How Good Is God? - Religion (2) - Nairaland
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Have You Ever Just Sat And Thought About How Good God Is? / Is GOD GOOD TO YOU THIS YEAR / Is "God" Of The Old Testament Satan? (2) (3) (4)
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| Re: How Good Is God? by chrisviral(m): 4:41pm On Aug 18, 2014 |
finofaya: Oh. It looks clear to me.I said God is everything before creation, he wasn't particularly good or evil, he was everything. God didn't make us with desires for good, Nah, he made us just like him, with free will to choose either to do evil or good, but he did say he will show preference to good. It's simple I am God and I am everything, you are my sons and I want you all to do good and get a reward, do evil and I purnish you. Simple. |
| Re: How Good Is God? by finofaya: 6:01pm On Aug 18, 2014 |
macof: Bravo Op! Thanks bro. But this one pass issue of bible o |
| Re: How Good Is God? by finofaya: 7:09pm On Aug 18, 2014 |
chrisviral: Toh. We are still dragging the same points. When you say "God was everything", does that include good and evil? And you agree that he is good and bad, in equal measure. I still have to ask; why do you think he would prefer to do good things? If it is because he said so, how do you know you can trust him, since he can have good or bad motives for saying so? I just want to know how you see it 1 Like |
| Re: How Good Is God? by chrisviral(m): 9:01am On Aug 19, 2014 |
finofaya: Let me note a verse in the bible "I have given before you the power of life and death, a curse and a blessing, that you may choose one but I advice you to choose life that you and your children may live" That explains it all. I have said God is everything, he knows everything, he created everything( whatsoever your mind thinks of right now, he knows it) And just like him, he made you, with the power to do good or evil, all you have to do is choose! Why should I trust Him? Well I trust because he created me (I mean why will he create me, give me an instruction only to fail me, doesn't sound right). I trust him his Word is Amen, it's always the same, he never lies (Infact even if he lies, they turn to truth) Oxford dictionary never goes wrong not because there are no wrong words there but because they are the originator of words, so is God he can't lie because what he says is the Law. Again I trust him because all through my sojourn in life and even in the Bible, I have never heard that he failed anyone not at all! 4 Likes |
| Re: How Good Is God? by Graviton2(m): 10:26am On Aug 19, 2014 |
chrisviral: 1000+ likes 2 Likes |
| Re: How Good Is God? by alexleo(m): 1:42pm On Aug 19, 2014 |
finofaya: The origin of sin is from lucifer. First, a desire to take the place of God(which is pride) then it developed into rebellion, then the curse from God which pushed him further into evil. I think we can say that it is God that defined evil.(I mean its what he called evil that is evil). Also the tree of knowledge of good and evil was also created by him according to Genesis 2:9. Somehow you made some sense in your opinion about God and @Chrisviral that said that God is everything before creation also made sense. |
| Re: How Good Is God? by alexleo(m): 1:45pm On Aug 19, 2014 |
chrisviral: Beautiful submission here. God bless you plenty. |
| Re: How Good Is God? by chrisviral(m): 1:48pm On Aug 19, 2014 |
alexleo: Thanks. Amen and bless you too! |
| Re: How Good Is God? by finofaya: 3:54pm On Aug 19, 2014 |
chrisviral: alexleo: I guess both of you believe that a thing is good or evil because God says it is. And that God is good because he says he is good. That's okay. |
| Re: How Good Is God? by alexleo(m): 8:06pm On Aug 19, 2014 |
finofaya: I am looking at God from what the bible said about him. God is the creator of the whole universe. Definitely he is the one that can define creation best. If i create something, then nobody can define it better than me. Also its me that will name what i created and whatever i call it is what it will be called. |
| Re: How Good Is God? by finofaya: 9:59pm On Aug 19, 2014 |
alexleo: Perhaps he is the creator of the universe. But there are certain things that God could not have created, for the mere fact that they are part and parcel of him. At whatever point it was that he sprang into existence, he sprang with these things. If he is eternal, these things are also eternal. I'm talking of his essential attributes, such as omnipotence, omnipresence, etc. He could not have created his omnipotence, for example. I think his goodness or otherwise are part of these essential attributes; he is said to be omnibenevolent after all. To my mind, these are things that he has no control over. He did not choose to be omnipresent. He did not choose to be all good. But since there is no good without evil, then there is evil and the evil is equally out of his control. So he cannot be the one to decide what is or is not evil. But you say he is the benchmark. No wahala. 2 Likes |
| Re: How Good Is God? by alexleo(m): 10:21pm On Aug 19, 2014 |
finofaya: Yeah i also have this believe that God didnt develop any of his attributes after creation because he said that he changes not. He is the same yesterday, today and forever. And yes those attributes are those you ve mentioned. Mercy is also one of his attributes and without sin his mercy cant manifest. Infact the word mercy would ve sounded strange to man. Wrath is his attribute and without sin his wrath cannot manifest. The word wrath would ve sounded meaningless to us. I too have that believe in me that God can never wipe out this attributes in him since he said he changeth not. Just like you said i also think he does not have power to change because its a combination of this unchangeable attributes that makes him God. In the light of this, your submissions are not out of the track rather it calls for more thoughts and studies so as to arrive at a convincing conclusion. You might be right after all. Honesty i like your reasoning and aproach to this issue and that of @Chrisviral. It is more eductating and makes more sense than the nonsense that atheists usually say. |
| Re: How Good Is God? by alexleo(m): 11:02pm On Aug 19, 2014 |
^^^^This is why those who preach that there is no eternal torment or that the lake of fire will not burn forever as the bible said are false preachers. Wrath is an attribute of God and its eternal too like his other attributes. lake of fire is a manifestation of his wrath where those who fall short of his judgment will finally end up. If God wipes away lake of fire as the false teachers preach, it means there will be nothing like God's wrath in existence again since what will remain then is a perfect new heaven and new earth (and this means God has changed). Of course he cant manifest his wrath in such a perfect, peaceful and sinless place? And according to the scripture, the new heaven and the new earth will remain like that(no room for evils and troubles there as it was in the first heaven and first earth). The only place that God's wrath will manifest at that time is in the lake of fire. And since this attribute(wrath) of God is eternal therefore its going to be an eternal damnation as the scripture said it. Those who are being sentimental in preaching that God is too loving to allow people burn forever in hell are not having a balanced view of God. They are just deceiving themselves. God has said it that he cannot change. Its either people believe it totally or disbelief it totally. No middle ground. If someone believes that wrath can cease to exist in him, then it means the person is saying that love and his other attributes can cease to exist in him. Thats a false teaching. I am the lord, I change not. Thats his word and i believe it totally |
| Re: How Good Is God? by finofaya: 12:13am On Aug 20, 2014 |
alexleo: Thanks man. I like your honesty, and how you took the time to thrash this issue. I don't know that atheists usually say nonsense tho. I don't think God's wrath fills the role of evil. His mercy does not constitute his entire benevolence either. In fact, mercy and wrath, among other things, tend to fall under benevolence, in form of forgiveness and punishment (burning people for eternity crosses the limit of punishment tho. Issue for another day). That being the case, being wrathful does not make him evil (but you have to wonder why he did not foresee the thing that made him mad). The issue of where the evil is would remain then. |
| Re: How Good Is God? by chrisviral(m): 10:00am On Aug 20, 2014 |
Alexleo You have said it all. I think the jealousy of Lucifer, the fall of Man, and the Coming of Jesus were all part of God's plan (or let me say, he knew all this things would happen). To me he is merely trying to show us who he is, his attributes like you put. He used the devil to show us his attribute of wrath, the isrealites too, He used Jesus to show us his mercies too, so I believe all this are just part of God's plan. Like a scholar would always say, "here on earth, God is not concerned with the cars we ride or houses we live in, he is actually preparing us for eternity by showing us Who he is" And again I believe that there is Hell, just like you put it, without hell, then there would be no perfect God because then his wrath will stop existing which means he has changed, therefore in other for a new heaven to exist there will be hell, where God's wrath will keep pouring out for eternity, coz if you remove hell from the picture and God forgives everyone, it will be Earth all over again, Why? the wrath part of God must Manifest. (I dunno if u get me). The only place I cants seem to reconcile and I want us to discuss is... When the perfect Heaven must have come to place, where all humans are perfect and then who who didn't pass the judgement of God are in hell, HOW THEN WILL GOD SHOW HIS MERCY? *remember we will be like new slates there. 2 Likes |
| Re: How Good Is God? by alexleo(m): 12:23pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
chrisviral: Alexleo Thanks dear. I got your points clearly and both of us really agree. For the point above concerning the eternal existence of his mercy, I will say that our being in heaven as a result of being saved by God's grace and mercy is an etermal manifestation of his mercy. (I mean till eternity, our presence in heaven will never cease to be a manifestation of his mercy). We didn't inherit heaven by our own power or our own righteousness or our own merit. Its by God's mercy/grace. Let me give this little analogy. A woman marries and changes her surname but nothing will make her cease to exist as the daughter of her father even though her surname has changed and she is now answering somebody's wife. (I don't know if you understood my point here). Again, the eternal damnation and eternal life all together manifests his mercy eternally. I mean the fact that some people are going through eternal torment while some others are enjoying eternal bliss manifests mercy(I mean the dividing line is mercy). . |
| Re: How Good Is God? by chrisviral(m): 12:55pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
alexleo: Wow! That's a new perspective! Yeah yeah I get you now... In order words, the day the woman divorces the husband she stops bearing the name, I get the picture, so to say our been continually in heaven still exhibits God's mercy, the day He stops showing the Mercy, we stop been in heaven! Wow, the absence of his wrath is the end of hell... Nice! Thanks bro! |
| Re: How Good Is God? by alexleo(m): 1:46pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
chrisviral: Yeah that's the point. I always like to discuss issues about God's attributes with an open mind. Its been great discussing with you. Thanks so much. |
| Re: How Good Is God? by finofaya: 1:59pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
@alexleo, @chrisviral You guys sef. Are you not bothered that God's mercy and wrath are outside his control? That what you call a loving God is a God who does not choose to be loving but one who is loving in order to balance his 'wrath'? Also, 'mercy' and 'wrath' are not the same as 'good' and 'evil'. I think you left the issue and started talking something else. |
| Re: How Good Is God? by finofaya: 2:12pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
ยค |
| Re: How Good Is God? by alexleo(m): 2:45pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
finofaya: @alexleo, @chrisviral Like I said earlier, I like the way you make your points. Now, based on the above, I may agree with you. And I will say that it is because God cannot expunge any of his attributes that he made a way of escape for man concerning his wrath. Its like God saying to man- hey my people, I am a loving God and also a God of wrath, and these attributes of mine are eternal. I don't even have the power to wipe out or expunge any of them from me. The highest and best I can do for you people is to make a way of escape from my wrath for you hence the sacrificing of my son. I made this way of escape so cheap. As cheap as embracing the redemption plan by believing on my son Jesus Christ. Its love that made God to make a way of escape for us over what he cannot expunge(wrath) hence John 3:16. The redemption plan has always been refered to as the greatest display of God's love for man in the scripture. There is no place in the bible that duration in lake of fire was used to measure God's love. Its false teachers who preaches with sentiments that will always use his love to measure his wrath by asking us how a loving God will burn people in the lake of fire. Its the redemption plan that is used in measuring the height of God's love in the bible not duration of lake of fire. Based on this submission, I don't need to bother myself with the fact that God cannot expunge this attribute(wrath) since he made a way of escape for us. I would ve been so bothered if God had not made a way of escape for us knowing he has this eternal attribute(wrath). My duty now is to simply embrace the redemption plan which of course is too simple to do and without cost. |
| Re: How Good Is God? by alexleo(m): 2:51pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
finofaya: @alexleo, @chrisviral They are all connected bro. Mercy produces good while wrath produces evil. |
| Re: How Good Is God? by macof(m): 2:56pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
chrisviral: the force of creation didn't make us like it, it made us like us simple!. It made us in itself, out of itself...that's the best relationship you have. Not dat we have an appearance of any God God sees it not as punishment, rather simply given what is deserved. paying evil with evil as you pay good with good. That's how the universe works. It's called Karma |
| Re: How Good Is God? by macof(m): 2:57pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
alexleo:By wrath you mean anger  |
| Re: How Good Is God? by macof(m): 2:59pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
alexleo: Since you believe Lucifer is real..pls show us where Lucifer committed evil. Frankly evil as nothing to do with a satan People are just too attached to the idea of a good God that they created the character of satan Lucifer is a Latin word, how can Jews be speaking Latin in 700BC that the book of Isaiah was supposedly written 1 Like |
| Re: How Good Is God? by macof(m): 3:02pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
alexleo: That is why humans are endowed with intelligence and the potential to wisdom(which is intelligent use of knowledge) God won't appear in flesh narrating how the universe was created. We have to follow the trail 1 Like |
| Re: How Good Is God? by chrisviral(m): 3:43pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
macof: From what angle are you arguing from, I don't get use, present your assertion in an understandable way, then I can counter you. When I said God is everything (even creation, nature) whatever you call "is" all part of it. EVERYTHING |
| Re: How Good Is God? by macof(m): 4:24pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
chrisviral: From the Yoruba angle  I agree that God is everything but you make it seem as if God is distant from certain things |
| Re: How Good Is God? by chrisviral(m): 5:29pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
macof: Hehehehe you na mad man o yoruba huh?If my post did appear that God is distant to certain things, lol sorry, u know say english no be my language. |
| Re: How Good Is God? by alexleo(m): 5:59pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
macof: Bro I'm a christian so whatever I'm discussing about God will still not be out of the biblical background. An atheist can discuss God outside the bible and that's for the person. But not to draw me to reason outside the bible with him. He decided to reason outside the bible by choice and I decided to reason within the bible and that's by choice too. Having said that, let me answer you about lucifer. He committed sin by wanting to overthrow God. Its an act of pride, greed and treason. God's wrath was pulled out by such a negative act and he cursed lucifer. The curse further placed him on the part of evil and creating evil. This boils down to what I said that wrath produces evil while mercy produces good. 1 Like |
| Re: How Good Is God? by finofaya: 6:19pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
alexleo: Lol @ redemption plan. See, I still don't know why you think God, who is equally good and evil, or merciful and wrathful to quote you, would have a predisposition for good or mercy. I see enough evidence in the world to suspect that this not the case. This redemption plan. If his motives are not suspect, why would God in claiming to show mercy to man come up with a redemption plan that involves destroying more people than it saves? It is entirely possible for God to show us mercy and unleash his wrath on any number of things to spare us. Things like plants, microbes, other animals and even property (stars and planets. Destruction of property is evil). Why should his wrath be unleashed on the one thing that is capable of experiencing the most intense suffering, if he is not 'impolite'? |
| Re: How Good Is God? by chrisviral(m): 7:14pm On Aug 20, 2014 |
Like Anger in you so is the Wrath is God! Do you strike a cow when a Dog bites you, ofcourse not, God's wrath is already in motion, it has always been there... He changes not comes into play.. It is already meant to be that anyone who sins will be punished, seeing that will cost him all humanity he brought the redemption plan, it's simple... Your Father has a cane, and this cane he can't dispose it even if he wants too, and anytime you misbehave, he flogs you, but his mercy side wants him to stop flogging you but his wrath can't, then he gives you a redemption plan.. please son don't misbehave so I won't have to flog you! That's just it. 1 Like |
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