and judges of the earth,
12 young men and young women,
old men and children.

13 Let them all praise the name of the Lord.
For his name is very great;
his glory towers over the earth and heaven!
14 He has made his people strong,
honoring his faithful ones—
the people of Israel who are close to him.

Praise the Lord!

@Pligrim.1:Good morning. I would hope that you do not spend too much time on nairaland, rather more on your academics.

I asked if I can connect with your father, I have not heard a clear yes or no! I will want to know your answer. I will privately provide you with my phone, if you wish.

Now then, the question of 3 prophets that was to come was asked of John the Baptist, if he was one of them. The answer he gave that that he was not any of the three. But two were mentioned by names to be Elijah, who had came before then, and probably they were expecting himto come back. So the issue of a prophet returning after he had left is not a unique thing restricted only to Jesus, from the Children of Israel religion. The second prophet was Messiah, who later came and started his mission, as Jesus son of Mary. We already agreed that he had came and he will return.

Now the issue of 'that prophet', is yet to be settled, if we examined the question posed to John the baptist. We will know from the question that the 'that prophet' was not identified by a known name. We also can not claim without using the baible that 'that prophet' will be fulfilled by the return of either Elijah of Jesus. So give me the name of 'that prophet', that is if you know it. I want clear and direct response. No beating around the bush. Has 'that prophet' came and be fulfilled according to the question asked John the baptist?

Spirit, as being classified as either good or bad, was used by Jesus in place of prophet. Jesus said in a particular verse of the Bible when he was describing how one would know a true prophet from a fake prophet. He ended the verse by using 'good spirit' for a true prophet and 'bad spirit' for a fake prophet. You should ask your pastor about this, then you may have a different understanding of another verse in the bible where Jesus was talking of the spirit that will come upon he, Jesus leaving the state and the spirit coming to teach/show  those who will follwo this spirit things that are necessary, which jesus did not teach before he was raised up!


About the muslim people who demostrated with all kind of bad behavior, even though I disagree with them: I must not fail to point out few things to you:

Have you seen any muslim society insulting Jesus or for that matter, any prophet, in the same wholesale manner that the non muslims insult the last prophet? Some non muslims will slander him without remorse. The danish guy even made of drawing of him, knowing fully well that there was no picture of him, because camera was discovered later! So the imagery of him and any prophet are all made up from falsehood. I blme the muslims because they demostrate only when muhammad is slandered. It should be the same for each and every prophet!

Will you not reflect then, that the non muslimshave no respect for islam and muslims? If I were to insult a member of any family, I should a family member to at least talk to me about the lie I must have spewed. So you expect the muslims 1.5 Billion people to just keep quite, so that it becomes a common thing which in the long run will become accepted and it will be deemed okay to insult Muhammad! This has got to stop. The process of stopping it maybe that the people are sued or demostrated against. But it is a weak faith at best to not do anything about it.

You conveniently fail to address the fact that Christian countries are already ganged up against the Muslims, with their MEGA Bombs, Miltary personnels raping and indiscriminately invading and killing and creating fear in the land of Islam. I watched a video, where a former ranger said he must have killed over 200 Iraqis. Yet he is just about 23-25, the age of my children! He said that they will enter a family home, at night and provoke the man in the house, by handling his wife, daughters, you name it. then the man may be killed anyhow along with his whole family! Thats after they may rape the women, or pile the men up in unislamic poses! Aburo, fear God and be a speak of truth.

You do not have to be muslim to see the evil treatments of the israelis on the palestinians. Among the palestinians, you have good christians, too. At least stand up for them. they are your people in faith, never mind the muslims. InshaAllah, if the muslims do not succed in this life, the one who died will be shuadaahs.

The veneration of the blackstone, you will find in the second chapter, for starter. Its in the section dealing in Pligrimage in makka. Come to think of it, you are pligrim. very interesting choice of name! Dr Al-Najjar, has scholarship in islam and there is no deficience of knowledge in Islam. You should take me up on my challenge of the blackstone. You have british Museum of natural History in London. You need to go there or at least communicate with them on this matter! Dont just dismiss it with a simple question and you will think the matter is settled. Nothing is off the table. Nothing.

The word/spirit, does not mean it is Him manifested! It means command that it comes to being. With or without Jesus, God Almighty is always complete, in every aspect. Is there a time that God was all by Himself, without Jesus, even before the beginning of any creation? Am talking about that time, that God is WHO the Muslim worship!

Aburo, you will never offend me. I am already prepared with patience to deal issues on nairaland. The history of Muhammad is an open book. Even his enemies did not have so much to say against him. You should define terrorism and that will be starting point so that we can have healthy discussion about it. However, you should find the opinions of non muslims about Muhammad, not just you typical televangelist, trying to cash in on your emotion!

Every soul, your and mine included is removed from the back of Adam, our father. We are all from Allah! When mankind are addressed, men are used, but it is not that it does not include women. So the spirit of God also includes all prophets! God says I breath my spirit into Adam. This was before Jesus!

this forum is supposed to be for christaians alone.it was meant to be a place where christians discuss what they have learnt in their varoius churches and for the edification of us all.ofcoures a non christain can still come in and have a peep if he or she wishes.

it has never been intended to be an avenue for debate.we should perharps get another forum for our debates.

the God i know has never been a God of confusion.he alone can convict us,turn our ways,draw us closer to himself and more importanatly REVEAL himself to us.pls christains and muslims in this forum dont forget this.

SHALOM.

Last sunday, i learnt to always wait for God's appointed time in everything that I do and in HIS time he would make all things beautiful.

God's time is the best

Cheers!

@pilgrims

Although the Trinity is a difficult concept for Muslims to grasp, does it help you to be derisive and sarcastic at Christians just because you don't understand anything in the Biblical faiths?

Really, common you couldnt provide answers to trinity when asked and if you are claiming that you have done so, are you prepared for same on trinity?

Muhammad said this and that and the other. . . Can't you guys throw this childish talk away and grab your own Qur'an to read?!? So, Muhammad said so and so and so and so, dah-da-dah-da! And on top of that, Muhammad said Jesus was not a universal prophet, but only to the children of Israel alone, bah?

Na the same Muhammad talk this in the Qur'an, سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21, Verse 91:

"And (remember) her who guarded her chastity:

We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her

and her son a sign for all peoples

That is in your Qur'an!! Please let all this false claims stop.

I have now seen that you have no knowledge of the Quran. Jesus will be the sign of the last hour and when you see him, know that the hour has come. Read the below verse for understanding.


Quran 43 v 61: And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgement): Therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: This is a Straight Way"

You haven't been able to demonstrate sanely any of the following with regards to John 14 and 16 --

(a) that the verses that speak of the Spirit was not in reference to the Holy Spirit

I have provided detailed explanation but its you that has not been able to defend what you are claiming.

(b) that they could have been referring to Muhammad in any way.

I gave you instances where they referred to Muhammed and not HOLY SPIRIT as christians have been thinking. The holy spirit has been in existence before Jesus and for him to have said another comforter, the comforter would surely be like him and not spirit as you are thinking. I still need you explanation om why the verse is referrign to Holy spirit.

(c) that you had a clear understanding of WHO the Holy Spirit is

I do but its you that is confusing yourself with that world. Christian world call spirits, evil, demon, etc but Islam has different words for spirit depending on the kind of spirit in question. Now for understanding, we have Jinn, angels, spirits. So it depends on the one you are referring to.

Maybe you should tell me all you know about spirit and I will give you Islamic view on same and types that we have.



(d) the fact that NO Muslim scholar ever refers to Muhammad as "the Spirit"


Funny how how you try to twist verse to fit your own ideas without proper analyses of same. I am still telling you that the verses made no reference to holy spirit. Another comforter cannot be holy spirit and I showed you a verse where spirit was used for human being.

When you have had a huge silence in the face of facts presented to you, you would only wish to claim that pilgrim.1 has been "cornered". My question is: BY WHO - you?!? Please don't make me laugh!

Now I will still present it to you in case you deliberately ignored it. Bros Adebowale told you that Jesus never read the bible and you provided a verse where he read the BOOK OF ELIAS, I asked you if

a. the bible is the same as the book of Elias

b. If he was given the bible or Gospel?

Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:02:19 PM
You havent done that. You may assist your brother in answering my questions: was He "crucified' In JERUSALEM or outside and please what was his age when he was "crucified"?

If you want answers, I'll give them to you - I have always done that. But if you would keep playing this games of NEVER providing answers to the questions that are presented to you, then it's high time you woke up from your rude gimmicks.

Please provide your answers

Babs787, I asked you a series of questions on the thread dealing with your presuppositions of Muhammad in John 14 & 16. Go over to that thread and deal with those questions; then I will oblige you answers to the queries on the Crucifixion.

I thought you have been reading posts but funny how you claimed tgat you have provided explanation when your supposed explanation have been refuted, your claim has no basis

Meanwhile, you could start here with the same question on the subject:

In the Qur'an we read the following in Sura 4 v. 157:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary,
the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him,
but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein
are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture
to follow, for of a surety they killed him not"

Okay

Two questions:

(1) could you explain what is meant by the highlighted parts of that Sura?

You didnt highlight anything

(2) WHO was put on that Cross as a substitute that Muslims have claimed?

My question go again, if they crucified someone and the person didnt die on the cross, will you still call that "crucifixion"?

Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:02:19 PM
Now let me ask you same question I asked your brother, if they "crucified" someone and he didnt die on the cross, do you still call that "crucifixion"?

Ba

bs, WHO was put on that Cross?

You havent answered my question baby pilgrim.

Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:02:19 PM
Provide answers and others will follow
This is the same LAZY scholarship of donces like Zakir who never answer questions and then duck them with 'provide answers and others will follow'. When have you ever answered a simple question, Babs?

I have known you to always ignore the issue and picking at what is immaterial. If you have any issue with Zakir, you may consult him wherever he is but lets face nairaland and attend to the issue at hand. Please provide answers to the issue of Jesus reading the bible and not book of Elias, also provide answer to the question on crucifixion.

When you settle down to reason, we can progress anything you think you might have to present. Otherwise, you may as well play this game and confirm that Muslims simply have nothing worth calling intelligence.

I am aware of your childlish approach to issue when cornered and it wont work with me, please was Jesus given the bible and did he read same or book of Elias?

@pilgrims

Although the Trinity is a difficult concept for Muslims to grasp, does it help you to be derisive and sarcastic at Christians just because you don't understand anything in the Biblical faiths?

Really, common you couldnt provide answers to trinity when asked and if you are claiming that you have done so, are you prepared for same on trinity?

Muhammad said this and that and the other. . . Can't you guys throw this childish talk away and grab your own Qur'an to read?!? So, Muhammad said so and so and so and so, dah-da-dah-da! And on top of that, Muhammad said Jesus was not a universal prophet, but only to the children of Israel alone, bah?

Na the same Muhammad talk this in the Qur'an, سورة الأنبياء , Al-Anbiya, Chap. 21, Verse 91:

"And (remember) her who guarded her chastity:

We breathed into her of Our spirit, and We made her

and her son a sign for all peoples

That is in your Qur'an!! Please let all this false claims stop.

I have now seen that you have no knowledge of the Quran. Jesus will be the sign of the last hour and when you see him, know that the hour has come. Read the below verse for understanding.


Quran 43 v 61: And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgement): Therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: This is a Straight Way"

You haven't been able to demonstrate sanely any of the following with regards to John 14 and 16 --

(a) that the verses that speak of the Spirit was not in reference to the Holy Spirit

I have provided detailed explanation but its you that has not been able to defend what you are claiming.

(b) that they could have been referring to Muhammad in any way.

I gave you instances where they referred to Muhammed and not HOLY SPIRIT as christians have been thinking. The holy spirit has been in existence before Jesus and for him to have said another comforter, the comforter would surely be like him and not spirit as you are thinking. I still need you explanation om why the verse is referrign to Holy spirit.

(c) that you had a clear understanding of WHO the Holy Spirit is

I do but its you that is confusing yourself with that world. Christian world call spirits, evil, demon, etc but Islam has different words for spirit depending on the kind of spirit in question. Now for understanding, we have Jinn, angels, spirits. So it depends on the one you are referring to.

Maybe you should tell me all you know about spirit and I will give you Islamic view on same and types that we have.



(d) the fact that NO Muslim scholar ever refers to Muhammad as "the Spirit"


Funny how how you try to twist verse to fit your own ideas without proper analyses of same. I am still telling you that the verses made no reference to holy spirit. Another comforter cannot be holy spirit and I showed you a verse where spirit was used for human being.

When you have had a huge silence in the face of facts presented to you, you would only wish to claim that pilgrim.1 has been "cornered". My question is: BY WHO - you?!? Please don't make me laugh!

Now I will still present it to you in case you deliberately ignored it. Bros Adebowale told you that Jesus never read the bible and you provided a verse where he read the BOOK OF ELIAS, I asked you if

a. the bible is the same as the book of Elias

b. If he was given the bible or Gospel?

Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:02:19 PM
You havent done that. You may assist your brother in answering my questions: was He "crucified' In JERUSALEM or outside and please what was his age when he was "crucified"?

If you want answers, I'll give them to you - I have always done that. But if you would keep playing this games of NEVER providing answers to the questions that are presented to you, then it's high time you woke up from your rude gimmicks.

Please provide your answers

Babs787, I asked you a series of questions on the thread dealing with your presuppositions of Muhammad in John 14 & 16. Go over to that thread and deal with those questions; then I will oblige you answers to the queries on the Crucifixion.

I thought you have been reading posts but funny how you claimed tgat you have provided explanation when your supposed explanation have been refuted, your claim has no basis

Meanwhile, you could start here with the same question on the subject:

In the Qur'an we read the following in Sura 4 v. 157:

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary,
the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him,
but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein
are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture
to follow, for of a surety they killed him not"

Okay

Two questions:

(1) could you explain what is meant by the highlighted parts of that Sura?

You didnt highlight anything

(2) WHO was put on that Cross as a substitute that Muslims have claimed?

My question go again, if they crucified someone and the person didnt die on the cross, will you still call that "crucifixion"?

Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:02:19 PM
Now let me ask you same question I asked your brother, if they "crucified" someone and he didnt die on the cross, do you still call that "crucifixion"?

Ba

bs, WHO was put on that Cross?

You havent answered my question baby pilgrim.

Quote from: babs787 on Yesterday at 04:02:19 PM
Provide answers and others will follow
This is the same LAZY scholarship of donces like Zakir who never answer questions and then duck them with 'provide answers and others will follow'. When have you ever answered a simple question, Babs?

I have known you to always ignore the issue and picking at what is immaterial. If you have any issue with Zakir, you may consult him wherever he is but lets face nairaland and attend to the issue at hand. Please provide answers to the issue of Jesus reading the bible and not book of Elias, also provide answer to the question on crucifixion.

When you settle down to reason, we can progress anything you think you might have to present. Otherwise, you may as well play this game and confirm that Muslims simply have nothing worth calling intelligence.

I am aware of your childlish approach to issue when cornered and it wont work with me, please was Jesus given the bible and did he read same or book of Elias?

Arguments

@ifyalways

Insert Quote
babs 787 please do open another thread for your arguments please.its really called for now.this forum is meant for CHILDREN OF GOD to discuss and edify themselves and not for some arguments please.i beg you with Gods name .

Sorry sister. I never meant to post anything here but responded when I read Davidylan and some apologist's mischief. Please carry on with your discussion.

SHALOM

SALAM

thanks dearie.i do appreciate that alot.

@Ifyalways: But you are achild of your father. The last time I checked,your surname is not God, nor nee God.

@Pligrim.1: In the quote of Surah Ambiyya, did you notice that Allah, used Plural for Himself and at the same time making it clear, that Jesus and his mother are separate and not inclusive of this plural form used? God said and We made her and her son; please pay attention that HE ALLAH did not say her and My son!

Thats the difference. God said that they will be sign for all peoples: You and all the christians refused to acknowledge Jesus as God have spoken about him, from the Qur'an. Some of you even say that his mother is mother of God, eg the catholics. Then the Jews, who he has a root in their tradition, refused to acknowledged his prophethood. Others did not even thought him to be anything.

Then the Muslims are commanded to acknowledge him, in the proper mearurement, like every other prophets. We are commanded not to discriminate between the prophets, (AS to all of them).

babs787:

I have now seen that you have no knowledge of the Quran. Jesus will be the sign of the last hour and when you see him, know that the hour has come. Read the below verse for understanding.

The hour for what? Muslims just blab "Jesus will be the sign of the last hour and yet they have no idea about the significance of the said hour. What happens in this hour? Allah comes down from al jannat? Muslims fly in the sky? Everybody falls down and dies?
How, where and when are muslims going to "see Him"?
How are muslims supposed to watch out for this coming?
Why is the islamic Jesus coming?

babs787:

Quran 43 v 61: And (Jesus) shall be a Sign (for the coming of) the Hour (of Judgement): Therefore have no doubt about the (Hour), but follow ye Me: This is a Straight Way"

Mohammed is alleged to be the "last and greatest" prophet and yet allah just had to borrow Jesus Christ as his sign of his confused hour?