wiegraf:

DING DING DING

So, why is god complaining?

The people roasting in hell, do you think they asked to be created? How is god doing them any favors?

pls read my complete post! I am on ur side...sort of!!

Ranchhoddas: pls read my complete post! I am on ur side...sort of!!

I never said you weren't, I was highlighting the point. Though I can see how it would seem otherwise. You're an agnostic, are you not?

@ihe, can you come and address your folly please?

The Harbinger ~:
angels can't be redeemed Mr. There is no salvation available for them. Once they rebel, they have rebelled.

wtf How is this a reasonable answer to my question? State the purpose of Man and Angels and how that of man required a test while angels didn't and this is the nonsense you could come up with?

Angels were created already built up. And they were damned forever when they rebelled, because they were already built up. Do good to study these matters before embarrasing yourself publicly.

i.diot. As man was not already built up according to you, is he not still damned forever for rebelling? What nonsense are you spewing here?
If after 'studying' the matter this is your best reply then by all means SHIFT!

The unfortunate thing is the way people more foolish cheer you on in your ignorance.

lol, butthurt much?

rationalmind: Hehehehe, mr troll, muskeeto n david-hume, you people are smacking them really down

Mr, you seem to have forgotten to reply this my post.
There is no twist. i asked "should anyone be punished at all" and you said No. God punished man for a crime, remember? He gave man instructions and man did not keep them. Crime is 1 : an act or the commission of an act that is forbidden or the omission of a duty that is commanded by a public law and that makes the offender liable to punishment by that law;(merriam webster).
Are you stating that Adam did not commit an act forbidden?

i do not think your aim should be about smacking people really down(whatever that means), but you should learn or hope to learn from discussion. We're not talking childs play here ithink.

Obalende: Lets keep it simple. I have willed to sleep and never wake, to wake into in existence. Yet my free will choice is not honored. I wake up to another day full of possibilities to sin (which could be something as natural as feeling attraction for or sleeping with a woman), I am sent demons to torment me in the current world then to burn forever, anyway I don't want to say anything blasphemous sha...

You seem to mistake the meaning of freedom/free will. Free will connotes the ability to decide, to make decisions, make intelligent choice, not just on instinct. It is not about wonderland wishes being honored.
Like for instance, you are not in prison physically. You have freedom. Freedom has definition and limits. i cannot argue that you do not have freedom as you're not in prison. you have freedom to go to school, to the internet, to vote, to marry, etc. but you do not have the freedom to go rob a bank or kill people or do anything criminal. It would be crass of you to whine that you do not have freedom because you can't do the forbidden.

Kay 17: I believe any man can use freewill to sacrifice himself and wash entirely the sins of other men. So also redefine what is good and bad, therefore placing his freewill rightly above morals.

This is senseless, can you be clearer please? Thanks.

david_hume:


Why didn't God just isolate satan from the garden of Eden in the first place?

Errr, he was the test question. Your question should border on why Adam failed the test and why you are flunking the test, and how you can pass.

Ranchhoddas: you reap what u sow!!is God subject to that?if He is then i can argue that He is reaping what He has sown viz:imperfect humans,negligence of duty(He could have just made the garden of eden out of bounds to lucifer or made the forbidden tree inaccessible(He has done it to the tree of life right?)so i can say all the sin in the world is just God reaping what he has sown unless u want to say He is not subject to your so called golden rule...i hope say i never blaspheme!!

Stop ranting and start thinking. Harvest day is judgement time which is the future, commonly called the last day. There would be an innumerable multitude that have overcome. Would you be among? They overcome by the blood of the Lamb Jesus.
1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Mr Troll: Why must man be tested? Were the angels tested before they were created directly into heaven? Wetin im de test us for, knowing the final outcome already. Do you people think at all?

So much presuppositions all at once. Testing BTW is like refining. Like refining gold. Gold has to be tested to bring out the quality. The smith does not leave gold unrefined just because he knows the quality.
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Joshthefirst: you're always making a mistake and repeating the same thing in the bolded. How many times have I stated that Gods knowledge of you does not infringe on your choices and actions? How many times? Your choices make up his ultimate knowledge, not the other way around. Examine Gods actions and tell me if his will always gets done.

Are you purposely being obtuse or just disingenuous?

First of all you claimed God knows the choices we make before we make them. Now you say our choices make up his ultimate knowledge.

I think I'll let it rest for now? It seems no amount of sophistry can wish this away. Enjoy your weekend.

Mr Troll: Apart from the comic value, Nigeria has been bludgeoned by religion for far too long. People need to open their eyes, even if they want to believe in pikiwoki it should not interfere with the running of the country. Nobody should look at me askance because i don't share their delusion. I sincerely wish for Nigeria to be a truly secular nation so hat everybody can keep their particular delusion to themselves and i can sue any church nearby for disturbing my night sleep. . .

Good you said religion, not godliness or righteousness. Righteousness continues to exalt a nation till tomorrow. However, you also have no right to look at others askance because they do not share your belief or viewpoint. Practice your demand too.
For your wishes, keep them to your self and in your fantasy world, or better still throw them away and embrace righteousness and wisdom.

Image123:

Mr, you seem to have forgotten to reply this my post.
There is no twist. i asked "should anyone be punished at all" and you said No. God punished man for a crime, remember? He gave man instructions and man did not keep them. Crime is 1 : an act or the commission of an act that is forbidden or the omission of a duty that is commanded by a public law and that makes the offender liable to punishment by that law;(merriam webster).
Are you stating that Adam did not commit an act forbidden?

i do not think your aim should be about smacking people really down(whatever that means), but you should learn or hope to learn from discussion. We're not talking childs play here ithink.

The reason I didn't reply was because I don't think you said anything worth responding to. Here you are comparing punishment for crime here on earth with Gods ETERNAL punishment for exercising freewill he himself gave us.

And I thought its obvious what I said about smacking down was a joke.

rationalmind:
And I thought its obvious what I said about smacking down was a joke.

You shouldn't be so hard on retards.

aManFromMars:
You shouldn't be so hard on retards.

The Harbinger ~:
God is reaping a multitude for heaven foolish man. As I said, you should read the bible before speaking in plain ignorance.

Foolish response as usual!

What multitude are you talking about?
You seem to have forgotten the following:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matthew 7:13
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luke 13:24
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:21

Image123:

Errr, he was the test question. Your question should border on why Adam failed the test and why you are flunking the test, and how you can pass.

Why the test in the first place?
If he was such a perfect God, and he's sure of his creative abilities, why did he need to set up tests to verify?

Definitely, he knew that something might be wrong with his work. After seeing how woeful the experiment of Lucifer and co went.

But instead of owning up to his f*ck up, he deflects the blame to his miserable creation!
That is just low even by human standards!

Image123:

Stop ranting and start thinking. Harvest day is judgement time which is the future, commonly called the last day. There would be an innumerable multitude that have overcome. Would you be among? They overcome by the blood of the Lamb Jesus.
1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

and how does this respond to my post?

wiegraf:

I never said you weren't, I was highlighting the point. Though I can see how it would seem otherwise. You're an agnostic, are you not?

@ihe, can you come and address your folly please?

i still don't know what i am...i consider myself a skeptic though i enjoy church activities.nairaland enlightens and gives me perspective.

rationalmind:

The reason I didn't reply was because I don't think you said anything worth responding to. Here you are comparing punishment for crime here on earth with Gods ETERNAL punishment for exercising freewill he himself gave us.

And I thought its obvious what I said about smacking down was a joke.

And why do you think it incomparable? Did Adam not commit a crime? Is it okay for man to punish a crime and not okay for God to punish a crime?
i do not think we're joking here, eternity is not child's play BTW. Hopefully, yo don't lose your voice this time again, you'll need it for eternity.

david_hume:

Why the test in the first place?
If he was such a perfect God, and he's sure of his creative abilities, why did he need to set up tests to verify?

Definitely, he knew that something might be wrong with his work. After seeing how woeful the experiment of Lucifer and co went.

But instead of owning up to his f*ck up, he deflects the blame to his miserable creation!
That is just low even by human standards!

i see you're new to the world of production. When something is made, produced or manufactured, it has to be tested and refined. Tests are carred out through surveys, research and simulations. Then the product itself is tested against weather, heat, friction, time etc. You might need to tke an excursion to a manufactyring plant to appreciate production. The nice 'perfect' cars, watches, footballs, foods etc that you use daily are so tested before goods are called finished. Man's case is similar, the world is our testing ground. It is expedient that we overcome. The overcomer will inherit life, the ones who do not overcome will be thrashed. It is that basic.

david_hume:

Why the test in the first place?
If he was such a perfect God, and he's sure of his creative abilities, why did he need to set up tests to verify?

Definitely, he knew that something might be wrong with his work. After seeing how woeful the experiment of Lucifer and co went.

But instead of owning up to his f*ck up, he deflects the blame to his miserable creation!
That is just low even by human standards!

i see you're new to the world of production. When something is made, produced or manufactured, it has to be tested and refined. Tests are carred out through surveys, research and simulations. Then the product itself is tested against weather, heat, friction, time etc. You might need to tke an excursion to a manufactyring plant to appreciate production. The nice 'perfect' cars, watches, footballs, foods etc that you use daily are so tested before goods are called finished. Man's case is similar, the world is our testing ground. It is expedient that we overcome. The overcomer will inherit life, the ones who do not overcome will be thrashed. It is that basic.

wiegraf:

Well, if you actually thought you added any value to this convo...well..... You only demonstrated how religion poisons the mind, terribly. You say god isn't subject to reason, yet he cannot make sinless freewill

Read that again you eediot?! Do you require a diagram?! Mayhaps in crayons as well...

Stoopid people don't often know they're stoopid. Actually, this has been [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect]studied[/url].

Kudos

lol. After seeing the futile foolishness of saying God does not have freewill you resort to this again?

Sorry, but I've explained why saying God should create "sinless freewill" is foolish and self destructive in itself. That God is above reason does not mean he will subscribe to foolishness.

Mr Troll: wtf How is this a reasonable answer to my question? State the purpose of Man and Angels and how that of man required a test while angels didn't and this is the nonsense you could come up with?

angels are made complete and with no need of refining through tests. They are simply messengers. That is why when they rebel, there is no salvation for them.

i.diot. As man was not already built up according to you, is he not still damned forever for rebelling? What nonsense are you spewing here?
If after 'studying' the matter this is your best reply then by all means SHIFT!

excuse me? The test was supposed to make him better. He simply failed the test and even became a criminal. You are not just damned for rebellion, you are damned in these days for refusing to take the solution for your rebellion, thereby bearing the full responsibility for your actions. Simple.
Find time to read the bible before arguing without complete natural knowledge of what you're arguing about sir. Thank you.

lol, butthurt much?

lol.

The Harbinger ~:
lol. After seeing the futile foolishness of saying God does not have freewill you resort to this again?

Sorry, but I've explained why saying God should create "sinless freewill" is foolish and self destructive in itself. That God is above reason does not mean he will subscribe to foolishness.

Good work. . . . but you are wasting your time with this man.

Ranchhoddas: and how does this respond to my post?

You didn't see how because you were ranting. You were going on about God reaping. simply said, slow down. Reaping time, harvest time is still future, not now. Don't count your chickens before they're hatched(that's basic primary school advice, right?). Harvest time will be the last day, Judgement day. Don't conclude the scres before the Referee blws the final whistle. There would be an innumerable multitude of people that have overcome. We know the final scores. What should flood your thoughts is "will you overcome?"

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth
that Jesus is the Son of God?

Image123:

So much presuppositions all at once. Testing BTW is like refining. Like refining gold. Gold has to be tested to bring out the quality. The smith does not leave gold unrefined just because he knows the quality.
1Pe 1:7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

thank you for your words sir.

Deep Sight:

Good work. . . . but you are wasting your time with this man.

lol.

david_hume:

Foolish response as usual!

What multitude are you talking about?
You seem to have forgotten the following:

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Matthew 7:14
Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Matthew 7:13
Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
Luke 13:24
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Matthew 7:21

always try to understand what the bible says.
here is what the bible says in direct correlation with tribulations(tests) and heaven:

Revelation 7:9-12 I looked again. I saw a huge crowd, too huge to count. Everyone was there—all nations and tribes, all races and languages. And they were standing, dressed in white robes and waving palm branches, standing before the Throne and the Lamb and heartily singing:
Salvation to our God on his Throne! Salvation to the Lamb! All who were standing around the Throne—
...
13-14 Just then one of the Elders addressed me: "Who are these dressed in white robes, and where did they come from?" Taken aback, I said, "O Sir, I have no idea—but you must know."

15-17 Then he told me, "These are those who come from the great tribulation, and they've washed their robes, scrubbed them clean in the blood of the Lamb. That's why they're standing before God's Throne.

Image123:

i see you're new to the world of production. When something is made, produced or manufactured, it has to be tested and refined. Tests are carred out through surveys, research and simulations. Then the product itself is tested against weather, heat, friction, time etc. You might need to tke an excursion to a manufactyring plant to appreciate production. The nice 'perfect' cars, watches, footballs, foods etc that you use daily are so tested before goods are called finished. Man's case is similar, the world is our testing ground. It is expedient that we overcome. The overcomer will inherit life, the ones who do not overcome will be thrashed. It is that basic.

So out of curiosity, you're comparing the manufacturing processes of humans to the manufacturing process of a perfect heavenly being? If that was the case did he also research and do simulations also? Does he engage in division of labour? maybe some angels assisted him in creating Adam, that's why he messed up, since his previous product failed and his next product also failed

JayFK:

So out of curiosity, you're comparing the manufacturing processes of humans to the manufacturing process of a perfect heavenly being?

He obviously forgets we do all that because we aren't perfect.


His ways are not our ways, but sometimes sha.. God dey learn from man.

aManFromMars:
He obviously forgets we do all that because we aren't perfect.


His ways are not our ways, but sometimes sha.. God dey learn from man.

Hmm now I get it, a supposedly perfect God created products oh, and wasn't too sure about the quality so just had to test to be certain lol

JayFK:

Hmm now I get it, a supposedly perfect God created products oh, and wasn't too sure about the quality so just had to test to be certain lol

Christian logic, what would the world be without it..