ElRazur:

Fine by me. But the whole captain of the ship analogy is a classic biblical example no? "Jesu ni balogun oko yi" no? Okay cool.

No you are assuming that. Animal insticnt do not make one an animal in that sense, it more or less means doing what one is "programmed" to do. And from the way your original post goes, it is clear to all that you feel there should be a healthy measure of fearfulness. No?
Again No. I reject your analogy on the basis that it do not fit in with the issue at hand. This is between those in a relationship. I.e a relationship between people dating/married/in love etc and not that of a mother and child in which you painted. Narrow idea? Erm okay.
Here, my point is that both parties in relationship are equal and as such there is no single leader.

And from your original explanation, you expect a man to be in charge and put the woman in a position where she have a fear of the man [even though you say "healthy"]. I then went on to explain how been afraid in what ever form will is wrong.

You claimed your belief have nothing to do with this, yet your arguments are bordering on the classic bible lines of "As God is the head of the ship, so is man the head of the house" or something along those lines

Dude. Let us stick to the issue at hand. It is an open forum please feel free to ask them. I really do not have to do that for you. Or perhaps if you disagree with my view and calling me a wimp, may be you should be "man enough" to come out and say so? Just a thought.

There is still hope, amen.

davidylan:

Try flying an aircraft "50-50". It makes absolutely no sense . . . many of you really need to sit down and talk with your mothers and see how your 50-50 idea holds up. American marriages are all about 50-50 . . . care to give me the divorce rates.

A plane is not a relationship. Just the same way your original example between a mother and a child is not applicable.

davidylan:


I am a proponent of women being submissive to their men and i have no apologies for that.

And this is the part where I really do not feel it is worth debating this further.

In the mean time, please elaborate more on this submissiveness you speak of. Treating women like a second or third rate person in a relationship? No?

.

platinumnk:

Its not racism its a blunt observation.

flying an aircraft? If both pilots sat down and said hey u fly tonight and tommor you fly?

The whole "submissive thing" leaves a nasty taste in my mouth

My mother told me to be with someone who respects me not some one who wants become my  "lordship"

So, basically, your mom advised you not to marry an Ibo man?!!?!? Very smart woman!!!

platinumnk:

Its not racism its a blunt observation.

flying an aircraft? If both pilots sat down and said hey u fly tonight and tommor you fly?

The whole "submissive thing" leaves a nasty taste in my mouth

My mother told me to be with someone who respects me not some one who wants become my  "lordship"

Its not. Its false generalisation bothering on an inferiority complex. I asked a question the other time . . . can you provide us with divorce statistics for your "wonderful" nations where 50-50 marriages are practiced?

As regards your "flying an aircraft" stuff. That was just laughable.   no such thing exists in the cockpit, the first officer ONLY takes command of the aircraft in the event of incapacitation of the aircraft commander. I guess that also leaves a sour taste in the mouth of the first officer.

ElRazur:

And from your original explanation, you expect a man to be in charge and put the woman in a position where she have a fear of the man [even though you say "healthy"]. I then went on to explain how been afraid in what ever form will is wrong.

Perhaps my use of the word "fear" was not in the best context but that was why i added the term "healthy" there. I might be wrong in your perspective and you have every right to question it.

Here is my point again in a nutshell . . . this idea that "there is no single leader" in a relationship holds no water. No offence meant here but even your parents would disagree with you. There just has to be someone making the hard decisions . . . the role of the leader is not to impose his will but to listen, coordinate varying opinions and then take a stand in the interest of both parties.

platinumnk:

My mother told me to be with someone who respects me not some one who wants become my  "lordship"

No one wants to be your lord. Christ was Lord over the disciples yet washed their feet. Sometimes the statements here betray a lack of understanding of what it truly means to be a leader.

Let me digress here and use my christian background to explain how i see leadership in a relationship - the bible said he that should be a leader shld be a SERVANT FIRST. Being a leader does not mean bossing everyone else around . . . it means being the one responsible for the other individual, it means sacrificial love, it means being able to lovingly correct your spouse (and being amenable to correction also when you are wrong), it means standing up for the relationship when the need arises, it means being the one in charge shld anything go wrong.

It DOES NOT and i repeat DOES NOT mean being Lord over your significant other.

davidylan:

Perhaps my use of the word "fear" was not in the best context but that was why i added the term "healthy" there. I might be wrong in your perspective and you have every right to question it.

Here is my point again in a nutshell . . . this idea that "there is no single leader" in a relationship holds no water. No offence meant here but even your parents would disagree with you. There just has to be someone making the hard decisions . . . the role of the leader is not to impose his will but to listen, coordinate varying opinions and then take a stand in the interest of both parties.

Fear cannot be healthy in my opinion and yeah it was a wrong word usage, but nothing do you.

Again, some will say that is an archaic of thinking and very much bothers on the principles of a few religion.

None taken. I am not my parents and what they do in their relationship is their own palaver. In my relationship, all are equal and there is no single leader. When it comes to certain decision, she is better equipped than I am to make those decision and vice versa. I respect her decision in these kind of areas and she respects mine too. I guess this is why it is a relationship and not a "leadership and follow-ship. In my humble opinion, there really is no need for a leader etc IMO like you are suggesting.

But I guess we have to disagree to agree - or how did the saying goes again? If your approach works for you then no worries. I am happy for you. No vex, but arsenal football is on.

ElRazur:

A plane is not a relationship. Just the same way your original example between a mother and a child is not applicable.

My dear . . . nothing really is "applicable" as long as it does not advance your liberal views when it comes to relationships. I have asked again . . . can anyone provide the divorce statistics for countries where the nonsense about 50-50 . . . no real leader in a marriage stuff is practiced?

Its absurd that we take leadership everywhere else for granted and assume it shld be different in the most sacred institution of all - marriage.

ElRazur:

And this is the part where I really do not feel it is worth debating this further.

In the mean time, please elaborate more on this submissiveness you speak of. Treating women like a second or third rate person in a relationship? No?

What is the point? It probably wont be "applicable" to you anyway.

Let me just respond to the submission stuff for the benefit of others . . . no submission does NOT mean treating your woman as a second-rate individual in marriage. the bible asks wives to be submissive to their husbands . . . in the very next verse it says to "love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it".

Hmmm i think the husbands got the tougher end of the deal . . . even though most men simply read the "wives be submissive to your husbands" side of the story and run away.

To love your wife as Christ loved the church is to sacrifice for her even to the point of giving your life for her sake. A man who truly practices this has no need to ask his wife to be submissive to him . . .

ElRazur:

Fear cannot be healthy in my opinion and yeah it was a wrong word usage, but nothing do you.

Again, some will say that is an archaic of thinking and very much bothers on the principles of a few religion.

None taken. I am not my parents and what they do in their relationship is their own palaver. In my relationship, all are equal and there is no single leader. When it comes to certain decision, she is better equipped than I am to make those decision and vice versa. I respect her decision in these kind of areas and she respects mine too. I guess this is why it is a relationship and not a "leadership and follow-ship. In my humble opinion, there really is no need for a leader etc IMO like you are suggesting.

But I guess we have to disagree to agree - or how did the saying goes again? If your approach works for you then no worries. I am happy for you. No vex, but arsenal football is on.

lol i hope we win.

@Elzaur

We have heard you. We all have different opinions, yours is great and works well for you.

On topic however, just the same way I can't stand girls that are all over me, and there are plenty of them. Some women do not appreciate this sort of behaviour, some do of course. As a man, you need to understand who you're dealing with and treat them accordingly. This does not translate into being mean or being an Animal or Nigerian as some of you have suggested. It simply means that if you want to "keep" that woman, you need to know and "do" what it takes to. I for one, get bored of girls that are overly lovy-dovy. So if your woman does not appreciate clingy behaviour, don't be so clingy, make her want you.

OPs post has some major flaws, like the cheating bit, but there's definitely many valid points, that some of us will tend to agree with.

@David- Divorce Stats does not equalize actual happy marriages

If a woman is submissive where would she get the guts to divorce? In a place where it is a taboo?

Or a place where a man is beheaded because he authorized a divorce?

Men read the "women must be submissive" and take it to their heads,
meaning what i say goes and you are only here for the ride

platinumnk:

@David- Divorce Stats does not equalize actual happy marriages

If a woman is submissive where would she get the guts to divorce? In a place where it is a taboo?

Or a place where a man is beheaded because he authorized a divorce?

Men read the "women must be submissive" and take it to their heads,
meaning what i say goes and you are only here for the ride 

that is your own idea of what "submission" means. I dont agree with it.

the divorce stats are very important . . . they put to the lie the idea that no leader in a relationship = a better marriage. A "submissive" (your own wrong definition) has more than guts to demand for a divorce, she has the law on her side.

As regards the man beheaded for authorizing a divorce . . . it just goes to show that a lot of you will use absolutely ANYTHING to justify the unjustifiable. the guy is one in over 50 m men in Nigeria today. How many other men in Nigeria are beheading judges for giving their wives a divorce? Seriously what has that to do with the discussion here?

Are there no American men (your idea of civilised men) who kill their wives for leaving them? Pls watch trueTV for 1 night.

Am i a mugu if i get her a phone 3 weeks into the relationship?

.

Good points. Just that it applies to you and another person that has tried it and it worked for him.

In all my years of research on the word respect/control and how to earn it, i have discovered that it takes only giving it to earn it. Trust me, no matter the amount of cash you have to burn, or how handsome you look, or the attributes you have that sways ladies, if you don't give a lady the respect she deserves, you can kiss control goodbye.

Don't mistake acting as control, she acts up each time she is with you and you believe you are in control Be wise!!!

@OP
Lol like she's some kind of wild animal

davidylan:

that is your own idea of what "submission" means. I dont agree with it.

the divorce stats are very important . . . they put to the lie the idea that no leader in a relationship = a better marriage. A "submissive" (your own wrong definition) has more than guts to demand for a divorce, she has the law on her side.

As regards the man beheaded for authorizing a divorce . . . it just goes to show that a lot of you will use absolutely ANYTHING to justify the unjustifiable. the guy is one in over 50 m men in Nigeria today. How many other men in Nigeria are beheading judges for giving their wives a divorce? Seriously what has that to do with the discussion here?

Are there no American men (your idea of civilised men) who kill their wives for leaving them? Pls watch trueTV for 1 night.

again, divorce rates does not equal actual satisfaction in marriages.
Divorce rates cannot be compared to a place where divorce is a taboo.

Its a fallacy and it wont correlate.

Yes it may be different, but put it on  the same level playing field and see if its any different.

LAW on the side? Where? in Nigeria the capital of lawlessness?
abeg free me joo

@ OP: I don't necessarily agree with all your points, but DAMN! I love ur essay. MIC

@ OP: I don't necessarily agree with all your points, but DAMN! I love ur essay. MIC

platinumnk:

again, divorce rates does not equal actual satisfaction in marriages.
Divorce rates cannot be compared to a place where divorce is a taboo.

1. Divorce is NOT a taboo anywhere, not Nigeria. That is blatantly false. Divorce is actually on the rise there . . . you can say it is not looked upon favorably by the society at large but it is actually more common than you admit. Divorce rate does not equal satisfaction in marriage (i wonder where you got the idea that i insinuated that) but it is a barometer for how your false idea that 50-50 leaderless marriages are better than marriages where the males take active roles as the leader.

platinumnk:

LAW on the side? Where? in Nigeria the capital of lawlessness?
abeg free me joo

That same "lawless" Nigeria has courts that grant divorces to women who request them.

Nigeria as the capital of lawlessness? Wow! What fallacy.

lol@ David - we are at a standstill because we need actual facts

you say divorce is feasible, where i say taboo.

what happen to the guy whp beheaded the judge?
exactly.

In a place where the prez drops out the planet?

ok, when you place facts, then your argument is invalid.

platinumnk:

lol@ David - we are at a standstill because we need actual facts

you say divorce is feasible, where i say taboo.

what happen to the guy whp beheaded the judge?
exactly.

In a place where the prez drops out the planet?

ok, when you place facts, then your argument is invalid.

All these are irrelevant. they add nothing to this discourse.

Divorce is not a taboo in Nigeria . . . some of you need to actually live there before you start making false generalizations. People have been divorcing even before i was 2 yrs old and no one raised a finger. We do have divorce laws that are enforced, perhaps you shld pick up a few naija newspapers and read.

The guy who beheaded the judge is simply one in over 50m men in Nigeria . . . most of whom do not go around beheading judges over a divorce case. You cant try to use an aberration to support a non-argument. Ever heard of men who kill their wives rather than go thru a divorce? That is rampant here in the states and rare in Nigeria . . . i dont see u or anyone using that as a crutch to claim marriage is dysfunctional in the US.

The prez dropped off the planet? What has that to do with this thread?

Where are your own "facts"?

ok.gerald:

Am   i   a  mugu   if   i   get   her   a   phone  3   weeks   into   the   relationship?

You may not yet be a mugu but you are going quickly down the path of MUGU-hood. If you don't have much money and you bought her a phone, MUGU-hood is the least of your problems, you will soon start paying other bills. Right now she might call you all manner of sweet names because of the phone you just bought but in the long run she is going to take it for granted that you pay her bills and believe you me, the moment you lack money to pay those bills, problems start. Do not be an ATM machine.

It is better to control the relationship completely before gifting, let her respect you first and the relationship, then maybe 6 months down the road you get her something she really needs. Relationships should not be about giving presents, they wouldn't call gift's gift's if you doled them out every three weeks. A gift is meant to be special, stuff you give out during certain occasions. Everyday is not Christmas but by your actions it seems you want to play the year-round Santa Claus. Avoid the path to MUGU-hood.

Even if you have excess money to dole out, you can give more frequently than the guy who has less but do not make it something you do every 3 weeks. You don't give children sweets everyday, lest you spoil them. The natural instinct is you're doing it out of love, but excessive gifting corrupts the mind. Control is what is key. True control is always better than artificial control.

davidylan:

All these are irrelevant. they add nothing to this discourse.

Divorce is not a taboo in Nigeria . . . some of you need to actually live there before you start making false generalizations. People have been divorcing even before i was 2 yrs old and no one raised a finger. We do have divorce laws that are enforced, perhaps you shld pick up a few naija newspapers and read.

The guy who beheaded the judge is simply one in over 50m men in Nigeria . . . most of whom do not go around beheading judges over a divorce case. You cant try to use an aberration to support a non-argument. Ever heard of men who kill their wives rather than go thru a divorce? That is rampant here in the states and rare in Nigeria . . . i dont see u or anyone using that as a crutch to claim marriage is dysfunctional in the US.

The prez dropped off the planet? What has that to do with this thread?

Where are your own "facts"?

David, its not generalizing, a nigerian woman here went through hell from other nigerian for divorcing her husband.maybe one of two divorcees to you means that everyone has a freedom to divorce, but I know its not the case.
where its either muslim or christianity, divorce is very much frowned upon.

Can you tell me the reason why some nigerian couples that come abroad suddenly murder their wives.

And please, I cant argue enough that Nigeria is a state of lawlessness.

Can people be kidnapped in the US the way they are in Nigeria?

Or you have to bribe police at stops? I know its irrelavant to topic, but cant no one tell me Nigeria isnt lawless.

One rare shining moment does not make the whole country shine.


Women would rather poison their husbands than to divorce them.

@ Davidylan
Am super impressed by your fine points; its unbelievable how you manage to temper your tough, categorical imperatives with silky-smooth finesse and grace. Unfortunately, women (including my 'dear' platinum.nk) are scarcely convinced by arguments or logic, however compelling. But your points have been made in the most outstandingly conciliatory manner. Those women who pray to have a happy marriage would do well to learn. Thats that.

@ Platinum.nk

The sooner the idea of submissiveness sinks in with you, my dear, the better. Its just an unnegotiable imperative. Maybe you need to know that you could even end up wielding more influence by 'stooping to conquer'. Perhaps thats why the Bible alludes to the husband being the 'head', and the wife the 'neck'. Think about this carefully, and humbly.

platinumnk:

David, its not generalizing, a nigerian woman here went through hell from other nigerian for divorcing her husband.maybe one of two divorcees to you means that everyone has a freedom to divorce, but I know its not the case.
where its either muslim or christianity, divorce is very much frowned upon.

lol what an oxymoron . . . you claim that one or two divorces to me does not equate that everyone in Nigeria has the freedom to divorce then go right ahead to cite ONE CASE that you know as evidence?   You're quite funny.

Divorce is not looked on favorably by the society at large BUT the freedom to obtain a divorce is NOT an issue in Nigeria. I know an aunt (by marriage) who recently got divorced from her husband . . . no problems. There are myriads of cases like that . . . the celebrity divorce of 9ice and Toni Payne was even on this site. Who gave them hell? Puhlease.

platinumnk:

Can you tell me the reason why some nigerian couples that come abroad suddenly murder their wives.

What is this meant to prove? There are 5-10x more of such cases HERE in the US were divorce is supposedly easy . . . so what were you trying to say?

platinumnk:

And please, I cant argue enough that Nigeria is a state of lawlessness.

This is just pure rubbish. Leave in Nigeria first before making unfounded allegations. The crime rate in Nigeria is much less than that of SA . . . do you also consider that country "lawless"? The crime rate in Lagos is much lower than that of NY . . . i would disagree with you that NY is lawless.

platinumnk:

Can people be kidnapped in the US the way they are in Nigeria?

lol allow me to laugh here. you obviously have a myopic view that the US is some eldorado where kidnapping doesnt occur. At least in most of nigerian kidnappings, the victim is never killed. I'd daresay the whites would rather be kidnapped in Nigeria by MEND, they give them video games and feed them quite well.

platinumnk:

Or you have to bribe police at stops? I know its irrelavant to topic, but cant no one tell me Nigeria isnt lawless.

And there are no such cases here in the US? Is the US lawless too? Every society has its bad eggs.

platinumnk:

One rare shining moment does not make the whole country shine.

Neither does the case of a man who beheads a judge over his divorce reason for you to make the lie that divorce isnt free in nigeria

platinumnk:

Women would rather poison their husbands than to divorce them.

lol another absurd claim.

Thanks for the jokes.   Its hard to take some of you seriously.

To those talking about 50-50 relationships. Let me be factual with you. Nigerian women as we know them do not do 50-50 relationships. The only time 50-50 is convenient to them is when they want to lay down their own rules and regulations and ride you. Is is the same women who want men to pay for everything from a new phone to their Ikoyi apartments, that are 50-50 relationship material? Let us call a spade a spade. How many very successful women who make more than their husbands are into this so-called 50-50 thing? Most men who fall into the trap of artificial control or no control and have a woman who has more money than them live to regret it. As soon as the woman relaizes she has money control she believes she can do what she wants and everything becomes 70-30 if not 90-10. She will tell the whole world who is feeding who and who is paying for what.

Please let us be realistic. Do the relationships women so love to read about in Citi People and Ovation focus on 50-50? People will quote everything from Bible to The Devil's Handbook to support their claims. Is it not the same Bible that said Eve was created from Adam and should submit to him? And I'm not even a religious person.

Some lover boys here who feel they are the pictures of modern refinement and perfect gentlemen are hear screaming about slavery and juju as the definition of control. Control isn't about having a woman who shivers when she calls your name or keeping a whip by your bed. Or  having a woman who will prostrate on the ground when you come home. It's about having a woman who knows you won't be ridden or bullied into an absurd corner because she has some special space between her legs. Of course constructive criticism of your actions is welcome, she should be supportive and analyze your decisions as a wife or girlfriend, but not the one she will start shouting calling you obscene names or start telling you how you are not man enough, some even go to the extent of ridiculing you when she is with her friends. A man of control always has the respect of his wife, even when she gossips about her problems with you to her friends, she is busy blaming other women for her misfortunes and thinking of how to keep you to herself. Men of no control do not enjoy this luxury, their wives and girlfriends are too busy bashing them about everything from their weakness, to their lack of spending power and bed skills. Ignore the truth at your own peril.

pro01:

@ Davidylan
Am super impressed by your fine points; its unbelievable how you manage to temper your tough, categorical imperatives with silky-smooth finesse and grace. Unfortunately, women (including my 'dear' platinum.nk) are scarcely convinced by arguments or logic, however compelling. But your points have been made in the most outstandingly conciliatory manner. Those women who pray to have a happy marriage would do well to learn. Thats that.

thank you my brother. These women really need to speak with their mothers . . . it seems western culture has blinded most of them to the reality of what a marriage entails.

tai2 has basically encapsulated everything beautifully.

I disagree with some of the things the poster said but the women screaming 50-50 only say that when they want to lay down the laws but it comes to paying the bills then they knw its the husband job . . . . i mean c'mon
we cant shout 50-50 wheneva it suits us

ebonyz:

I disagree with some of the things the poster said but the women screaming 50-50 only say that when they want to lay down the laws but it comes to paying the bills then they knw its the husband job . . . . i mean c'mon
we cant shout 50-50 wheneva it suits us

the idea of 50-50 itself lacks merit. Marriage isnt a 9-5 job where you can muddle through. It takes hard work, dedication and LOTS of compromise. I am yet to see a functional car with two steering wheels. Its either the passengers allow the driver to dictate the route (with plenty of advice) or they steer the car in their own direction and everyone ends up going nowhere.

@ David- I lost family members due to poisoning.
maybe u think Nigeria is all rosy but even going by what I read here its a lie in itself

But before I further dilvulge from the topic, I cant go on since David views Nigeria as a bed of roses

When in all my 16 years of life I have never bribed a cop, never was afraid to walk around my neighboohood because of kidnappers. . . and actually when i dial 911 helps comes.

pro01:

@ Platinum.nk

The sooner the idea of submissiveness sinks in with you, my dear, the better. Its just an unnegotiable imperative. Maybe you need to know that you could even end up wielding more influence by 'stooping to conquer'. Perhaps thats why the Bible alludes to the husband being the 'head', and the wife the 'neck'. Think about this carefully, and humbly.

Submit to who? why? Am i less than them? Did I not also work and earn my degrees?

Because he has a differnt chromosone I should jump when he say jump?


Na, whats wrong with mutual respect?
So he says "baby I want to buy a 100,000 car though we are late in our mortage and I want you to submit to my will, I should do what he say?

Someone provide me an example of this so called submissiveness and tell me why its better than 50/50 mutual respect.


50/50 mutual respect i would not have a problem discussing things with my man because i know he respects me, and I would listen to him because  I respect his opinons, and we would eventually get to a solution.

Please tell me where submissiveness is in order.

As painful or annoying it may sound
There is nothing like 50-50 in a relationship. I dont knw abt anybody else ooo
cuz there cant be two bosses in a house, as long as my opinions n idea are respected and i am respected. i am fine.

Relationship invloves alot of compromise n scarifies so therefore there is nothing like 50-50.