JeSoul:

@All and @Poster,
  I'm no expert on the state of churches in Nigeria as I've been gone a long time, but is this really how majority (at least 90%) of churches are in Naija?

It is not just about naija churches but the whole concept of instituitionalized christianity that is clearly unscriptural. There are so many things wrong with the church toady and i believe the probelm started in the catholic church when they had the first reformation in 325AD. the church was instituitionalized then and made very powerful cause emperor constantine wanted to use the church to achieve political objectives. Even after various churchs started breaking away from the catholic church they still kept a number of the unbiblical practises and doctrines cause it gave the religious leaders control and influence over the flock. The first church to break away [anglican church] actually broke away becos the king of England then was involved in Adultery and he did not want to be subject to the pope. Today most churches especially pentecostal ones break away or are started for financial reasons or money making ventures. You would be shocked what you would discover if you get involved in church politics or get close to it's leadership.

JeSoul:

@All and @Poster,
  I'm no expert on the state of churches in Nigeria as I've been gone a long time, but is this really how majority (at least 90%) of churches are in Naija?

dont bank on saint kunle "i am the only one standing in nigeria" said so my sister.  we all know most nigerians will sell their soul for money but i like to believe there are some good churches in nigeria.  God has His people and congregations amongst those churches.

kunle in my opinion is one stingy fellow who has boxed himself into a tight corner that the enemy is about to shake.  he has hanged out on the streets of self righteousness and criticism so long he forgot the diabolical land lord had its prize.  he is near paying the prize everyone that goes too close to the world and its way of thinking pays. i just hope he saved enough money cos he is about to need it.

KunleOshob:

Today most churches especially pentecostal ones break away or are started for financial reasons or money making ventures. You would be shocked what you would discover if you get involved in church politics or get close to it's leadership.

nice history but i hate to keep telling you i jyust dont believe you are the only christian in nigeria. if you are then you carry a very dark light i would rather not be part of. remember God telling elijah there are 7000 more who are still standing.

i pray to God you keep your miserable company and dont go marry one mans daughter with your i am the better person attitude.

we are all sinners emeritus yes including your sanctimonious deluded self. you join us all in our ugly sinning attitudes and lifestyles

What is a bit confusing Kunle is that you seem to know what the will of God is in your life and paradoxically you are looking for a church where that which you believe to be the will of God is practiced. I can assure you that you will not find any church, religion, or sect where the will of GOD is practiced.  Spiritually speaking, "CHURCH" are human beings who live according to the laws of God and these human beings whether here on earth, the beyound the earth or even in heaven are linked spiritually even when they have never met each other physically. They are linked, thus in fellowship (even when it is unknown to their day counsciousness) because the will of God to which each one of them submits to connects them for eternity to GOD. Thus man does not need a church, a religion or sect to serve God. His spirit is in the likeness of the image of God and it is his spirit that can gain connection to God and his will. Only the spirit can open itself to God, nothing else can gain that connection. Some individuals can open their spirit to God in the mountans, in the meadows, in the churches or places of worship, in their bedroom, in sleep etc. If the mountains or meadows, the churches or religious revivals, the bedroom or living room, sleep or silence etc can help the spirit to open itself to the power of God, then such a person should go to those places that sensitizes his spirit to open and recieve the power of God. Thus for some people they still need the churches, the mountains, the meadows, silence etc. But as the spirit grows, a time will also come when such a spirit is connected to the power of God for all time and such a spirit does not need processes, places or events to sensitize it to opening itself to the power of God, rather connection with the power of God is a living part  that spirit. That is, the entire life of such a man is a living tastement of his recognition and submission to the will of God. In heaven, their are no sects, religion or churches but the will of God. Stay blessed.

@m_nwanko
Thanx for your words, they are truely thought provoking and inspirational.

KunleOshob:

It is not just about naija churches but the whole concept of instituitionalized christianity that is clearly unscriptural.

 I agree largely with you but don't you believe that there needs to be some form of structure in the "church" that bears some semblance to an 'institution'?

 What I mean is the bible talks about selecting Deacons as "leaders in the church" and the coming together and orderly worship and with the case of dispersing of funds to the widows etc. The gifts of spirit - particularly that of administration -  indicates to me on some level that the church even though it is "us" and not the buildings, needs to be structured and organized.

Today most churches especially pentecostal ones break away or are started for financial reasons or money making ventures. You would be shocked what you would discover if you get involved in church politics or get close to it's leadership.

 lol . . . I am shocked by few things. I do wholeheartedly agree that a good chunk of churches in the "pentecostal movement" were started by wolves in pastors clothing who are only out to make money - there is no doubt about that.

But please permit me to add that I've been to many many churches (I'm a musician and get to go to many churches) and I've seen everything from money extracting businesses parading as churches to the most warm genuinue and kind hearted, christ-driven people doing the Lord's work in peace and humility.


 What I'm saying is this: I don't feel bad or down or depressed about the state of the "church" of Christ, becos what people are calling the church of Christ is not the church. The real, genuine church is out there, doing exploits and loving people and following the Lord with total devotion. These people I focus on and draw inspiration from. They are all around us hidden in the open.

KunleOshob:

@m_nwanko
Thanx for your words, they are truely thought provoking and inspirational.

Thank you too and best wishes.

@ topic

didnt know you were attending church before.

There is nothing that the present church is doing that is not biblical( all christians use the bible to defend their beliefs), christianity has never really been one since the beginning the founders have always had their differences, How do you expect the religion to survive in a fast changing world? christianity has to function and survive in a modern society if it wants to stay its course and continue to be a religion that draws many followes, if it doesn't change it will die off. All religions have to adapt or interpret their texts to fit in with reality. For example the moslems and facing mecca when praying, all kinds of interpretations and excuses have been provided to make it look rational for people that live in other parts of the planet. Holding on to strict doctrine is an ultimately not tenable, since the doctrine has demonstrably been changing all the time and what exists now is clearly not that which existed at earlier points in time.

I'm split between two things - the fact that the bible also encourages us to gather together in worship as often as we can and the fact that like kunle said . . . a lot of the churches of today are simply monuments to greed.

I grew up reading the "religious" books of the likes of Robert Liardon, Oral Roberts, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland . . . men i once revered have turned out to be no more than salesmen in cassocks. Hawking prayer cloths, stealing from the poor to finance their luxury and promoting sins like homosexuality in the name of "love".

Does it mean that the church as a building is no longer relevant? No. Even Christ prayed with His disciples, the early apostles also fellowshipped one with another . . . the bible says iron sharpeneth iron so as much as the church is the people, the building is also important. The purpose for attending church is now more important than ever, are you going there to be fed a balanced spiritual diet or you are going there because it is the finest building in town and you'd like to be a part of the religious social club? Are you going there because they have a solid music band? Are you going because the pastor is the flashiest in town and the best babes abound there?

Much more than bashing the church, i think we need to do an introspection. Some churches will never be 100% perfect but so long as God is there and is the Lord crucified is preached . . . i will pitch my tent there until the Spirit guides to some place else.

In my opinion, The right church can be a wonderful blessing that brings us closer to God. The wrong church can be just the opposite. Whether or not a particular church is "right" or "wrong" depends on whether or not it helps YOU. It might be the right church for you and the wrong one for me. However, none of us have to go to church to be saved. All we have to do is seek a relationship with God through Christ. If going to church strengthens that relationship, by all means, go. If it does not, put that same time and energy into something that does strengthen it, like simply talking to God through prayer.

@ Kunle

I am sorry that you feel that way, but wouldn't that mean you are going against the Bible? Because the whole point of the church is for us all to commune together, and you seem to want to do what you see in the Bible, but by not going to church you are doing the exact opposite of what you say you want to do. The Church communed together and they met on the Lord's day. To give that up is to go against your own belief.

:-x :-x :-x

Copied from another thread.

Don't be deceived in believing that there are no sound christians available ; there are, I promise you. That is why I say SEEK for them. It helped me in my years of similar confusion. Don't allow the devil to lead you from your state of confusion to total hatred of the people of God. I t will be from frying pan to fire- a BIGGER SPIRITUAL COMPLICATION and TRANSGRESSION. You can still love whoever deceived you. However pray earnestly to your Father in heaven for better instructions and guidance.
Remain Blessed.

@bindex
There is nothing that the present church is doing that is not biblical( all christians use the bible to defend their beliefs), christianity has never really been one since the beginning the founders have always had their differences, How do you expect the religion to survive in a fast changing world? christianity has to function and survive in a modern society if it wants to stay its course and continue to be a religion that draws many followes, if it doesn't change it will die off. All religions have to adapt or interpret their texts to fit in with reality. For example the moslems and facing mecca when praying, all kinds of interpretations and excuses have been provided to make it look rational for people that live in other parts of the planet. Holding on to strict doctrine is an ultimately not tenable, since the doctrine has demonstrably been changing all the time and what exists now is clearly not that which existed at earlier points in time.

I'm not sure u understand anything in the Bible.
Would u rather bow to baal in the name of gaining followership?
You are very wrong on your note!

davidylan:

I'm split between two things - the fact that the bible also encourages us to gather together in worship as often as we can and the fact that like kunle said . . . a lot of the churches of today are simply monuments to greed.

I grew up reading the "religious" books of the likes of Robert Liardon, Oral Roberts, Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland . . . men i once revered have turned out to be no more than salesmen in cassocks. Hawking prayer cloths, stealing from the poor to finance their luxury and promoting sins like homosexuality in the name of "love".

Does it mean that the church as a building is no longer relevant? No. Even Christ prayed with His disciples, the early apostles also fellowshipped one with another . . . the bible says iron sharpeneth iron so as much as the church is the people, the building is also important. The purpose for attending church is now more important than ever, are you going there to be fed a balanced spiritual diet or you are going there because it is the finest building in town and you'd like to be a part of the religious social club? Are you going there because they have a solid music band? Are you going because the pastor is the flashiest in town and the best babes abound there?

Much more than bashing the church, i think we need to do an introspection. Some churches will never be 100% perfect but so long as God is there and is the Lord crucified is preached . . . i will pitch my tent there until the Spirit guides to some place else.

bros david thanks for your matured post but i think it is not fair to add brothers Roberts,  Hagin and Copeland name to homosexuality.  brother liardon has since repented and as far as i know living a clean life now. guilty by association is not a good thing in matters like these cos  when one of us fall the bible said the spiritual ones should stand and restore the fallen. do we throw out the baby with the water?

there had to be people standing with him to restore i wont call that endorsement.  we are allowed to hate sins and never the sinner.

i like your monument of greed. God help us.

God bless

yes d church aint perfect n i'm goin 2 judge no one, cos i believe my bible is enough 4 me 2 make heaven!

Bolarge:

@KunleOshob

U really seem to be making progress in ur self designed but ultimately spiritually ill-fated trajectory.

thanx Bolarge, I love the attached illustration, apt,
Its a progressive thing.
HE THAT THINKETH HE STAND,

amigoes:


thanx Bolarge, I love the attached illustration, apt,
Its a progressive thing.
HE THAT THINKETH HE STAND,

Seconded

This is a well thought out thread

I agree with the poster on many things concerning the state of the church today, especially in Nigeria. I will come back and speak my mind later in the day. However I want to ask this question before I head to the shopping mall:

Why is it that when Nigerian Churches print posters, leaflets and make banners for christian revivals and events, it is the face of the pastor, evangelists, bishops and arch-bishops that is on the face of the promotional materials? Are they not supposed to put the picture of Jesus on the promotional materials? Who are we promoting here, mates?

Food for thought.

I'll come back later to this thread. Cheers.

@poster
just love GOD nad his son JESUS CHRIST for who they are, their unconditional love to you.
You might need man to guide you though, but know that man is imperfect , at least the BIBLE made us to know all these things. So u shouldnt be that much surprised.
Just love GOD, worship him cos of his mercy, kindness, grace and love towards you despite your shortcomings.
Never look unto man but to GOD the author and the finisher of our faith

Redman44:

This is a well thought out thread

Why is it that when Nigerian Churches print posters, leaflets and make banners for christian revivals and events, it is the face of the pastor, evangelists, bishops and arch-bishops that is on the face of the promotional materials? Are they not supposed to put the picture of Jesus on the promotional materials? Who are we promoting here, mates?

Food for thought.

There is no picture of Jesus that we know of that is correct. Even in the bible, people gathered to locations when they knew Paul would be there to preach or minister. The key here is that the motive behind using the pictures is to draw people in and reveal the truth of Christ to them. Human beings respond to name recognition - as always, the final aim is the key, if it will bring people to Christ, there is nothing wrong with it.

It is good to fellowship with one another. You need to go to church

@ Poster, this is a very interesting thread, and funny you brought it up, ever since i left for the UK, I had probably attended church regularly maybe about 10 times in 6 years lol, now, i'm back to lagos, my parents go to church regularly, last sunday, I got so dumbfounded when i asked a pastor (at the time i didnt know he was) to help carry some bags, since he was going to the same location, and he turned at me with the most snubby look and asked why he would do that?, then i got told by the ushers that pastors dont carry or help with stuff cause it looks bad for their image. Honestly it was only because i respect the house of God, i didnt raise my voice tt that pastor,

"Image", what does image have to do with anything, Jesus washed the feet of men, I told my dad about this who is a Deacon by the way, and he told me that was why he never gets involved with the church anymore. I have started to look at things differntly now,

Jesus taught us to love as the Poster said, love your neighbor as yourself.

Something i dont get is, churches get so much revenue from offerings and tithe and whatever they do nowadays, Why do the need to build bigger buildings, why not build schools, orphanages, etc, take care of the environment. I think there are a very few honest churches out there.
I once saw a despicable advert on tv for a church advertising its miracles - "if you want a baby", "if you want to be healed", what bullshit, we've turned the church into a political, and marketing tool, its disgusting,

we shld know that the word of God shld not be read like any book, its a book filled with words of life and spirit, and shld be read and understood with the help of the holy spirit.

what jesus what telling the woman in at the well, is that a time will come, when u dnt have to go to a certain place to woirship God. ( you will understand, before then that the early christains had a place for worship, like the moslems do, it was believe that was where you find God) now jesus came to give christainity a new dimension, creating a consciousness that God is spirit and we shld worship him like the spirit God that he is, not travel to a moutain where the ark of God was suppose to be.

dont be deceive, christain gathering is very important. hebrew 10:25, meeting is the only way to strengthen each others faith,and prevent backslidng. that is why, paul wrote to different churches tell them to hold steadfast, and keep the faith.

and there is assembly even in heaven. read revelations.

@ KunleOshob
"The true church of christ has absolutely nothing to do with tithes". I beg to disagree with your concept on tithing as quoted. You might want to read Mathew 23:23 for clarity. Read with patience and try to understand the (b) part of it. My understanding there is that Jesus did not outrightly say we should not pay tithe but that while paying tithe, we should not also forget other wieightier matters of the kingdom.

Like RicK Warren wrote, looking for a perfect church is a futile effort because no church is perfect. And if you find one, the perfection of the church ceases the moment you join since an imperfect man just joined the group (quote paraphrased)

If you decide to fellowship on your own, where is the place of the five fold ministry as exemplified in Ephesians 4:11-13. At least for one to be called a pastor, he must have a flock is shepherding. So the concept of the church as described is not just the INSTITUTIONALIZED thing as you always pointed out. God never designed us to grow in isolation that is why the five fold ministry is for the perfecting of the saints.

In the same vein,  You might want to read Philemon 1:2 when apostle paul was referring to Apphia and Archippus and the church in his house. This probably means there is a gathering in that house as there could also be in several houses in their times (Colssians 4:16). So how would that sound in our present generation with billions of christians gathering in houses alone like that. I guess there would be lack of proper sheperding hence a need for an organised gathering and worship not necessarily for the sake of denomination and money making as you pointed out.

I am sure by the time you start to meet alone, others will, as well, come to join you and before you know it, another church is born that will be looking for a place to worship since your house will be too small to contain you in the offing.

My advise for you is to look for a church and worship God there. If you are not sure of any, you might want to give; The RCCG, Foursquare Gospel Church, Deeper Life or latter Rain assembly if you are in Lagos; a try. Please, I am not emphasizing any denomination here, I am just mentioning the churches that I know, at least, with tested and trusted leadership. Dont be discouraged by the Building, God is everywhere and He would not hesitate to be where is people are gathered inspite of the cost of their biulding.

God bless you man, you will succeed!

Hello everyone!

I was actually very happy/thrilled to read this post!

I've been praying these past few years to find people who by God's grace, still have their thinking caps on. The bible calls it discernment and orders every Christian to exercise it, but we know better these days, don’t we?

I too was in your shoes, and at one point in time, did something very stupid, but desperate. Somehow, God seemed to mercifully respond to me in my foolishness & desperation anyway. Here’s a small summary of my story:

After noticing how different current "christian" beliefs/practices differ from what the Christ and his apostles handed down, especially in my church then(which I’m itching to name here), I kept crying out to God to help me find a church where God's word is everything, a group of believers who know that God's rightly divided word of truth should be the source of all Christian doctrine & practice.

Now here’s the foolish thing I did. I’d had my fill of the madness one day, got home and prayed that he (God) either help me find a church that was still true to the scriptures, or I stop reading my bible and just go with the flow - which of course, requires no effort at all, except silencing my conscience. I didn't see how it’s possible to be the only among billions of people who actually took time to study the bible for himself and then compare popular Christian beliefs and practices with it.

So I prayed, just like I’d prayed about so many things before and almost all the time, didn’t get the answer I wanted. This time it was different. I wished I’d prayed for a $100 billion dollars that day instead  . Because like a dream, God answered my prayer that same week! I found a church/group of believers just as I’d prayed for! They too had been part of the Pentecostal madness but God in his mercy began to deal with the elders in the church and they started studying the scriptures and found out that they’d been teaching & practicing anything but biblical Christianity! They’d been preaching a false gospel, which of course, couldn’t save anybody.

The pastor(s) after much study concluded they either throw the bible away and continue in the craze, or repent and walk away from the apostasy. They chose to fear God and repent. So they informed the congregation and apologized for having led them astray in a false gospel. Now I don’t know for sure if any of the church members left at this point. But together (church elders and congregation), they started studying the scriptures and offloading all of mainstream/pentecostal Christianity false doctrines and errors, one by one. Now I’m in no way saying we’re a perfect church!

To cut the story short, I visited the church one Sunday (was the first to get there) and as God would have it, it turned out to be even much more than I’d hoped and prayed for.

Now I'd like to invite you and anybody else out there who (by God’s grace) is tired of the madness and apostasy going on in the world today in the name of Christianity. I’ve come to understand now, that it’s actually Bible prophecy being fulfilled in our time and God isn’t surprised at what’s going on today! Infact, the scary thing is, the bible points it out as a major pointer that Jesus’ return is VERY (yeah I know that’s not very correct) VERY IMMINENT! The bible does say that just before the return of Christ, there will be a “falling away first”, the love of many turning cold, people no longer willing to endure sound doctrine but will pile up for themselves teachers who tell them what their itching ears want to hear. Though fearful, this is happening, even with billions of people claiming to be Christians (not knowing they’re actually not) all over the world. Even one of Jesus’ most profound (I’d say fearful) statements was about this. He asked if he’d even find faith on earth when he returns!

So, again if you’re interested in fellowshipping with a church that’s rightly chosen not to conform, but to stick with the Gospel of Jesus Christ as taught by the apostles, and to contend for the faith which was once handed down to the saints, then please contact me! I’ll be very much willing to discuss any issues and answer any questions you may have and should you chose to visit with us, I’ll be more than happy to arrange that as well. My email address is petres_007@yahoo.com.

I’d also like to mention that I know just one other church, also here in Lagos, that also on their own (of course with God’s help) walked away from the madness when they started to properly study the scriptures. The entire church! And you’d actually find a pattern in all of this – the vast majority of church folks today do not properly study the scriptures and so remain in error. I think it’s noteworthy that wherever you find a Christian or group of Christians who start doing a proper study of the bible, they always end up walking away from the instutionalized Christianity! I’m not surprised at all by your post and those of others here.

So do please get in touch! Again, my email address is petres_007@yahoo.com and my name is Peter. I’m waiting to hear from you guys! Please don’t give up your faith. And please keep up the good work (studying your scriptures).

God bless!

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.  Jude 1:3 (RSV)

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.  1 Tim 3:16 (KJV)

@ Kunleoshob. . . Goodluck my brotha. Wish you all the best. I gave up on churches a long time ago.

beewhyfocs:

@ KunleOshob
"The true church of christ has absolutely nothing to do with tithes". I beg to disagree with your concept on tithing as quoted. You might want to read Mathew 23:23 for clarity. Read with patience and try to understand the (b) part of it. My understanding there is that Jesus did not outrightly say we should not pay tithe but that while paying tithe, we should not also forget other wieightier matters of the kingdom.

The scripture you quoted above is an often mis-interpreted scripture which so pastors use to justify the false doctrine of tithes in christianity. You would note that in the verse you quoted Jesus was talking to pharisees who were under the law at that time and thus obligated to tithe according to the law, however we are not under the law as christians and tithes was never taught to christians by Jesus or his apostles. Also note that the tithes mention in that passage were mint, cummin and herbs[agricultural produce] not money from income as people are deceived into believing today.

beewhyfocs:

My advise for you is to look for a church and worship God there. If you are not sure of any, you might want to give; The RCCG, Foursquare Gospel Church, Deeper Life or latter Rain assembly if you are in Lagos; a try. Please, I am not emphasizing any denomination here, I am just mentioning the churches that I know, at least, with tested and trusted leadership. Dont be discouraged by the Building, God is everywhere and He would not hesitate to be where is people are gathered inspite of the cost of their biulding.

God bless you man, you will succeed!

The churches you just mentioned above are very good reasons why a christian should stop attending church.

KunleOshob:

The scripture you quoted above is an often mis-interpreted scripture which so pastors use to justify the false doctrine of tithes in christianity. You would note that in the verse you quoted Jesus was talking to pharisees who were under the law at that time and thus obligated to tithe according to the law, however we are not under the law as christians and tithes was never taught to christians by Jesus or his apostles. Also note that the tithes mention in that passage were mint, cummin and herbs[agricultural produce] not money from income as people are deceived into believing today.



The churches you just mentioned above are very good reasons why a christian should stop attending church.

From your writings, its obvious you are not seeking for advice but looking for people to rubber stamp your decision or better still, join you in it. I pray that God would open your eyes of understanding in Jesus name, so you dont be the-know it-all person to whom others opinnion does not count as long it differs from yours.

Why did you say all those churces could make one not attend church?

Bah!

I have stopped going to church for some years now and really dont have time for those money swindlers and hypocrities in cassocks or Bishop collars trying to better the lot of themselves and their families through unbridled lies, aging dogmas, un substantiated doctrines and unbelievable miracles.

They have so hoodwinked the society that the fear of a pastor is more than the fear of a god and they are more godlike in a society than a god and since i left that abyss of immorality and lies, my life has been more peaceful and i dont have to worry and fear over one pastor big head or Bishop fat lip threatening me with thunder and brim stone for not paying my weekly taxes (Sorry i mean tithes unless i wont get any share of the miracles)

This is a plain display of Self-Righteousness.