Hi cgift,

cgift:

Yes, we should thank God for his sovereignty truly but mind you, with the numerous promises in the scripture, God is telling us that falling sick is now by choice and not in his plan for us

Lol, I don't think anyone would like to fall sick "by choice". Besides, the post I made on the fact that several mature believers experienced sickness only goes to show that they did not make a choice to be sick. Paul was well acquainted with the promises of God on health and other blessings - but it's clear that even he experienced sickness as well as noted that some of his co-labourers experienced the same.

Now, the second issue is interesting in the sense that you make an exception to the promises of God:

cgift:
God is telling us that falling sick is now by choice and not in his plan for us except if it is from God himself for the purpose of trial of faith or sickness unto death

This would simply mean that there are no promises against the "trial of faith or sickness unto death". It just doesn't work like that - because, trials are part of the promises that God has set for us as believers: not for our distress, but because they are necessary to strengthen us in our walk with Him. For example:

[list]Deut. 8:3 -- "And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live."[/list]

So it is with experiencing sickness or trials - they are not ordained for our distress, but so that we might become stronger and more mature in our faith and thus be able to bear with others as well (2 Cor. 1:3-7).

Indeed, by His sovereignty, there are other mature believers who have enjoyed divine health for many years - but only as a matter of His sovereignty. Paul makes it clear that part of the reason why he suffered tough situations was because of the abundance of the revelations God had entrusted to him, so that he might be stronger, more focused, not easily distracted by the non-essentials, and be able with a sound mind to understand his purpose (cf. 2 Cor. 1:6-10).

I hope this helps; but again, my point is not to preach sickness to anyone. Lol. . . but to make the point clear that it is part of our cmmon experiences here on earth. We can all enjoy good health - but the ultimate is when Jesus returns, who shall transform our bodies to His glorious body.

Enjoy.

Look @ people saying that Pastors don't fall sick!
For God's sake they are Human and so they EAT, SHIT, PISS, MESS, SWEAT, HAVE SEX, CAN BE TIRED, CAN BE ANGRY, ETC ETC TILL THEY DIE WHEN GOD SAYS IT'S THIER TIME. Even Elisha with double portion of Elijah's power died sick of a fatal disease. Yet his dry bones gave life to a dead man.
Lets stop all this Hyper Holy talk of not falling sick in 10 yrs!
GOD HAVE MERCY ON US All!

@ poster,
jesus himself fell sick so many times, but that wasnt written in their holy-book in order not to belittle the saviour, but what they dont know is that since he's cladded himself with the human body he also is subjected to what humans are going through, which are sickness, hunger,urge to have sex,sleep, annoyance, e.t.c

so who are they ^pastor, that they wont fall sick,
try this with your pastor throw him from a 3 storey building and see if he wont get injured, so likewise falling sick.

WHAT A DUMB QUESTION

@Poster, stop acting like you were an infant and face up to the reality that everybody falls sick at one point or the other, all to varying degrees of seriousness

@KDK, i dey suspect you sef say you no be anything near genuine pastor with all this your, 'i have never fallen sick since i converted' 'talk to me in private" runs.

@all those who say pastors dont fall sick, please get a life, stop being self delusional, you can put up all those fancy bible quotes and i will tell you that they amount to nothing more than attractive prose with a contrived divine stamp.

Fall sick,why wud a new creation fall sick ?(2 corinthians 5:17)
Its not that they cant sick,but they dont fall sick.
The bible says "BY HIS STRIPES WE WERE HEALED" in[b] Isiaih 53:4-5 and 1 peter 2:24.[/b]

Christ paid for the whole price when he gave his life on the cross and made it a fact when he arose from the dead.

The bible also says we are redeemed from the curse of the law(galatians 3:13 : Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree." because

galatians 3:10 says "All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

The bible also told us sickness is part of the curse of the law.(Deuteronomy 28 :18 >Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body)If you notice it says the fruit of your body not womb,so dont make mistake understanding the word. I'll advice you read the whole chapter to know more.


So you see,if you accept Christ Jesus,sickness is not part of you anymore.Because you have already overcomed it because the bible says in 1 John 4:4 "Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world"

SO WHATS SICKNESS? Nothing,I say because I dont fall sick. I am a new creation,because the life I live is not mine but I live the life of Christ.

What a great place to be.

@Infourmer,

If you believe that "a new creature" in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17) never experiences sickness, then please help explain the reason why the same apostle who wrote 2 Corinthians 5 is the one who acknowledged that he himself and certain mature believers also experienced sickness:

[list]
[li]Epaphroditus: (Philp. 2:25 & 26)
"For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick"[/li][/list]

[list]
[li]Trophimus: (2Tim. 4:20)
"Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick."[/li][/list]

[list]
[li]Timothy: (1 Tim. 5:23)
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."[/li][/list]

What is important to note is that believers in Christ have not yet received their glorified bodies - and the bodies we now have are described as "our vile body" which shall be changed at the coming of Christ to be fashioned like unto His own (Php. 3:21). As such, we in our bodies at this present time are still subject to pain, tiredness, sweat, and other things that normal people experience - as the same apostle Paul declared in Romans 8:23 >>

[list]"And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit,
even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit,
the redemption of our body."[/list]

Let's be careful about this subject because some people have supposed that the Law was unto a "curse" of sickness! That is simply not true. Saints in both the OT and NT have experienced sickness - not as a matter of the old covenant or anything affecting the new covenant; but because our bodies in the present are still subject to the normal experience of our lot from the Fall in Genesis 3 until today. That is nto to say that we're under any "curse" of Gen. 3; but this is how the apostle puts it:

[list]Rom. 8:20-22
"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."[/list]

I hope we keep these things in proper perpectives so we don't continue to propagate the misconceptions of extreme beliefs.  Cheers.

pilgrim.1:

@Infourmer,

If you believe that "a new creature" in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17) never experiences sickness, then please help explain the reason why the same apostle who wrote 2 Corinthians 5 is the one who acknowledged that he himself and certain mature believers also experienced sickness:

[list]
[li]Epaphroditus: (Philp. 2:25 & 26)
"For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick"[/li][/list]


[list]
[li]Trophimus: (2Tim. 4:20)
"Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick."[/li][/list]

[list]
[li]Timothy: (1 Tim. 5:23)
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."[/li][/list]

Pilgrim, [/b]please note this: the fact that they were the early apostles does not mean that they had a full knowledge of all provisions of the salvation package. I would rather say that their focus was very much on expanding and stabilisation of the church then that they really did not sit down to come to a full grasp of the understandings of the full gospel of prosperity and health though they preached it.

The level of revelational knowledge (and expounding oon the Word of God) we now have these days is alarming. The exploits of [b]Dan. 11 : 32 [/b]we are talking about is becoming more real thse days. Knowing God is becoming deeper by the day. I would say this: the salvation package cannot be fully exploited. There is so much in there that you can only enjoy what you can see in this inexhaustible package. [b]If you can't see it, you can't enjoy it.

pilgrim.1:

[b]What is important to note is that believers in Christ have not yet received their glorified bodies - and the bodies we now have are described as "our vile body" [/b]which shall be changed at the coming of Christ to be fashioned like unto His own (Php. 3:21). As such, we in our bodies at this present time are still subject to pain, tiredness, sweat, and other things that normal people experience - as the same apostle Paul declared in Romans 8:23 >>

That is why you can feel tiredness and a headache but it is your responsibility to tell the spirit to go immedaitely you feel it without allowing it to settle and build its nst in your body.

pilgrim.1:

Let's be careful about this subject because some people have supposed that the Law was unto a "curse" of sickness! That is simply not true. Saints in both the OT and NT have experienced sickness - not as a matter of the old covenant or anything affecting the new covenant; but because our bodies in the present are still subject to the normal experience of our lot from the Fall in Genesis 3 until today. That is not to say that we're under any "curse" of Gen. 3; but this is how the apostle puts it:

[list]Rom. 8:20-22
"For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now."[/list]

The curse of the law comprised of sickness, pains, sweat, and other ill-healths. All thes things crept it when God cursed man in Genesis. The coming of Christ came to abolish these curses and remove us from the curse of the law.

See Gal. 3: 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith..

The work of the Cross is total.

What you do not see in a package, you do not enjoy.

pilgrim.1:

I hope we keep these things in proper perpectives so we don't continue to propagate the misconceptions of extreme beliefs. Cheers.

These are not really extreme. What you believe you can enjoy! [quote][/quote]

@cgift,

cgift:

Pilgrim, [/b]please note this: the fact that they were the early apostles does not mean that they had a full knowledge of all provisions of the salvation package. I would rather say that their focus was very much on expanding and stabilisation of the church then that they really did not sit down to come to a full grasp of the understandings of the full gospel of prosperity and health though they preached it.

Lol, there are numerous reasons why I'd not agree with your premise. In the first instance, it is not true that the Christians in the apostlic era "really did not sit down to come to a full grasp of the understandings of the full gospel of prosperity and health" - though, as you further said, "they preached it".

How would they have been able to preach what they had no full grasp of? The era of preaching something and yet not having a full grasp of the same belongs to the OT period. The apostle Peter makes that point so plain:

[list][b]1 Pet. 1:10-12
"Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.[/list]

Of the ministry of the New Covenant, it is abundantly clear that the apostles had a full grasp of what God committed unto them. Luke was clear on that when he wrote "a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us" (Luke 1:1). They were not looking or searching or enquiring as to the perculiarities or mysteries of the new covenant that they preached; and I have numerous texts to show indeed that they were clear on precisely what they were preaching. Let's ee a few from the apostle Paul himself:

[list]
Ephesians 3:2-7
"If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power."[/list]

[list]Rom. 15:19
"Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ."[/list]

[list]2 Cor. 3:5-6
"Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."[/list]

These are just a few - and there are several others. The point here is simple: they knew precisely what was entrusted to them to preach; and God gave them sufficiency to minister the same. If they did not have a full grasp of what they preached, believe me, we Christians would be in trouble today! It would suggest, among other things, that we do not have a full ministry in the new covenant; it would also mean that we're not to be looking out for and expecting the return of Christ - and above all, it would mean that there is a huge gap to be filled by a different ministry or covenant which should consolidate that of the apostles.

The opne reason why I used the examples of the apostle Paul in particular is that he is in a better position to relate on this issue - because he clearly makes clear that what has not been revealed unto the sons of men in other ages has now been revealed to the apostles and prophets by the Spirit of God. That being so, there is no way the apostle would have been oblivious of the healing, prosperity and other blessings in the covenant of which he was a vessel.

However, full grasping these issues, it was clear that Paul did not make a case of "no pastors falling sick". Rather, it is clear from the examples I offered, that he recognized we're still in this "vile body" (Php. 3:21) and would still experience some pain, travail, tough times, sickness, etc. Yet, he went on to make the case that the whole creation groans up to he present - until that time as reserved by the Father, when we shall enjoy the redemption of our bodies (Rom. 8:23).

cgift:

The level of revelational knowledge (and expounding oon the Word of God) we now have these days is alarming. The exploits of Dan. 11 : 32 [/b]we are talking about is becoming more real thse days. Knowing God is becoming deeper by the day. I would say this: the salvation package cannot be fully exploited. There is so much in there that you can only enjoy what you can see in this inexhaustible package. [b]If you can't see it, you can't enjoy it.

Lol - could we then say that Paul recommended the same thing to Trophimus in Miletum (2 Tim. 4:20) and Timothy himself (1 Tim. 5:23)? Could you imagine that Paul would bear to say the same things to his companions - "if you can't see it, you can't enjoy it"? Nay - he wouldn't say that at all - knowing fully what he had declared in Romans 8:23 and Php. 3:21.

cgift:

That is why you can feel tiredness and a headache but it is your responsibility to tell the spirit to go immedaitely you feel it without allowing it to settle and build its nst in your body.

Quite often, believers attribute every symptom of pain in the body to some sort of "spirit". This is wrong. Let's never forget this - that even Jesus Himself was tired (John 4:6 -- ". . .Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well. .". I onced asked a student pastor what he thought about Jesus being wearied - and you would not believe the things he said!

In anycase, it is clearly unhealthy to assume that tiredness, headaches, and other symptoms of the body are issued from some sort of "spirit" - that leaves us scratching our heads as to what exactly is described in John 4:6!

cgift:

The curse of the law comprised of sickness, pains, sweat, and other ill-healths. All thes things crept it when God cursed man in Genesis. The coming of Christ came to abolish these curses and remove us from the curse of the law.

Lol. . . never mix up the declarative of the Fall in Genesis 3 with the Sinatic Law in Exodus and Deuteronomy! They are not the same! Christ did not come to redeem us from what many people assume - so that they make the Law a matter of sickness, illness, attacks, etc. If we go through Scripture in the NT and see what is referred to as the "curse" of the Law, we would adjust out thinking appropraitely.

cgift:

See Gal. 3: 13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith..

The work of the Cross is total.

What you do not see in a package, you do not enjoy.

These are not really extreme. What you believe you can enjoy!

God loves us that much He desires us to be in health and prosper. But that is not predicated on some of the ideas that so many people have propounded today. That is why there's so much confusion and disappointments in many quarters when people's expectations are not met - and Church leaders who led them into believing such things only come back angrily accusing the seekers of not exercising "enough faith"!

Let's be careful in trying to promote isssues that are not taught in God's WORD.

Cheers.

@Pilgrim,you post so many scriptures,long passage but you aint hitting the nail on the head,mine is simple and straight forward and its TRUE.

Do you know the same bible said in psalms 82 that though ye are gods but die like humans,why ? It was because they lack knowlegde.

Psalm 82:5-7
5They know not, neither will they understand; they walk on in darkness: all the foundations of the earth are out of course.

6I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

7But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.


Some disciples in the early times lacked some knowledge,in saying this some even lacked the knowledge of recieving the Holy spirit

ACTS 19:2
And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

And even before they were approached by Paul they preached the gospel but they lacked the knowledge about the Holy ghost.

If you think your body is subject to sickness,then tell me what does this passage means

Romans 8:11

And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.

Infourmer,

Fair talk. A gift you do not see, you do not behold and you do not enjoy. That is the truth. First learn to see it, then behold it then enjoy!

Those who are blessed with good health for years should give gratitude to God but it is not correct to infer that others not so blessed are still neophytes in the belief and practice of christianity. Such inference is not only wrong but dangerous in my opinion. If there arguments were tenable, then only those christains who have acess to the so called salvation package will have good health. Indeed, in all religions and even among those who do not believe, you find a subset of the believers and atheists that have excellent health throughout their entire life. In some cases sickness is as a result of disobedience to biological, natural and spiritual laws. However, there are exceptions since not every illness is a consequence of sin. Genetic predispostion and healthy leaving can in many instances explain the good health enjoyed by the claimants. Good genes like all other talents are also a gift of God. Healing and sickeness are much more complex than most people imagine. For instance a man called by God to cure fatal illnesses like various cancers can himself die of cancer and there is nothing unsual about it. To promise believers the so called salvation packages will only result in bitter disappointment because for many individuals that will not be fufilled. It is these salvation packages which are held enticely for believers that results in major crises of faith when their wrong expections go unswered. I repeat as long as you have a physical body, you will likely at one point or another fall sick. You will also at some point got involved in mishaps including natural disasters, autocrashes, plane crashes, armed robbery etc. And when these things happen to a believer, it does not always mean that God has deserted him.

Infourmer:

@Pilgrim,you post so many scriptures,long passage but you aint hitting the nail on the head,mine is simple and straight forward and its TRUE.

If you went through my post, I clearly stated issues as plainly as anyone could see. People who are confident of sharing truth do not advertize themselves with "mine is TRUE" - it smarks of desperation to ignore the facts.

Now, here's what I had left you to reflect upon earlier:


If you believe that "a new creature" in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17) never experiences sickness, then please help explain the reason why the same apostle who wrote 2 Corinthians 5 is the one who acknowledged that he himself and certain mature believers also experienced sickness:

[list]
[li]Epaphroditus: (Philp. 2:25 & 26)
"For he longed after you all, and was full of heaviness, because that ye had heard that he had been sick"[/li][/list]

[list]
[li]Trophimus: (2Tim. 4:20)
"Erastus abode at Corinth: but Trophimus have I left at Miletum sick."[/li][/list]

[list]
[li]Timothy: (1 Tim. 5:23)
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."[/li][/list]


You would have to know MORE THAN the apostle Paul to claim that "Some disciples in the early times lacked some knowledge" - that excuse does not stand in the face of staggering evidence in the NT to the contrary - and I've shared earlier thereto.

Could you please explain the above? Thanks.

see pilgrim,the last verse I'll answer but the first two-you'll need to provide a verse that proves that Epaphroditus and Trophimus are matured Christians.

As for the third one,If you watch close-the passage was addressed to those who needed to grow in wisdom(the word of God)

If you think its impossible to be without experiencing sickness,so do you call Jesus a lair when he said

All things are possible for them that believe.(Mark 9 :23)


And also explain this,when God Himself said in

HOSEA 4:6
My people are destroyedfor lack of knowledge.


If you know and you dont act on what you know,you are a NEPIOS

@Infourmer,

Infourmer:

see pilgrim,the last verse I'll answer but the first two-you'll need to provide a verse that proves that Epaphroditus and Trophimus are matured Christians.

Instead of assuming that they are immature Christians, please provide a good reason why you suppose that they could not be mature in the faith.

As you do so, think again for a while about these facts stated about them:

* as regards Epaphroditus, this is what the apostle Paul said when commending
him to the same Philippians: ["companion in labour and fellowsoldier"]

"Yet I supposed it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus,
my brother, and companion in labour, and fellowsoldier,
but your messenger, and he that ministered to my wants." (Php. 4:18)

How do you regard a believer who is NOT mature as a "companion in labour" and "fellowsoldier" to an apostle? Do those terms apply to those who are novices and have no experience in the things of Christ?

Consider how the same apostle used the terms in reference to others who were his companions in the ministry of the Gospel -

[list]"There salute thee Epaphras, my fellowprisoner in Christ Jesus; Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers." (Phm. 1:23-24). Did the apostle Paul use these terms concerning those people to show that they were "immature" Christians? Do you refer to an "immature" Christian as a "fellowprisoner", "fellowsoldier" or "fellowlabourers"?!?[/list]

In just the same way, Epaphroditus was a very mature Christian - for even the apostle recognized him as such and called him his "companion in labour and fellowsoldier".

Infourmer:

As for the third one,If you watch close-the passage was addressed to those who needed to grow in wisdom(the word of God)

Okay, I hear. Please show me how you came about that inference. If Timothy was lacking wisdom and was also immature in the Faith, why would the apostle Paul be recommending tasks to Timothy that were meant for mature believers if the Timothy in question was lacking "wisdom (the word of God)"? Take a look at the following examples:

The apostle Paul asked him to do the following:

* to "charge some that they teach no other doctrine" (1 Tim. 1:3)

* to "command and teach" others (1 Tim. 4:11)

* to "charge them that are rich in this world" to be humble (1 Tim. 6:17)

How would the apostle Paul be recommending these things to Timothy if the latter was supposed to have been lacking the wisdom of a mature Christian? Not only so, but please take a look at what Paul said concerning Timothy in other texts - and then decide for yourself if Paul's appraisals were descriptive of "immature" Christian as regards Timothy:

The apostle Paul called Timothy by the following appellations:

* "O man of God" (1 Tim. 6:11)

* "Timotheus, our brother,
   and minister of God,
   and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ"
   (1 Thes. 3:2)

Do these appraisals indicate what you said about Timothy, my dear Infourmer?

Infourmer:

If you think its impossible to be without experiencing sickness,so do you call Jesus a lair when he said

All things are possible for them that believe.(Mark 9 :23)

In the first place, I never said that it's impossible to be without experiencing sickness. I know quite a number of unbels who live very healthy lives - if that is how you argue out issues. Now if you try to assume a fallacious assertion of making Jesus a liar, it's all up to you - for I never charged the Lord with such accusations.

When the Lord Jesus spoke in Mark 9:23, He never placed us in any position to think that we could dispense with His divine will and purposes. The apostle Paul at a period in his life sought the Lord Jesus concerning an ailment that "it might depart" from him - but we know what the Lord's answer was: "My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness" (2 Cor. 12:7-9). You should stop for a moment to wonder if Paul did not "believe" for his healing; or what exactly was wrong with Paul that he had to seek the Lord THRICE concerning his ailment?

Indeed, all things are possible to everyone who believes - but that is not to force that verse to read that we must disregard God's divine purposes and ways in dealing with His children.

Infourmer:

And also explain this,when God Himself said in

HOSEA 4:6
My people are destroyedfor lack of knowledge.

How does that verse relate to HEALING, Infourmer? Certainly, it could be used to encourage believers; but does it particularly address the question of healing and establish the case that Pastors (or believers) never fall sick? Please go back to Hosea 4 and read verse 1, which contextually explains that "the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because there is no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land". Is that speaking about the promises of HEALING? Lol. . . I wan hear how you interpret that scripture.

Infourmer:

If you know and you don't act on what you know,you are a NEPIOS

I thank you plenty . . . I'm saving all the name-callings people have given me on Nairaland; and yours is also in the "mild" chapters. Thank you again O!

In 2 Cor. 12:7-9, Paul actually sought the Lord for help, but did you noticed what happend before he did. His interpretation of his weakness was before he sought the lord just like job did,before he was actually visited by the devil (job 3:25  For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me. ) His interpretation was negative to what God actually testified of him,He was living in FEAR.
( job 2 : 3-6)
3 And the Lord said to Satan, Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who [reverently] fears God and abstains from and shuns all evil [because it is wrong]? And still he holds fast his integrity, although you moved Me against him to destroy him without cause.

    4Then Satan answered the Lord, Skin for skin! Yes, all that a man has will he give for his life.

    5But put forth Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse and renounce You to Your face.

    6And the Lord said to Satan, Behold, he is in your hand; only spare his life.


God spoke well of JOB but rmbr the power of death and life are in the power of the tongue,Job spoke negatively and thinks negatively to the way God saw him and that brought a snare to Jobs life(psalms 29:25). It was that snare that God saw that he said to satan BEHOLD(Job 2:6)


So back to your passage in 2 corinthians,paul had a negative interpretation( sunesis ),if you noticed he said in verse 9

Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

He said that to straighten his interpretation,do you think if the power of Christ rest upon him ,it will LATER leave him?

Certainly not,it will remain and as it remains no more weakness(THORN) can dwell in that body.

Have the right interpretation of circumstances and all will be well without any form of sickness Stay blessed.

Faith without knowledge is nothing,so is faith without love and action.

Get knowledge and act on it,you are called to do the word of God not to hear alone.

Infourmer!

Kai. NEPOIS or wetin you call am? Na only you go tell us the meaning of that word because i no see am for wordweb

Okay. Pilgrim, lets look at it this way.

People are schooled in various departments such that you would only now best what you ar majored in. In other words, look at a department with several units. If the department runs like what i have in my office, thn a unit head may not know what obtains in the other unit and vic versa though they are in the same department. Th departmental head however knows what happens in all the units reporting to him. Why hav i used this analogy?

Timothy, Ephra, (what's that his name) et all could have been doctored and grown in varied units of the salvation department including salvation, holiness, repentance, baptism, gifts, call into ministry, and what have you but not haling department. I can tell you now that as the dyas go by in this gneration, revelational knowledge increases. Paul and others who wrote these scriptures where even writing what they could not fully comprehend! You doubt that ? Paul said as you know in Ephesians 3:8: To me, the very least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, . He also said in a place (cannot vividly recall now) that "How unsearchable are his riches,

Pilgrim, even Paul did not understand all. Do not think because he was used in writing the scriptures, he understood all things: - i am a bit laid-back there. As for his affliction, it was for his subjection. God allowed that to stay nothing more.

This is not unscriptual as you are wont to believe: its just digging further and connecting scriptures in the wisdom of God. Remember, John 17: 3 :This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

That word [b]'know" [/b]is the quest for the [b]unsearchable [/b]Paul was talking about! Think about this my sis!

cgift:

Infourmer!

Kai. NEPOIS or wetin you call am? Na only you go tell us the meaning of that word because i no see am for wordweb

Lol . . . . cgift . No fear; the word never enter webster for now. I guess the word 'nepios' is greek for "infant" or "babe". I wonder the need for that though since this is an english forum

pilgrim.1:

If you know and you don't act on what you know,you are a NEPIOS

I thank you plenty . . . I'm saving all the name-callings people have given me on Nairaland; and yours is also in the "mild" chapters. Thank you again O!

Lol Pilgrim . . . . that inventory of appellatons isn't to be envied  . I'm guessin its only orobo 's catalogue that has gone beyond the 'mild' eh ?
Methinks infourmer was making a 'general statement' in this case though. Perhaps phrasing would have helped: "if one knows and doesn't act on what one knows then one is an infant (greek: nepios)". Or something like that
(but then we all know that this is indirect yabis - the implication still remains _{- no be me talk am oh} )

anyways, u guys should fire on !

Psalm 91

9[/b]Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;

[b]10[/b]There shall no evil befall thee, neither shall any plague( Sickness) come nigh thy dwelling(your body).

[b]11[/b]For he shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee in all thy ways.


Do this,walk in the light as He is in the light (make Him your habitation)[b]1 John 1:7 And no sickness will be bold enough to overcome you your body because its the temple of the Holy ghost and you are the custodian of that body by the words you speak. 
[size=70pt]Believe me, THE WORD WORKS! [/size]   

Infourmer,

what is that now? You don de kolo go be dat o! Why you dey shout? Okay I believe youm the word works see also:

Deut. 28 : 1- 22 (vs. 21 says: 21 The LORD shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.

So why would any one want to allow what is not in his heritage as a child of God cleave unto him? I think the chapter is quite explicit in addition to[b] Ps. 91[/b] except if Pilgrim wants to disagree with the fact that sickness in question here is embebbed in the 'plagues' of the chapter.

where's she, I think we've passed a message she clearly understands now. Thank God.

Probably. I will send a mail to her personal mail to fetch her here!

Infourmer:

[size=30pt]Believe me, THE WORD WORKS! [/size]

@Infourmer,

Wetin happen? Has anyone argued that the WORD doesn't work?

Infourmer:

where's she, I think we've passed a message she clearly understands now. Thank God.

Lol. . . I wan faint with lafter! I no go work again? Abi make I abandon my wages and expect the miracle of "hunger"?

I was a lil busy and could not be on the Forum all this while; less busy now, so I'm here until such time as the office buzzes again O!

ricadelide:

Lol Pilgrim . . . . that inventory of appellatons isn't to be envied . I'm guessin its only orobo 's catalogue that has gone beyond the 'mild' eh ?
Methinks infourmer was making a 'general statement' in this case though. Perhaps phrasing would have helped: "if one knows and doesn't act on what one knows then one is an infant (greek: nepios)". Or something like that
(but then we all know that this is indirect yabis - the implication still remains _{- no be me talk am oh} )

anyways, u guys should fire on !

@ricadelide,

Lol. . . You know me, nothing from orobo 50cl was 'harsh' enough to make it into the dark chapters. I was teasing him and was just going to drop the bomb on Catholics when a friend held me back (was the same ex-Catholic friend who corrected me about the phrase "full of grace" not said only about Jesus Christ). All the same, I see there's been enough heat to warm up in here - weather's not so clement in my area in the UK at the moment. So, let's see wetin dem dey talk since my break!

@cgift,

cgift:

Kai. NEPOIS or wetin you call am? Na only you go tell us the meaning of that word because i no see am for wordweb

Lol. . . I was only teasing him - you know me! Even ricadelide quickly grabbed and decoded; and that's why I talk say Infourmer own na "mild".

The term "nepios" could simply mean a "babe" - someone who is "immature" in the things of God (1 Cor. 3:1 - "even as unto babes [νηπιος - nepios] in Christ". However, when used in discussions in reference to adults, it could have the meaning of a 'simpleton' (in the Greek of the Iliad, "acting like a fool", lol. It is the direct opposite of "teleios" [τέλειος] which is simply "mature". Not to worry: if you're interested in playing with word-study, try Vine's Expository Dictionary online, and check out the term "nepios" explained here.

cgift:

Okay. Pilgrim, lets look at it this way.

People are schooled in various departments such that you would only now best what you ar majored in. In other words, look at a department with several units. If the department runs like what i have in my office, thn a unit head may not know what obtains in the other unit and vic versa though they are in the same department. Th departmental head however knows what happens in all the units reporting to him. Why hav i used this analogy?

Interesting. . . and I want to see why.

cgift:

Timothy, Ephra, (what's that his name) et all could have been doctored and grown in varied units of the salvation department including salvation, holiness, repentance, baptism, gifts, call into ministry, and what have you but not haling department. I can tell you now that as the dyas go by in this gneration, revelational knowledge increases. Paul and others who wrote these scriptures where even writing what they could not fully comprehend!

Could you please walk me through Scripture and demonstrate clearly how it is indeed so as you assert. Could we look into Scripture together in order to understand how Paul and others could not have fully comprehended what thet taught and wrote?

cgift:

You doubt that ? Paul said as you know in Ephesians 3:8: To me, the very least of all saints, was this grace given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ,

And how does that "prove" that he had no comprehension of the things which he ministered unto others?

@cgift,

cgift:

He also said in a place (cannot vividly recall now) that "How unsearchable are his riches,

Lol. . . okay, I remember that "vivid" passage - because that was part of my devotional time this morning:

"O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments and his ways past finding out!" (Rom. 11:33)

Perhaps, you meant to quote Ephesians 3:8 - "Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ"? Lol. . we all learn each day of our lives.

cgift:

Pilgrim, even Paul did not understand all. Do not think because he was used in writing the scriptures, he understood all things: - i am a bit laid-back there.

Well, the evidence from Scripture itself bears out the fact that he understood precisely what he wrote about; otherwise he would not be in a position to allege that others did not know what they were talking about (1 Tim. 1:7 - "understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm". However, please remember what he testified concerning his ministry:

"How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery;
(as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read,
ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)"
(Ephesians 3:3 & 4)

If the apostle did not understand what he was teaching or writing about at any point, how would he then have expected his readers to his "knowledge in the mystery of Christ"? Or, how would he even have made the claim that he wanted to "make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery" (vs. 9) - if he did not first understand what he himself was teachings others? Meanwhile, his characteristic way of dealing with issue is stated explicitly in 1 Cor. 15:3 - "For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received"; for it would be difficult for anyone to deliver or minister something to another person if he had not first received thereof!

cgift:

As for his affliction, it was for his subjection. God allowed that to stay nothing more.

Okay, I hear - you have just said it yourself: God "allowed" it - which simply confirms the point that the apostle experienced it as a matter of God's sovereignty; and not because Paul was being "negative" in his thought. Talk to Infourmer.

cgift:

This is not unscriptual as you are wont to believe: its just digging further and connecting scriptures in the wisdom of God. Remember, John 17: 3 :This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.

I appreciate, bro - and we should aim to connect Scripture without ignoring the facts.

cgift:

That word 'know" is the quest for the unsearchable Paul was talking about! Think about this my sis!

I've given it much thought - and the quest for the unsearchable did not indicate that Paul was a stranger to the things he preached. Otherwise, going by your argument, "unsearchable" would simply mean that no one could ever discover it! However, the fact is that the apostle Paul was convinced of what he preached and taught - as well he had such a remarkable insight into the mystery of Christ, which even the apostle Peter also acknowledged (2 Pet. 3:15).

Cheers.

@Infourmer,

Infourmer:

In 2 Cor. 12:7-9, Paul actually sought the Lord for help, but did you noticed what happend before he did. His interpretation of his weakness was before he sought the lord just like job did,before he was actually visited by the devil (job 3:25 For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me. ) His interpretation was negative to what God actually testified of him,He was living in FEAR.

That would be such a shame - an apostle who was given the revelation of the riches of Christ would yet live in fear! Lol. . that just takes the icicng off the cake! No, that kind of reasoning is simply borne out of passion - but not out of context in the Bible. Paul was not living in fear; and there's nothing in that chapter to indicate that he was living in fear!

The apostle Paul was indeed a fearless man! This is the same man that knew before hand that "bonds and afflictions" awaited him in every city (Acts 20:23); and that if need be, he was ready "not to be bound only, but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus" (Acts 21:13). Is that the kind of character you ascribe to as a man living in "fear"?

Infourmer:

( job 2 : 3-6)
- - -
God spoke well of JOB but rmbr the power of death and life are in the power of the tongue,Job spoke negatively and thinks negatively to the way God saw him and that brought a snare to Jobs life(psalms 29:25). It was that snare that God saw that he said to satan BEHOLD(Job 2:6)

First, I no fit find verse 25 in Psalm 29 - you fit help me find the Bible Version wey you dey use? Thank you again. _{okay, I know that must've been an honest mistake - we all do}.

However, if you read Job carefully, you would find that there was nothing negative that "God saw" about Job, otherwise we would not have read God Himself declaring concerning Job that "there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil" (Job 2:3). Not only so, even when the trial fell on Job, God Himself declared that such things happened to him "without cause" (vs. 3) - and not the "negative" thinking you thought Job had. There are so many people today that are misreading the book of Job and making all kinds of inferences that are simply not in that book at all. Just imagine for one instance that you were sitting with Job's three friends, and then you accused him of suffering such horrendous trials "because he was thinking negatively"! What would Job say to you - as he did to his friends? Sample this:

"Behold, I know your thoughts, and the devices which ye wrongfully imagine against me. . . How then comfort ye me in vain, seeing in your answers there remaineth falsehood?" (Job 21:27 & 34).

We ought to be very careful of reading how we read God's WORD. Rather than suggest that Job's troubles came upon him because he had the wrong thoughts, it is far better that we open our eyes and hearts and see what God says on any subject than to rest our thoughts on human ideas that cannot be defended in the WORD.

@Infourmer,

At the end of the trial, it was again confirmed that there was nothing wrong with Job to have brought such calamities. Talk about "negative thinking" - and Job made this remark about himself: "Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes" (Job 42:6), and rather than let another calamity befall this man on such "negative confession", God blessed him tremendously (vs. 10 & 12).

The simple principle that God wanted us to learn in that man's life and experiences is that, in trials and pain believers grow stronger and become even more equipped to declare His glory. "Ye have heard of the patience of Job" (James 5:11), not the "negative thinking of Job". Even the man himself understood that principle clearly when he said:

"But he knoweth the way that I take: when he hath tried me, I shall come forth as gold"
(Job 23:10)

This idea that sickness among Christians is as a result of "negative thinking" or "immature Christians" is simply the teaching of men who have not the faintest clue what they are teaching. Job did nothing wrong - (Job 2:3 - "although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause". Therefore, the idea that he was attacked by the devil for "thinking negatively" is untennable in the face of clear evidence to the contrary.

Infourmer:

So back to your passage in 2 corinthians,paul had a negative interpretation( sunesis ),if you noticed he said in verse 9

Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

He said that to straighten his interpretation,do you think if the power of Christ rest upon him ,it will LATER leave him?

Paul's interpretation in 2 Cor. 12:9 was not "negative" - for he did not invite the "infirmities" in the first place. He was clear about the real issues concerned when he said earlier:

"And lest I should be exalted above measure through
the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me
a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me,
lest I should be exalted above measure" (verse 7).

This had nothing to do with a failure on Paul's part; for that would be suggesting that he was not a credible minister of the new covenant in the first place (cf. 2 Cor. 3:5). Rather than think that the apostle got it all mixed up and therefore thought "negatively", it is obvious that those who alleged that he had a 'negative thinking' about his experience are the very ones who get it all wrong! I've heard your type of argument dozens of times - and from all counts, it simply alligns to the school of thought that a Christian can never suffer, experience sickness or even be in lack! The fact is that Scripture bears tomes of evidence to the contrary!

@Infourmer,

Paul was no stranger to suffering for Christ's sake. The other apostles also were quite conversant with suffering. Let's see what a few of them had to say:

JAMES (Jam. 1:2)
"My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations"

- - - - - - -

JOHN (Rev. 1:9)
"I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation"

- - - - - - -

BARNABAS (with Paul - Acts 14:22)
"that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God"

- - - - - - -

PETER (1 Pet. 2:20)
"but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently,
this is acceptable with God"

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you,
as though some strange thing happened unto you: But rejoice, inasmuch as
ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed,
ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. " (1 Pet. 4:12 & 13)

- - - - - - -

PAUL (Php. 1:29 & 30)
"For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him,
but also to suffer for his sake, Having the same conflict which ye saw in me,
and now hear to be in me."

"And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation
worketh patience; And patience, experience; and experience, hope" (Rom. 5:3 & 4)


Now, my dear Infourmer, going through all such texts as given above, it is typical for people to say that they tend to "negative thinking". This much would I learn of you: in 2 Cor. 11 where Paul catalogues his experiences of trials and pains, was he also thinking "negatively"? Have you considered vs. 30 where he asserted "I will glory of the things which concern mine infirmities"? What did he mean - and was he also being "negative"? If you think he was, no worries; but then you would have to chisel out all those verses where indeed the Bible affirms that trials of various sorts are a part of our Christian experiences as well - whether those trials come as persecutions, or deprivation, or even sickness. Let me remind you of what the Lord Jesus presented to suffering saints in Revelation 2:10, "Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life."

Was Christ also interpreting their situation "negatively"?

@Infourmer,

Infourmer:

Certainly not,it will remain and as it remains no more weakness(THORN) can dwell in that body.

Have the right interpretation of circumstances and all will be well without any form of sickness Stay blessed.

I hear you; but that is simply reasoning out of human passions yet again. "All will be well" is the anthem of the aforementioned school of thought in Christianity which supposes that the Christian "never" experiences sickness or trials. Nonetheless, from all the texts cited above simply demonstrate that "all is well" with believers even though they experience any kind of suffering for His name sake. It has nothing to do with the idea of thinking negatively - it has everything to do with God's sovereignty.

Infourmer:

Faith without knowledge is nothing,so is faith without love and action.

Get knowledge and act on it,you are called to do the word of God not to hear alone.

Lol. . . both faith and knowledge still didn't change the fact that the apostle per excellence of the Christian faith still experienced sickness. Faith that advertizes a knowledge which ignores the facts is a dangerous thing to parade.

Cheers.