@ Dudu

Get it right - I am not interested in TALKING about money that remains in the bank - it is POINTLESS since your board is content to hoard it and not spend to reinforce the squad.

I will be interested when the manager shows genuine intent to SPEND money to fix our obvious flaws. I refuse to go through all the things I’ve said again, so I’ll try a different approach

Let me use an analogy to explain it to you

Consider an ill child is in need of urgent medical treatment and the parents refuse to spend money they have in the bank to treat the child. If the child dies, then their money in the bank might as well not be there because it wasn’t used to save the child’s life.

Of course spending isn't the ONLY issue, but it is the only viable choice to fix the flaws Wenger's coaching has obviously failed to remedy.

chic2pimp:

Oh really? You must be in cloud cuckoo land if you actaully think Cesc would be satistified with yet another trophyless campaign come the end of the season.

If he is as disatisfied as you claim, why is he still here? why didn't he do a Mascherano?

debosky:


Consider an ill child is in need of urgent medical treatment and the parents refuse to spend money they have in the bank to treat the child. If the child dies, then their money in the bank might as well not be there because it wasn’t used to save the child’s life.
Of course spending isn't the ONLY issue, but it is the only viable choice to fix the flaws Wenger's coaching has obviously failed to remedy.

I love this analogy to bits and I'll build on it, what if the parents know they can't afford the money for a full dose of curative medicine, and decide to go for immunisation (which has some initial side effects of malaise and headache so the child can't go to play with his friends) but would immunise the child for like 10 - 20 years? its all about long term thinking.

A-40:


@Duduspace
Tell your paddy to pay attention to defensive details jare! Do we wait till we are like Liverpool before we change?
Na now u dey talk about facing reality why did you not do that when we where facing reality at the start of the season
I was commenting on a 19year old Boyata making Drogba look like Junior Agogo before the Chelsea match that should tell you how mentally frail the team is
Its Wenger's duty to psyche them up not mine and if he fails to do that then he deserves all the disses he gets afterall he would get the credits if they go on to win

I get your point about the defensive side of our game, these boys have to grow up fast in that regards, its the MF particularly where this fails and I place the blame firmly on our MF and 2 WFs Nasri and Arshavin, it is only in the past 2 seasons that Chelsea and Manure have started this thumping scorelines they always had the edge over us due to the quality of their squads but we still got the occasional win like 08/09 when we beat both of them, I hope I've seen the last of it, these players should be angry when they take to the pitch against these guys by now.

I've always faced reality about this team unfortunately its most other Arsenal fans who don't see it or have closed their eyes to it when the signs are clearly evident. This team has to GROW to win, it is a project the board and the manager are commited to, you can have your misgivings about it but clearly the way liverpool have gone convinces me its the right way. So many clubs we started out about the same level or those touted to overtake us have fallen by the way side since Arsene's arrival (Tottenham, Aston Villa and now Liverpool), the ones who have outperformed us have spent massively to do so and have always been at the top end. At the end of the day colour it how you will but beggars aint choosers.

duduspace:

I love this analogy to bits and I'll build on it, what if the parents know they can't afford the money for a full dose of curative medicine, and decide to go for immunisation (which has some initial side effects of malaise and headache so the child can't go to play with his friends) but would immunise the child for like 10 - 20 years? its all about long term thinking.

Instead of giving the child fthe full range of immunization, they skimp off and give only say 3 out of the 5 shots required, the child ends up falling ill regardless, rendering the immunization the child did receive virtually useless.

To put in in simple terms, Wenger is failing to complete the work he started, which ends up ruining the entire exercise while a small additional expenditure would be sufficient to take the team over the line.

duduspace:

I get your point about the defensive side of our game, these boys have to grow up fast in that regards, its the MF particularly where this fails and I place the blame firmly on our MF and 2 WFs Nasri and Arshavin, it is only in the past 2 seasons that Chelsea and Manure have started this thumping scorelines they always had the edge over us due to the quality of their squads but we still got the occasional win like 08/09 when we beat both of them, I hope I've seen the last of it, these players should be angry when they take to the pitch against these guys by now.

I've always faced reality about this team unfortunately its most other Arsenal fans who don't see it or have closed their eyes to it when the signs are clearly evident. This team has to GROW to win, it is a project the board and the manager are commited to, you can have your misgivings about it but clearly the way liverpool have gone convinces me its the right way. So many clubs we started out about the same level or those touted to overtake us have fallen by the way side since Arsene's arrival (Tottenham, Aston Villa and now Liverpool), the ones who have outperformed us have spent massively to do so and have always been at the top end. At the end of the day colour it how you will but beggars aint choosers.

The boys cannot 'grow' if they are not fed. Is Wenger coaching them to improve? We've seen strikers and midfielders improve, but rarely if ever do defenders get better at Arsenal and that is a damning indictment of Wenger's managerial ability in this area.

This is why it is even more important to buy established players in defensive positions to cover up for Wenger's coaching deficiencies. He has shown that he is incapable of coaching CBs and GKs especially, and should simply bite the bullet and buy quality personnel in those positions.

No offence to Koko, Skills and Djourou, but their performances have hardly filled me with confidence. Only Vermaelen so far stands out as a quality buy. We already know the GK story all too well.

And please enough of the backhand references to Liverpool - their issues are NOT our issues. Buying players didn’t get them in trouble; it was the loans the owners took out to buy the club and lack of proper management of the impacts.

We on the other hand are refusing to fix obvious problems in the side after getting the financials right. Money is a means to an end. . . . . it seems the board has forgotten that and think making profit is the end by itself.

Debo is now admitting what I told him 2 years ago, namely that AW's early success was built of George Grahams defence.

Na wa o. Ibime's statement. . . . . . . .not far from the truth o.

debosky:

And please enough of the backhand references to Liverpool - their issues are NOT our issues. Buying players didn’t get them in trouble; it was the loans the owners took out to buy the club and lack of proper management of the impacts. We on the other hand are refusing to fix obvious problems in the side after getting the financials right. Money is a means to an end. . . . . it seems the board has forgotten that and think making profit is the end by itself.

This is so untrue, apart from the 237 they borrowed to buy, they have since injected 144m into the club for player purchases mostly. It is confirmed that they stand to lose that amount if Pool is sold for 300m as has been agreed now, just read the Q&A I posted on Liverpools thread which gives the true state of things.

Not everyone has the power to write of milla like Abramovic, abeg Debo don't get it twisted. There is a lot being hidden in those accounts, its only when kasala bursts you get to hear about it, why do you think Alan Sugar has said he can never buy a football club again?  
Fans want someone to come and spend money and win trophies, that is all they care about and that is what has landed most clubs where they are. Our club is well managed and that is something to not take for granted in the present where clubs are falling like flies.

What are you guys not saying ? Cashley Cow, Laurent, Sol Campbel and Kolo Toure are Graham imports ?

Ibime:

Debo is now admitting what I told him 2 years ago, namely that AW's early success was built of George Grahams defence.

Even Arsene will accept that much, he did say that he met a back 4 of graduates from the University of defending. But he showed with the invincibles that he could build one given a fair environment and the right financial backing. In the current financial doped PL I don't think that exists.

I can only hope that one can be built with our youth project products coming of age and shrewd buys like Kos and Squills. Guys like Nasri and Arshavin only need to get their heads screwed on right and stop exposing the defence. Our ever changing squad also doesn't help matters at all but I believe we'll get it right soon.

Good news on the injury front, Ramsey is only 3 weeks away from a return to full training and Bendtner is back in full training.

Even if we look at the defence of the Invincibles, their forte was recovery pace rather than tight formation defending. Safety first niggas like Campbell and Gilberto Silva masked Wengers defensive incompetence.

And I don't buy the idea that AW defence is crap cos he lacks dough. Negros like Vidic, Kompany, Evra, Jagielka, Alex etc cost less than Vermaelen or Koscielny. Wenger is just obsessed with buying ball playing defenders who can recycle possession to the midfield quickly. Sometimes you need a crude safety first defender like Sol Campbell.

@dudu. Am astonished to read that you put your money on Arsenal on Sunday. Now i know that you are Wenger's adopted son.

Ibime:

Debo is now admitting what I told him 2 years ago, namely that AW's early success was built of George Grahams defence.

I never argued with that, all I did was point to evidence that Wenger built a back 4 AFTER the initial one that was just as formidable with Sol, Lauren, Kolo and Cashley.

duduspace:

Even Arsene will accept that much, he did say that he met a back 4 of graduates from the University of defending. But he showed with the invincibles that he could build one given a fair environment and the right financial backing. In the current financial doped PL I don't think that exists.

Evidence shows year after year that it can be done. Without repeating all over again, we all know how much Cech, Hart, VDS Vidic, Evra, Alex and others cost - the issue is definitely NOT funding, it is the manager's philosophy - a flawed one at that, which is the cause of this current malaise.

The claim that it can't be done is a fallacy - when teams like Liverpool and Villa bettered our defensive performances despite their lower finishes, the fallacy in the argument above becomes even more apparent.

I can only hope that one can be built with our youth project products coming of age and shrewd buys like Kos and Squills. Guys like Nasri and Arshavin only need to get their heads screwed on right and stop exposing the defence. Our ever changing squad also doesn't help matters at all but I believe we'll get it right soon.

This has not succeeded in 5 years and shows no signs of succeeding now. Two clean sheets in 10 games is no reflection of a side showing defensive improvement.  As it stands now, our defence is the worst in the current top 7 excluding West Brom, who conceded 6 goals in one game.

yousouph:

@dudu. Am astonished to read that you put your money on Arsenal on Sunday. Now i know that you are Wenger's adopted son.

I know my father and my father knows me.  

debosky:

Evidence shows year after year that it can be done. Without repeating all over again, we all know how much Cech, Hart, VDS Vidic, Evra, Alex and others cost - the issue is definitely NOT funding, it is the manager's philosophy - a flawed one at that, which is the cause of this current malaise.

You look at those individual signings in isolation but not at the squad within which they function as a whole. Some of them are good bargains on the part of the manager true, but their squads as a whole were not built on shoe string budgets, no?

debosky:

This has not succeeded in 5 years and shows no signs of succeeding now. Two clean sheets in 10 games is no reflection of a side showing defensive improvement.  As it stands now, our defence is the worst in the current top 7 excluding West Brom, who conceded 6 goals in one game.

I don't think Arsenal under Arsene are going to be a defensive force (a la the italian teams of old or a Mourinho type team) and to be honest with you I don't want them to be. Arsene has his own system which makes our game exciting and has won trophies in the past. He just hasn't had the personel to make it work very recently.
The invincibles conceded goals, but succeeded majorly in outscoring the opponents (a major reason I think we went out to Chelsea in the quarters of the UCL with the invincibles)
The point at which I question your statements is when you lump everything together under the five years media mantra, that is stretching the truth and you know it. Only in the past 2 seasons have these thumpings began. I repeat and you can tell me if its a lie. In 08/09 season, we beat both Chelsea and Manure in the league and in 06/07, we broke a UCL record for defending without conceding with a backline which included Senderos.

duduspace:

You look at those individual signings in isolation but not at the squad within which they function as a whole. Some of them are good bargains on the part of the manager true, but their squads as a whole were not built on shoe string budgets, no?

How much did Villa's squad cost that their defensive performances are better than ours? There is no excuse apart from Wenger's coaching failure and his refusal to spend appropriately to strengthen the defence. End of story

I don't think Arsenal under Arsene are going to be a defensive force (a la the italian teams of old or a Mourinho type team) and to be honest with you I don't want them to be. Arsene has his own system which makes our game exciting and has won trophies in the past. He just hasn't had the personel to make it work very recently.

Dude do you just make up these things as you go?

No one is talking about being an Italian defence - the simple fact is, you DON'T win the title without one of the best defences in the land. When we've won titles, even under Wenger, we've been the best at attack AND defence. I don't know what 'system' you're going on about, but any system that doesn't deliver defensive solidity is a failed one.

The invincibles conceded goals, but succeeded majorly in outscoring the opponents (a major reason I think we went out to Chelsea in the quarters of the UCL with the invincibles)

WRONG - the tables have not vanished - in 2004 we were the best in attack AND defence. In 2005 we outscored everyone but still lost the title, which proves you CANNOT win by outscoring your opponents in a league - you must have the best defence too.

The point at which I question your statements is when you lump everything together under the five years media mantra, that is stretching the truth and you know it. Only in the past 2 seasons have these thumpings began. I repeat and you can tell me if its a lie. In 08/09 season, we beat both Chelsea and Manure in the league and in 06/07, we broke a UCL record for defending without conceding with a backline which included Senderos.

Who is talking about losing to Chelski and Utd? Our defence has gotten worse since 2004 and that is a FACT and not media manipulation.

Year GA
2004 26
2005 36
2006 31
2007 35
2008 31
2009 37
2010 41

The CL campaign was an exception, the overall trend is downwards and worsening.

On this defence debate.
I think it's not enough to blame the defenders.
even if we get the best of the best at Arsenal, we would still not be good enough!
Why?
We don't defend as a UNIT
A simple counter attack results in goals against us.
If you watch the replay of most of our goals, you will be appalled.
You see midfielders strolling back, unconcerned that we are being attacked.
We really suck in that aspect and until it improves, it will be difficult to win anything!

debosky:

How much did Villa's squad cost that their defensive performances are better than ours? There is no excuse apart from Wenger's coaching failure and his refusal to spend appropriately to strengthen the defence. End of story

Does Villa go as far as we do in Europe? is Villa consistently in the top 4? and yes Villa have outspent us in the "Transfer" market under Arsene.

debosky:

No one is talking about being an Italian defence - the simple fact is, you DON'T win the title without one of the best defences in the land. When we've won titles, even under Wenger, we've been the best at attack AND defence. I don't know what 'system' you're going on about, but any system that doesn't deliver defensive solidity is a failed one.

That quote is not true, the Barcelona team is not known for defensive solidity and the season 2002/2003 immediately prior to the invincibles season, that squad conceded 42 goals in the league and came 2nd while winning the FA cup, from the data you show below, we've not conceeded up to or over that amount of goals for the past 5 years you say our defence has been poor.
My point is, yes our defence is poor now but it is stretching the truth to claim it has been poor for five years, none of the data you supply proves that.

debosky:

WRONG - the tables have not vanished - in 2004 we were the best in attack AND defence. In 2005 we outscored everyone but still lost the title, which proves you CANNOT win by outscoring your opponents in a league - you must have the best defence too.

Who is talking about losing to Chelski and Utd? Our defence has gotten worse since 2004 and that is a FACT and not media manipulation.

Year GA
2004 26
2005 36
2006 31
2007 35
2008 31
2009 37
2010 41

The CL campaign was an exception, the overall trend is downwards and worsening.

The data doesn't show a downward trend and I absolutely love your play on the data as if 2004 represents all the years before then. Can you kindly show the data from the 2003 season when we were still considered a winning club? or the season before that? Our defensive performance have yo yo'd over the past 5 years and have worsened from 2 seasons ago is about the fairest assumption you can draw from the data you show. It is stretching the truth to claim there has been a downward trend for 5 years, it simply doesn't hold up with this information you've supplied.
If you include the 2 years prior to the invincibles (which was a unique achievement by the way) it blows that theory dead out of the waters.

2002 36
2003 42

Yes the team's defending was atrocious last season, yes it looks effy right now but to claim it has been on a downward slope for 5 years is a calculated attempt to mislead the less discerning.

HNIC:

If you watch the replay of most of our goals, you will be appalled.
You see midfielders strolling back, unconcerned that we are being attacked.
We really suck in that aspect and until it improves, it will be difficult to win anything!

I second you HNIC, Nasri in particular has been very culpable. In both the WBA and chelsea games he has often allowed the attacking full back get a run on Sagna. Arshavin is not much better wide left. It is usually interesting to see Chamakh who is supposed to be the arrowhead of our attack covering for Nasri wide a lot of times.

duduspace:

Does Villa go as far as we do in Europe? is Villa consistently in the top 4? and yes Villa have outspent us in the "Transfer" market under Arsene.

Absolutely ridiculous. . . .so we concede more goals than Villa because we are in Europe? How much did the defenders in Villa's defence cost? You go to ridiculous lengths to justify the unjustifiable. It is a disgrace that Villa can defend better than Arsenal, full stop.

That quote is not true, the Barcelona team is not known for defensive solidity and the season 2002/2003 immediately prior to the invincibles season, that squad conceded 42 goals in the league and came 2nd while winning the FA cup, from the data you show below, we've not conceeded up to or over that amount of goals for the past 5 years you say our defence has been poor.

Since when did Barca play in the EPL? Why not look at your direct competitors instead of making outlandish comparisons?

The squad conceded 42 goals and came SECOND - which reinforces that you CANNOT win the league with a leaky defence.

My point is, yes our defence is poor now but it is stretching the truth to claim it has been poor for five years, none of the data you supply proves that.

The data shows EXACTLY that - we have not conceded less than 30 goals in any season since 2004, so that is poor in my opinion. This is brought into greater focus when we find that the ONLY time the league winner has conceded more than 30 goals was last season. . . .and guess how many we conceded? 41!!!

The data doesn't show a downward trend and I absolutely love your play on the data as if 2004 represents all the years before then.
Can you kindly show the data from the 2003 season when we were still considered a winning club? or the season before that? Our defensive performance have yo yo'd over the past 5 years and have worsened from 2 seasons ago is about the fairest assumption you can draw from the data you show. It is stretching the truth to claim there has been a downward trend for 5 years, it simply doesn't hold up with this information you've supplied.
If you include the 2 years prior to the invincibles (which was a unique achievement by the way) it blows that theory dead out of the waters.

2002 36
2003 42

In 2002, only ONE team had a better defence. . .and it is indicative of the raised bar in the EPL that no one has won the league with such a bad defensive record since then!

We didn't win the league in 2003 did we? Or what exactly are you justifying?

Keep trying to shift goal posts - our defence has been worse since 2004, that remains a FACT. We have not managed to concede less than 30 goals since then. Furthermore, the fact that the league winners didn't concede more than 30 goals (except last season) further proves that we have gotten worse compared to our rivals.

You cannot pick one off cases to justify arguments. . . .the long term trends show that our defence has worsened since we last won the league.

Yes the team's defending was atrocious last season, yes it looks effy right now but to claim it has been on a downward slope for 5 years is a calculated attempt to mislead the less discerning.

Plot it on a graph and calculate the slope. . . .I'm sure you know how to use excel. The slope is upwards without a doubt - more goals conceded as the years go by.

Besides, we cannot look at Arsenal in isolation - if the teams around you are getting better and you remain the same, that is a clear sign of retrogression. Arsenal is supposed to be competitive and up there with the best - our defensive record indicates we are not doing that, and it clearly has little to do with an inability to spend.

Shebi Arsene was the Arsenal Coach pre 2004?

duduspace:

Look at you on our thread removing the speck in arsenal's eye while Mainz are pulling down your underpants in the Bundesliga, even Rummenigge has realised that Munich might be battling relegation this season.

Its amazing how shameless you are. Speck in the eye of a club who won a double 5 months ago and compare that to 5 yrs of trophylessness

Duduspace = Delusion

dayokanu:

Its amazing how shameless you are. Speck in the eye of a club who won a double 5 months ago and compare that to 5 yrs of trophylessness

Duduspace = Delusion

The Highlighted!
Like the Arsenal have never won a double before
Which double sef?
In that 3rd rate league comparable to the Championship
I am sure QPR would be in the top three in the German league.
Come to think of it.
Steve Mclaren's side,Wolfsburg are above you 

HNIC:

The Highlighted!
Like the Arsenal have never won a double before
Which double sef?
In that 3rd rate league comparable to the Championship
I am sure QPR would be in the top three in the German league.
Come to think of it.
Steve Mclaren's side,Wolfsburg are above you

Arsenal won a double in which yr?

Cos I doubt if it was in the last 6yrs

dayokanu:

Arsenal won a double in which yr?

Cos I doubt if it was in the last 6yrs

They have sha. . . won a double before abi?
Even if it was in the 19th century!
Uruguay have won the world cup twice

HNIC:

They have sha. . . won a double before abi?
Even if it was in the 19th century!
Uruguay have won the world cup twice

No mind DK joo, yesterday is yesterday abeg, Bayern has not won anything for the past 5 months and they are now flirting with relegation.

How many clubs have won anything in the last 5 months all over Europe?

debosky:

Absolutely ridiculous. . . .so we concede more goals than Villa because we are in Europe? How much did the defenders in Villa's defence cost? You go to ridiculous lengths to justify the unjustifiable. It is a disgrace that Villa can defend better than Arsenal, full stop.

This is inane, no one has a divine right to be better than anyone in any aspect of the game, at the end of the day, we are better than Villa, Chelsea and Manure have been better than us in recent years o pari and there is a reason why that is but you choose blissful ignorance rather than acknowledging it.

debosky:

The squad conceded 42 goals and came SECOND - which reinforces that you CANNOT win the league with a leaky defence.

Yes, and won it the year before that conceding 36 goals in 2002, we have conceeded 31 goals in both 2006 and 2008 and won nada, are those 2 years not within the so called 5 years you are claiming our defence has been going downhill?  

debosky:

The data shows EXACTLY that - we have not conceded less than 30 goals in any season since 2004, so that is poor in my opinion. This is brought into greater focus when we find that the ONLY time the league winner has conceded more than 30 goals was last season. . . .and guess how many we conceded? 41!!!
In 2002, only ONE team had a better defence. . .and it is indicative of the raised bar in the EPL that no one has won the league with such a bad defensive record since then!

And why exactly do you believe the bar will remain static? why this insistence on acting as if creation began after the FA trophy win in 2005? and that life will remain static as its being post 2005? this is the opinion I question, it just doesn't stack up to reality.

debosky:

Keep trying to shift goal posts - our defence has been worse since 2004, that remains a FACT. We have not managed to concede less than 30 goals since then. Furthermore, the fact that the league winners didn't concede more than 30 goals (except last season) further proves that we have gotten worse compared to our rivals.

Our defence is worse off than it was in 2004, only a mad man would deny that, but to claim our defence has been going downhill for 5 years as if its been the same thing year on year is an untruth, that is the portion of your statement I question.

debosky:

Plot it on a graph and calculate the slope. . . .I'm sure you know how to use excel. The slope is upwards without a doubt - more goals conceded as the years go by.

The slope definitely will be downwards if what you have now is worse than what you had before, isn't that a given? what I've said is that it has yo yo'd with peaks and troughs. It hasn't been on a consistent slide. Basically its reflected the overall reduction in quality in the squad and it has not been for 5 years. 2004 was a unique invincible year and a one off as you say, in the 2 years before it we conceeded 42 and 36 goals respectively the variance to 2002 (when we also won the league) is a wide margin of 10 goals.

debosky:

Besides, we cannot look at Arsenal in isolation - if the teams around you are getting better and you remain the same, that is a clear sign of retrogression. Arsenal is supposed to be competitive and up there with the best - our defensive record indicates we are not doing that, and it clearly has little to do with an inability to spend.

Where are these teams that are getting better around us? the only teams I see around are the pretenders like AV who are not as consistent as we are, Tottenham who started out as we are and now look at us with envy and Liverpool who have fallen away rather badly in recent times.
If you are referring to those you can say are truly better than us (Chelsea and Manure), their quality is definitely tied to their spending.
Will you be kind enough to supply the data for these clubs that you claim are getting better and lets see if that statement holds up?

dayokanu:

How many clubs have won anything in the last 5 months all over Europe?

Wetin concern me with other clubs?  all I know is Bayern haven't won anything for 5 months since all we are counting is the time to your last trophy. 

duduspace:

This is inane, no one has a divine right to be better than anyone in any aspect of the game, at the end of the day, we are better than Villa, Chelsea and Manure have been better than us in recent years o pari and there is a reason why that is but you choose blissful ignorance rather than acknowledging it.

You have now modified your argument. . . . .you are a true son of your father Wenger.

We're talking defensive discipline - Villa's defence costs LESS and defends better than ours - that is the simple fact and is a disgrace for Wenger, after he singlehandedly signed every single player in the squad.

Yes, and won it the year before that conceding 36 goals in 2002, we have conceeded 31 goals in both 2006 and 2008 and won nada, are those 2 years not within the so called 5 years you are claiming our defence has been going downhill?  

The defence has gone downhill. . . . .unless Wengernomics has now usurped simple arithmetic, 31 goals conceded is WORSE than 26 conceded in 2004, and is not good enough to win the league in any year since 2002.

And why exactly do you believe the bar will remain static? why this insistence on acting as if creation began after the FA trophy win in 2005? and that life will remain static as its being post 2005? this is the opinion I question, it just doesn't stack up to reality.

Who said it was static? You were saying the defence was OK, but the proof says otherwise - we have regressed compared to our competitors, so that demonstrates we're going downhill. Creation didn't start in 2005, but there is an explanation for the abysmal results compared to our rivals since, and the explanation is Wenger's failure.

Our defence is worse off than it was in 2004, only a mad man would deny that, but to claim our defence has been going downhill for 5 years as if its been the same thing year on year is an untruth, that is the portion of your statement I question.

Ol boy, stop trying to nit pick. . . .I never said 'year on year', that is your attempt to split hairs. . . .looking at the TREND, we are getting worse. SIMPLE. Oh I see you've admitted that.

The slope definitely will be downwards if what you have now is worse than what you had before, isn't that a given? what I've said is that it has yo yo'd with peaks and troughs. It hasn't been on a consistent slide. Basically its reflected the overall reduction in quality in the squad and it has not been for 5 years.

What a round about way to admit that the defence is poorer. So your 'point' is that it's not been going down year after year, something no one contested in the first place. . . .dunno when you started arguing with yourself.

2004 was a unique invincible year and a one off as you say, in the 2 years before it we conceeded 42 and 36 goals respectively the variance to 2002 (when we also won the league) is a wide margin of 10 goals.

So all the years where the CHAMPIONS have conceded less than 30 goals 04/05, 05/06, 07/08, 08/09. . . .are all those 'one-offs' too? Or is Arsenal competing with itself alone for the league? The best defence wins the league, we don't have it = we have gotten worse. SIMPLE.

Where are these teams that are getting better around us? the only teams I see around are the pretenders like AV who are not as consistent as we are, Tottenham who started out as we are and now look at us with envy and Liverpool who have fallen away rather badly in recent times.
If you are referring to those you can say are truly better than us (Chelsea and Manure), their quality is definitely tied to their spending.

Stop going round in circles - about 5 posts ago, I demonstrated that Cech, Evra, Vidic, Alex and so on were NOT expensive buys. Arsenal could EASILY afford to buy those, but Wenger instead refuses to spend. If you have money and refuse to spend, whose fault is that?

This brings me back to my initial assertion, which all these long winded, round about self-arguments have failed to address:

Wenger has FAILED to coach a good defensive side in 5 years. . . arguably even longer (when he bought ready made defenders). Instead of doing what he did then (buying ready made defenders) he refuses and the team stagnates.

In conclusion, it a clear failure on Wenger's part that our defence has gotten worse - he can't coach them, and he refuses to buy them, even when we can OBVIOUSLY afford them.

If you have anything to counter the latter statement, post it succinctly, I tire rapidly for these epistles.