Kabieosi:

Robots do not run by themselves
Robots follow instructions or algorithms
As per robots doing good, well that is contentious,
as it depends on whoever the operator is and the intent when using the robot

In as much I don't believe in Gos,your argument that human beings have no choice and that the actions we take are as a result of enviromental influences is wrong! Why?

The implication of your argument is that there should be no judicial system! Choices are real man. I'm on mobile now its difficult typing on it

wiegraf:

Long and short of it, rehabilitation and prevention. We 'modern' folk do not use revenge these days as an excuse to punish. And god wouldn't exactly have any reason to rehabilitate or prevent in heaven, would he?

Note, this is mostly about culpability, and when people do do crimes we do level some of the blame at society at large. I'll elaborate some more later, no time atm.

If you mentiin rehabilitation and prevention you have assigned a moral value (ie immorality) to it ? The question is 'on what basis ?'

Joshthefirst: sorry, go and read the bible. I thought you became agnostic by reading the bible and you don't know even basic stuff

Lol, I thought uve read the bible? Tell us all what you read.

Man has freewill, he uses it to break the law.

Angels have freewill, they can't use it to break the law.

Lol. My only regret in life is that I was ever a christian.

rationalmind:

Lol, I thought uve read the bible? Tell us all what you read.

Man has freewill, he uses it to break the law.

Angels have freewill, they can't use it to break the law.

Lol. My only regret in life is that I was ever a christian.

rationalmind:

The guy is desperately trying to avoid the question

He's busy looking for a copout for the angels...lol

david_hume:

The guy is desperately trying to avoid the question

He's busy looking for a copout for the angels...lol

he must be searching answeringgenesis for answers

I'm sorry, but I would not justify foolishness with an answer.

Go and search on what God did to rebellious angels.

They're even encouraging themselves in their ignorance.

Joshthefirst: I'm sorry, but I would not justify foolishness with an answer.

Go and search on what God did to rebellious angels.

They're even encouraging themselves in their ignorance.

And since then, no angel has rebelled again or God no longer deals with them.

Clap for yourslef

rationalmind:

Why are you people so good at twisting arguments? What has punishment for crime gotten to do with Gods punishment for exercising our freewill.

There is no twist. i asked "should anyone be punished at all" and you said No. God punished man for a crime, remember? He gave man instructions and man did not keep them. Crime is 1 : an act or the commission of an act that is forbidden or the omission of a duty that is commanded by a public law and that makes the offender liable to punishment by that law;(merriam webster).
Are you stating that Adam did not commit an act forbidden?

i used to think that humans are unique because of freedom of choice, now i hear that angels have free will just like humans.

why all these confusion just to prove a false point.

pls where did the bible say angels have freewill? why are bad angels just bad(like the one who left with lucifer) and good angels just good. why has no angel used his freewill to commit sin since lucifer fell? now i am confused even more

frank3.16:
i used to think that humans are unique because of freedom of choice, now i hear that angels have free will just like humans.

why all these confusion just to prove a false point.

pls where did the bible say angels have freewill? why are bad angels just bad(like the one who left with lucifer) and good angels just good. why has no angel used his freewill to commit sin since lucifer fell? now i am confused even more

who told you all these things? You are the one who has confused yourself.

Go and study the bible about angels.

wiegraf:

My car has 4 doors, therefore 1 + 1 = 3?

I don't understand what you mean to say here, wiegraf.

Nice to see you speak of "logic" and not proper logic. I did tell you I was talking of mathematical (read: abstract), objective truths, yes? So what does this have to do with anything? How does this affect the fact that 1 + 1 =2?

Wiegraf, 1 place + 1 other place = 2 places. 1 object does not exist in 2 mutually exclusive places at once, not unless there is something we don't know. 1 state + 1 other state = 2 states. 1 object does not exist in 2 mutually exclusive states at once, not unless there is something we don't know.

The behavior of the electron on the Quantum level suggests that 1 + 1 = 1 or 1 = 2. But that's just mathematically illogical, is it not?

Now, a boson has properties that make it behave (apparently, as they are fields some would tell you, in other words some say that space is made up of....bosons, so you're asking how can space share space, see? But we can ignore that) counter intuitively to you, and then?

To elaborate, some schools of QM also assert that something comes from nothing, which can be written as 0!=0. Cool. They don't, however, write new math which says 0!=1. That's obviously silly. They build their math around probabilities. Note again: they never anywhere change the universal objective rule, 0=0. In order to work around that they account for both 0, 1 or x, but they never change the laws of math, that's impossible. They never write in their equations 1 + 1 = 3. Similar things are applied to equations dealing with bosons, no?

Dude, math is a way of describing things we encounter in life. Math is essentially adjectival. You don't talk about laws of math. You talk about mathematical expressions. What that means is that you don't reallt talk about mathematical truths, you talk about truths found in the universe and given expression through mathematical symbols.

So what happens is that math develops just like any other language. We continue to find new and more effective ways of expressing the things we discover in life. Quantum physics, like any other physics, has forced math to expand even into using something hitherto meaningless to try to express a Quantum idea, that is, your 0! = 0 "confusion".

As such, there is no reason to speak of God being bound by inexistent mathematical laws. We use math to describe what we find in God's world. Math is therefore how we describe the laws that God Himself invented to define creation. And since He can override those laws, math is sometimes too weak to describe His actiobs and we find situations where 5 > 5000, a "meaningless" expression or we simply discover new laws that force us to wonder if really 1 = 2 a la Quantum Mechanics.

As for the part about bosons, everything is space na, if you want to think about it like that.

So, again, can god make 1+1=3? Can he write correct equations with 1+1=3?

The courts somewhere in abuja have absolute authority apparently, they still cannot divide by zero. That's impossible. I have absolute authority over my pipi, I still can't direct it into old skool jena jameson. Even if she were willing, as I have no time machine. Exactly when did absolute authority mean the ability to contradict logic?

The courts in Abuja did not create everything. So, they can hardly tweak reality enough to cause division by zero to be possible.

There are schools of thought that will argue that it's the other way around for you and your "pipi".

Logic is God?

Also, if he has absolute authority over everything, including us etc, exactly how is he not culpable for our sins? Especially if he can rewrite the laws, as you (comically) assert?

Relate having absolute authority over man to culpability for man's sin.

And note, your talk of god creating everything. Very simple question, if god created existence, then how did god come into existence?

The question lacks meaning and definition. If God "comes into existence" He or it cannot be God. The meaning of God involves complete self-existence, eternal existence without beginning or end.

rationalmind:

Why are you people so good at twisting arguments? What has punishment for crime gotten to do with Gods punishment for exercising our freewill.

"Punishment for exercising our free will" indeed.

Ihedinobi:
Who said He couldn't? Did I not just describe his nature? Disobedience came about by choice.


Am I wrong?

It is YOUR postulation that sin will exist as long as there is free will. It is up to you to prove it.

Listen, bros, I suggest you stop wasting server space running around shooting yourself left right centre. You seem to suddenly forget fermions, and how you could claim there are no mathematical truths is beyond me.......

Anyways, now, simple. No more nonsense please. You assert your god can make 1+1=3 (oh wow).. In other words, logic is useless as he can supersede it, anything goes to him. Anything, no if's or but's, ok? As that is the case

[size=15pt]WHY DIDN'T GOD CREATE SINLESS FREEWILL??[/size]

Simple question. Please, don't insult our intelligence. Thank you.

wiegraf:

Listen, bros, I suggest you stop wasting server space running around shooting yourself left right centre. You seem to suddenly forget fermions, and how you could claim there are no mathematical truths is beyond me.......

Anyways, now, simple. No more nonsense please. You assert your god can make 1+1=3 (oh wow).. In other words, logic is useless as he can supersede it, anything goes to him. Anything, no if's or but's, ok? As that is the case

[size=15pt]WHY DIDN'T GOD CREATE SINLESS FREEWILL??[/size]

Simple question. Please, don't insult our intelligence. Thank you.

I hope you're joking my good man. You have insulted your own intelligence by asking such a question, contradicting in itself.

Any adjective like such in your question; "sinless" before freewill makes freewill cease to be freewill.


I sincerely hope you're joking.


And you have not answered my question.

The Harbinger ~:
I hope you're joking my good man. You have insulted your own intelligence by asking such a question, contradicting in itself.

Any adjective like such in your question; "sinless" before freewill makes freewill cease to be freewill.


I sincerely hope you're joking.


And you have not answered my question.

I hope you are joking and not having issues comprehending the simplest of things.

Uyi's position is that god can make 1+1=3. In other words, he isn't subject to logic. He has repeated this how many times now?

Now, if god isn't subject to reason, again, I ask

[size=15pt]WHY DIDN'T GOD CREATE SINLESS FREEWILL??[/size]

Don't forget, god isn't subject to reason, therefore anything goes. I hope that clears that up.

As for your post, like I already said, this here is mostly about culpability, not omnixx whargarbl. Even without the omnixx nonsense, he is still very culpable for the 'sins' of man. But if you persist, and you, unlike great thinker @ihe accept that god is subject to reason, then please, do tell exactly how god himself can have freewill if he's omniscient? If he does not act exactly the way he has predicted, then exactly how does he be omniscient?

Thank you.

wiegraf:


[size=15pt]WHY DIDN'T GOD CREATE SINLESS FREEWILL??[/size]

How anyone can ask such a question as this, and still remain deluded that he is a rational being, is beyond me.

Does the above look like freewill to you? You are asking God to create a square circle, and you are the same person who shouts that square circles are a logical impossibility.

You need help. Your case is becoming critical.

Deep Sight:

How anyone can ask such a question as this, and still remain deluded that he is a rational being, is beyond me.

Does the above look like freewill to you? You are asking God to create a square circle, and you are the same person who shouts that square circles are a logical impossibility.

You need help. Your case is becoming critical.

You've sunk to the level of poor trolling?

wiegraf:

You've sunk to the level of poor trolling?

Exactly. Where was deepsight when Ihe was asserting God can make 1+1=3? If he can do that, why is it difficult to create sinless freewill.

Let's all remb he made dry bones human, he made a donkey talk, he made singing make a fence collapse. These are seemingly impossible and contradictory things. Why then is it difficult to create a sinless man with freewill?

The Harbinger ~:
I hope you're joking my good man. You have insulted your own intelligence by asking such a question, contradicting in itself.

Any adjective like such in your question; "sinless" before freewill makes freewill cease to be freewill.


I sincerely hope you're joking.


And you have not answered my question.

If god cannot create sinless freewill then he is not omnipotent

The Harbinger ~:
I hope you're joking my good man. You have insulted your own intelligence by asking such a question, contradicting in itself.

Any adjective like such in your question; "sinless" before freewill makes freewill cease to be freewill.


I sincerely hope you're joking.


And you have not answered my question.

Joshthefirst said that angels have free will.
YOU said that sin comes with free will.
Therefore, there's no guarantee that angel Gabriel won't sin in the future!
And if man retains his free will in heaven, there's no guarantee that he won't use it to commit sin!

Is this what y'all are trying to tell us?

wiegraf:

I hope you are joking and not having issues comprehending the simplest of things.

Uyi's position is that god can make 1+1=3. In other words, he isn't subject to logic. He has repeated this how many times now?

Now, if god isn't subject to reason, again, I ask

[size=15pt]WHY DIDN'T GOD CREATE SINLESS FREEWILL??[/size]

Don't forget, god isn't subject to reason, therefore anything goes. I hope that clears that up.

It seems you're really serious with the question, and others follow this your irrational line of thinking.
God was creating human beings, who would be subject to reason, that's why he made them with freewill.
God chose to create human beings. There is no such attribute as sinless freewill man. It is contradictory in itself and silly. Unless you would want God to change the definition of reality, which I don't see him doing any time soon because of impotent thinking.

As for your post, like I already said, this here is mostly about culpability, not omnixx whargarbl. Even without the omnixx nonsense, he is still very culpable for the 'sins' of man. But if you persist, and you, unlike great thinker @ihe accept that god is subject to reason, then please, do tell exactly how god himself can have freewill if he's omniscient? If he does not act exactly the way he has predicted, then exactly how does he be omniscient?

Thank you.

God chooses his own ways and his own reactions to our choices. God can never be subject to reason. But we know his character, and why would he choose to break reason in some cases without having a reason?

rationalmind:

Exactly. Where was deepsight when Ihe was asserting God can make 1+1=3? If he can do that, why is it difficult to create sinless freewill.

Let's all remb he made dry bones human, he made a donkey talk, he made singing make a fence collapse. These are seemingly impossible and contradictory things. Why then is it difficult to create a sinless man with freewill?

I'm sorry, but saying God should create "sinless freewill" is saying he should change the actual definitions of those words in our case of reality. God does what he pleases. And he certainly wouldn't do what you want(which would mean starting over) because of your unbelieving silliness.

God chose to make man, in his own image. He saw it good.

nnofaith: If god cannot create sinless freewill then he is not omnipotent

it is silly of you to make this conclusion.

Define what you want God to create first then: what is "sinless freewill" then.

What would it entail in a created thing?

david_hume:

Joshthefirst said that angels have free will.
YOU said that sin comes with free will.
Therefore, there's no guarantee that angel Gabriel won't sin in the future!
And if man retains his free will in heaven, there's no guarantee that he won't use it to commit sin!

Is this what y'all are trying to tell us?

yes, sin can come with freewill.

There is no guarantee that angel gabriel won't sin in the future if he chooses to do so. But I believe angel gabriel has learned his lesson from his contemporaries in the bible who failed woefully in their sin and rebellion against God.(You should read the bible to have better understanding of my words), I don't think angels will rebel again, having seen its long term effects.

But mind you. The bible tells of a time when sin will be dealt with completely. By removing all sinful elements (who have shown so by their freewill) and isolating them from the good.

wiegraf:

In other words, logic is useless as he can supersede it, anything goes to him. Anything, no if's or but's, ok? As that is the case

How do you arrive at the position of 'uselessness'? Are the things you supersede to be considered useless?

[size=15pt]WHY DIDN'T GOD CREATE SINLESS FREEWILL??[/size]

Simple question. Please, don't insult our intelligence. Thank you.

Like you flawed in your OP analogy, you have again thrown a flawed question. Despite that anyway, your answer would be because there was a test required, an overcoming. Life/Time is a school man needs to pass.

Lets keep it simple. I have willed to sleep and never wake, to wake into in existence. Yet my free will choice is not honored. I wake up to another day full of possibilities to sin (which could be something as natural as feeling attraction for or sleeping with a woman), I am sent demons to torment me in the current world then to burn forever, anyway I don't want to say anything blasphemous sha...

I believe any man can use freewill to sacrifice himself and wash entirely the sins of other men. So also redefine what is good and bad, therefore placing his freewill rightly above morals.

The Harbinger ~:
It seems you're really serious with the question, and others follow this your irrational line of thinking.
God was creating human beings, who would be subject to reason, that's why he made them with freewill.
God chose to create human beings. There is no such attribute as sinless freewill man. It is contradictory in itself and silly. Unless you would want God to change the definition of reality, which I don't see him doing any time soon because of impotent thinking.

God chooses his own ways and his own reactions to our choices. God can never be subject to reason. But we know his character, and why would he choose to break reason in some cases without having a reason?

Look at that bolded. Look at it and try your bestestestest to think on it. I could not have been any clearer in my earlier post....

If we told you religion rots the brains, you'd whine. What in the world??

How it blinds you from seeing the so glaringly obvious is beyond me.... Just as some you mock the likes of onyfrank... yet jewish zombie

Anyways, disregarding that, how in the world is this about your opinion? Also are you dictating to your omnipotent overlord what he can and cannot do? This is really simple, try to limit shooting yourself in the foot again; must all of god's own future actions take place as foretold?

Really simple.

Thanks

Sorry. Just going through this thread. Forgive me if a few of the points have already been addressed.

The Harbinger ~:

Op, freewill and Gods omniscience are parallel. God just knows the future.And we make our choices.They are exclusive.

No, except you attempt to redefine omniscience.

The Harbinger ~:

Imagine time travel is possible, and you travel to the future as an observer. You know how everything will play out.

Imagine that you go into the future and observe yourself killing your son. When you get back to the present, wouldn't that knowledge influence your present decisions? Wouldn't you make attempts to ensure you do not kill your son? What if you end up not killing him?

The Harbinger ~:

That does not stop people from making their choices in the past, or spoil people's freewill. So we understand that God does not want people to
go to hell from his very act of dieing for them and justifying them through Jesus Christ. God does not want anyone to go to hell. The bible
also says God is our judge. So that means he must give each person a chance to make the right choice.

The point has been made on this board repeatedly. God knows exactly what choice you'll make. That's omniscience. I would even venture to say that from an omniscient's being perspective, we have no choice really. Just like the characters in a story.

The Harbinger ~:

The very fact that God is angry when relating with men show he does not enforce his omniscience when he relates with us. I hope you're clear.
God bless.

Yeah, i think our choices can also surprise God.

The Harbinger ~:
yes, sin can come with freewill.

There is no guarantee that angel gabriel won't sin in the future if he chooses to do so. But I believe angel gabriel has learned his lesson from his contemporaries in the bible who failed woefully in their sin and rebellion against God.(You should read the bible to have better understanding of my words), I don't think angels will rebel again, having seen its long term effects.

But mind you. The bible tells of a time when sin will be dealt with completely. By removing all sinful elements (who have shown so by their freewill) and isolating them from the good.

Why didn't God just isolate satan from the garden of Eden in the first place?

OP is trying harder to convince and justify his and/or herself rather than us.
By comparing the essentials of the human mind, conscience, and yet the right to choose, with the primal animal instincts of lions.

Humanity is way beyond eat, sleep, poo and reproduce as compared to animals.

Life, love, hate, dreams and aspiration, emotions, and most importantly common sense is what makes up the human experience.

Although the thread was an attempt (yet a failed one) to damn religion, however, long before the advent of religion, the golden rule had applied, for every action, there is a reaction, whatever you sow you shall reap. Every culture, every race. So you can't just run around jungle style, doing as you wish all in the name of free will and predestination or whatever you call it.

^^^^
Apparently, you lost the plot. You should have gone through the thread.