If it was just a matter of simply withholding or giving money I wouldn't be on this board posting concerning this subject. Adding to God's word is a very serious matter and using Malachi 3 to pronounce curses on the body of christ is most serious, witchcraft and curses are real and the problem here in the states is that many people believe if they don't tithe according to the pastors definition of giving money to some church building/system that there finances will be cursed, the fact that alot of people believe this gives these preachers power(albeit satanic power), and in the US it's nearly impossible to find a church that doesn't teach mandatory wage earner tithing although it varies with each individual pastor as to how it's preached, some are more pushy than others. This teaching has and is ruining peoples relationship with God, it has much deeper impact than simply some preachers defrauding people out of money, any preacher/pastor that uses Malachi 3 on you to push wage earner tithing is working witchcraft on you and when you give to such ministries you become cursed, you are supporting Satan and his programs.

It seems also that it is basically similar to the idea of indulgences as practiced in the later middle ages and eventually resulted in abuses that triggered the Protestant Reformation.

The whole concept of an indulgence is based on the medieval Catholic doctrine that sinners must not only repent of sins that they've committed, they must also confess these sins and pay some sort of retribution. It is against all that the protestant church fathers faught against.

Inspired by the need to raise money, indulgences reproduced the very logic of money. In place of the real thing (good works), indulgences substituted a completely valueless piece of paper. The only reason this worked is because everybody accepted this to be a valid substitution, just like everybody accepts money as a substitution for things that have value.

let's the topic die at this stage
you all are adviced to go to other relevant topic and post your opinions

thanks

Also the origins of the modern day tithe came about 585 A.D, when the real church was bought out around 325 A.D. by the state(constantine etc.)all of the sudden they had these beautiful, elaborate buildings that had to be paid for, guess what they came up with, enforced wage earner tithes, in fact for a few hundred years it was some kind of law that you HAD to ""PAY"" tithes. Most money collected in church offerings today(including tithes) goes to pay for buildings which leads us into a whole other subject as to why the church in the western world is virtually powerless as well as blind.

it's simple those who believe in paying tithe continue doing it and hold on to your faith,those who don't and think that they'd rather do otherwise well and good hold on to your faith also but let us all look frankly into this matter not as how we want it to be but as it really is

cheekee:

it's simple those who believe in paying tithe continue doing it and hold on to your faith,those who don't and think that they'd rather do otherwise well and good hold on to your faith also but let us all look frankly into this matter not as how we want it to be but as it really is

Well said!

why is my pastors favorite topic taking a back seat? please pay your tithes and offerings that my barn may be full and see if the windows of heaven will not be opened to you

That is just the same as the practice of indulgences that the protestant church fathers originally faught against. Money is the biggest curse.

Tithing is absolutely not a Christian concept!

And here's why (a bit long but worth the read).


Tithing under the New Covenant, really?

Let me start by unequivocally stating what I believe to be the Biblical position.

There are only 2 reasons to preach tithing
1. Incomplete understanding of the scriptures (or tradition!).
2. Or quite simply to fleece the flock of God.

Or to put it another way;
1. Not properly understanding God in this respect.
2. Not fully understanding what God has done for us in Christ Jesus.

The tithe is taught almost universally (in the Pentecostal tradition at least), and is very much accepted orthodoxy (and Pentecostalism, whether you accept it or not has become a denominational orthodoxy, just like all others). But what do the scriptures really say about the tithe?

The word tithe, tithes or tithing occurs 43 times in the Bible (NKJV), in 36 different verses. 35 times in the Old Testament and 8 times in the new. One fewer in the KJV but in all the same places. The word “tenth” is also used to refer to the tithe on eight occasions. Six times in the 36 verses above, and twice when God uttered the curse of Kingship on the Israelites for rejecting Him (quite interesting this, and so very relevant to the current model of church ~ 1 Samuel chapter .

The very first instance is in Genesis 14,
17 And the king of Sodom went out to meet him at the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King's Valley), after his return from the defeat of Chedorlaomer and the kings who were with him. 18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine; he was the priest of God Most High. 19 And he blessed him and said: "Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Possessor of heaven and earth; 20 And blessed be God Most High, Who has delivered your enemies into your hand." And he gave him a tithe of all. 21 Now the king of Sodom said to Abram, "Give me the persons, and take the goods for yourself." 22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, "I have raised my hand to the Lord, God Most High, the Possessor of heaven and earth, 23 that I will take nothing, from a thread to a sandal strap, and that I will not take anything that is yours, lest you should say, 'I have made Abram rich'-- 24 except only what the young men have eaten, and the portion of the men who went with me: Aner, Eshcol, and Mamre; let them take their portion."

Abram having returned from the original gulf war (Please note this was an act of self-defence. To recover loved one’s and possessions. Christians never initiate wars, full stop) gave a tithe of the SPOILS (Hebrews 7:4 confirms this)!!!! To Melchizedek, priest of God most high. It is worth noting here that the remaining 90% of the loot (less provisions) went to the King of Sodom! There is no further record of Abraham ever tithing his income or his assets. And God blessed Him richly.


Now on to Jacob in Genesis 28
20 Then Jacob made a vow, saying, "If God will be with me, and keep me in this way that I am going, and give me bread to eat and clothing to put on, 21 so that I come back to my father's house in peace, then the Lord shall be my God. 22 And this stone which I have set as a pillar shall be God's house, and of all that You give me I will surely give a tenth to You."

Verse 20 clearly shows that Jacob took the initiative; the Lord did not command it. It is also worth noting that there was at that time no law, no prescribed form of worship or priests (more about priesthood later) to pay the tithe too. The only way to satisfy that vow would be to minister to the poor. Your vows are between you and God. Also noteworthy is that history shows that tithing actually pre-dates the Israelite nation. In fact, it’s still practised in various forms in certain economies. In at least one Islamic sect, and by Organised Crime - only they call it protection money.

Next up Leviticus 27 (and this is where it starts to get interesting!).
30 And all the tithe of the land, whether of the seed of the land or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's. It is holy to the Lord. 31 If a man wants at all to redeem any of his tithes, he shall add one-fifth to it. 32 And concerning the tithe of the herd or the flock, of whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the Lord. 33 He shall not inquire whether it is good or bad, nor shall he exchange it; and if he exchanges it at all, then both it and the one exchanged for it shall be holy; it shall not be redeemed. 34 These are the commandments which the Lord commanded Moses for the children of Israel on Mount Sinai.

Tithe was only ever paid on produce and livestock ~ never MONETARY INCOME!!!

Why? Because it was for a threefold purpose;
1. To feed the Levite and Priests (the house of Aaron) who were not given an inheritance amongst the tribes of Israel (said inheritance being LAND)
2. Welfare, for the fatherless, widows and orphans and hospitality (for the stranger in the land)
3. Feasting. (Yes feasting, not that impoverished monthly ritual we call communion!)

Note also that it was the tenth one (verse 33), not the first one that was counted. So that would indicate that those with an increase of less than ten would not be required to tithe. That it was part of the law is clearly signified in verse 34 (more on that later).

By the time you get to Deuteronomy 12 the feasting element of tithing is clearly outlined. I’ll reproduce some parts here, but please read it in full.

5 But you shall seek the place where the Lord your God chooses, out of all your tribes, to put His name for His dwelling place; and there you shall go. 6 There you shall take your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the heave offerings of your hand, your vowed offerings, your freewill offerings, and the firstborn of your herds and flocks. 7 And there you shall eat before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice in all to which you have put your hand, you and your households, in which the Lord your God has blessed you………11 then there will be the place where the Lord your God chooses to make His name abide. There you shall bring all that I command you: your burnt offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the heave offerings of your hand, and all your choice offerings which you vow to the Lord. 12 And you shall rejoice before the Lord your God, you and your sons and your daughters, your male and female servants, and the Levite who is within your gates, since he has no portion nor inheritance with you.

On to Deuteronomy 14 and again its a corporeal (not corporate, as we are a body not an institution!) love feast! I’ll reproduce some parts here, but please be sure to read it in full.

22 "You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. 23 And you shall eat before the Lord your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24 But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the Lord your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the Lord your God has blessed you, 25 then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the Lord your God chooses. 26 And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household. 27 You shall not forsake the Levite who is within your gates, for he has no part nor inheritance with you. 28 "At the end of every third year you shall bring out the tithe of your produce of that year and store it up within your gates. 29 And the Levite, because he has no portion nor inheritance with you, and the stranger and the fatherless and the widow who are within your gates, may come and eat and be satisfied, that the Lord your God may bless you in all the work of your hand which you do.

Here we can see that if the celebration venue was to far away one could take money in place of produce/livestock with which to purchase food and drink (of their choice) at the venue. This should also serve to dispel the notion that the tithe was only on produce and livestock because it was a cashless society. There was just one stipulation, being to remember the Levite, the stranger and the poor. Please note the 3-yearly command in verse 28.

This is repeated in Deuteronomy 26.
12 "When you have finished laying aside all the tithe of your increase in the third year--the year of tithing--and have given it to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, so that they may eat within your gates and be filled, 13 then you shall say before the Lord your God: 'I have removed the holy tithe from my house, and also have given them to the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, according to all Your commandments which You have commanded me; I have not transgressed Your commandments, nor have I forgotten them.

All other Old Testament references to tithing are merely to mention that it was an ongoing obligation under the law and to note when the Jews did or did not uphold it. This includes the much-abused Malachi 3:8–10. Reading the whole of the book of Malachi, shows clearly that the people had turned from God. Where covenant breakers, and generally acting in an ungodly fashion. Chapter 3 verse 10 shows there was no food in His house (the Temple). This meant that the Levites had to look for other means to sustain themselves, leading to a neglect of their priestly ministry. Just as grievous in God’s sight would have been the lack of succour given to the poor. Simple. It was written to the Israelites (verse 9) who were under the law of Moses. It was not written to believers today who are quite clearly not under the law, but under grace (or are you?).

Now lets have a look at the New Testament, which has 8 occurrences.
Matthew 23:23 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.
Luke 11:42 But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

The above two verses are essentially the same from the synoptic gospels of Matthew & Luke. Being addressed here are the Pharisees and scribes, who at the time were under the Law. Once again the tithe is identified as very much a part of the law. Again note the reference to herbs (produce!).

The third time is in Luke 18.
Luke 18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other……….

Here a Pharisees lame attempt at self-righteousness is exposed as not good enough. Why?
Because it’s law, it’s merely outward religion, self-justification and is not the outward working of a true change of heart. Galatians 2:6 ~ knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

And finally
Hebrews 7 verses 5 – 9 contain five of the 8 new testament references to the tithe.
5 And indeed those who are of the sons of Levi, who receive the priesthood, have a commandment to receive tithes from the people according to the law, that is, from their brethren, though they have come from the loins of Abraham; 6 but he whose genealogy is not derived from them received tithes from Abraham and blessed him who had the promises. 7 Now beyond all contradiction the lesser is blessed by the better. 8 Here mortal men receive tithes, but there he receives them, of whom it is witnessed that he lives. 9 Even Levi, who receives tithes, paid tithes through Abraham, so to speak, 10 for he was still in the loins of his father when Melchizedek met him.

This passage of scripture neatly ties together the Levitical priesthoods receipt of the tithe as part of the law. Reading on………,

…….11 Therefore, if perfection were through the Levitical priesthood (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be called according to the order of Aaron? 12 For the priesthood being changed, of necessity there is also a change of the law…, 18 For on the one hand there is an annulling of the former commandment because of its weakness and unprofitableness, 19 for the law made nothing perfect; on the other hand, there is the bringing in of a better hope, through which we draw near to God.

Said Levitical priesthood, has now being done away with and the law subsequently changed (abolished, nailed to the cross). The epistle was written specifically to new Hebrew converts to Christianity. The main thrust was to expound the superiority of the new covenant of grace over the old covenant of the law.

But what about Matthew 5:17 you say? "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. The Lord fulfilled the law by living it perfectly! He was born under, lived and fully satisfied every ordinance of the law (Luke 2:21-24). Fulfilling in this instance meant to satisfy, not to restore, as is commonly preached. The Law and the Prophets were until John the Baptist (Matthew 11:13, Luke 16:16). Jesus came and died without sin to free us from the Law (Galatians 4:4-5), by abolishing it (Ephesians 2:15, Colossians 2:14). But He rose again (Is glorified and sat at the right hand of the Majesty on high)! Alleluia! Ushering in the new dispensation of grace. Blessed be God.

So there is no tithe for two essential reasons;
1. We are not under the law
2. There is no longer a Levitical priesthood (but those pesky Pharisees won’t quit!)

All this begs further questions. But then truth always does. I chose this as a starting point because this is how it unfolded for me. There’s more, but for now, let me leave you with this;

Matthew 17:24 When they had come to Capernaum, those who received the temple tax came to Peter and said, "Does your Teacher not pay the temple tax?" 25 He said, "Yes." And when he had come into the house, Jesus anticipated him, saying, "What do you think, Simon? From whom do the kings of the earth take customs or taxes, from their sons or from strangers?" 26 Peter said to Him, "From strangers." Jesus said to him, "Then the sons are free………

Peace.

i believe we should pay our tithes.
The reason many have opposed the idea on this posting is that they fear what pastors will do with it.

Que.
If you think your pastor is that greedy then why do is he still your pastor?
How come you're so interested in your pastor only when it comes to money matters?
If you decided to give your tithes to the poor. How come the command to give your tithe and to give to the poor are completely different?
If your pastor is really greedy, why you feel you are they one to react by not giving your tithe? Or God cannot defend his own again?

I believe that if you wanted to analyse every things in the bible, you'll finally find a reason to sin. That's because you finding a way to align what is written to what you feel should have been written.

Forgive my being blunt.

I agree, those who know what they are saying do not use many words.

They say tiithe was paid in kind (produce and animals) ; what they fail to undersatnd is that these (produce and animals) were currency then.

Hi Donnie,

Saw your post. No offense intended, but you are mistaken. The scripture clearly shows that Abraham paid cash money for a tomb in which to lay his wife Sarah top rest.

Genesis 23:16 And Abraham listened to Ephron; and Abraham weighed out the silver for Ephron which he had named in the hearing of the sons of Heth, four hundred shekels of silver, currency of the merchants. 17 So the field of Ephron which was in Machpelah, which was before Mamre, the field and the cave which was in it, and all the trees that were in the field, which were within all the surrounding borders, were deeded 18 to Abraham as a possession in the presence of the sons of Heth, before all who went in at the gate of his city. 19 And after this, Abraham buried Sarah his wife in the cave of the field of Machpelah, before Mamre (that is, Hebron) in the land of Canaan. 20 So the field and the cave that is in it were deeded to Abraham by the sons of Heth as property for a burial place.

If that is not evidence enough, read the law as received by Moses.

Deuteronomy 14:22 "You shall truly tithe all the increase of your grain that the field produces year by year. 23 And you shall eat before the Lord your God, in the place where He chooses to make His name abide, the tithe of your grain and your new wine and your oil, of the firstborn of your herds and your flocks, that you may learn to fear the Lord your God always. 24 But if the journey is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, or if the place where the Lord your God chooses to put His name is too far from you, when the Lord your God has blessed you, 25 then you shall exchange it for money, take the money in your hand, and go to the place which the Lord your God chooses. 26 And you shall spend that money for whatever your heart desires: for oxen or sheep, for wine or similar drink, for whatever your heart desires; you shall eat there before the Lord your God, and you shall rejoice, you and your household.

The tithe was never money, and tithing is not a Christian practice.

But please don't believe me, believe God for therein is righteousness.

God bless

donnie:

I agree, those who know what they are saying do not use many words.

They say tiithe was paid in kind (produce and animals) ; what they fail to undersatnd is that these (produce and animals) were currency then.

Nonsense ----- is that why the Bible said people who wanted to pay money instead of their tithes should add an extra 2.5% in money? Is that why in Deuteronomy 14, people were told to turn their tithes into money if the tithes were too heavy?

And who says mint, dill cummin, oranges, bananas, pepper, grapes, goats, lamb, ewe etc etc etc were "currency" in Israel at this or any time?

Enigma:

Nonsense ----- is that why the Bible said people who wanted to pay money instead of their tithes should add an extra 2.5% in money? Is that why in Deuteronomy 14, people were told to turn their tithes into money if the tithes were too heavy?

And who says mint, dill cummin, oranges, bananas, pepper, grapes, goats, lamb, ewe etc etc etc were "currency" in Israel at this or any time?

Obviously, people too lazy to know any better, thats who!

These items were a store of value for them. These were their assets.

Its 10% of all your increase according to the bible; material substance or money.

donnie:

Its 10% of all your increase according to the bible; material substance or money.

According to the Bible?

Please show me.

Thank you.

Tithing is a means of defence from the devourer, I know a man who one day when armed robbers came to his house Told God 'God prove yourself' , He put his tithe record on the ground by the door to his house and then unlocked the door then went back to sleep. The armed robbers could not find the entrance to his house! even though they were standing in front of his door. God is a God of Covenant, If you do what malachi 3 says then You have a right to rebuke the devil if he lays a finger on your finances.

This can not be true. Because you are reading your bible out of context. What language did GOD use when speaking to this man?

kenshin:

Tithing is a means of defence from the devourer,

No it is not!
Or should I say, please refer me to the relevant scriptures to support that statement!

A Christian walks in covenant with God, eschews evil and the evil one stays away.

1John 5:18 - We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.

If you think a little about your original post, it is little more than reformed "babalawoism". Not to mention that it smacks of  indulgent self-righteousness.

Feel free to tithe all you please. But don't blaspheme by saying God demands it or scripture instructs it. Tithing is quite simply not a Christian imperative.

God bless

Back again after a 6 week + absence. You know this tithe thing gets deeper and deeper and worser the more I study it. Our modern practice of so-called tithing is actually what we would call wage earner tithing, now based on scripture rightly divided, any one(preacher, pastor, evangelist, apostle, prophet etc.)that teaches, preaches, promotes, advocates the practice of wage earner tithing using Malachi 3 as the primary enforcement tool is going straight to hell, God is obligated to send people to hell who teach doctrines of devils and practice witchcraft on Gods people, those who support these damnable tithe teachers are somewhat in trouble too though God in his mercy will probably spare those that do it in ignorance. Wage earner tithe teaching is a love of money(1 Tim 2:10)teaching and one of the major foundations of the false prosperity movement, this teaching must not only be renounced personally but must be renounced publicly and attacked, those that teach it(which just so happens to be 99.99999, % of the church here in the USA)must be soundly rebuked( Titus 1:11-13). Wage earner tithe teaching as taught by most churches makes goats out of Gods people because they end up giving only to there churches( buildings).

Donnie, I hope you are reading

I am prophesying tirade from the resident "denominational apologists" and "MOG mouthpieces"

TVO1 Read malachi 3:8-11,
A lot of christians suffer simply because they are ignorant and not because God is wicked, that is why You must know God for yourself and not what just any Man of God tells you.

And please get something paying tithe is your choice just as serving God is a choice you make however if you do it you get blessed and if you don't then well, you remain the same.
The Apostles in Acts had a habit of giving 100% instead of 10%. I think the problem why most people are against tithiing is because of what they percieve as the Greed of men of God. but get this. what the pastor does with it is between him and God . you can't judge him. God has not placed their whip in your hand. Read Numbers 12:1-16

Yes Moses may have been wrong for marrying a foreigner but guess who got punished!
my point is be persuaded and be led by the word of God and not anger because of what they have turned churches into. God bless you

Hi Kenshin,

Please see following post.

Hi Kenshin,

kenshin:

TVO1 Read malachi 3:8-11,

As suggested, I read the noted scripture. Thank you. Your point being?

kenshin:

And please get something paying tithe is your choice just as serving God is a choice you make however if you do it you get blessed and if you don't then well, you remain the same.

I agree with the fact that paying tithe and serving God are both choices.
However, I don't confuse the two.

God does not mandate tithe paying, neither is it a scriptural imperative.
If people join a particular church tradition and insist on tithing, I have no problem with that.
I simply do not agree with people who preach it as a biblical command and  attach a curse to non compliance.

Remain blessed

Oops, apologies for the double post. Please ignore the first one.

I am not against tithing because of the greed of "men of God".
I am not even against tithing per se.
I am against tithing that is enforced/preached as scripturally mandated, and used to bind people.

Christians give. Full stop.

One last thing, whatever our differing perspectives/opinions on the term "man of God", can you really qualify it with the "greed"?

It's good to talk

God bless

Stealing in the name of thy, Tithe

Abeg to tithe. Can one rob God? without paying just the one-tenth of your income u are definitely robing God of which one can't do. It is biblical, the bible says "try me in this and see if I will not open the windows of heaven for you" so the more u pay ur tithe, the more God blesses u more.

Please don't be discourage, it is good to pay tithe, OK?

Wouldn't it be far better if everybody paid 10% of their income to charities instead of using it to finance the pastor's SUV?

The impression that tithes are just  used to finance the "Pastor's SUV" or whatever you call it is a very wrong one.
They are given to charities too,and also used for the up keep of the church and it's physical properties/needs.