I never said paul was fearfull, I plainly said his confession was different from what Gods plan for him was at that particular time. God never wished bad for any of his kids(Jeremiah 29:11)

I gave you a verse in my previous post that said Job lived in fear,and also a verse to make you know that fear brings a snare to a mans life. Why did job curse the day he was born if he knew all was going to be well?
God restored Job[b] after [/b] he knew where he went wrong in words.
(Job 6:3)
For now it would be heavier than the sand of the sea: therefore my words are swallowed up.(Meaning he ceased to say more)

More reason God said in Job 38 : 2
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Jobs words found him,that was God saw in Job 2:6 and said to the devil behold (see).



By the way sef,Faith is not tested when all is rossy. Your faith is tested in heavy weathers. But that didnt give you the reason to accept it and say Christians fall sick. They may be[b] tried[/b]( trial and not falling into it).

Main reason we pray "Help us not to fall into temptation" and not "Help us not to be tested"

The devil will always come with his schemes to make you think you are sick,but its just an evil day but it all depends on your armour that ye may be able to withstand. (Ephesians 6:13)


When signs of sickness come,gird yourself with Gods armour(the sword of the spirit and above all your sheild of faith)and you'll overcome it with Word.

Christ was tempted(tested) yet He overcame it with the sword of the spirit(rhema). Your judgement on circumstances matters most because your mouth makes the difference (Matthew 12:37)

[size=60pt]YOUR MOUTH MAKES THE DIFFERENCE, BELIEVE ME ![/size]

[size=60pt]Isaiah 33:24
And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.[/size]

@Infourmer,

Infourmer:

I never said paul was fearfull, I plainly said his confession was different from what Gods plan for him was at that particular time. God never wished bad for any of his kids(Jeremiah 29:11)

No vex; but this was what you stated earlier:

Infourmer:

His interpretation was negative to what God actually testified of him,He was living in FEAR.

So, what did you mean by "He was living in FEAR"? And how is that any different from saying that he was "fearful"?

Infourmer:

I gave you a verse in my previous post that said Job lived in fear,and also a verse to make you know that fear brings a snare to a mans life. Why did job curse the day he was born if he knew all was going to be well?

From what I shared, I don't see how you've dealt with the points raised in my rejoinder that God clearly declared that Job suffered those issues "without cause" (Job 2:3) - which would not have been the case if indeed the reason for those calamities was simply because he was thinking "negatively".

Pain and suffering come to believers not by reason of "negative" thinking or interpretations; and I've demonstrated that clearly from what the apostles taught, and what Christ revealed in Revelation 2:10. This is not perculiar to your idea of people being "nepios"; for even those who walked with God in the OT knew by experience that trials come to godly people without any fault of theirs:

Psalm 35:7 - "For without cause have they hid for me their net in a pit, which without cause they have digged for my soul."

Was the Psalmist there thinking "negatively" as well?

Infourmer:

God restored Job[b] after [/b] he knew where he went wrong in words.
(Job 6:3)

How is that so from the verse you quoted? This is what Job 6:3 says: "For now it would be heavier than the sand of the sea: therefore my words are swallowed up." How does that show that "God restored" Job at that point?

Infourmer:

For now it would be heavier than the sand of the sea: therefore my words are swallowed up.(Meaning he ceased to say more)

If he "ceased to say more", did you consider that he went on to speak yet more for several other chapters in that Book?

Infourmer:

More reason God said in Job 38 : 2
Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Jobs words found him,that was God saw in Job 2:6 and said to the devil behold (see).

Lol, please don't dribble words and arrive at the same thing expressed at Job 38:2 - because by misreading the text, you might as well be making the mistake of darkening counsel by words without knowledge. From the context of chapter 38 onwards when the LORD answered Job, you will not find Him reproving His man for having "negative thoughts". Besides, Job 2:6 does not teach us that it was because of anything wrong that God saw in Job that made Him grant the permission to the adversary.

Satan challenged the Almighty concerning Job to "put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face" (ch. 2:5). God yet obliged the adversary - just so that the false accusation could be put to test and found empty - as indeed it was empty at the initial testing. In chapter 1, Satan wanted only one thing - which he repeated in chapter 2; and that is for Job to curse God to His face (see ch. 1:11 and 2:5). When Satan tried and failed, what was God's reply?

Please Infourmer, don't force your ideas into Scripture - for there is no verse that shows that Job suffered those things because of "negative" thoughts. You would indeed have to ask why the Lord Jesus did not recommend the same thing as you interpret on the basis of negative thinking in Revelation 2:10.

Infourmer:

By the way sef,Faith is not tested when all is rossy. Your faith is tested in heavy weathers. But that didnt give you the reason to accept it and say Christians fall sick. They may be[b] tried[/b]( trial and not falling into it).

I never made the assumptions you're alleging. Deal with the issues as clearly as presented in my rejoinders, thank you.

Infourmer:

Main reason we pray "Help us not to fall into temptation" and not "Help us not to be tested"

I don't know how you came about the idea of "fall" into temptation. The prayer is simply that we are not LED (lead us not) into temptation. To be "led" and to "fall" into temptation are two different things.

Infourmer:

The devil will always come with his schemes to make you think you are sick,but its just an evil day but it all depends on your armour that ye may be able to withstand. (Ephesians 6:13)

I hear you. So how did it happen that the same Paul whom you quoted in Ephesians 6:13 is the same Paul who experienced infirmities as he stated in 2 Corinthians 12?

Infourmer:

When signs of sickness come,gird yourself with Gods armour(the sword of the spirit and above all your sheild of faith)and you'll overcome it with Word.

And what happened in Paul's case? How did he fail to "gird yourself" and still taught others the same verse of his epistle that you're quoting from? How is it that he did not remember to make your recommendation to Timothy, but instead ask the latter to take a little wine for his frequent (or, 'often') infirmities? This is the one thing I'm asking you to clarify, please.

Infourmer:

Christ was tempted(tested) yet He overcame it with the sword of the spirit(rhema). Your judgement on circumstances matters most because your mouth makes the difference (Matthew 12:37)

Was Christ tempted with sickness? Lol. . . this is getting funnier than I had anticipated!

I think we all need to come to a clear understanding of the WORD - and snatching verses here and there out of their contexts is certainly not the best way to go about establishing your case. And please, do you mind keeping your yelling and make your point with normal fonts? Screaming in oversized letters only betrays desperations rather than provide reason.

Regards.

Infourmer:

Isaiah 33:24
And the inhabitant shall not say, I am sick: the people that dwell therein shall be forgiven their iniquity.

Good try, but YOU are still not saying anything, especially when you forcing the texts out of their contexts!

Now a few questions:

* I hope you're not tying sickness always in reference to "sin/iniquity"?

* if that's your premise, please let me know.

Cheers.

About where I stated he (paul) was living in fear,that was off track though. Was only so immersed into Jobs story.


what made you think God allowed the devil without cause? Dont you know that Job 2:3 was before the verse where God said "behold." when God said behold,Job had already professed a negative profession. the verse 2:3 was before jobs declaration.


Like I posted earlier,temptations will come your way just because you are a believer,the devils main aim is to make you think that what God said about you is all a lie,thats his mission. So definately he would make all negativity befall a believer,but when you accept it as one of those things that need to happen and declare it with your mouth it becomes yours.


Didnt you also notice that after this verse when Job said "For now it would be heavier than the sand of the sea: therefore my words are swallowed up.(Meaning he ceased to say more)" he never gave a negative complaint about himself anymore,he only answered his friends questions,which they later left him because he never saw himself guity anymore.

job32:1
So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.



Revelation 2:10 (King James Version)

Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.


And do you think that verse up there is talking to everybody?
No it aint,its only directed to those who are left behind after ther rapture. Dont bank on that O or else you want to be left behind and given a second chance before the final one.


when you are led into temptation,is it a falling or a lifting into it ?


what made you think he did not make the same recommendation to timothy,ok what do you think he was talking about in

1 timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.


Did I ever posted the word in sickness in Christs temptation? I expected you to apply a bit of encephalon when I posted "Christ was tempted" I guess you have nothing to say to that, and I believe you know that when Christ was on the face of the earthin flesh,he never experienced any sickness,or did he?

why should we then who are Joint heirs with Christ experience any form of it,and do you also know that Paul writes as he encounters,If he hadnt experienced weakness he wudnt know how to overcome it,he shows the solution through his own weakness. May be you wana go thru the whole weakness again.You want to learn from your own mistakes,go ahead and learn as for me Sickness cant dwell in this body,because its the temple of the holy ghost.


wud you welcome a mad man into your house? Certainly not. So will the holy spirit not welcome sickness into His own temple.

Change your mindset,that where your problem is.

And as for me yelling,am just toooooo over joyous that am free from sickness and any form of disease because av been redeemed from it about 2000 easters ago.

why should I tie sickness to iniquity when av been redeemed from my own sins,its buried deep under the sea.But if you dont know,sickness will dwell in your body and you accept its the will of God.

By the way how can sickness be the will of God?

@Infourmer,

Infourmer:

About where I stated he (paul) was living in fear,that was off track though. Was only so immersed into Jobs story.

Okay, I hear. I knew that was coming, though - and you predictably abandoned it as there's no defence for your inference thereto. Cheers.

Infourmer:

what made you think God allowed the devil without cause? Dont you know that Job 2:3 was before the verse where God said "behold." when God said behold,Job had already professed a negative profession. the verse 2:3 was before jobs declaration.

If Job 2:3 was BEFORE Job's declaration, how come you're holding him accountabel for what he had not done "before" the verse that you suppose he was thinking "negative"?

Besides, Job 2:3 confirms what preceded - and God was affirming that even if Job suffered those things "without cause", he still held on to his integrity. I've heard popular pastors teach that even Job's integrity was unable to save him from his "negative" thinking; and it all too often turns out that such pastors have read their own thoughts into the Bible - as they often do. If you're holding on to such teachings, I'm now asking you to defend it as simply as you possibly could - and yet you're still unable to do so.

Infourmer:

Like I posted earlier,temptations will come your way just because you are a believer,the devils main aim is to make you think that what God said about you is all a lie,thats his mission. So definately he would make all negativity befall a believer,but when you accept it as one of those things that need to happen and declare it with your mouth it becomes yours.

Oh really? Then I suppose that is how the apostles suffered the many things that befell them during their ministry? I'm still waiting for something cogent for your defence.

Infourmer:

Didnt you also notice that after this verse when Job said "For now it would be heavier than the sand of the sea: therefore my words are swallowed up.(Meaning he ceased to say more)" he never gave a negative complaint about himself anymore,he only answered his friends questions,which they later left him because he never saw himself guity anymore.

job32:1
So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

I've heard the same set of pastors make the same inference you're making - and that's why I'm asking you to defend what you think is the case. Since you assume that Job "ceased to say anymore" after he spoke in chapter 6, my question was: what do you have to say to the fact that he still went on to speak several in several chapters?

If you then supposed that he did not confess "negative" things beyond chapter 6, then again I would like to know where he confessed "negatively" earlier than chapter 6 in order for Satan to have attacked him "without cause".

Infourmer:

Revelation 2:10 (King James Version)

Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.

And do you think that verse up there is talking to everybody?
No it aint,its only directed to those who are left behind after ther rapture. Dont bank on that O or else you want to be left behind and given a second chance before the final one.

If that verse is for those who are "left behind" after the rapture, where do you get the idea that part of the Church would be left behind after the rapture occurs? Did you fail to see that Christ was addressing the Church in Revelation 2?

Infourmer:

when you are led into temptation,is it a falling or a lifting into it ?

Being "tempted" is not the same thing as to "fall into" the temptation. If you find a verse that says they are the same thing, I'd be glad to learn about it.

Infourmer:

what made you think he did not make the same recommendation to timothy,ok what do you think he was talking about in

1 timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.

What was your recommendation - and how does that show that was the same thing that Paul was presenting to Timothy? I ask that you please try and focus on the core issues here, as it does not appear to me that you're maintaining focus on this discourse.

Infourmer:

Did I ever posted the word in sickness in Christs temptation? I expected you to apply a bit of encephalon when I posted "Christ was tempted" I guess you have nothing to say to that, and I believe you know that when Christ was on the face of the earthin flesh,he never experienced any sickness,or did he?

I wonder why you would be so desperate to quote that "Christ was tempted" when you know quite well that the present discourse is on whether or not Christians fall sick. If you know Christ's temptations had nothing to do with falling sick, why for heaven's sake would you quote it and then come back complaining when queried on that? Where did you begin to lose the plot?

Infourmer:

why should we then who are Joint heirs with Christ experience any form of it,and do you also know that Paul writes as he encounters,If he hadnt experienced weakness he wudnt know how to overcome it,he shows the solution through his own weakness. May be you wana go through the whole weakness again.You want to learn from your own mistakes,go ahead and learn as for me Sickness can't dwell in this body,because its the temple of the holy ghost.

Not to worry - this is not the first time I read lines of pride. You have not enunciated the meaning of Paul's infirmities, other than your mere inferences of his having thought "negatively", and yet haven't been able to defend it. Why make statements about Biblical characters and begin to sound desperate when queried about your assertions?

Infourmer:

would you welcome a mad man into your house? Certainly not. So will the holy spirit not welcome sickness into His own temple.

Okay, I hear. Paul and his fellowlabourers had the Holy Spirit in them. My question still is: why did they yet experience sickness, if your interpretation of Scripture holds a single coherent strand? That's just the simple issue I'd like you to help clarify - and if you yet have to come to that "NEPIOS" gimmick, could you as well demonstrate where Scripture shows that Paul and his fellowlabourers were "immature" Christians? Thank you.

Infourmer:

Change your mindset,that where your problem is.

What makes you think that my mindset is unsound simply because you have been unable to defend your interpretations of referring to mature Christians who fell sick as "nepios"? Did you ever consider that you might be mistaken for assuming Paul's companions were "immature" when in fact you have nothing to show for that inference? You asked me to defend the case that they were mature believers - I did; and what have you said thereto?

Infourmer:

And as for me yelling,am just toooooo over joyous that am free from sickness and any form of disease because av been redeemed from it about 2000 easters ago.

That's no reason to go over the top. I've enjoyed divine health by God's sovereign grace ever since I became a Christian (was formerly a Muslim); but that doesn't mean I should shout people down on account of my enjoying good health.

Infourmer:

why should I tie sickness to iniquity when av been redeemed from my own sins,its buried deep under the sea.But if you don't know,sickness will dwell in your body and you accept its the will of God.

Sorry, that simply scoots away from my questions. Do you mind revisiting them and offering straightforward answers? Thank you.

Infourmer:

By the way how can sickness be the will of God?

You should be asking Paul that same question when the Lord did not heal him of his infirmity in 2 Corinthians 12. Is it God's will for any Christian to experience suffering? Is it God's will for any Christian to endure trials?

Regards.

pilgrim.1:


I've heard the same set of pastors make the same inference you're making - and that's why I'm asking you to defend what you think is the case. Since you assume that Job "ceased to say anymore" after he spoke in chapter 6, my question was: what do you have to say to the fact that he still went on to speak several in several chapters?
If you then supposed that he did not confess "negative" things beyond chapter 6, then again I would like to know where he confessed "negatively" earlier than chapter 6 in order for Satan to have attacked him "without cause".

Note satan didnt attack Job without cause has stated above in your post. Job replied in verse 10- when his wife said some foolish words
"But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips."
But when his friends came around note what he said in 3:1
"After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day."
He cursed his day! A man God testified a good report about.Even satan knew it.
He also said in 3:25
"For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me"
Do you know what fear is? Fear is to be afraid or feel anxious or apprehensive about a possible
or probable situation or event,which definately he most have spoke about before that very day.

Let me tell you,if theres fear in your heart,it will come out of your mouth and create much fear-when I said much fear,I mean it will come out as an act.

A man God was all about, living in fear.

pilgrim.1:

Oh really? Then I suppose that is how the apostles suffered the many things that befell them during their ministry? I'm still waiting for something cogent for your defence.

hmmmn,the apostle suffered sickness because they knew not before they suffered it. TELL ME HOW MANY OF THEM SUFFERED SICKNESS TWICE?

pilgrim.1:

If Job 2:3 was BEFORE Job's declaration, how come you're holding him accountabel for what he had not done "before" the verse that you suppose he was thinking "negative"?
Besides, Job 2:3 confirms what preceded - and God was affirming that even if Job suffered those things "without cause", he still held on to his integrity. I've heard popular pastors teach that even Job's integrity was unable to save him from his "negative" thinking; and it all too often turns out that such pastors have read their own thoughts into the Bible - as they often do. If you're holding on to such teachings, I'm now asking you to defend it as simply as you possibly could - and yet you're still unable to do so.

I believe that has been answered up there in one of my replies.

pilgrim.1:

Okay, I hear. Paul and his fellowlabourers had the Holy Spirit in them. My question still is: why did they yet experience sickness, if your interpretation of Scripture holds a single coherent strand? That's just the simple issue I'd like you to help clarify - and if you yet have to come to that "NEPIOS" gimmick, could you as well demonstrate where Scripture shows that Paul and his fellowlabourers were "immature" Christians? Thank you.

Well they did experienced sickness because they were yet to understand that they were not suppose to.

Or did you read anywhere in the bible that says a man is subject to sickness,but I can show you a place that says a believer is not subject to sickness.


Paul only witnessed sickness,so that we may know that Gods grace is sufficient for us not to be sick,for without him experiencing sickness he wudnt have have asked God to take it off him,and God wudnt have replied "My grace is surfficient for thee"

Back in the early years when people die of malaria,was it not because they hadnt found the cure?
Do people still fall dead easily with malaria? I don't think so,because there is an understanding of the cure.

Light shed on darkness would probably make darkness disappear.
Your mind is too based on experiencing what paul experienced,but I must say don't try to experience all. Make the victorious one yours

Because 

Isaiah 53:4
Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted.

Isaiah 53:5
But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

You should probably ask "healed from what?"  And I'll answer you saying "whom the son has freed is free indeed" (John 8:36)

Are they not human, _{which ones are the fake}

@Infourmer,

Lol. . . Thank you for taking time out to try and explain your persuasion about this issue of the attack on Job; but you don't seem to have presented anything new. Your real problem is that you're getting carried away with the word "fear" and not able to see the real issues that was involved in what Job suffered.

I'm going to give you time to come round this problem, while asking you to address one little question:

What exactly was Job's "fear"?

Perhaps, you will be able to see the reason why you haven't presented any real gist on what you've been trying to share - and until then, I'll just sit back and await your answers.

Cheers.

pilgrim.1:


What exactly was Job's "fear"?

What is there to point out of his fear?
If you have not yet noticed what his fear was based on,try reading the calamities that fell upon him.

Didnt you noticed in 1:10 when satan said to God

"Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land."


And again I guess you didnt notice when its said in

Ecclesiastes 10:8
"He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him."

Job himself knew God had prepared an hedge around him,yet he was afraid all these calamities will befall him,note he said in

Job 3:23
Why is life given to a man whose way is hidden, whom God has hedged in?

It was more or less like he had no trust in the Lords protection. I wouldnt want to say he's faith was weak.

Noticed in Job 1:20-22 when he lost all he had,he still worshiped God.

At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship and said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; ay the name of the LORD be praised." In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

But why did he go on cursing his day when he was touched in chapter 2?

And said

Job3:25
For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.


If you don't get it this time then I'll know theres no point ruling points out,its all in your mind.Christ never fell sick when he was on the face of the earth in flesh as Man.

So why should I,when the life I live now is not mine but HIS through Faith?

Jesus Christ, the son of God should not be used to rationalize what is incorrect. Pilgrims position on this issue is correct. Hope discussants will have the humility to accept that they made an error instead of trying to justify what is unjustifiable at all costs. In addition there is no demonstrable evidence to show that Jesus fall or did not fall sick. Many have championed this wrong belief that if they truely believe and serve God, they will not fall sick and all of them became victims of their incorrect belief. Many within and outside christaindaom have preached this, when followers fall sick, they are told that they do not have enough faith, Interestingly the very founders of this unsound doctrine did die of illnesses they believed never existed. If you are blessed with good health, thank God for his mercies and protection but to believe that you earned it because you are a genuine believer is spiritual arrogance. Such a belief will finally create the condition for such individuals to experience what they believed will never happen to them. Therefore, give Gratitude to God for his grace and you will recieve more but a hidden pharasiacal conviction that it cannot happen to you will block further grace for it is lacking in humility.

@m_nwankwo,

Lol. . . many thanks for your observations. We're taking this issue bit by bit - and soon enough, some of our brethren who have mixed up issues will find out just where they're missing it all.

Cheers.

Dear Infourmer,

Infourmer:

What is there to point out of his fear?
If you have not yet noticed what his fear was based on,try reading the calamities that fell upon him.

There's a reason why I asked the question as to what exactly was Job's "fear", because I observed that your defences are simply the typical ideas of some preachers who have missed the whole point. Why do I say 'typical'? For the simple reason that what you're presenting is nothing new from what I've already perused again and again - and when such people are asked to identify Job's "fear", they have not been able to do so. Unfortunately, you have not been able to identify what his "fear" was - and that is why your presentations are still forcing issues into the text.

Now, let me share with you the meaning of Job's "fear". But before I do so, let me offer a few remarks to your previous post.

Here are a few things to help you sort out the knots:

Infourmer:

Note satan didnt attack Job without cause has stated above in your post. Job replied in verse 10- when his wife said some foolish words
"But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips."

Earlier, my point was that Satan's attack on Job was not as a result of any "negative thinking" you alleged - and that is what I wanted you to clarify.

Infourmer:

But when his friends came around note what he said in 3:1
"After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day."
He cursed his day! A man God testified a good report about.Even satan knew it.

Did Satan attack Job based on what occured in ch. 3:1, or based on the fact that Satan wanted Job to curse God to His face (ch. 1:9-11)? This is the one thing you guys keep evading - you ignore the real issues and then draw the wrong inferences all the way from chapter 3 based on Job's suffering!

Infourmer:

He also said in 3:25
"For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me"
Do you know what fear is? Fear is to be afraid or feel anxious or apprehensive about a possible
or probable situation or event,which definately he most have spoke about before that very day.

The text is not based on "probability"; and to predicate it on "a probable situation or event" is to try to read our own thoughts into the text - the very same thing as eisegesis.

However, you may want to consider what exactly Job's "fear" was by comparing ch. 3:25 & 26 with ch. 1:5. In the latter, we read: "for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually." That was precisely what Job had "feared" - not for himself; but rather for his sons, whom he supposed might have sinned and cursed God in their hearts.

It was a common understanding that in early times the sins of particular members in a family would have adverse effect on others. Sample the following:

"I will set my face against that man, and against his family" (Lev. 20:5)

"Your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD,
which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills:
therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom. " (Isa. 65:7)

"visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and
fourth generation." (Num. 14:18)

Even in NT times, people were well-aware that the sins of particular members of a family may have adverse effects on others. That is why we read in John 9:2 - "And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?" The answer of the Lord is obvious - that the man's blindness was not a result of his parents having sinned - "Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him" (vs. 3).

Such was the real "fear" of Job - he was afraid that "it may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts" (Job 1:5), and the repercussions would indeed be devasting. For even he himself reported later that "God layeth up his iniquity for his children: he rewardeth him, and he shall know it" (Job 21:19).

People have imagined that Job suffered the things he did because he had "negative thinking" as the main reason why Satan attacked him. Such people have failed to define precisely what Job's fears were - and the presupposition that God allowed satanic attack on Job is to ignore the fact that God Himself declared that Job suffered the terrible things that befell him "without cause" (Job 2:3). Rather than look at what God had declared, people have taken their eyes away from what God declared and substituted their own inferences into the event.

@Infourmer,

Let me tell you,if theres fear in your heart,it will come out of your mouth and create much fear-when I said much fear,I mean it will come out as an act.

A man God was all about, living in fear.

Lol, that is why I asked you to define particularly what "fear" Job really had. Just mentioning "fear", "fear", is not really saying anything until you identify what the real issue was. God did not allow Job suffer what he did on account of any fear the latter had; rather, it is clear that satanic attack came unto him for the simple reason that Satan wanted Job to curse God to His face (Job 1:11). That is the real issue - and whether or not Job expressed any fear is not the issue here; especially because you have not been able to identify what Job meant by his "fear".

@Infourmer,

Now, here's a review of your latest reposte:

Infourmer:

Didnt you noticed in 1:10 when satan said to God

"Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land."


And again I guess you didnt notice when its said in

Ecclesiastes 10:8
"He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him."

Job himself knew God had prepared an hedge around him,yet he was afraid all these calamities will befall him,note he said in

Job 3:23
Why is life given to a man whose way is hidden, whom God has hedged in?

Indeed I noticed all those references. But it seems to me that people who read their own thoughts into Scripture are typically doing what I'd call "concordance preaching". By that, I mean that people usually look for a particular word in a book of the Bible (in this case "hedge" and then they magnify their fancies on such a word without the slightest clue of the CONTEXT of such words!

This is why I'd like you to clam down and reflect on yet another question:

You quoted Eccl. 10:8 ("and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him" to prove that Job indeed was attacked by Satan because of the former's "negative thinking", abi? No wahala. I would like you to please offer a clear answer to this: WHO BROKE THE HEDGE - was it God? Or Job? Or Satan? Whatever your answer, please simply demonstrate the case with clear texts from the Bible. Thank you.

Infourmer:

It was more or less like he had no trust in the Lords protection. I wouldnt want to say he's faith was weak.

That's an amzing contradiction! If you wouldn't want to say that his faith was weak, then you're otherwise acknowledging that his faith was "strong". Now if you're saying that latter, are you not contradicting your asumption that "he had no trust in the Lords protection"?

This is the amazing thing in this kind of reasoning: saying something - and yet not actually saying anything. It's either Job had 'strong' faith in God; or he simply did not trust the LORD at all. Which is which?

@Infourmer,

Infourmer:

Noticed in Job 1:20-22 when he lost all he had,he still worshiped God.

I noticed - and does that "prove" that he had no trust in the Lord's protection? I think what has been happening is that people try to justify their preconceived notions about what they think were the reasons for Job's suffering; and yet, all such reasoning only amounts to accusing Job unfairly in as much as people make contradictory statements that they can not soundly defend from God's WORD as regards this man.

Infourmer:

But why did he go on cursing his day when he was touched in chapter 2?

And said

Job3:25
For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

I've dealt with what Job's "fear" was. He did not "fear" that Satan might attack him - rather, he feared that it may be that his sons had sinned, "and cursed God in their hearts" (Job 1:5). If you notice - that was the very thing that Satan was seeking all along: to make Job and his family CURSE God >>

(Job. 1:11 - "But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath,
and he will curse thee to thy face".

(Job 2:5 - "But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh,
and he will curse thee to thy face. "

When Satan did not succeed, he next tried to use Job's wife to fulfill that aim:

(Job 2:9 - "Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity?
curse God, and die."

This man's faith in God was solid enough not to cave in under the weight of his suffering and then yield to Satan. The enemy does not care whether or not you can confess the throne of God for a hedge around you: one thing he is seeking in his accusations against the brethren day and night is this: CURSE God to His face! That is the real issue here, my dear Infourmer - and to misread the text and talk all day about Job's "fear" and yet not being able to identify it, is to accuse this spiritual giant called Job in an unfair manner (Job 21:34 -- "How then comfort ye me in vain, seeing in your answers there remaineth falsehood?".

I do hope that people who try to force their thoughts into the book of Job will tae care to seek an understanding of the real issues and not just fastiduosly push the agenda of a "negative thinking" theory that is not in the text. God's declaration is explicit - Job suffered those things "without cause" (Job 2:3)!!!

Infourmer:

If you don't get it this time then I'll know theres no point ruling points out,its all in your mind.Christ never fell sick when he was on the face of the earth in flesh as Man.

Now if you go through my rejoinders, you'll find that you've been pushing something you made up but could not defend - especially as regards Job's "fear". I never said Christ fell sick - and to try and interject that idea into this discussion only further betrays the fact that no one is reading answers from your theories.

Let me assure you: it's not in my mind - the facts are in the WORD. Divine health is by the sovereign grace of God; and from the experience of some of the Lord's finest saints and apostles, it is obvious that even they also experienced sickness. I haven't seen you clearly defend otherwise that they did NOT; but you have rather accused them of being NEPIOS!

I'd rather that we look into God's WORD and settle our thoughts there - and not try to make Scripture fit preconceived ideas that up until now you haven't clearly defended.

Infourmer:

So why should I,when the life I live now is not mine but HIS through Faith?

Paul lived a life of faith in Christ - so did his fellowlabourers - and yet they experienced sickness. Just because some of us by His mercy enjoy the grace of good health for long periods should not give us any grounds to claim that others are NEPIOS - much less the apostle unto whom the mystery of Christ was committed!

Cheers.

I clearly see that all av said are no path to get your mind straight. For your info,I never called anyone in the bible NEPIOS, I called you NEPIOS.

See pilgrim,it wont get anywhere even if I say more.

I have chosen to believe God for his Word because I know He's word shall go forth and accomplish that which he please,and I surely know that it'll prosper in the thing where with he sends it. He has sent it and I have found it.

Isaiah 53:4-5
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

why would I want to allow all that to go in vain and chose to allow sickness rule over my body. Lilai.

I think my believe is different from yours. Go in peace.

But one thing still baffles me: A snake bit paul and he shook it off

(Act 28:5)
And he shook off the beast into the fire, and felt no harm.

why do think he didnt pray to God to help him with the venom?
Well I think its because Christ himself said before this time that

Mark 16:18
They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


Paul knew so well he could not be hurt from the the vipers venom,he knew he could heal the sick, but tell me where was the revelation he was suppose to act on,when he found himself sick. why would God reply him that HE'S grace is surfficient for him,if he had already knew it?

Face it. Paul fell sick so that we might have a revelation to act on. If he had not,we would sure not know that His grace is surfficient for us.

Because paul and some other disciples fell sick,those that give you the impression that they knew everything before they fell sick?

As their life continued they mature more in Christ,didnt you know that ?


when this revelation was given,do think it was a bible joke?
Exodus 23:25
Worship the LORD your God, and his blessing will be on your food and water. I will take away sickness from among you.

That same sickness which he'll take,do you think God will give the chance of it returning?

Christ said Luke 11:24
When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest; and finding none, he saith, I will return unto my house whence I came out.

And when he cometh, he findeth it swept and garnished.

Then goeth he, and taketh to him seven other spirits more wicked than himself; and they enter in, and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first.


Didnt you notice that one can only experience sickness twice if the house(the body)is not properly safe guard with the word?


Anyway am not expecting you to see reasons though,because your belief is different from mine.

@Infourmer,

Infourmer:

I clearly see that all av said are no path to get your mind straight. For your info,I never called anyone in the bible NEPIOS, I called you NEPIOS.

Lol. . . many thanks for that appellation.

Oya, wey ricaldelide and cgift? You don see am finish?    I knew this was coming - and that's why I said he was being "mild"!

Anyhow, dear Infourmer, there's no need to be over-reactive on this issue. It's got nothing to do with my personally persuasions. If the things you assert cannot be pointed out in Scripture, then there would simply be no need to keep pushing them as if that is what the WORD teaches. All the same, thank you for the "nepios" - at least, you helped me make some new friends where I work (as that nickname sounds so sweet when they call it).  

Infourmer:

See pilgrim,it wont get anywhere even if I say more.

Okay, I hear. I would rather have hoped you would settle your thoughts on God's WORD.

Infourmer:

I have chosen to believe God for his Word because I know He's word shall go forth and accomplish that which he please,and I surely know that it'll prosper in the thing where with he sends it. He has sent it and I have found it.

Amen, bro. . . but that is no reason for us to make untrue statements about the apostle Paul, his fellowlabourers or even the might saint of God - Job.

Infourmer:

Isaiah 53:4-5
Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

why would I want to allow all that to go in vain and chose to allow sickness rule over my body. Lilai.

Neither apostle Paul "chose" to allow sickness "rule" over his body. The one thing he was careful to point our eyes on is the glory of Christ, not presumptions of a super-spirituality that often has nothing to say in the face of hard facts in the Bible concerning the exeriences of God's true servants.

Infourmer:

I think my believe is different from yours. Go in peace.

I wouldn't say that - in as much as we both believe in Christ. But all the same, shalom.

@pilgrim1

I am clapping for you here. You are crossing sword with another.

THIS IS THE DOCTRINE OF NAME IT CLAIM IT AND IS WHAT YOU ARE FIGHTING.

THIS DOCTRINE CONDEMN MEN OF GOD IN THE BIBLE.

THIS DOCTRINE MAKES GOD LOOK LIKE A MECHANIC OR A SHOE SHINER.

DO THIS AND GET THIS

IF YOU DON'T FEAR NOTHING WILL HAPPEN TO YOU?

It is true that we as Christians are not supposed to be fearful but you see the DOCTRINE IS AN EXTRAPOLATION OF THE TRUTH.

Bad things happen to good and bad people Just as Good things happen to bad and Good people. Some people say that Job was Afraid that is why he was tested.

Lest us look at David, Paul the apostle Abram the father of faith( was it smooth sailing for Abram) What about Moses.

Pilgrim1 this doctrine is always before the Slaughter. "believe that you will win always" even if you are a Sinner or not Just don't fear. So any message that makes you "fear"(the real target is the fear of God) will be immediately thrown away as an Evil message.

Look at what happened to the Children of Israel Under the Leadership of a demon Possessed king as SAUL there was the misleading of the people to war and what happened a great Slaughter!

The people were fearless but evil came upon them in War and they were defeated.

When God killed the man that wanted to help God by Saving the Arc of the Lord from falling WAS HE FEARLESS OR FEARFUL.


Pilgrim This man that you have debated with has this false doctrine and you can only show him with Love in your heart.

@Backslider,

How body?

Well, wetin man pikin for do? I was once almost taken in by the "name-it-claim-it" syndrome; but I can't be thankful enough that God opened my eyes to what I'm trying to share on the Forum. I don't claim anything special for myself; but I'm just seeking to understand people who try to read their thoughts into God's WORD and yet not be able to defend what they assert.

Lol. . . cheers, and enjoy.

@pilgrim, you so much believe that you have all the bible ref to back you up.

Oya tell me where in the Word those it states that Christians are meant to experience sickness?


I showed you so many that states they are not meant to experience sickness,yet you said I didnt bring out any prove.

And if you so much claim that Christians are meant to suffer sickness,then you have publicly called God a lair.Same thing God was trying to make Paul understand when it states here
2 corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

The power of Christ rested. where again did paul experienced sickness?

@infourmer

You are Preaching false doctrine.

Tell me where in the bible that we are not supposed to be sick? Bible ref please

@Infourmer,

I think you're still not quite helping issues here; and the one thing that might have proven helpful in your position is what is seriously lacking - and that is, CONTEXT. When people read their thoughts and ideas into God's WORD, context is betrayed and pretext takes over; and dear brother, I do pray you don't linger in such.

Here's what I've to say in your latest reposte:

Infourmer:

Paul knew so well he could not be hurt from the the vipers venom,he knew he could heal the sick, but tell me where was the revelation he was suppose to act on,when he found himself sick. why would God reply him that HE'S grace is surfficient for him,if he had already knew it?

In the first place, why would Paul have asked the Lord THREE times to remove whatever was his suffering/infirmity if he did not already know that the Lord was his healer? He already knew that Christ heals - and that was what prompted his asking THREE times; but the wise apostle knew that his apostleship was connected to something that which the Lord Himself announced from the very onset would accompany Paul's ministry:

      Acts 9:16
      "For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake."

This is the huge point that we often miss in discussing subjects on healings and deliverance.

But here's the basic thing we ought to keep in focus: (a) we do believe in healing in Jesus name; (b) but we also know that our bodies are not yet glorified while as yet present here before Christ's returns; (c) in which case, we understand in all the revelation of God's WORD, that nowhere did God teach us that a Christian can NEVER be sick; (d) for we know that even mature believers in Christ also experienced sickness [not by choice, even though the Lord clearly did not heal some - according to His divine purposes].

Infourmer:

Face it. Paul fell sick so that we might have a revelation to act on. If he had not,we would sure not know that His grace is surfficient for us.

Sorry, but there are two things you are admitting to:

      (a) indeed, Paul fell sick - which answers the question of this thread

      (b) you substituting an idea for a fact; for the reason why Paul experienced sickness
           was so that "lest I should be exalted above measure" (2 Cor. 12:7); and not so
           that "we might have a revelation to act on". The whole passage clearly shows
           that Paul was not healed after beseeching the Lord THREE times.

Infourmer:

Because paul and some other disciples fell sick,those that give you the impression that they knew everything before they fell sick?

At the time they fell sick, they knew enough and had experienced the Lord's power in healing and several other acts of miracles. When Paul was writing to Timothy, he was quite an experienced apostle - and there's no way you can argue otherwise; nor have you been able to demonstrate that he was an immature believer when he was sick or when his fellowlabourers experienced sickness. As such, why would he then have asked Timothy to take some wine for the latter's frequent infrmities (1 Tim. 5:23)?

Infourmer:

As their life continued they mature more in Christ,didnt you know that ?

I knew that; but I don't confuse the facts.

3 John 1:2
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

psalm 42:11
For I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God.


Psalm 67:2
That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations

Proverbs 3:8
It(The Word) shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

Proverbs 4:22
For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.

HAVE YOU FOUND IT?

So many more but for time,that should do.Its now your turn,show me where it states that Christians are mmeant to experience sickness?

Infourmer:

3 John 1:2
Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

psalm 42:11
For I shall yet praise him, who is the health of my countenance, and my God.


Psalm 67:2
That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations

Proverbs 3:8
It(The Word) shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.

Proverbs 4:22
For they are life unto those that find them, and health to all their flesh.

HAVE YOU FOUND IT?

So many more but for time,that should do.Its now your turn,show me where it states that Christians are mmeant to experience sickness?

NONE of those verses teaches that a Christian is not supposed to be sick. To use these as your defence is to ignore the fact that mature believers in Christ experienced various kinds of trials - including sickness. What then happened to them?

Take the Prov. 4:22 that you quoted - you fail to see that the book of Proverbs is given mainly in parabolic language:

Proverbs 1:6 - "To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings."

That is why I wonder at your "concordance preaching".

guess infourmer you are bussy.

You have misrepresented the Scripture.

Infourmer:

What is there to point out of his fear?
If you have not yet noticed what his fear was based on,try reading the calamities that fell upon him.

Didnt you noticed in 1:10 when satan said to God

"Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land."


And again I guess you didnt notice when its said in

Ecclesiastes 10:8
"He that diggeth a pit shall fall into it; and whoso breaketh an hedge, a serpent shall bite him."

Job himself knew God had prepared an hedge around him,yet he was afraid all these calamities will befall him,note he said in

Job 3:23
Why is life given to a man whose way is hidden, whom God has hedged in?

It was more or less like he had no trust in the Lords protection. I wouldnt want to say he's faith was weak.

Noticed in Job 1:20-22 when he lost all he had,he still worshiped God.

At this, Job got up and tore his robe and shaved his head. Then he fell to the ground in worship and said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, and naked I will depart. The LORD gave and the LORD has taken away; ay the name of the LORD be praised." In all this, Job did not sin by charging God with wrongdoing.

But why did he go on cursing his day when he was touched in chapter 2?

And said

Job3:25
For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

Yes he Greatly feared it but he was Prepared for It. He was Expecting Evil to come and there is nothing wrong with that, He could have feared because of his son may they sinned and that his was he Sacrificed. It may be his Wife that sinned.

He JOB FEARED GOD
Job 1

1There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

NOW LOOK AT WHAT WAS THE TRUE ROOT OF JOB'S FEAR

5And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.


Achan sinned and all his household was Slaughtered

[/quote] If you don't get it this time then I'll know theres no point ruling points out,its all in your mind.Christ never fell sick when he was on the face of the earth in flesh as Man.

So why should I,when the life I live now is not mine but HIS through Faith?
[quote]

THE REASON WHY PILGRIM ASKED YOU WHY IS BECAUSE WE SEE THAT GOD WAS NOT TESTING JOB BECAUSE OF HIS FEAR FOR HIM OR EVIL TO COME ON HIM BUT HE WAS TESTING JOB TO SHOW SATAN THAT JOBS RIGHTEOUSNESS WAS NOT BASED ON WHAT HE GOD COULD DO FOR HIM JOB.

7And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

8And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

9Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

THIS IS WHY THE BIBLE CALLS HIM THE ACCUSER OF THE BRETHREN.

Didnt you find any place that states that Christians are not meant to fall sick?

proverbs 1:2-7

2To know wisdom and instruction; to perceive the words of understanding;

3To receive the instruction of wisdom, justice, and judgment, and equity;

4To give[b] subtilty [/b] to the simple, to the young man knowledge and discretion.

5A wise man will hear, and will increase learning; and a man of understanding shall attain unto wise counsels:

6To understand a proverb, and the interpretation; the words of the wise, and their dark sayings.

7The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction.

pilgrim.1:

To use these as your defence is to ignore the fact that mature believers in Christ experienced various kinds of trials - including sickness. What then happened to them?

Do you knwo what they believed?
They might be on the same side as you to believe they are meant to suffer sickness as part of their prize to pay for being a Christian.