@Debosky
Arsenal is so used to losing now that moving from 4th to 3rd is improvement that is the sad reality we live with at the Emirates but look on the bright side at least for the first time since 2005 we don't have too play those pesky qualifying rounds. Voila! Another Improvement! We thank Lord Wenger for little mercies se iwo na o ni se ope ti e ni?

A-40:

@Debosky
Arsenal is so used to losing now that moving from 4th to 3rd is improvement that is the sad reality we live with at the Emirates but look on the bright side at least for the first time since 2005 we don't have too play those pesky qualifying rounds. Voila! Another Improvement! We thank Lord Wenger for little mercies se iwo na o ni se ope ti e ni?

The day I accept such mediocrity is the day I stop following Arsenal football club.

Just watch what will happen - the ridiculous thing is expecting Utd and Chelski to get worse.

Apart from Giggs and Scholes, who is getting worse for Utd? Rooney, Nani, Gibson, Carrick, Vidic, Evra, Rafael, Fletcher, Park amongst others will not get worse.

Who will get worse for Chelski? The core of the team - Terry, Cech, Bosingwa, Cole, Essien, Lampard, Drogba will still be there firing next year. Liverpool will do their best to step up, and lets not mention what Citeh will do.

Instead we hope they'll get worse while keeping duds like Almunia, Silvestre and gutless players (on the big stage) like Diaby.

In fact we have better talent coming through but we can't beat Spurs who just lost to Portsmouth 3 days earlier after resting for 8 days. We are looking at Utd and saying they regressed because they drew away, but we are 'better' despite losing away.

A-40:

@Duduspace
5 seasons is enough to fail anyone's beliefs my guy. We are fans and not Auschwitz camp inmates. You say 'if' we had won but we failed again. Policy or no policy if a couple got married and after 5 years of consistent sleep with.ging and no conception i think it would not be outta line if they went to see a fertility doc

How long exactly is 5 years? lets take some time scales:

Chelsea didn't win the league for 50 years, then won it 2 times in 2 years when an individual pumped money into the club with the club still indebted to this individual.
Barcelona didn't win anything for 6 years while building a youth policy, then won everything last year, 2 UCL championships in 3 seasons and look on cause to come close again this season and while stabilizing their youth policy still bought a lot of big name players without winning anything (cos they did run up a 300m debt in the process)
Nottingham Forest won the champions cup twice in 3 years in the 1980s but have been out of the PL for about 15 years now

Now Arsenal wouldnt have won any trophy for the past 5 seasons if we win nothing by the end of this season but in the past 12 years have not droppped out of the topmost 4 clubs in the PL, in the past 4 years have consistently been in the top 8 in europe, now given a choice between what we have achieved and winning the Carling cup yearly and being in Tottenham's position never getting into the UCL, which would you take? My point being that things can be oversimplified by the statement Arsenal haven't won anything in the past 6 years.

And about that couple, would they also not be outta line to start Dibia consultations? or going for baths around midnight at bar beach?

A-40:

You say we where given no chance and i ask since when did The Arsenal sink to that abyss?

It is an abyss created by the media and the well meaning albeit short sighted fans.

A-40:

How much longer would The Arsenal settle for such mediocrity? Clearly Wenger must have learnt Universal Mind Control in Japan because this mass hypnosis is beyond me what even irks me the most is when y'all talk about improvement! We won nothing last season and would win nothing most likely this season so what else has changed except the diapers on Wenger's babies? Improvement is going from trophyless in one season to carling cup to the league and then the league and UCL and then the league & carling cup again not 5 seasons of barreness where we have not even featured in a final in 3 seasons! That ain't improvement thats mediocrity

Mediocrity can be defined on many levels but basically is when you've lost the ability to compete, we have not lost that. When I talk about improvement, I'm going season by season. Last season we didn't compete for the PL (which is the standard for the strength of your squad) but this season we did which shows that our squad has improved. The 2 clubs that have retrogressed in the top 4 this season are Manure and Liverpool.

A-40:

You say you don't know any manager that can manage with the little he gets. Fair enough let him go to Madrid where he would be given a blank cheque. Haha he may have forgotten how to win trophies but he is no fool he is well aware no elite club in europe would tolerate no trophies for two seasons never mind five

Well, we are not Madrid and don't have the same principles, the earlier fans absorb this fact, the less of nooses we'll see out there.

debosky:

The day I accept such mediocrity is the day I stop following Arsenal football club.

Just watch what will happen - the ridiculous thing is expecting Utd and Chelski to get worse.

Apart from Giggs and Scholes, who is getting worse for Utd? Rooney, Nani, Gibson, Carrick, Vidic, Evra, Rafael, Fletcher, Park amongst others will not get worse.

Who will get worse for Chelski? The core of the team - Terry, Cech, Bosingwa, Cole, Essien, Lampard, Drogba will still be there firing next year. Liverpool will do their best to step up, and lets not mention what Citeh will do.

What you have not considered is what each club has done to get to where it is from the last season to this.

Chelsea has basically done nothing to effectively stay where they are (no net spend)
Liverpool has retrogressed by basically doing nothing (1 outgoing player and 1 incoming but no net spend)
Manure has retrogressed by losing a player(CR7) and gaining 3(Obertan, Valencia, Dioug) with a net income in the region of 60m
Arsenal has progressed by losing 2 players and bringing one in with a net income of 30m

Our team is young with the capacity to improve more than the others (which the likes of Song and Bendtner have demonstrated in recent times and no reason to believe the likes of Ramsey and Vela can't do likewise) because overall we have a much younger squad compared to the others and are accepted to currently have the best academy in the PL so what exactly is the basis for pessimism.
They also believe in buying to solve their problems, we believe in bring players through and have a good conveyor belt of talent in place already.

debosky:

In fact we have better talent coming through but we can't beat Spurs who just lost to Portsmouth 3 days earlier after resting for 8 days. We are looking at Utd and saying they regressed because they drew away, but we are 'better' despite losing away.

Its over the entire season and not just the last match against Tottenham, every dog has its day as Tottenham showed after 11 years.

@Debosky
I was just being sarcastic. Who is not sick and tired of Wenger's B.S?
Expecting Utd and Chelsea to get worse is a pipedream! These are both ambitious clubs looking to get better so one would need to be in Disneyland to ignore our faults and hope they get weaker. Arsene should bite the bullet and admit he has failed in this pet project of his that has won us nothing and that would turn us from the Pride to the Laughing stock of London

@Duduspace
Do we wait 50 years too? Wetin concern us with Chelsea? Let Arsenal win common Carling Cup before you juxtapose us with Barca abeg and even they had to buy world class players like Ronnie,Eto'o,Deco,Larsson and Giuly! Chic ain't cheap
We might not have dropped out of the top 4 in 12 years but 7 titles in 13 years is mediocre. Top 8 in Europe? When teams have won it twice since they changed it to the UCL? Is this what we should be toasting to? Alhamdulilahi

The abyss is as a result of a never ending sale of the club's best performers which has seen the club running round a maze like a white rat

Mediocrity is mediocrity dont price it. We competed this season but whats the guarantee we would next season? You talk about improvement or strengthening of our squad

04/05 2nd
05/06 4th
06/07 4th
07/08 3rd
08/09 4th
09/10 2nd or 3rd

With 50% 4th place finishes in 6 seasons what basis do you have to say we are improving and that Wenger's blueprint hasn't failed massively

duduspace:

What you have not considered is what each club has done to get to where it is from the last season to this.

Chelsea has basically done nothing to effectively stay where they are (no net spend)
Liverpool has retrogressed by basically doing nothing (1 outgoing player and 1 incoming but no net spend)
Manure has retrogressed by losing a player(CR7) and gaining 3(Obertan, Valencia, Dioug) with a net income in the region of 60m
Arsenal has progressed by losing 2 players and bringing one in with a net income of 30m

All that is hot air - we have 'progressed' in ONLY one area and retrogressed in the other two - our league position has improved, but our CL and FA cup progress was WORSE. I'm no mathematician, but if you retrogress in two out of three areas, that is a net retrogression!

Our team is young with the capacity to improve more than the others (which the likes of Song and Bendtner have demonstrated in recent times and no reason to believe the likes of Ramsey and Vela can't do likewise) because overall we have a much younger squad compared to the others and are accepted to currently have the best academy in the PL so what exactly is the basis for pessimism.

Absolute bollocks - Nani has IMMENSE capacity to improve, so do Gibson, Anderson, Smalling, Rafael and a whole host of other Utd squad members. If we hope the likes of Vela can improve, Utd have Macheda, Diouf, Welbeck and others they can hope on as well, not to talk of their settled defence with established and battle hardened winners who will still be around for a while to come.

We need to stop fooling ourselves with this 'much younger squad' nonsense - the other clubs are not standing still and the so called advantage we have is a MIRAGE that is used to continually sell the future.

They also believe in buying to solve their problems, we believe in bring players through and have a good conveyor belt of talent in place already.
Its over the entire season and not just the last match against Tottenham, every dog has its day as Tottenham showed after 11 years.

Who are the they?? Was Rafael not ' brought through'? Was Gibson not 'brought through'? Keep trying to console yourself - with regards to young talent, Utd can match anything we have, PLUS having established and experience players who can deliver NOW while imparting all that knowledge to the youngsters.

All we have is a talented group of youngsters STILL LACKING the cutting edge that only experience and rubbing minds with experience can bring. We will continue to stagnate at the rate we are going, except Wenger realises his folly and makes corrections.

duduspace:

What you have not considered is what each club has done to get to where it is from the last season to this.

Chelsea has basically done nothing to effectively stay where they are (no net spend)
Liverpool has retrogressed by basically doing nothing (1 outgoing player and 1 incoming but no net spend)
Manure has retrogressed by losing a player(CR7) and gaining 3(Obertan, Valencia, Dioug) with a net income in the region of 60m
Arsenal has progressed by losing 2 players and bringing one in with a net income of 30m

How have Arsenal progressed with having a net income of 30 milla and United have regressed with a net income of 80 million?
There's something wrong with your math!!!

No matter how you spin it, Wenger needs to buy.
The Barcelona we all admire today have mixed it: They have blended their home-grown talents with the BIG PLAYERS in Europe.

Are you aware Barcelona have spent close to €250 million in the last 3 years?
Trust me, had United or Arsenal done the same, the English media would be screaming how they BOUGHT those titles regardless of the number of kids they promoted from their academy.

~Sauron~:

How have Arsenal progressed with having a net income of 30 milla and United have regressed with a net income of 80 million?
There's something wrong with your math!!!

Of course they've regressed, despite winning a trophy and remaining competitive at the highest level after losing two players that would decimate any other team. Dudu's analysis is not only terribly short sighted, it is aimed to mask the stagnation and regression that has occurred over the past 5 seasons.

Arsenal's 'progress' is a marginally better league finish with the same excuses as last year - only if Fabregas was fit all through, only if Gallas was fit all through, only if Almunia was better, only ifs with no genuine improvement.

No matter how you spin it, Wenger needs to buy.
The Barcelona we all admire today have mixed it: They have blended their home-grown talents with the BIG PLAYERS in Europe.

That is the crux of the matter - Wenger REFUSES to do that, continually hoping on some players who are going to take forever to make it (if they ever make it) or are so past it they shouldn't even be at a club of the caliber of Arsenal.

Are you aware Barcelona have spent close to €250 million in the last 3 years?
Trust me, had United or Arsenal done the same, the English media would be screaming how they BOUGHT those titles regardless of the number of kids they promoted from their academy.

The most frustrating aspect is that we don't even need to spend that much - if we had spent another 10m and brought in Chamakh last year, we might have won the title by scoring in those tough games late January to early February.

If we had spent another 15m on another quality CB, we might have avoided the ridiculous defensive lapses we've seen and done better.

If we had spent 15m and bought a competent goalkeeper, we would've avoided the atrocious gaffes by Almunia this season.

Any one of those moves coupled with what we have at present would've given us a MASSIVE fighting chance - two of those (goalkeeper and striker) would've virtually won us the title.

Yet we sit here talking about improvement - what if these 'young players' take till they are 27 to be ready? Are we supposed to wait for another 5 years hoping they all stay and continue to improve? What will keep our best players around till then?? Dudu keeps talking about 'short term' rewards - a trophy is more long term than you think!!

Without a the repeated trophies at Highbury do you think anyone would take us seriously when we wanted to build the Emirates? Do you think we'd have such a large fan base in the first place without trophies? Financial sustainability is not good, but a lack of trophies will ULTIMATELY wreck that as well - we need to start winning NOW - 5 years in the modern era is a VERY long time.

debosky:

Of course they've regressed, despite winning a trophy and remaining competitive at the highest level after losing two players that would decimate any other team. Dudu's analysis is not only terribly short sighted, it is aimed to mask the stagnation and regression that has occurred over the past 5 seasons.

Arsenal's 'progress' is a marginally better league finish with the same excuses as last year - only if Fabregas was fit all through, only if Gallas was fit all through, only if Almunia was better, only ifs with no genuine improvement.

Duduspace = Eternal Optimist.
He will still see positives if Arsenal relegate.

That is the crux of the matter - Wenger REFUSES to do that, continually hoping on some players who are going to take forever to make it (if they ever make it) or are so past it they shouldn't even be at a club of the caliber of Arsenal.

He shoulda added 3 players in January.
Everyone but him knew when push comes to a shove, Arsenal will have a huge injury list come May.

The most frustrating aspect is that we don't even need to spend that much - if we had spent another 10m and brought in Chamakh last year, we might have won the title by scoring in those tough games late January to early February.
If we had spent another 15m on another quality CB, we might have avoided the ridiculous defensive lapses we've seen and done better.
If we had spent 15m and bought a competent goalkeeper, we would've avoided the atrocious gaffes by Almunia this season.
Any one of those moves coupled with what we have at present would've given us a MASSIVE fighting chance - two of those (goalkeeper and striker) would've virtually won us the title.

I agree. . . . . . .
This season woulda been Arsenal's best chance to win the title cos Chelsea and Man Utd have been horrible.
At a point, Chelsea were leading Arsenal with 11 points and with the right blend of players in the final lap, Arsenal woulda walked it cos you had the easiest run in - but then Arsene knows!

Yet we sit here talking about improvement - what if these 'young players' take till they are 27 to be ready? Are we supposed to wait for another 5 years hoping they all stay and continue to improve? What will keep our best players around till then?? Dudu keeps talking about 'short term' rewards - a trophy is more long term than you think!!

The drawback is. . . . . . .Even the quality players that have been brought through would leave if the barren spell continues.
Every player wants to leave. Had Wenger signed Ronaldo in 2003, he woulda left by now. Some players can't just sit their asses down with barren seasons when they know their quality should be winning titles.

Without a the repeated trophies at Highbury do you think anyone would take us seriously when we wanted to build the Emirates? Do you think we'd have such a large fan base in the first place without trophies? Financial sustainability is not good, but a lack of trophies will ULTIMATELY wreck that as well - we need to start winning NOW - 5 years in the modern era is a VERY long time.

Wenger is a stubborn man. He won't change his so called 'vision' any time soon.
His pride will eventually lead to his downfall. I just hope this takeover will not bring in an owner who would kick Wenger's ass to the curb and sign Advocaat or Rijkaard.

And the conclusion of the matter is this. We have surpassed the expectation of critics and pessimists but have not met our own expectations.

Debosky I know that ireti pipe o ma n mu okan se are, but look at your last statements about the supposed additions we could have made and see how many conjectures you have in there as relates to the results.

Not to compare our team with so and so, infact I know a team who did all those things you have just said and their ambition is what is deemed our failure. You are a reasonable guy, please have some perspective. I know we are all dissappointed as how things turned out, but are we going to all jump in front of a bus because of that?

There was a strong belief in-house that we were good enough for the goods this season. When the season is truly over we will name names and flog with cane, those players who decided to shove their head in their asses when we needed them most.

It is important right now to ensure that the performers in the team are kept, that is step one. We will take it from there.

Well said Slim, what I can't stand is painting things as if we haven't failed.

We have failed - regardless of the nice words dudu and co try to coat it with!

The press don't pay the wages, they don't pick the team and they don't support the players - I don't give a rat's arse about what they think.

One more thing you must note is that this is ARSENAL FC for goodness sake, the third most successful club in the English league and the biggest club in London. Our standards are supposed to be some of the highest - comparing ourselves to the best in the land and not to some rich upstarts who are trying to get by.

I know I've thrown in conjecture, but NO ONE here can say they didn't see the need for another CB in the summer, or another striker in January, Instead, Wenger sold the future saying he might get Chamakh free and that was a better deal? Are we interested in deals or winning?

The repeated failures to do what is necessary is what is getting to me - we are not doing what is patently obvious we need to do, while hoping year after year that we can somehow muddle through? No chance.

We must try to keep the high performers - the best way to keep them is to bring in people they know improve the side. Cesc will not be around for more than one more season if we continue like this - I can guarantee that.

slimshay:

There was a strong belief in-house that we were good enough for the goods this season. When the season is truly over we will name names and flog with cane, those players who decided to shove their head in their asses when we needed them most.

Strong belief? More like hope - HOPING we can just hang in there till we get injured bodies back (knowing we failed to get capable backups and replacements) hoping the replacements would somehow magically become good enough, hoping and hoping till it went flat yet again.

Surpassed expectation?

What was the target for you this season,

Carling cup you were knocked out early, FA cup knocked out early, CL embarassed and with a 10% chance of winning the league

So which of the expectations did you surpass, if anything it was Chelsea who surpassed expectations and probably Man Utd.

Chelseas team has a bunch of 30 yr olds and bought no one so everyone thought they would crash

Man Utd lost CR7 and Tevez and bought no one of note so they were not really a threat like previous season

Liverpool were the team that fell below expectations

No sir Debo, indulge me a story however badly told:

While the headlines had Arsenal dropping out of the top four and various 'no more top four now top three' references, Arsene said he believes we are going to win something this year.

Few games in, that belief showed through massive early results. Infact of the 2 early losses the verdict was that we were good for a win for the scummies and shot ourselves in the foot against the upstarts. All taken together, the captains comments were: everyhting is looking good but we havent won anyhting yet. But we have the hunger and spirit for the fight.

Cue the first fall-off, general opinion 'we told you so'. In house opinion: The leaders will drop point, what we have to do is ensure that when they do we are  suitably placed to pick up the necessaries to close the gap. Results string of wins that virtually cleaned out a wide gap.

Cue the third fall off after the 4 games in 2 weeks, general verdict: Surely not this time, they have been riding their luck its now all over. The leaders' captain even confessed he totally wrote us off. In house verdict: We know we are far off,but we came into the seaosn believing we will win the league this year. Now definitely no one will want it more. Result, we wiped out an 11 point lead.

This are not the chronicles of an 'hoper' and someone riding his luck. We gave it up when it mattered least. We gave it up when we were now expecting to be cruising. And that is my verdict. A set of players without a winner's 'swagger'. Who wouldnt kill Birminghma, Wolves. Who would corner the tinnies and then refuse to pull the trigger until they realised all was lost and then start scrambling.

We didnt lose when we were fighting and down, we lost it when we were expected to be winning it.


On all other matters we are in agreement.

@DK egbon ni won n pe yin o. I thot u understood english?

~Sauron~:

How have Arsenal progressed with having a net income of 30 milla and United have regressed with a net income of 80 million?
There's something wrong with your math!!!

Progress in terms of league your league position which is the truest benchmark of the strength of your squad. Cup competitions do not show strength of your squad as exemplified by Pompey's relegation or would you say Portsmouth is a strong club if they were to beat Chelsea to the FA cup? Manure has dropped 1 place, Chelsea has gained 1, Arsenal has gained 1 while Liverpool has dropped drastically (even if they win the UEFA cup).

debosky:

All that is hot air - we have 'progressed' in ONLY one area and retrogressed in the other two - our league position has improved, but our CL and FA cup progress was WORSE. I'm no mathematician, but if you retrogress in two out of three areas, that is a net retrogression!

Absolute bollocks - Nani has IMMENSE capacity to improve, so do Gibson, Anderson, Smalling, Rafael and a whole host of other Utd squad members. If we hope the likes of Vela can improve, Utd have Macheda, Diouf, Welbeck and others they can hope on as well, not to talk of their settled defence with established and battle hardened winners who will still be around for a while to come.

We need to stop fooling ourselves with this 'much younger squad' nonsense - the other clubs are not standing still and the so called advantage we have is a MIRAGE that is used to continually sell the future.

Who are the they?? Was Rafael not ' brought through'? Was Gibson not 'brought through'? Keep trying to console yourself - with regards to young talent, Utd can match anything we have, PLUS having established and experience players who can deliver NOW while imparting all that knowledge to the youngsters.

All we have is a talented group of youngsters STILL LACKING the cutting edge that only experience and rubbing minds with experience can bring. We will continue to stagnate at the rate we are going, except Wenger realises his folly and makes corrections.

Cup competition are never a true test of strength, a Vidic send off in the final and the entire game could have been different. You only need to look at Pompey this year or Everton in the 1990s when Amokachi was there. Won FA cup and got relegated. The truest indicator of the strength of your squad is your league position. Don't just look at individuals, look at the average age of the squad, I've already given you in an earlier post. And that talented squad gets experience annually. And can I ask you what exactly this group of Manure youngsters have won? Carling Cup? can you post the team list on the day they wond and tell me how many of the youngsters actually played?
Yes Manure brought some players through but also bought the like of Berba for 30m while Arsene has bought the likes of Silvestre for less than 1m, and brought Sol in on a free, you get what you buy and don't even bother asking me why Arsenal didn't buy Berba if you're not ready to donate that 30 m as its got to come from somewhere.

A-40:

@Duduspace
Do we wait 50 years too? Wetin concern us with Chelsea? Let Arsenal win common Carling Cup before you juxtapose us with Barca abeg and even they had to buy world class players like Ronnie,Eto'o,Deco,Larsson and Giuly! Chic ain't cheap
We might not have dropped out of the top 4 in 12 years but 7 titles in 13 years is mediocre. Top 8 in Europe? When teams have won it twice since they changed it to the UCL? Is this what we should be toasting to? Alhamdulilahi

Hence the reason they ran up that 250m+ debt, you can't eat your cake and have it. If you toast Arsenal's success in moving to a new stadium, being financially prudent, developing young players. Then you've got to take the good with the bad. And I don't believe we'll need to wait 50 years, just that 5 seasons is not too long a time in terms of what we're doing.
Also, in the period yu've mentioned we've maintained our level of performance, just take a look at Valencia and Schalke and see what happens to big clubs when they build new stadia.
Arsenal can win a Carling cup if they set that as their goal, you never answered my previous question on making a choice between winning the Carling cup yearly and getting into Europe yearly.

debosky:

Well said Slim, what I can't stand is painting things as if we haven't failed.
We have failed - regardless of the nice words dudu and co try to coat it with!

In terms of winning trophies YES, in the grand scheme of things, NO.

debosky:

One more thing you must note is that this is ARSENAL FC for goodness sake, the third most successful club in the English league and the biggest club in London. Our standards are supposed to be some of the highest - comparing ourselves to the best in the land and not to some rich upstarts who are trying to get by.

This season, we will still at least come 3rd in the league so in a sense we have not lost our position, the biggest club in london? in terms of the fan base YES, in terms of monetary investment in the past 10 years NO.
Comparing ourselves to some rich upstarts (trying to get by? isn't that an oxymoron Debo?) I think not cos we are not competing with them in terms of money we are competing using a different strategy because we've rightly come to the conclusion that it is an unsustainable way to compete. And money does matter, as City have shown in recent times. We should count ourselves lucky we have a manager who is able to compete in a different way.

debosky:

I know I've thrown in conjecture, but NO ONE here can say they didn't see the need for another CB in the summer, or another striker in January, Instead, Wenger sold the future saying he might get Chamakh free and that was a better deal? Are we interested in deals or winning?

The repeated failures to do what is necessary is what is getting to me - we are not doing what is patently obvious we need to do, while hoping year after year that we can somehow muddle through? No chance.

We must try to keep the high performers - the best way to keep them is to bring in people they know improve the side. Cesc will not be around for more than one more season if we continue like this - I can guarantee that.

Actually, I think Cesc will be off after we win a trophy its a bit funny but I think he wants to win something for us. Everything is obvious with hindsight Debo, a new CB aint likely to stop Messi at the camp Nou, neither would a new CB stop Almunia's errors. Overall, we are where we deserve to be based on what we've spent but I see improvement in this team from last season.
We keep the good and improve the obvious lapses to the best of what we can afford (and I trust Arsene enough to get the best deals such as those that brought Vermaelen and Arshavin) and I'll keep on believing in this team until it wins.

debosky:

Without a the repeated trophies at Highbury do you think anyone would take us seriously when we wanted to build the Emirates? Do you think we'd have such a large fan base in the first place without trophies? Financial sustainability is not good, but a lack of trophies will ULTIMATELY wreck that as well - we need to start winning NOW - 5 years in the modern era is a VERY long time.

Yep, long enough to spend yourself into big time trouble if you think you can compete with the big clubs by spending. 5 years is a short time to actualise a youth strategy and keep it going sustainably.

duduspace:

In terms of winning trophies YES, in the grand scheme of things, NO.

What exactly is this 'grand scheme of things'? Our revenue will be reduced because we have missed out on 2 extra CL games and at least one FA cup game - what is this grander scheme?

This season, we will still at least come 3rd in the league so in a sense we have not lost our position, the biggest club in london? in terms of the fan base YES, in terms of monetary investment in the past 10 years NO.

So investment is what makes a club big? Dude stop smoking your 'sustainability' pipe - there are lots of mediocre clubs that manage to remain where they are while being sustainable - that is what we will become if care is not taken.

Comparing ourselves to some rich upstarts (trying to get by? isn't that an oxymoron Debo?) I think not cos we are not competing with them in terms of money we are competing using a different strategy because we've rightly come to the conclusion that it is an unsustainable way to compete. And money does matter, as City have shown in recent times. We should count ourselves lucky we have a manager who is able to compete in a different way.

Our strategy has FAILED - the aim is to win trophies in the end and we have failed - again, talk about other clubs competing 'unsustainably' (whatever that means) while Utd wins 3 league titles in a row - you just don't get it. Your sustainability will get you nowhere without trophies - that is the fact.

Actually, I think Cesc will be off after we win a trophy its a bit funny but I think he wants to win something for us. Everything is obvious with hindsight Debo, a new CB aint likely to stop Messi at the camp Nou, neither would a new CB stop Almunia's errors. Overall, we are where we deserve to be based on what we've spent but I see improvement in this team from last season.

I don't know what you're going on about - ONE of those solutions would have improved our league position, your much vaunted standard of progress. Yet you fail to see that, harping on about some sustainability nonsense. Keeping wastepipes of players who turn away fans cannot sustain anything.

We keep the good and improve the obvious lapses to the best of what we can afford (and I trust Arsene enough to get the best deals) and I'll keep on believing in this team until it wins.

Keep believing forever - without a CHANGE in approach, we will remain nearly there in perpetuity. There is too much mediocrity at this club, and people thinking like you are encouraging it. Let's lower our standards because we aren't spending like Chelski. Despite Chelski's spending, Utd came back and won league THREE league titles in a row without breaking the bank. Yet we are here talking about being sustainable.

duduspace:

Yep, long enough to spend yourself into big time trouble if you think you can compete with the big clubs by spending. 5 years is a short time to actualise a youth strategy and keep it going sustainably.

Who is talking about spending yourself into trouble? How much did it cost City to get Given?? Take off your blinkers and stop talking like an automaton. How much would it have cost to get another Vermaelen last summer? Another 15m? Is that what would spend us into trouble?

No one is saying JUST spend, you need to SPEND and BLEND - NO ONE, I repeat NO ONE will win by 'growing' players alone. NO ONE.

@Apostle Duduspace
They ran into 250m debt but have won 2 UCL's and 3 la liga titles in our trophyless span. If 250m debt would win us 2 UCL's and 3 EPL titles then lets go and borrow some more money. You keep talking about player development but Cesc Fabregas is the only world class player Wenger has developed in 5 years.
And what makes you even think we can't be another Valencia or Schalke if we keep losing key players who leave out of frustration

We can win the CC if we want to but Wenger has never won it since he came to England! Let us set the Carling cup as our goal first cos never in the history of niggerdom have i seen a choosy beggar! Man U did it in 06 and it gave them the umph to vie for bigger titles
Carling Cup is better than Emirates Cup! So if you are not tired of Emirates Cup i am!

To answer your question i would take Europe. So riddle me this. . . Is there a rule that automatically disqualifies you from playing in Europe if you win the CC? Can't we win a cup and still finish in the top 4? Are we that whack?

A-40:

Carling Cup is better than Emirates Cup! So if you are not tired of Emirates Cup i am!

Priceless!!!

Yep, long enough to spend yourself into big time trouble if you think you can compete with the big clubs by spending. 5 years is a short time to actualise a youth strategy and keep it going sustainably.

What youth program exactly are you talking about.

In Arsenals first 11 Almunia, Sagna, TV5, Gallas, Van persie, Arshavin, Nasri, Denilson, are not from your academy so what youth program exactly? Justin Hoyte, ALiadiere, Owusu-Abeyie, or which youths exactly.

The same youth fraud that WenGAY has fed you for years. Where are the youths of yesteryears I mean the youth of 2006, 2005 Djourou, Senderos, Lupoli, Muamba etc Dont they ever grow up??

Let Dudu keep talking about Valencia and Shalke - how many la ligas has Valencia won to compare them to Arsenal?? How many Bundesliga titles have Shalke won to compare them to Arsenal??

Compare us to Bayern, who moved and are yet competing at the highest level.

The stadium excuse is getting OLD very FAST - the stadium was supposed to help the club compete, not become the newest ready made excuse for coming up short.

.

A-40:

@Apostle Duduspace
They ran into 250m debt but have won 2 UCL's and 3 la liga titles in our trophyless span. If 250m debt would win us 2 UCL's and 3 EPL titles then lets go and borrow some more money. You keep talking about player development but Cesc Fabregas is the only world class player Wenger has developed in 5 years.
And what makes you even think we can't be another Valencia or Schalke if we keep losing key players who leave out of frustration

Have you seen any academy that turns out World class players every year? all the players we turn out play for their countries, they may not all be Messi class players but then there is a reason why there is only one World footballer of the year.

How many of our players have actually left and gone on to better things? more precisely how many of our players have actually said they left out of frustration We cannot be another Valencia because we are paying off our debts while they were struggling to pay player's salaries.

A-40:

We can win the CC if we want to but Wenger has never won it since he came to England! Let us set the Carling cup as our goal first cos never in the history of niggerdom have i seen a choosy beggar! Man U did it in 06 and it gave them the umph to vie for bigger titles
Carling Cup is better than Emirates Cup! So if you are not tired of Emirates Cup i am.

To answer your question i would take Europe. So riddle me this. . . Is there a rule that automatically disqualifies you from playing in Europe if you win the CC? Can't we win a cup and still finish in the top 4? Are we that whack?

Yes, the 2 are not mutually exclusive but the only 2 clubs who have succeeded in doing the 2 in recent history are Manure and Chelsea who outspend us whether you believe it or not. I am as frustrated as you are at not winning only difference is I don't throw the baby out with the bath water and I face the reality of our situation.

dayokanu:

What youth program exactly are you talking about.

In Arsenals first 11 Almunia, Sagna, TV5, Gallas, Van persie, Arshavin, Nasri, Denilson, are not from your academy so what youth program exactly? Justin Hoyte, ALiadiere, Owusu-Abeyie, or which youths exactly.

The same youth fraud that WenGAY has fed you for years. Where are the youths of yesteryears I mean the youth of 2006, 2005 Djourou, Senderos, Lupoli, Muamba etc Dont they ever grow up??

Why the magomago of considering the first team when you know very well a lot of those 1st teamers had extended time out to injury?

RVP came to Arsenal at 21
Diaby came to Arsenal at 19
Denilson came to Arsenal at 18 (still U23)
Cesc, Theo, Bendtner, Clichy, Song,  (all in our first team came to Arsenal U17 years old and bar Clicy are still U23)
Ramsey, Traore, Djorou, Merida, Vela, Gibbs (all squad members and regularly on the bench came to Arsenal U17 and bar Djorou are still U21)

That is 14 members of a squad of about 22 players who came to Arsenal 21 years and younger.

If that is not a youth policy I wonder what is? maybe we are supposed to be snatching babies from their mothers perhaps? now that would be in true Nazi fashion.

RvP is now a product of Arsenal youth program? Are you guys so desperate to claim whats not yours?

OK Henry and Kanu are also youth products since they came in at 21

dayokanu:

RvP is now a product of Arsenal youth program? Are you guys so desperate to claim whats not yours?

OK Henry and Kanu are also youth products since they came in at 21

I was responding to your response about a "Youth Program", or what exactly is your definition of a youth program? have you seen a top class team playing a team consisting of all U20s before?
I only gave you a list of our players and the ages at which they arrived to show you that we get players at very young ages and give them the opportunity to progress into our team. I never claimed anyone.
Overall when you look at the ages of Arsenal's first team players and the ages at which they arrived at Arsenal, then only someone hiding from the truth like yourself would say that Arsenal doesn't have a youth policy.
Our team is made of up of predominantly young players who arrived young and moved through the ranks and that is what a youth policy means as opposed to the galacticos policy of buying the world's best at their peak.

@Apostle Duduspace
I thought we where trying to copy Ajax & Barca? An academy that can only produce one world class player in five years is a waste! If a university provided just one first class graduate once every five years that university would have all its academic staff fired! By the way how many of these so-called players play key roles for their countries?
So since those players have not gone on to better things have we actually gone on to win $hit? No player would come out to tell you ho-ha that they left a club out of frustration so keep looking for English instead of Body Language! When we lost Henry,A.Cole and Hleb would you have needed Haitian voodoo to tell you they where tired of the setup? By the way Fabregas,Gallas & Arshavin are other players with varying degrees of disgruntlement presently. The quiet players are either those that just arrived,the parts of the disease or the ones that know they would not be in the reserves of any other big team in Europe

We can join those two if we take the competition serious! I cringe in disgust when some of us look down on certain cups! a team winless in 5 seasons has not earned the right to do that. The outspent thing is just an excuse it does not justify 5 seasons of winning none in 20 tries and 3 seasons without even reaching a Final. I won't join you to endorse mediocrity

A-40:

@Apostle Duduspace
I thought we where trying to copy Ajax & Barca? An academy that can only produce one world class player in five years is a waste! If a university provided just one first class graduate once every five years that university would have all its academic staff fired! By the way how many of these so-called players play key roles for their countries?

Bendtner is the main striker for Denmark and played every game of their world cup qualification and got a lot of goals too, Alex Song is a main man in Cameroon's squad and Cesc is a major player for spain, Aaron Ramsey is the best talent in Wales since Gigg's and is the fulcrum of the emerging welsh national team.

A-40:

We can join those two if we take the competition serious! I cringe in disgust when some of us look down on certain cups! a team winless in 5 seasons has not earned the right to do that. The outspent thing is just an excuse it does not justify 5 seasons of winning none in 20 tries and 3 seasons without even reaching a Final. I won't join you to endorse mediocrity

I don't only believe we can join them, I believe we will join them in time, our youth policy has fallen short again but with the improvements I see there is no reason why we should fall short next season. The general strength in depth of the club has grown because we have exposed our youngsters early.
You don't need to endorse anything, you only need to face up to the reality of Arsenal.
1. We don't have a sugar daddy (and I personally don't even want one)
2. We don't spend as much as the other big clubs (and I also don't want us to cos it isn't sustainable)
3. We have gone for a policy that requires time to bear fruit, I see a steady progress that tells me bear fruit it shall and I'm willing to wait for this.

Frankly speaking, I don't think anyone (Arsene included) looks down on any Cup, all cups are there to be won. There is however something called priority and all the cups come after The League and the UCL (in that order of priority).

I never thought the day would come I'll be rooting for the Spuds, if they can just go ahead and do the unthinkable to keep City out of the Top 4 for one more season, that would prevent real quality player from joining City yet again due to lack of UCL participation. That is some serious bad belle for city and I hope none of their fans are reading this. 
They could also help us stall Manure's title challenge as they'll likely do to Chelsea today.