Olabowale stop making noise . . . the disciples bought no swords because they, unlike you blind hypocrites, understood that Christ was not refering to a physical sword there. Paul, Peter, James, John and co went about preaching the gospel . . . no where are we told they needed swords to force their message down the throats of converts.

As for GIST and his noise making on Matthew 15: 4 pls christians shld kindly read from verse 1 to understand that Christ was using that verse to teach the pharisees a lesson.
Also pls note that Christ was not laying down a commandment there but was actually quoting verbatim from the laws of Moses in Exodus 21: 17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

olabowale:

@+Osisi: I just can not resist just this once; +Osisi, if what you just said about the followers of Jesus is true, they are either disbelievers in the messengership of Jesus, while he was with them. They must have been bunch of hypocrites! Lack sincerity! If the followers did not believe, then you must have been taking the story from the mouth of these disbelievers to mean something. The book they produced as eye witnesses must be filled with lies and deceits and fallacies. No wonder Qur'an says that it is corrupted. It is from corrupt people! No wonder the larger body of Jewry did not follow nor believe Jesus.

Now if the followers obeyed him, then you have embelished to the point that you bent the rule of truth. I do not want to say that you are telling bold face lies. I do not want any woman to be angry at me! Either way, Mrs., there is a bit of a whale of a whopper here. I think the overwhelming power of the Mob that came for Jesus was just the reason the Sword purchased did not amount to anything. If the 12 apostles, less Iscariot had put up any struggle, they would have crushed like flies! But God's plan was to extracated Jesus the way He did, so that can come back to fight the Anti Christ and 'the Jews in the battle of Amageddon.' Good night! Everyone is casting Pearls. When will some dame wear a good strand?

Chei Mr alhaji,when will you get it ?
That question was meant to juggle your mind and see the foolishness in gists post.
anyway,wasn't you that told me onward christian soldiers was a war anthem for Christian jihad?
I no go die

+osisi:

And exactly how many Christians have been put to death for cursing their parents?

I expect you to provide the ans. cos its in your book stated by your 1/3God. Maybe we should go memory lane and check the attrocities that were done by the early church leaders AGAINST THEIR FELLOW CHRISTIAN brethrens --so much for a peaceful religion._{sorry don't have time for that now}

+osisi:

You don't have the Spirit of God and try as you may,you'll never understand the Bible.

If you're refering to the spirit of the trinity, then I completely agree with you that I don't have it and guess what I DON'T WANT/NEED IT!! and I certainly won't waist my precious time time trying to understand a corrupted/fabricated and rank xeroxed collection books/letters

+osisi:

Now have you sat to ask yourself this very simple question.

How come Jesus asked his followers to buy a physical sword,they did not heed that command instead the Muslims not only bought swords but use it to snap the necks of their neighbours?

davidylan:

Olabowale stop making noise . . . the disciples bought no swords because they, unlike you blind hypocrites, understood that Christ was not refering to a physical sword there. Paul, Peter, James, John and co went about preaching the gospel . . . no where are we told they needed swords to force their message down the throats of converts.

Exodus 21: 17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

You guys are either a bunch of hypocrites, or unbelievably naive or you just don't read/understand your bible as you proclaim. I delibrately stopped at that verse. Now please read further to verse 38 (i.e Luke 22:38 and for God's sake read from verse 1 to get the whole picture). I'm sure you'll be surprised that THEY ACTUALLY GOT PHYSICAL SWORD!!!

davidylan:

As for GIST and his noise making on Matthew 15: 4 please christians shld kindly read from verse 1 to understand

Dav, read my previous posst again, I quoted verses 1-9 so we won't run the risk of quoting the bible oout of context. I didn't just quote verse 4 like most of you would pick a verse in the quran.

davidylan:

Also please note that Christ was not laying down a commandment there but was actually quoting verbatim from the laws of Moses in Exodus 21: 17 And he that curseth his father, or his mother, shall surely be put to death.

Makes it even more weighty!! We're talking about a commandment in the OT (which many of you have turned away from) that is being referenced and quoted by your lord in the NT. Common this is the height of hypocracy and double-standard and it stinks cos you reject what Jesus said expecially when he used the word MUST. Remember what he said in Matthew 5:17-18 that he didn't come to abolish the laws but to fulfill them and now saying this again. Talk about a consistent and rightous man

@gists,

gists:

I expect you to provide the ans. because its in your book stated by your 1/3God. Maybe we should go memory lane and check the attrocities that were done by the early church leaders AGAINST THEIR FELLOW CHRISTIAN brethrens --so much for a peaceful religion._{sorry don't have time for that now}

The world over, Muslims have proven that Islam is a violent religion by default. Even if the clerics on either side were to follow precisely what was commanded them in their holy writs, this is how it stands:

    ~ there are no verses in the Torah for Jews to kill Muslims

    ~ there are no verses in the Bible for Christians to kill Muslims

    ~ both in the Qur'an and Hadiths, 'Allah' commands MUSLIMS everywhere
       to kill BOTH Jews and Christians.

You may search till Muhammad turns in his grave for verses for the first two cases; but we don't need to look hard for verses for the thrid case.

gists:

If you're refering to the spirit of the trinity, then I completely agree with you that I don't have it and guess what I DON'T WANT/NEED IT!!

Very sad. As a Muslim, that would mean that Muhammad's doctrines of a human soul and body (plus the spirit) is a mere hogwash - and you certainly do not NEED such a waste from him either!

gists:

and I certainly won't waist my precious time time trying to understand a corrupted/fabricated and rank xeroxed collection books/letters

No worries - the Qur'an is a classic collection of Arabian tales. The last time a Muslim (shawn123) tried to wave the lie in our face that the Qur'an has been exactly as Muhammad received it wthout a change anywhere in dot or letter, I simply requested him to turn his gaze to the facts. I am still waiting since the last time he logged out.

gists:

You guys are either a bunch of hypocrites, or unbelievably naive or you just don't read/understand your bible as you proclaim.

Thank you. For all of that, the Qur'an disproves your vexations - for it is the same Qur'an that respects Christians are people who are "devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (Qur'an 5 v 82). We do read our Bibles - maybe that's what is frustrating you so much.

gists:

I delibrately stopped at that verse. Now please read further to verse 38 (i.e Luke 22:38 and for God's sake read from verse 1 to get the whole picture). I'm sure you'll be surprised that THEY ACTUALLY GOT PHYSICAL SWORD!!

Did you read the whole picture to understand that Jesus NEVER meant that they should get physical swords? WHY, O WHY did He not encourage them to use it when they weilding the swords?

gists:

Dav, read my previous posst again, I quoted verses 1-9 so we won't run the risk of quoting the bible oout of context. I didn't just quote verse 4 like most of you would pick a verse in the quran.

Many times we quote groups of verses from the Qur'an - not pick verses here and there as you suggest. Even when you assume that Dav was quoting the Bible out of context, you have not demonstrated a coherent explication of what you are quoting; rather, you are forcing your own pretext into the texts and hoping that others would buy into your cheap offer.

gists:

Makes it even more weighty!! We're talking about a commandment in the OT (which many of you have turned away from) that is being referenced and quoted by your lord in the NT.

That is why +osisi has asked you to please show where in the NT we as Christians are commanded to kill anyone for cursing father or mother. Have you found the verse? The point is that Christians do not need to CURSE their parents - go figure; and if you study the verses you are referencing,m you'd find that the CONTEXT is towards the JEWS, for Jesus was addressing JEWS and not CHRISTAINS!

gists:

Common this is the height of hypocracy and double-standard and it stinks because you reject what Jesus said expecially when he used the word MUST.

The hypocrisy is in Muslims who argue that Jesus was making an express command to CHRISTIANS in the referred verses where He actually was addressing the JEWS in quoting EXODUS! The hypocrisy is in Muslims trying to force their own pretexts into the Bible and then hola that they have been quoted out of context when the same Muslims obviously are the ones tearing the verses out of their contexts. The hypocrisy is further highlighted in Muslims who try to force their ideas of Muhammad into Deuteronomy - and when that fallacy was exposed, they hypocritically turned again to attack the same Biblical scriptures they had once quoted for Muhammad!

gists:

Remember what he said in Matthew 5:17-18 that he didn't come to abolish the laws but to fulfill them and now saying this again. Talk about a consistent and rightous man

Neither did He say that He came to re-enact the LAW. The fulfilling of the LAW is not the same thing as trying to re-enact, re-impose, or re-introduce the LAW. He came to fulfill the LAW - and He Himself demonstrated that He had done so after His resurrection (Luke 24:44). The consequence of His having fulfilled the LAW was that the Gospel could then be preached to ALL NATIONS so that everyone could be freely forgiven and receive the gift of salvation in Jesus Christ.

@pilgrim.1

pilgrim.1:

The world over, Muslims have proven that Islam is a violent religion by default. Even if the clerics on either side were to follow precisely what was commanded them in their holy writs, this is how it stands:

    ~ there are no verses in the Torah for Jews to kill Muslims

    ~ there are no verses in the Bible for Christians to kill Muslims

    ~ both in the Qur'an and Hadiths, 'Allah' commands MUSLIMS everywhere
       to kill BOTH Jews and Christians.

You may search till Muhammad turns in his grave for verses for the first two cases; but we don't need to look hard for verses for the thrid case.

I'm sorry this is not very intellectually challenging. The first two verses could not have existed cos their were no muslms then (at least by the name) and I dont know about the third verse you're talikng about in the Quran. You said it your self the way the Quran vies christians and Jew in your post

pilgrim.1:

for it is the same Qur'an that respects Christians are people who are "devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant" (Qur'an 5 v 82).

pilgrim.1:

The last time a Muslim (shawn123) tried to wave the lie in our face that the Qur'an has been exactly as Muhammad received it wthout a change anywhere in dot or letter, I simply requested him to turn his gaze to the facts. I am still waiting since the last time he logged out.

He probably left cos of the heap of hate yoou gys are spilling all over. I left too you know. And their's nothing to show you. The onus is on you to provide prove tho butress your accusations.

pilgrim.1:

WHY, O WHY did He not encourage them to use it when they weilding the swords?

Cos they were out-numbered and out-equipped. I beleive Bro Olabowale has provided sufficient explanations to that.

pilgrim.1:

That is why +osisi has asked you to please show where in the NT we as Christians are commanded to kill anyone for cursing father or mother. Have you found the verse? The point is that Christians do not need to CURSE their parents - go figure; and if you study the verses you are referencing,m you'd find that the CONTEXT is towards the JEWS, for Jesus was addressing JEWS and not CHRISTAINS!

And you think mathew and luke are part of the OT? I stand to be corrected I tot the NT is comprises of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1Corinthians, 2Corinthians, Galatians bla, bla, bla. Or have they been REVISED to the OT now?

pilgrim.1:

@gists,
The hypocrisy is in Muslims who argue that Jesus was making an express command to CHRISTIANS in the referred verses where He actually was addressing the JEWS in quoting EXODUS!

My sister pls get this right now, Jesus could not have been addressing the christians cos he never saw them!! Christianity/christians only came into existence about 40yrs after Jesus left. Its somewhere in the acts. The point is if you guys are sincere with yourself and Jesus as you claim to follow his teaching, you would do as he says and not try to manipulate and embelish a direct sentence.

pilgrim.1:

@gists,
Neither did He say that He came to re-enact the LAW. The fulfilling of the LAW is not the same thing as trying to re-enact, re-impose, or re-introduce the LAW. He came to fulfill the LAW

You only re-enact something that is dead/dormant. The law was always their, it just needs to be fulfilled. Hence, he came to fulfill them!! the words of Jesus are correct yet again

@gists,

gists:

@pilgrim.1 I'm sorry this is not very intellectually challenging.

It may be so for you; because I haven't read anything intellectually sound in your rejoinders so far except the fact that you keep spinning the same otiose remarks and not being able to clearly distinguis between the various groups of people you try to discuss between the Qur'an, the Bible and the Jewish Torah.

gists:

The first two verses could not have existed because their were no muslms then (at least by the name)

Thank you for confirming once again that Muslims have no consistent position in their convictions. Is it not Muslims themselves who have argued that there were MUSLIMS before Muhammad? Is it not Muslim scholars that have been propagating the same idea that the FIRST Muslim was ADAM (some say Abraham). Which one of these schgolars seems to be deceiving themselves?

So, let me guess: there were no Muslims during the era I pointed out; but your Qur'an assumes that there were Muslims already before the emergence of the Jewish nation?

Are you quite in need of a redaction here?

gists:

and I don't know about the third verse you're talikng about in the Quran.

A nice way of suddenly making out that you no longer remember the teaching of the Qur'an. Let's juggle your memory with just one of such numerous verses:

Qur'an 4 v 89

They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve,
that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends
from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah;
if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever
ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them

Who exactly was the Qur'an asking Muslims to kill WHEREEVER they are found?

gists:

You said it your self the way the Quran vies christians and Jew in your post

Please carefully look again in your statement. You may only be so desperate to wish away the facts that you begin to sound a bit mixed up. Is the Qur'an actually vying Christians and Jews - where did I say so in my posts? Or were you so desperate to hope that you will find it there?

gists:

He probably left because of the heap of hate yoou gys are spilling all over.

Calm down. Please go to the appropriate thread and see things for yourself. My dear shawn123 was typically trying to ridicule the Bible - and I only helped him clear his false assertions. That was all. I hoped indeed that he would come back and let us discuss what he had asserted - and again I say: I am still waiting.

If he was only interested in a genuine discussion, even when he does not agree with Christians, he could easily tender his persuasions without deliberately seeking to castigate Christians and the Bible. How does it happen that when Muslims start their own hate, they are barely able to stand up and endure the same things they began?

gists:

I left too you know.

I'm sorry - I didn't know that; and you may forgive my relative "recent" entry to the Forum (perhaps after you had been long on it). I could not have known.

gists:

And their's nothing to show you. The onus is on you to provide prove tho butress your accusations.

There is plenty you could show IF and only IF you had anything to show. Because you simply had nothing, I could not expect anything from you.

Where I needed to demonstarte anything in my assertions, I have tried to do so. Many Muslims who are not happy to read the facts have alleged that I was lying. I have asked them several times to please help point out where and why they think so. . . I am still waiting UP UNTIL TODAY!! They have never been able to demonstrate their accusations against me. Is something really wrong with Muslims?

gists:

Cos they were out-numbered and out-equipped. I beleive Bro Olabowale has provided sufficient explanations to that.

Lol. , perfect excuse. Olabowale had no clues, and if that is what makes you happy, too bad that you only satisfy yourself with sad excuses.

On the contrary, Jesus would not encourage them to fight with swords - He was not staging a JIHAD!! Go back and read clearly that He was not relying on mere men to fight for Him IF He ever needed anyone to defend Him in warfare! See it for yourself:

Matthew 26:52-53 -- Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword. Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

Did you miss the fact He was not asking or staging a JIHAD? Read the context again, gists. I am not trying to quarrel with you - just simply asking you not to read your pretexts into the verses you have snatched out of their contexts.

gists:

And you think mathew and luke are part of the OT?

Calm down. Where did I ever think so? Are you so desperate, gists?

gists:

I stand to be corrected I tot the NT is comprises of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1Corinthians, 2Corinthians, Galatians bla, bla, bla. Or have they been REVISED to the OT now?

Where did I mix up the OT and NT? That is all I ask. Please quote me precisely, thank you.

gists:

My sister please get this right now, Jesus could not have been addressing the christians because he never saw them!!

Please save the excuses. I clearly mentioned that He was addressing the JEWS. The point you have been pushing was that the EXODUS texts you quoted was supposed to have been a CHRISTIAN law - and that was the reference I wanted you to clarify. Don't try to save face immediately by circling round it to bring another arguement about whether Christians existed at that time or not. If you so wish, please open a thread and let us discuss that matter subsequently. Do you wish to?

gists:

Christianity/christians only came into existence about 40yrs after Jesus left. Its somewhere in the acts. The point is if you guys are sincere with yourself and Jesus as you claim to follow his teaching, you would do as he says and not try to manipulate and embelish a direct sentence.

Well, for one, we as Christians actually follow what He taught. He did not ask anyone to go kill Muslims - and if you find a verse for that in the Bible, let us know. Second, he clearly said He was the Son of God - should we be hypocrits to deny that one as well as Muslims have done while you sit there asking us to be sincere?

gists:

You only re-enact something that is dead/dormant. The law was always their, it just needs to be fulfilled. Hence, he came to fulfill them!! the words of Jesus are correct yet again

The word "re-enact" points to laws that are in existence but have not been IMPLEMENTED! Go check it out. Jesus did not come to RE-ENACT the Mosais Law, although He used it effectively to show the Jews their own departure from the WORD of God.

If Jesus came to re-enact the Mosaic Law, then certainly He would have asked Christians to do things like:

~ stone anyone who worked on the Sabbath day!

~ stone a woman caught in adultery!

Please go study the NT, see how it applies the OT, and then let's have a genuine discourse. I don't see how you have demonstrated the meaning of Jesus coming to fulfill the LAW and PROPHETS other than you snatching those words out of context.

If you want to follow a systematic and genuine discussion on the subject, I would most gladly oblige you, gists.

Have a pleasant day.

pilgrim.1:

@gists,
Is it not Muslims themselves who have argued that there were MUSLIMS before Muhammad? Is it not Muslim scholars that have been propagating the same idea that the FIRST Muslim was ADAM (some say Abraham).

Pls read my post and understand expecially the one in red fonts

gists:

The first two verses could not have existed because their were no muslms then (at least by the name) and I don't know about the third verse you're talikng about in the Quran. You said it your self the way the Quran vies christians and Jew in your post

pilgrim.1:

A nice way of suddenly making out that you no longer remember the teaching of the Qur'an. Let's juggle your memory with just one of such numerous verses:

Qur'an 4 v 89

   They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve,
   that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends
   from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah;
   if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever
   ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them

Who exactly was the Qur'an asking Muslims to kill WHEREEVER they are found?

Yet a gain you have quoted just one verse of the Quran as usual why not take the pain and a little time to read from verse 87 to 90 you'll discover that Allah was talking about those who came to fight the muslims (whoever they are/were, be it christian, jews, idol worshipers etc) the buttom line is they came with the intent to wipe the muslims out and the muslims have the right to defend themselves.

Q4:90 Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah HATH OPENED NO WAY FOR YOU (to war against them).

My sis, pls take note of the last part of that verse which says Allah HATH OPENED NO WAY FOR YOU (to war against them). Meaning that their is chance for peace if only there are no aggressors. There are countless evidences in history where christians and Jews peacefully coexisted both under the leadership ofprophet Mohammed (SAW) and later under various Islamic leaders. On the contrary, there are many verses in the bible where God supposedly commanded Moses to UTTERLY DESTROY, SPEAR THEM NOT etc even children and women. I know you have a mindset about Islam which is a pretty urgly one. And I pressume (from past experience with xtians on nairaland) that you will retain that mindset no matter how hard we try.

pilgrim.1:

Please carefully look again in your statement. You may only be so desperate to wish away the facts that you begin to sound a bit mixed up. Is the Qur'an actually vying Christians and Jews - where did I say so in my posts? Or were you so desperate to hope that you will find it there?

what I had in my post is "You said it your self the way the Quran vies christians and Jew in your post" Its supposed to be VIEWS for that, I appologise for not reading through b4 posting hence the typos.

pilgrim.1:

I'm sorry - I didn't know that; and you may forgive my relative "recent" entry to the Forum (perhaps after you had been long on it). I could not have known.

Your relative recent entry is no fault of yours. A quick check at the total number of post I have proves that I'm a new poster too. Just that it can be annoying to see a topic like "Bounties Of Jannat" and all you see upon clicking is xtian hate all over. And as if those that are casting the stones are saints.

@gists,

gists:

Please read my post and understand expecially the one in red fonts

In what significant way have you tried to establish any difference from the same point I pointed out earlier? Whether in name or not, Muslims scholars have always tried to noise it in our ears that there were Muslims BEFORE the emergence of the Jewish nation - or they would not have been speaking of another Abraham, would they?

gists:

Yet a gain you have quoted just one verse of the Quran as usual why not take the pain and a little time to read from verse 87 to 90 you'll discover that Allah was talking about those who came to fight the muslims (whoever they are/were, be it christian, jews, idol worshipers etc) the buttom line is they came with the intent to wipe the muslims out and the muslims have the right to defend themselves.

When I was a Muslim, that was what we were misled into believeing. Please show us WHERE in history it ever was that CHRISTIANS and JEWS ever came to fight Muhammad and his comnpanions? Was it not rather the other wya round - Muhammad wnet directly to them and belligerently sought to sack them from their own land - UNPROVOKED!!

gists:

Q4:90 Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah HATH OPENED NO WAY FOR YOU (to war against them).

Tie this to your claim just addressed above - where did Christians and Jews come to wage war with Muhammad BEFORE he attacked them? Please simply be honest - that's all I ask.

gists:

My sis, please take note of the last part of that verse which says Allah HATH OPENED NO WAY FOR YOU (to war against them). Meaning that their is chance for peace if only there are no aggressors. There are countless evidences in history where christians and Jews peacefully coexisted both under the leadership ofprophet Muhammad (SAW) and later under various Islamic leaders. On the contrary, there are many verses in the bible where God supposedly commanded Moses to UTTERLY DESTROY, SPEAR THEM NOT etc even children and women.

All the same, up until this very day, Muslims have been emigrating to non-Muslim nations - and they have been welcomed, benefitted, and no one has ever thought of maltreating them.

Please show me from HISTORY that Muhammad only sought to attack Jews and Christians after he was attacked by them. That's all I ask.

gists:

I know you have a mindset about Islam which is a pretty urgly one. And I pressume (from past experience with xtians on nairaland) that you will retain that mindset no matter how hard we try.

I'm sorry that you are wrong. I do not ave a mindset plastered with hate against anybody - Muslim, Christian, atheist, free-thinker, Hindu, Mormon, Bhuddist, Grail Messengers, or anyone at all.

What actually interests me is simple acknowledgements of facts. State them simply - and it matters not whoever you are, and I would simply acknowledge them. That's all I ask. It has nothing to do with mindset or no.

gists:

what I had in my post is "You said it your self the way the Quran vies christians and Jew in your post" Its supposed to be VIEWS for that, I appologise for not reading through before posting hence the typos.

I am sorry and apologise. I also make many typos when typing in haste. I apologise again.

gists:

Your relative recent entry is no fault of yours. A quick check at the total number of post I have proves that I'm a new poster too. Just that it can be annoying to see a topic like "Bounties Of Jannat" and all you see upon clicking is xtian hate all over. And as if those that are casting the stones are saints.

Okay, I understand your persuasions - and I agree with you that such things could really be annoying (even though I am no longer a Muslim).

On the other hand, please go through the motherboard, and you will have to ask yourself why the same poster (oga belloti) opened another thread to "prove" WHY CHRISTIANITY IS WRONG!! Lol. . . I don't know how many people have actually been put off by that topic as well.

Enjoy.

@pilgrim1

why Grail messengers?do you know anything about them or the book?

pilgrim.1:

@gists,
In what significant way have you tried to establish any difference from the same point I pointed out earlier? Whether in name or not, Muslims scholars have always tried to noise it in our ears that there were Muslims BEFORE the emergence of the Jewish nation - or they would not have been speaking of another Abraham, would they?

The point is there were muslims before. That they were not officially called muslims (that's what I meant by "not by name" doesn't mean that there were none. And since they were not called so "officially" you can't expect to find the word muslim or islam in the Torah or bible. In the same manner you wont find the word christian nor christianity in the Torah since there were no christian at the time the Torah was reavelled. I'm not a very good teacher, but I hope you get the point.

pilgrim.1:

When I was a Muslim, that was what we were misled into believeing. Please show us WHERE in history it ever was that CHRISTIANS and JEWS ever came to fight Muhammad and his comnpanions? Was it not rather the other wya round - Muhammad wnet directly to them and belligerently sought to sack them from their own land - UNPROVOKED!!

Many, lots of it. be sincere enough to take it as a challenge and research it. But even in the last verse I quoted (Q4:90), you'll find out that the muslims were attacked first. ,,,,,or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people Meaning that there were those who actually approached them with the exact opposite kind of hearts i.e intent

pilgrim.1:

All the same, up until this very day, Muslims have been emigrating to non-Muslim nations - and they have been welcomed, benefitted, and no one has ever thought of maltreating them.
Please show me from HISTORY that Muhammad only sought to attack Jews and Christians after he was attacked by them. That's all I ask.

Are you sure, please check well o before u make general statements. Check please

pilgrim.1:

Okay, I understand your persuasions - and I agree with you that such things could really be annoying (even though I am no longer a Muslim).

On the other hand, please go through the motherboard, and you will have to ask yourself why the same poster (oga belloti) opened another thread to "prove" WHY CHRISTIANITY IS WRONG!!  Lol. . . I don't know how many people have actually been put off by that topic as well.

I am sure you'll agree with me that their is freedom of speech (and posting), Belloti and everyone is free to post any topic in the forum as long as there are people who want to discuss such topic without being annoyingly distracted. However, NOBODY should dillute an existing thread with totally irrelevant posts -its rude in my opinion. Their is a thread titled "Islam the religion of doom" and I'm sure there are people who are interested in discussing it. So let them discuss it without being distracted and let them satisfy themselves_{(I know it will not be productive because everybody has a mindset/opinion)}. I hope you get my point

olabowale:

@Hannydarl, holythug and +Osisi: Hannydarl, know that the God of the Old testament, was the God of the New testament and still the God of the lastest testament, the Qur'an. He ordained fights for the people of the Old testament. He did not ordained it to the people of the New testament and He ordained it for the people of the lastest testament! (When I said people here, I simply mean the prophet/messanger and his companions, at that time, all the way through the generation, before the deviations/corruptions began to sip in through into the revelations; eg as the OT before NT and NT before LT (Qur'an)).

However, you do realised that Jesus commanded his companions/followers to sell their 'cloaks,' and purchase instead 'sword,' instead with the proceed. Sword was the Bunker buster bomb of that time. So the meekness of Jesus is what you want us to believe, we believe it already. But the truth is known. All one has to do is to read the passages relating to it in your NT! However, we see that the Christians, when in power, from the inception of that religion, are always hell bent to force people to change, as if they have a mandate to do so. All you have to do to prove me wrong is to see the videos on Google about "Christian Missionary atrocities," all over the world, including their on going efforts in Afghanistan and Iraq, to name a few of Muslim societies they have invaded with their 'fake religion of truth,' where you have no choice to say no, when they have upperhands!

Shall we start with the peaceful Christian eras in history, since its 2000 plus years of beginning? During Jesus time, even though he was not a Christian, but since you borrowed his name for your religion, hence the analytical presentation: He commanded his companions/immediate followers to buy swords/ammos with the sales of their clothing/properties. Maybe for all out war/battle against the unbelievers of his mission. We already know about Moses and the OT companions. Both conditions were okay with me, because they must have been under the direct commandments of God!

But we see Christians engaged in Inquisitions against the Islamic Spain that had brought Europe out of the coma of civilization and enlightenment that she had fell in! We see Crusades mounted many times against Islamic Palestine. We see the hordes of invading colonizers, who grabbed, looted, stolen, carted away, oppressed and indeed raped our people. Today, the Fante subgroup of Akan tribe of Ghana are mockingly/jokingly called White blood of Ghana!

My dear sister, is there a peaceful Christian society, available today that you can point to me or ever there was one, without a conquering and Spreading the 'Word,' mission idea? How will the Algerian Muslims feel about the Christian France, which was determined to destroy as much as they could, when the former embark on her struggle for freedom? Tell me about the feeling of the Tunings under the Italians, or the Egyptians under the French and then the English? What about African Zaire, Congo under the French Belgian murderers? Are these oppressors not Christians and did not read the Bible while doing the oppressions? Look at the hooties and tootsies of the 1990s. The French missionaries behaved as if the black 'servant/house keepers,' who had just dragged out and loaded their belongings on the rescuing transportation machines, were like filth to them! Yet they wore their religious garbs, showing no mercy at all. I am not saying that the Muslims fair better, but do not recluse the Christians from the people who are doing evil.
Holythug, true to your name. You will not find defectiveness in what Allah creates for people of Jannah. Your one eyed person is in Hellfire. You will find her there. Surprise, surprise, you will not be able to touch her. You will going through the punishment of hell and anything to relieve you is forbidden anyhow. It all torture, all the time. If you and your wife are people of jannah, and you are the only man she knew, then there is no reason for your relationship not to continue. Remember, she is not your property here and she is never going to be your property in Paradise either. Muslim women/wives have feminist freedom that the Western women are yet to attain, even if the burn their complete set of under garments, going beyond burning the bras. Thats easy and its nothing anyhow. The Muslim women must always have their family name even while married. they can add or not add the husband's name. There are also women who will go to jannah, while their husband will end up in hell. Who will be their means of enjoyment as men have theirs in the Houris women. They will have their choice from men of Paradise.
Allah is a just God. And only judges. He will judge men and women alike, in the common responsibilities and alike in the separate responsibilities according to gender. So a wife who is a good Muslim may be in higher level of Paradise than her husband. Her husband may not even be in Paradise. The woman who believes and marry a believing husband does not have to fear her husband, because her fate is with Allah the Supreme Creator!If she does her duty as a creation of Allah, as a wife of her husband and a mother to her children and a daughter to her parents and a relation to her relatives and a good neighbor to her neighbors, then she should not be in any distress. The husband has his responsibilities, also just as the wife's listed above and then some. If he is a bad husband, disobeying Allah, she does not have to follow him and indeed she can institute a divorce proceedings on the ground of any of whatever she sees to be the reasons for wanting out of the marriage.
+Osisi. Amebo, mebo, mebo, mebo. Na you sabi! You already missed the boat to experience how good a Muslim man is anyway! Lol! Unless Mr. Nwando, and you wholesale change from Kufr to people of Iman haqquh. A believing woman who disobey her husband in her husband's disbelieving will go to Paradise, while the husband will go to Hellfire. Take the case of Asia (Ashiawu, in Yoruba, Hausa, and other west african pronunciations). She was married to the tyrant Pharaoh of Prophet Moses! She was a believer and advocated that her husband stopped and changed his evil way. The husband impailed her on a pike of Palm tree to die. She is from the people of Jannah and her husband, Pharaoh (Lanatullahi alal Kafiriin) is from the people of Hellfire. The fate of everyone as to Paradise or Hellfire is first and foremost, Believing in Oneness of the Creator, while disbelieving every other things else. This is what we call Hanif. The hanifs are hanifans, Muslims, Mumins. A good example was Prophet Ibrahiim (AS)! Second is to follow the tenets of worship as laid out in the revelation given to and the Sunnah of the prophet which under his mission time you live. The mission time of Jesus ended as the mission time of Muhammad began. hence all the Jews, Christians of today are Kafiruun, just as we see the Hindu, Buhhdist Mushrikuun. They are the same thing; people of hellfire!

i wasnt playin or jokin i read it somewhere, and as a matter of fact am a muslim, i b liv in d 5 pillars of islam so you're NOBODY to tell me ow my hereafter will look like my work and bliv and d mercy of Allah will see me through your curses, about d one eyed maidens d beauty was derscribed but i dnt knw why they were named "one eyed maiden" but as Allah is d perfect judge, may he judge me according to my knowledge of this & 10q for your advice
Chief Justice olabowale

@amsky,

amsky:

@pilgrim1

why Grail messengers?do you know anything about them or the book?

I do.

@gists,

I should actually forebear; but a few things bring me back to respond to your summations.

gists:

The point is there were muslims before. That they were not officially called muslims (that's what I meant by "not by name" doesn't mean that there were none. And since they were not called so "officially" you can't expect to find the word muslim or islam in the Torah or bible. In the same manner you wont find the word christian nor christianity in the Torah since there were no christian at the time the Torah was reavelled. I'm not a very good teacher, but I hope you get the point.

I get your point.

However, whatever they were called (officially or unofficially), the point I made still stands: The Torah did not command the Jews to seek out Muslims (official or unofficial) and kill them whereever they are found. On the other hand, the Qur'an explicitly states by commandment that Muslims should kill Jews and Christians whereever they are found.

gists:

Many, lots of it. be sincere enough to take it as a challenge and research it. But even in the last verse I quoted (Q4:90), you'll find out that the muslims were attacked first. ,,,,,or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people Meaning that there were those who actually approached them with the exact opposite kind of hearts i.e intent

Do you care to share some of these "LOTS" of historical antecedents with us, please?

I do have my facts before I requested you to offer something to substantiate your point. I don't seem to be able to find anything in HISTORY where Jews and Christians actually FIRST attacked Muhammad before he launched his attacks on them.

gists:

Are you sure, please check well o before u make general statements. Check please

Okay, I logged out to re-check: and the facts remain the same. Do you have anything alternatively to offer?

gists:

I am sure you'll agree with me that their is freedom of speech (and posting), Belloti and everyone is free to post any topic in the forum as long as there are people who want to discuss such topic without being annoyingly distracted. However, NOBODY should dillute an existing thread with totally irrelevant posts -its rude in my opinion.

But wait. For the sake of fairness, why is belloti free to post wat others consider offensive; but Muslims can't endure the same thing served them?

gists:

Their is a thread titled "Islam the religion of doom" and I'm sure there are people who are interested in discussing it.

That thread is a recent one - and I'm sure that many Muslims were also offended even by its topic.

gists:

So let them discuss it without being distracted and let them satisfy themselves_{(I know it will not be productive because everybody has a mindset/opinion)}. I hope you get my point

I do get your point.

Shalom.

good 1 by pilgrim

@Holythug:

wasnt playin or jokin i read it somewhere, and as a matter of fact am a muslim, i b liv in d 5 pillars of islam so you're NOBODY to tell me ow my hereafter will look like my work and bliv and d mercy of Allah will see me through your curses, about d one eyed maidens d beauty was derscribed but i dnt knw why they were named "one eyed maiden" but as Allah is d perfect judge, may he judge me according to my knowledge of this & 10q for your advice
Chief Justice olabowale

Thank you. But am not justice and definately not a Chief Justice. However we see that there is no place in the Qur'an that you will find 'one eyed' maiden or person, in Paradise as a reward for being in Paradise. I did not curse you and i have no ability to curse. Maybe, you behaved like a non Muslim, as per your entry then and in your entry immediately above this one. You might have read 'wide eyed,' maiden but definitely not one eyed! Allah describe things of the hereafter, using what is best in this world as example of the good of it. Even though they are not exactly the same. Between a one eyed woman and wide eyed women, all sane men will chose the wide eyed. And all sane women will like to be like her.

Look my brother, Islam is more than you and me. Allah's Messenger (as), said that Muslim ia brother to another Muslim. He further stated in a nother place that Muslims are one body. When one part is sick or hurting the whole body hurts. He further said that Muslim honor, blood and belongings are secred in the hands of other Muslim(s). During the Emirship of Abu Bakr, there were a group of Muslims who refused to pay Zakat. They said that they were Muslims and that since Muhammad had passed away, they do not have to pay the Abu Bakr.

What did Abu Bakr do; he mounted a campaign against them. He said that their rejecting a part of the tenets of Islam had removed them from the fold of islam. He fought them until they paid the Zakat to him. Yet Abu Bakr (ra), was a mild mannered person. Finally, Allah cursed those among the Muslims who were deemed lukewarm in their faith (Munafikuun). Read the beginning part of Surah Baqarah. My brother, may Allah forgive us both. May he not make us be people of littiest of faith, whereby we are counted among disbelievibg people. Amin.

My brother, let us always find ourselves on the side of the religion of Allah. Regardless of what the conditions of the Muslims are, we must never forget that it is the religion of truth. Muhammad (as) said that there will be a time that those people who worship in truth will be scared. Even then, the few will be in the majority, because Allah will be on their side. Muhammad also said that when it becomes clear that there are so much evil doers, then when you fear that you may be part of them, then go and restrain yourself, even if you have to hold to a tree trunk or bite it so hard that you are not easily swayed to join evil people. My brother, again forgive me. Do not charge it to my heart, but charge it to my head. May Allah guide us all aright!

bless you pilgrim.
I'll like to start a thread on what Muslim kids are taught.
I need your inputs there
I want to get an insight to the teachings that breed terrorists and turn Gombe children to kill an innocent teacher.

@+osisi,

+osisi:

bless you pilgrim.

Bless you plenty, my sister.

(And you, too. . . holythug)

+osisi:

I'll like to start a thread on what Muslim kids are taught.
I need your inputs there

Well, I do hope that I would not be seen as being deliberately offensive to anyone.

+osisi:

I want to get an insight to the teachings that breed terrorists and turn Gombe children to kill an innocent teacher.

Hmm. . . that's quite a task. I'll try and shed offer some insight as well.

Cheers.

pilgrim.1:

@gists,
I should actually forebear; but a few things bring me back to respond to your summations.
I get your point.
However, whatever they were called (officially or unofficially), the point I made still stands: The Torah did not command the Jews to seek out Muslims (official or unofficial) and kill them whereever they are found[color=#990000][/color]. On the other hand, the Qur'an explicitly states by commandment that Muslims should kill Jews and Christians whereever they are found.

I don't want to overflog this cos its leading nowhere. But the hard undisputable fact is that both the Torah and the bible gave clear-cut commands to kill humans. Kill, slay, spear them not, smite, utterly destroy are some of the words used. Your argument that muslims are not mentioned hold no water at all. Kill is kill be it specifically muslims or not. I'm sure you are aware that those orders in your book also said in clear terms that women and children get no exemptions!! You're far more guilty of the crime you're accusing us of.

pilgrim.1:

Do you care to share some of these "LOTS" of historical antecedents with us, please?

I do have my facts before I requested you to offer something to substantiate your point. I don't seem to be able to find anything in HISTORY where Jews and Christians actually FIRST attacked Muhammad before he launched his attacks on them.

I've done that here on nairaland b4 and some of ur xtian friends can testify to it. Bliv me its no use trying to get u guys come to terms with the attrocities your early leaders committed (just as you find it difficult to accept the kill order in your books).

pilgrim.1:

But wait. For the sake of fairness, why is belloti free to post what others consider offensive; but Muslims can't endure the same thing served them?

Pls try and understand my point b4 replying so we both won't end up wasting time. For the sake of fainess, Belloti and everyone else (like I said in my last post) is free to start any thread but let them not make irrelevant off topic posts to on-going discussions thus making a nuisance of themselves. I think this is logical and straight forward enough.

@pilgrim1
pls what do you know about the Grail message book.kindly enlighten me.are you one of them?

amsky:

@pilgrim1
please what do you know about the Grail message book.kindly enlighten me.are you one of them?

I've held discussions with Grail friends in the relevant threads (from here: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-3321.0.html#msg1349453). Maybe there's something specific you'd like for me to address - I'd be gald to in that thread so we don't detract the topic in this one.

Cheers.

@gists,

gists:

I don't want to overflog this because its leading nowhere. But the hard undisputable fact is that both the Torah and the bible gave clear-cut commands to kill humans.

For what reasons - that they are not Muslims?

Indeed we should not belabour the issue. But what I often see is the frantic attitude of Muslims running to the OT and using that as an excuse for why Muslims MUST kill. I haven't seen any Muslim coherently discuss with us on why the Qur'an commands them to kill Jews and Christians specifically - apart from others that they are commanded to kill.

gists:

Kill, slay, spear them not, smite, utterly destroy are some of the words used.

Like this one wielded by MUSLIMS:

gists:

Your argument that muslims are not mentioned hold no water at all.

Put the other way, it does make sense to you rather that the Qur'an mentions clearly that Muslims are to kill specifically Jews and Christians? And why?

gists:

Kill is kill be it specifically muslims or not.

And we should already assume that it is alright to kill Muslims just as they also seek to kill Jews and Christians by Allah's command?

gists:

I'm sure you are aware that those orders in your book also said in clear terms that women and children get no exemptions!!

Where have Muslims spared women and children in their killing adventures?

gists:

You're far more guilty of the crime you're accusing us of.

Not so. Within a month alone, Muslims have murdered and maimed more numbers than Christian or Jewish efforts to free these same Muslims from their own plights.

gists:

I've done that here on nairaland before and some of your xtian friends can testify to it. Bliv me its no use trying to get u guys come to terms with the attrocities your early leaders committed (just as you find it difficult to accept the kill order in your books).

If what you term atrocities has been your bane, then indeed the Qur'an should be ignored once for all. The bitter truth is that Islam thrives on murder. QED. If it is difficult to accept that fact, please drop the Qur'an today. You cannot stand on a neutral fence claiming that we should look at the Torah as an atrocious book while you close your eyes to an even worse case with the Qur'an.

gists:

Please try and understand my point before replying so we both won't end up wasting time. For the sake of fainess, Belloti and everyone else (like I said in my last post) is free to start any thread but let them not make irrelevant off topic posts to on-going discussions thus making a nuisance of themselves. I think this is logical and straight forward enough.

Please look closely again. Would you be willing to welcome the same "fairness" if a non-Muslims had rather started a thread and titled it for Islam the way belloti did about Christianity?

Like this one wielded by MUSLIMS:

pilgrim, most of the verse which states that kill are during war times that muslims were facing persecution.

You can read the following and Enjoy.

"He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet." (Bukhari, Muslim)

"Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys God." (Bukhari)

"He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his adversary, and I shall be his adversary on the Day of a Judgement." (Bukhari)

"Beware on the Day of Judgement; I shall mysefl be complainant against him who wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him." (Al-Mawardi)

mdsocks:

pilgrim, most of the verse which states that kill are during war times that muslims were facing persecution.

You can read the following and Enjoy.

"He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet." (Bukhari, Muslim)

"Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys God." (Bukhari)

"He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his adversary, and I shall be his adversary on the Day of a Judgement." (Bukhari)

"Beware on the Day of Judgement; I shall mysefl be complainant against him who wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him." (Al-Mawardi)

God bless you for those quotes, but I think their hearts are made up no matter what we say.

@pilgrim.1
maybe you should google christian missionaries attrocities.

In addition to mdsocks quotes
RasuluLLAH (S.A.W) says " respect & cherish the visitors even if they were kafirs(Non-believers/muslims e.t.c.)

@gists,

gists:

God bless you for those quotes, but I think their hearts are made up no matter what we say.

@pilgrim.1
maybe you should google christian missionaries attrocities.

I'm quite aware of their atrocities - and what's more, I am not afriad to discuss them, and have done so several times on the Forum.

The one thing that baffles me is Muslim hypocrisy that pretends these issues are non-existent in the Muslim world. Have you taken the time to Google up the atrocities of Muslim clerics?

I was actually waiting for some rascal Muslim propagandists to dare their hypocrisies one step further about Gays in the naglican Church. I simply requested thm to look inward into their Muslim world - and if they pretended they can't find anything, I would help them by posting a dozen articles (complete with PHOTOS, STATISTICS, MAPS, and incontrovertible other evidence) of MUSLIM clerics who were caught red-handed in their shame! Nobody ever hears of such - because we all know the threats to the lives of the journalists who investigated them. If you want them, please be frank and forthright to ask for them - and after you have seen for yourself the shame, come back and let's talk.

Cherio.

belloti ,may the ALMIGHTY ALLAH guide you,me & all the muslims to the right path & grant us all AL-JANAAT FIRDAUS . . . Ameen
Its no use flogging a dead horse 'cos ALLAH (S.W.T) states in the GLORIOUS QURAN "In their hearts is a disease, . .and GOD multiplied the disease . . .to them is a painful torment because of what(our verses,signs,revelations. .etc) they used to deny"
. .

@mdsocks,

mdsocks:

pilgrim, most of the verse which states that kill are during war times that muslims were facing persecution.

My simple request was that gists should show us any historical antecedents of WHERE Jews and Christians FIRST attacked Muhammad before he launched such operatives against them.

Don't just sit down and wave that claim in our face. Simply show us that Muhammad was first attacked BEFORE he attacked them. Is that too hard a request to make?

mdsocks:

You can read the following and Enjoy.

"He who believes in God and the Last Day should honour his guest, should not harm his neighbour, should speak good or keep quiet." (Bukhari, Muslim)

Lol. . . could you please help us get the particular reference next time? Thank you.

On the sharp side of things, is it not true that Muslims (and Muhammad himself) never sought to follow that very tenet? Is it not in the same Bukhari and Muslim that Muhammad did more than harm his neighbours far and near?

mdsocks:

"Whoever hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state hurts me, and he who hurts me annoys God." (Bukhari)

You're being selective and making it sound like Muhammad didn't so much as even hurt a fly. In the same Sahih Bukhari (Book #52, Hadith #220), Muhammad jubilated with these words: "I have been made victorious with terror".

mdsocks:

"He who hurts a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state, I am his adversary, and I shall be his adversary on the Day of a Judgement." (Bukhari)

Muhammad did not wait for judgement day before he demonstrated that he was the arch adversary of Jews and Christians. That was why I asked again and again what did the Jews and Christians do Muhammad to have merited his hate towards them till his last breath?

mdsocks:

"Beware on the Day of Judgement; I shall mysefl be complainant against him who wrongs a Non-Muslim citizen of a Muslim state or lays on him a responsibility greater than he can bear or deprives him of anything that belongs to him." (Al-Mawardi)

Lol. . . Muhammad was known to have deprived people of what rightfully belonged to them naw. . . U don forget again?

@dragnet,

dragnet:

In addition to mdsocks quotes
RasuluLLAH (S.A.W) says " respect & cherish the visitors even if they were kafirs(Non-believers/muslims e.t.c.)

How did Belloti respect others (Christians - the same people that Muslims refer to as kafirs) - by opening a thread to deliberately celebrate the Muslim hypocrisy for which you are now praising him?

WHY is it so hard for you Muslims to be consistent for once? First, you are averse to anyone saying unpleasant things about Islam. But you are happy to bless belloti for the very same crime for which you cannot endure from others, abi?

dragnet:

belloti ,may the ALMIGHTY ALLAH guide you,me & all the muslims to the right path & grant us all AL-JANAAT FIRDAUS . . . Ameen
Its no use flogging a dead horse 'because ALLAH (S.W.T) states in the GLORIOUS QURAN "In their hearts is a disease, . .and GOD multiplied the disease . . .to them is a painful torment because of what(our verses,signs,revelations. .etc) they used to deny"
. .

Please stop flogging a dead wasp in your camp. The disease is not in those you allege or accuse from your Qur'an. Turn to Sura 5 v 81 - even the Qur'an salutes the fact that Christians are men devoted to learning and they are not arrogant. Whoever fabricated that fallacy that there is a disease in the hearts of Christians or non-Muslims is the same man who accused the Arabs of being the "worst in unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance" (Qur'an 9 v 97). Today you want us to buy into that same "hypocrisy and ignorance" - and where we don't bow down to such tales, you assume the Qur'an is worth a double look because it claims that others have a disease in their hearts.

Please rest your shakara. If nobody understands the Qur'an after it is being translated from Arabic into another language, there's really no reason why you want to be mischievous quoting it in English.

Pilgrims1,. . . . . .belloti launched no "personal/religious" attack. . . . . . Al-JANAAT (PARADISE) is for the believers . . . . . Muslims likewise Christians. . .except for those who count themselves out
RasuluLLAH(S.A.W.) says. . ."Any one among the jews & christians that believes in me & with what I've been sent shall receive a double reward(1st reward is for believing in ISA(A.S.). . .2nd reward is for beliving in RasuluLLA(S.A.W.). . . . )and would be of the people of the PARADISE"

My simple request was that gists should show us any historical antecedents of WHERE Jews and Christians FIRST attacked Muhammad before he launched such operatives against them.

It was not the jews or vhristains the verse was referring to, HAve you forgottent the Battle of Badr?

What made Prophet Muhammad make an hijrah to Medinah ?

I am using a question to answer a question

Check the link.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Badr

http://www.ezsoftech.com/islamic/badr.asp

I have been made victorious with terror".

Yeah, he has been made victorious over his enemies with terror.

terror--an overwhelming feeling of fear and anxiety.

You can recall from the badr battle that muslims had a very small army then, but when he won over the idolaters they were gripped by fear.

The fear is not that of Muhammad but That unseen hand who helped them win a battle over about 3000 strong men with just a small army of about 300.

How did Belloti respect others[b] (Christians - the same people that Muslims refer to as kafirs) [/b]- by opening a thread to deliberately celebrate the Muslim hypocrisy for which you are now praising him?

Called someone kafirs?

Nobody has theright to call another person kafir,
pilgrim is that your innovationor what?

"worst in unbelief and hypocrisy, and most fitted to be in ignorance" (Qur'an 9 v 97).

That was during Jahiliya period, (Period of Ignorance) .

Most of them are now muslims and great men have been produced from the arabs.

They are one of the greatest mathematicians and scientists.

Next time Pilgrim read further and just don't quote verses with reading it fully.

009.099 But some of the desert Arabs believe in God and the Last Day, and look on their payments as pious gifts bringing them nearer to God and obtaining the prayers of the Apostle. Aye, indeed they bring them nearer (to Him): soon will God admit them to His Mercy: for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

@dragnet,

dragnet:

Pilgrims1,. . . . . .belloti launched no "personal/religious" attack. . . . . . Al-JANAAT (PARADISE) is for the believers . . . . . Muslims likewise Christians. . .except for those who count themselves out

If belloti's thread is considered not as an attack in any way, please rest your Muslim complainats about threads opened to address Muslim interests in the same negative connotations. QED.

There are lots of things I can take from people - hypocrisy is not one of them.

dragnet:

RasuluLLAH(S.A.W.) says. . ."Any one among the jews & christians that believes in me & with what I've been sent shall receive a double reward(1st reward is for believing in ISA(A.S.). . .2nd reward is for beliving in RasuluLLA(S.A.W.). . . . )and would be of the people of the PARADISE"

That may well be suited to your persuasions. I have deep convictions for leaving Islam; especially because that quote was not the standard practice of Muhammad. If Muhammad actually believed that he had no problems with Christians, why was he cursing the same Christians (and Jews) unto his last breath? I am not one who can endure such double standards, sorry.