JeSoul:

 Is "measuring church growth" a part of the great commission? when did Jesus or any of the apostles ever have the need to count how many followers they had?

by measuring growth . . . I refer to the great commission itself. . . . .which is to continuously make disciples.

actually that trend has become the norm rather than the exception. It is sad. My question to you is why remain in the local church if it is not a biblically functioning one?

Honestly, I do as the spirit directs. I have no loyalty to any church. There was a time I was asked to worship at KICC for a while . . . .while I disliked the way every sermon was ended with a demand for "seed" , , .God would always tell me to shut up and just listen to the message. I was recently told not to go there again.

davidylan:

Even in the early church there were some like Hymenaeus and Alexander whom Paul wanted to personally deliver to satan for teaching heresies.

u just touched a rare spot.
Paul was an exemplary rare xtian who never cared whose ox was gored. If such was to be done today what would the world label it . . . .fundamentalism?

noetic16:

u just touched a rare spot.
Paul was an exemplary rare xtian who never cared whose ox was gored. If such was to be done today what would the world label it . .  . .fundamentalism?

lol they already label it as being biased, narrow minded, extremist, fundamentalist, intolerant, discriminatory, judgmental . . . you name it.

Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

In China where there is intense persecution, the church meets in houses (House Fellowships).

davidylan:

lol they already label it as being biased, narrow minded, extremist, fundamentalist, intolerant, discriminatory, judgmental . . . you name it.

sounds familiar , .  ,

noetic16:

by measuring growth . . . I refer to the great commission itself. . . . .which is to continuously make disciples.

 Cool. So I contend the church should not be concerning herself with "how many people have been converted" but rather preaching the undiluted gospel and those who will be saved, will be saved.

 I personally immensely dislike when I hear an evangelist or preacher declare (usually pridefully) that "1000 people gave their lives to Christ" at this crusade or "350 teenagers made a commitment to Jesus" at the altar call etc . . . is the evangelist God? how does he know if those people are truly saved? I think when churches throw out these numbers they do so to "make themselves feel good" and say "see, our church is growing" - when it shouldn't be about that at all.

Honestly, I do as the spirit directs. I have no loyalty to any church. There was a time I was asked to worship at KICC for a while . . . .while I disliked the way every sermon was ended with a demand for "seed" , , .God would always tell me to shut up and just listen to the message. I was recently told not to go there again.

Forgive the prodding. But do you have a group of believers that can hold you accountable? Iron sharpens iron. You need to be grounded or rooted in a fellowship of brethen, that you love and serve and build-up, and they love and serve and build you up too. That's the purpose of church.

---

aletheia:

Rom 16:5 Likewise greet the church that is in their house. Salute my wellbeloved Epaenetus, who is the firstfruits of Achaia unto Christ.

^ one of many examples of house churches in the NT.

noetic16:

sounds familiar , .  ,

We need look no further than this section . . .

JeSoul:

Forgive the prodding. But do you have a group of believers that can hold you accountable? Iron sharpens iron. [b]You need to be grounded or rooted in a fellowship of brethen, that you love and serve and build-up, and they love and serve and build you up too. That's the purpose of church.

Gbam! There is no better way to put it than this. Some call it accountability partners. you are far less likely to backslide if you have a group of genuine believers around you.

JeSoul:

   I personally immensely dislike when I hear an evangelist or preacher declare (usually pridefully) that "1000 people gave their lives to Christ" at this crusade or "350 teenagers made a commitment to Jesus" at the altar call etc . . . is the evangelist God? how does he know if those people are truly saved? I think when churches throw out these numbers they do so to "make themselves feel good" and say "see, our church is growing" - when it shouldn't be about that at all.

So true. I am sure KunleOshob will do justice to this aspect of the discourse.

Forgive the prodding. But do you have a group of believers that can hold you accountable? Iron sharpens iron. You need to be grounded or rooted in a fellowship of brethen, that you love and serve and build-up, and they love and serve and build you up too. That's the purpose of church.

unfortunately I dont.

Oh dear . . .    David especially, I won't be responsible for any strokes or heart attacks you may suffer as a result of this next article:


Church offers a worship alternative for Cowboys

WENDELL -- The floor is covered in sawdust, the seats are lawn chairs, and the fragrant smells of livestock are in the air.

Magnolia Cowboy Church isn't your average place of worship. The church, which meets in a horse barn just across the Johnston County line from Wendell, is geared toward folks who don't feel comfortable getting dressed up for church on Sunday mornings. In fact, the church holds services on Monday evenings. "Cowboy church is really for the unchurched," said Ronnie Richardson, who hadn't been to church in 20 years before he joined Magnolia. "A lot of people, they feel funny going to a regular church."

Magnolia offers a low-key service, with hymns led by two men strumming guitars and the congregation singing along softly. Prayers are the only time hats come off, and church members feel at ease sharing praises for events like the birth of a colt or prayer requests for friends in need. "It's more like a family," Steve Bullock said, noting that he was a nonbeliever for years. "I feel very comfortable in this church."

Though the church is affiliated with the Johnston County Baptist Association and the message comes straight from the Bible, Pastor Danny Blackburn and lay preachers try to make the lessons more relevant to horse lovers. The church held an Easter sunrise service on Sunday, but its regular Monday evening services are a nod toward those who spend weekends at horse shows and rodeos. Last week, Blackburn preached about Jesus' arrival in Jerusalem on Palm Sunday. But the sermon focused heavily on the meaning of Jesus' mode of transportation - a borrowed donkey.

"A horse is a war transporter, but coming in on a donkey, that was coming in peace," Blackburn told the congregation as he stood behind the makeshift wooden pulpit, sporting a cowboy hat and plaid shirt. "Riding on a donkey was a way to proclaim himself king." And equines aren't just talked about at Magnolia - sometimes they even attend the services. Earlier this month, Blackburn brought his horse along and preached from the saddle. The church got started almost four years ago.

Founder Chris Brancheau had heard about the cowboy church movement, which has numerous affiliates around the state and country, and wanted to have a local ministry for "horse people," she said. An acquaintance told her about Frances Henderson's Magnolia Plantation Horse Farm. Brancheau knew immediately that the name was a sign. The services started meeting amid the horse stalls, but that got to be cold in winter, so they built the walls of a chapel in one corner of the barn. Henderson was supportive of the project but had no interest in attending. "She said, 'You can meet here, but don't expect me to come,'" Brancheau recalled. These days, Henderson is one of the church's most active members. She's one of many who've been brought back to religion through Cowboy Church, and many don't even own horses or farm.

"There are people in here whose lives are definitely changed," Brancheau said.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/04/05/421792/this-barn-is-sacred.html

---

One has to wonder . . . are they worshipping God or their horses?

noetic16:

So true. I am sure KunleOshob will do justice to this aspect of the discourse.

Hehe, he will be here soon.

unfortunately I dont.

Then pray and actively seek for it. And I'm sure David would be willing to straighten you up should the situation arise lol. But honestly, I don't know how I would do without my family of believers, we're so close and do so much for each other. Until you have that, you'll be missing a very blessed and necessary aspect of the walk.

The services started meeting amid the horse stalls, but that got to be cold in winter, so they built the walls of a chapel in one corner of the barn. Henderson was supportive of the project but had no interest in attending. "She said, 'You can meet here, but don't expect me to come,'" Brancheau recalled. These days, Henderson is one of the church's most active members. She's one of many who've been brought back to religion through Cowboy Church, and many don't even own horses or farm.

Herein lies the problem. to these people . . . the gospel of Christ has simply become a religious watering hole for the GOP faithful. We are not told that Henderson started coming to church because she got saved, instead we are told she has become an "active" member . . . as if activity itself were the passport to heaven.

Quite sad that we have thrown God out of the equation in our bid to make "church" more appealing to the unsaved.

davidylan:

We need look no further than this section . . .  

Gbam! There is no better way to put it than this. Some call it accountability partners. you are far less likely to backslide if you have a group of genuine believers around you.

Seeking out a bunch of true believers is HARD. My not being in a fellowship is strengthened IMO by prophecy and the HS. . . . that while going through that which I go through. . . . there is a prophetic word that has decreed the end . . . .and the continuous counsel of the HS.

While I would love the company of true believers. . . .I however dont think I would grown as much as did in the company of anyone.

JeSoul:

 Cool. So I contend the church should not be concerning herself with "how many people have been converted" but rather preaching the undiluted gospel and those who will be saved, will be saved.

 I personally immensely dislike when I hear an evangelist or preacher declare (usually pridefully) that "1000 people gave their lives to Christ" at this crusade or "350 teenagers made a commitment to Jesus" at the altar call etc . . . is the evangelist God? how does he know if those people are truly saved? I think when churches throw out these numbers they do so to "make themselves feel good" and say "see, our church is growing" - when it shouldn't be about that at all. . . .

I really like this post and agree with the important point being made. It of course also ties with what it really means to be "born again" as opposed to "decisionism" -- but I run the risk of digression.

On the main topic, I think a lot of good points have already been made. Ideally, our regular or frequently recurrent, e.g. weekly, fellowship should consist of a relatively small group where basically everyone knows everyone and people can be comfortable and reasonably open with each other. Also, seeing each other's need people can support one another both materially and spiritually. On the other hand, firstly it is a good idea to occasionally meet with a wider part of the universal or "catholic" body. Secondly, the reality of modern living has to be acknowledged and it may be that for various reasons meeting, i.e. regular fellowship, in a relatively larger body is either unavoidable or even desirable in one's particular circumstances.

In any assembly, be it of two persons or 1 million, there will not be one single person who is perfect. No not your pope, not your arch-bishop, not your "G.O.", not your "senior pastor" etc. However, the mega-church structure is particularly inadvisable. It essentially becomes an organisation; an organisation needs to be maintained; maintenance needs money; money often breeds corruption. The result is megalomaniacs, some of whom might have started with genuine intentions, but who turn to false doctrine, deception and even outright fraud to maintain both their organisation and their own megalomania.

Also, the mega-church structure tends to breed shallow Christians poor on doctrine but more focused on the organisation; their pride is in having a megalomaniac, the largest auditorium, the largest gatherings etc etc etc.

noetic16:

Seeking out a bunch of true believers is HARD. My not being in a fellowship is strengthened IMO by prophecy and the HS. . . . that while going through that which I go through. . . . there is a prophetic word that has decreed the end . . . .and the continuous counsel of the HS.

While I would love the company of true believers. . . .I however dont think I would grown as much as did in the company of anyone.

Believe me, you grow much much faster with a body of like-minded believers who you can share experiences with. I dont have such a group presently but i know how exciting it was just looking forward to our bible study meetings. I never dug into my bible as much as i did then.

JeSoul:

Hehe, he will be here soon.

Then pray and actively seek for it. And I'm sure David would be willing to straighten you up should the situation arise lol. But honestly, I don't know how I would do without my family of believers, we're so close and do so much for each other. Until you have that, you'll be missing a very blessed and necessary aspect of the walk.

I do envy u though. . . . .if truly u are in the company of TRUE believers.

Enigma:

. . .It of course also ties with what it really means to be "born again" as opposed to "decisionism" -- but I run the risk of digression.

Would be nice to discuss this on a new thread.

^^^ I second this motion, if Enigma is willing to take the lead on it.

There is a clear misconception here - As far as I'm concerned, there is no limit to how large a 'single congregation' or 'church' must be - that is my biblical interpretation.

Jesus often ministered to crowds as the feeding of the 5,000 amongst others demonstrated, so that cannot suddenly be 'too large' now if Jesus did so thousands of years ago, with no PA systems and all the other good stuff. The fact that house churches were the beginnings of the early church did not make them the sole means of meeting together. The disciples went to the synagogues and ministered, and I'm sure they were not a mere handful.

To those who dislike 'large' number of people giving their lives, if 3,000 people gave their lives after hearing Peter's message, I see nothing wrong (in principle) with large soul harvests today, if done in the right spirit.

However, there is a need for a smaller sub-unit where the close knit fellowship is fostered and allowed to develop. This is what must form the building blocks of any healthy church, no matter how large - the smaller units, be they sunday school classes, home fellowships, etc, must function to develop the close knit ties between believers that is necessary.

There is no one 'universal' size requirement for churches. Often this depends on the needs of the person involved and what his/her fellowship needs are. If I for example have Christian friends who I meet with often enough in a smaller group and have good fellowship, I might not have a problem going to a 'mega church' where I have a great worship experience and which meets my need to be part of a bigger group.

Some others want that close knit feeling all the time and it is essential to them to always feel 'connected'. Given the wide variety of individual characteristics, one mode of church gatherings can never meet the needs of everyone. As long as the basics are present, people will gravitate the the structure they are either most familiar with or that which best meets their needs.

davidylan:

^^^ I second this motion, if Enigma is willing to take the lead on it.

OK I will do it in a moment with a hopefully simple post. Above all I really hope it will be left to Christians, including brethren in WoF to whom I'm often harsh, BUT left alone by all these Moslem and atheist time-wasters!

Enigma:

OK I will do it in a moment with a hopefully simple post. Above all I really hope it will be left to Christians, including brethren in WoF to whom I'm often harsh, BUT left alone by all these Moslem and atheist time-wasters!

May the Lord help us.

debosky:

However, there is a need for a smaller sub-unit where the close knit fellowship is fostered and allowed to develop. This is what must form the building blocks of any healthy church, no matter how large - the smaller units, be they sunday school classes, home fellowships, etc, must function to develop the close knit ties between believers that is necessary.

You have just stated JeSoul's main point. I guess a lot of churches are afraid to do this either because they have become too large and there is now an added logistical problem of getting everyone into small group fellowships. It makes me question one thing - what is the major incentive for making churches so large? Money or souls?

You mention that Christ preached to 5000 at once . . . but this was more like a one-off. Christ was not moving around with 5000 all day and fretting about adding to that size. Christ was just as comfortable with the 5000 as He was with His little band of 12. Infact it was this 12 that got the REAL meaning of His numerous parables. Yes Christ physically fed 5000, but there was no better spiritual feeding than what the 12 got.

You also mention the 3000 giving their lives to Christ . . . there is a huge difference between what happened in Acts 2 and what we see today. Like Enigma said . . . it is NOT really evidence of genuine salvation as much as it is a generic, emotional appeal to temporary remorse. You are not saved by merely reciting a 5 sec prayer that did not come from your heart and has very little meaning to you.

A careful read of Acts 2 explains this better . . . Peter NEVER made an altar call, he never begged the folks to repent, he didnt need to scare them with hell fire . . . rather it was the people who were "pricked in their heart" and who personally begged the disciples . . . Men and brethren, what shall we do?

It was after this personal plea that Peter eventually mentioned the words . . . Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Until there is a personal heartfelt conviction, you cannot beg/cajole folks with a sweet tongue, force them to recite empty slogans at the altar and pronounce them saved.

Enigma:


In any assembly, be it of two persons or 1 million, there will not be one single person who is perfect. No not your pope, not your arch-bishop, not your "G.O.", not your "senior pastor" etc. However, the mega-church structure is particularly inadvisable. It essentially becomes an organisation; an organisation needs to be maintained; maintenance needs money; money often breeds corruption. The result is megalomaniacs, some of whom might have started with genuine intentions, but who turn to false doctrine, deception and even outright fraud to maintain both their organisation and their own megalomania.

Also, the mega-church structure tends to breed shallow Christians poor on doctrine but more focused on the organisation; their pride is in having a megalomaniac, the largest auditorium, the largest gatherings etc etc etc.

Very interesting analysis. It actually explains a lot of problems we have in the church today.

aletheia:

Would be nice to discuss this on a new thread.

davidylan:

^^^ I second this motion, if Enigma is willing to take the lead on it.

Enigma:

OK I will do it in a moment with a hopefully simple post. Above all I really hope it will be left to Christians, including brethren in WoF to whom I'm often harsh, BUT left alone by all these Moslem and atheist time-wasters!

Apologies folks; in hindsight, I realise that I should have placed a notice here that I had started the thread. This is the link: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-429416.0.html

noetic16:

So true. I am sure KunleOshob will do justice to this aspect of the discourse.

+Jesoul
I see you guys have been taking pot shots at me in my absence  , sorry to disappoint you i have no comments on that "aspect of the discourse".

davidylan:

this is precisely JeSoul's point . . . how can i be my brothers keeper when i dont even know my brother?

There is no guarantee that you will not have similar issues with smaller gatherings. You could even have class issues here. What stop a gathering of well-to-dos from excluding the very poor from sharing in their expensive wines and food. There is the risk that such gathering could even metamorphose into social/political/business clubs where deals are finalized.

Enigma:

On the main topic, I think a lot of good points have already been made. Ideally, our regular or frequently recurrent, e.g. weekly, fellowship should consist of a relatively small group where basically everyone knows everyone and people can be comfortable and reasonably open with each other. Also, seeing each other's need people can support one another both materially and spiritually. On the other hand, firstly it is a good idea to occasionally meet with a wider part of the universal or "catholic" body. Secondly, the reality of modern living has to be acknowledged and it may be that for various reasons meeting, i.e. regular fellowship, in a relatively larger body is either unavoidable or even desirable in one's particular circumstances.

debosky:

There is no one 'universal' size requirement for churches. Often this depends on the needs of the person involved and what his/her fellowship needs are. If I for example have Christian friends who I meet with often enough in a smaller group and have good fellowship, I might not have a problem going to a 'mega church' where I have a great worship experience and which meets my need to be part of a bigger group.

debosky:

However, there is a need for a smaller sub-unit where the close knit fellowship is fostered and allowed to develop. This is what must form the building blocks of any healthy church, no matter how large - the smaller units, be they sunday school classes, home fellowships, etc, must function to develop the close knit ties between believers that is necessary.

I agree with noetic16, Enigma and debosky, bigger size churhes are unavoidable.

davidylan:

It makes me question one thing - what is the major incentive for making churches so large? Money or souls?

Money, Power/Influence, my church is bigger than yours metality Definitely not for the souls.

Zikkyy:

Money, Power/Influence, my church is bigger than yours metality Definitely not for the souls.

I think folks have forgotten the "many are called, few are chosen" admonition, the only way a "Church" grows real fast is to water down the true teaching for the MOST part, what is the point of going to a Church and your soul doesn't benefit?

Some Pastors have turned the "Church" into a kalo kalo business, the bigger and shinier the hall is, the more customers you attract.

Zikkyy:

There is no guarantee that you will not have similar issues with smaller gatherings. You could even have class issues here. What stop a gathering of well-to-dos from excluding the very poor from sharing in their expensive wines and food. There is the risk that such gathering could even metamorphose into social/political/business clubs where deals are finalized.

Indeed there isn't as we already see even the early church had many many issues. As long as we're human beings, we will fall short. But I hold that in a smaller group where the people know, care for and love each other truly, there'll be far less incidences of such.

davidylan:
It makes me question one thing - what is the major incentive for making churches so large? Money or souls?

Zikkyy:

Money, Power/Influence, my church is bigger than yours metality Definitely not for the souls.

Gbam left right and center. We all know the vast majority of them are in competition with one another.

ogajim:
Some Pastors have turned the "Church" into a kalo kalo business, the bigger and shinier the hall is, the more customers you attract.

This is unfortunately true. If you use glitter to get them there, you'll have to keep using glitter to keep them there.

The bible says, where there are 2 or more people, The Lord is there to give answers to our prayers, so it is not about how big or how small.
As long as regardless of how big, the word of God is still being preached and people are not lost in the crowd.
As long as it is not too small as well for people to lose sight of what matters.

another poor attempt at disparaging the church?

pathetic!

Ben-10:

Churches are meant to be Large.

Can you prove this biblically?

Ben-10:

Growth is the original purpose of the church.

Not quite, you're mixing two things.
Fellowship, communion, building and serving each other - is the purpose of church. Church is meant for christians - not the unsaved. Making disciples of all nations is the great commission of individual christians not "churches".

opata:

another poor attempt at disparaging the church?

pathetic!

I am sure u did not take time to read through the thread. both sides of the debate did NOT attempt to disparage or ridicule the church.