cultey:

So, who are the thinking beings?!!!

thehomer:

Look in a mirror and you'll see one of them.

cultey:

Anh anh, but you are contradicting yourself now?

Okay, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are trying to imply.

So please, explain to me what you mean by 'thinking ones' in your own terms!

The question is not what people you don't know have seen but what have you seen or understood that made you decide?

thehomer:

Humans are thinking beings.

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@thehomer
You say humane treatments are preferable to inhumane. The point is what is humane. Humane is relative among humans. Like i said, someone says she'll rather die than marry person A(death is more humane to her in this situation). Humans differ, your standard of good humane judgement may be another's nightmare. And i also said God is not human, He is God. That means He can set godly judgements, after His own standards, not after your whims and caprices.

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On Israelites killing people and so on, if you've truly read the Bible as you claimed, you know God doesn't require that of us again. Life is in stages and classes. What you do in stage 1 may not be repeated in stage 2.

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Yep, the Bible in full does not consider anything to be punishable by death. We live in the period of grace. When Jesus came, He brought grace for mankind. This means instead of instant judgement, you have another opportunity to do things right, to repent. It's not that God now condone your sin, but He now gives another chance and another.
Mankind is in a relationship with God. And it's a growing relationship. Like i said earlier, its in classes or stages. The Bible says in Galatians that in the OT we were young, under a school teacher. But in the new testament the relationship has advanced. For e.g There's a time when children cry and are forced to school, there's an advance when the child goes of his accord with some monitoring by the parent, there's an advance when the child graduates and is in more mature relationship with the parent.

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@thehomer
You can believe the Bible because it says so, that's one reason in the reasons i gave btw. If the Bible said 'don't believe in God, God didn't write the Bible'. Would that be of any consequence to you or would it remain 'circular'?
It's like someone in court who said he's innocent, you say that's circular/irrelevant. What if the person pleads guilty, would it be rectangular now or what?
Faith is the EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN. i thought you'll see that in the passage i quoted. You didn't bother to read it ko? There's the condescending attitude again. You only think you know the Bible or God, trust me you don't.
Faith is the evidence for what we don't or haven't seen. It's greater than evidence because 'evidence' in your context refers to something physical/tangible. But faith evidence refers to something higher, the invisible, the above natural, the spiritual.

thehomer:


I really do not understand how your analogy relates to the issue at hand. I'm not talking about God punishing the Israelites but God punishing other tribes. i.e it would be like enabling your child to go about killing other children who they are competing with in school for academic excellence.

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you didn't say people who believe in God are unintelligent and co, but it seems you implied it. That's why cultey's asking "who are higher beings" which you've replied btw. It's the way most atheists view believers. With an air of 'this people are ignorant and deluded, they need to come to london, or read so and so book'. You asked why one should believe God/the Bible, and amongst other reasons, i said people around you, as intelligent perhaps more, believe it. That's a point for you to consider it as serious.

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Now to thisThis is a 'circular fallacy', lol. You don't know me, you know those people i mentioned. BTW, i told you what i've seen that made me decide to believe the Bible. The purpose of life  man and God, eternal life, Jesus, peace, a clear perspective of things, hope, love etc. I see these in scriptures.

Deep Sight:

Sadly, this is what is conveyed in the bible and other religious texts.

I personally see no rational basis for supposing that the description of God contained therein has any similarity with that GOD which i perceive to be the creator of the universe.

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There are numerous fulfilled prophecies in the Bible, how many do you want? I gave reasonS, not just a reason for the Bible to be believed and why it's superior to other books. i won't throw away the FACT that it's the most popular book in the world, despite all opposition. How many best sellers fifty years ago are still best sellers today, not to mention books written 200yrs ago only found in the museum. Also said that it is above all other books
given it's insight into human nature, translations, it's
continual freshness, it's
inspiration and changing effect on human life
regardless of status.
What history of the Bible did not pass human frailty? The point is that despite all the fire, violence, intrigue and politics, the Bible still came out victorious and as God would have it. God's will ultimately prevailed over the 'trying time'. God's words cannot pass away, there's nothing any man can do about it.

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The Bible is truth and unchanging. It doesn't contain any contradiction or 'wrong opinion'. Except you call 'sit' and 'stand' contradictions. The same person that sits can also stand, even run. That's not a contradiction, there's time for everything. The Bible truly records wonders and supernatural stuff, call them myths at your own ignorance.

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@thehomer
The Bible doesn't contain any wrong opinion on any textbook. Maybe its the textbook that contains a wrong opinion, it usuall depends on which textbook and what edition one is reading, no?

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i've not said that some books outside the Bible contain or do not contain significant truths. Why do you not understand my speech said Jesus. I said there's no significant truth in any book, that claims to be from God, that's not in the Bible. Pls, i've saved the pages of those two links just for you. I'll read them later. But you, please mention one significant truth in each. Thank you.

cultey:

And so?

Are you implying that I am not thinking?

Do you agree that humane punishments are preferable to inhumane ones?

Your example is not a punishment but a person's stated desire (apart from the fact that we recognize such statements as being metaphorical and not literal)

Your statement about God not being human is why I pointed out that once you are dealing with intelligent beings, making arbitrary decisions is not acceptable.

The very fact that he ever did makes him an entity that is not benevolent

Keep in mind that according to the Bible, he does not chance i.e he is unrepentant and may just decide to do so again. After all, he won't ask you for permission now will he?

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Sorry o mr homer, i've been occupied

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I told you already, choices are relative, preferences are diverse, what i call inhumane may be humane for some and vice versa.But she views the option of marriage to person A as punishment. people actually/literally commit suicide for various reasons. Some will rather disappear than rebuild, some the other way round.

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We're not in the house of commons here, sorry. We're referring to the Creator. He is greater than and most intelligent than humans. When you produce another sun, get back to me on intelligence.

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He's the lawgiver and lifegiver. He can take and He can give as He pleases. It's similar to a man who owns a poultry. he can sell all the animals, he can kill all, he can spare some for one purpose of his or the other. maybe he may seem unfair in the mind of the chickens, maybe not. But he owns them, not tto talk of God who not only owns humanity and the earth, but also bought us, and most importantly created us.

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There you go twisting God's words. When the bible says he does not change, it is as a measure of His competence, the trust and reliance that we can put on Him that He does not fail. It's never a show of stubbornness or cruelty if you truly read it in context instead of trying to catch Him in His words.
Malachi 3:6  For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
i'll get back later, i have to go to church.

I hope you realize that you are implying that God has changed. He used to enjoy killing other tribes but now does not. He used to enjoy killing people for disobedience but now he does not.

I'm not talking about God punishing the Israelites but God punishing other tribes. i.e it would be like enabling your child to go about killing other children who they are competing with in school for academic excellence.

Sorry but a book asking me to believe it because it is written in the book is not a good enough reason for me to believe whatever is written in the book.

Again, you say faith is evidence and at the same time more than evidence which is it? What does it even mean for something to be more than evidence?

Can you please demonstrate how I'm being condescending with my quotes in context?

It's interesting that you've brought the courts into this discussion because I'm sure that you're aware that a person simply claiming that he is guilty is not guilty is not enough to release him. Whether or not he is convicted depends on evidence but I don't think legal evidence is the same as historical evidence.

You are making another claim and generalization that I do not think is necessary here unless you can clearly demonstrate how I implied that anyone I was discussing with was ignorant and deluded.

Those things are also seen in the Qur'an do you believe it too?

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@thehomer
No God hasn't changed in the sense that you portrayed. Like i said, God's relationship with man is progressive not static. Like the child analogy that i used, the parents had to spank the kid but now that the kid is old, he's not spanked again. he's now more mature and empowered to act right. It's not exactly that the parents changed, because if they were to have another kid today, he'll still undergo the same training, but the senior kid is already grown to a level. A wrong perspective will say the parent behaviour to the two kids is partial or inconsistent, but a right perspective will understand. In God's realm, there's something more than death, you seem to assume that death is the ultimate. People still die today, even more i suppose, and it's ignorance of scriptures to continually say that some other tribes were killed as if the Israelites lived forever.

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God owns the earth and its inhabitants. if you believe that God punished some other nation/tribe because the Bible said so, why do you neglect and disbelieve the parts of scriptures that also say God punished the Israelites or the reasons why God punished anybody (Israeli or non-israeli). God can use any instrument He pleases to use to mete out judgement. He used some nations to punish Israel when they sinned, no? And He used Israel to punish some others. He may use nature or sickness or devil or angel, He's God not man. He's the unlimited right Judge.

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But if it said not to believe in it, you'll take the words more serious se? That's just one reason out of the numerous i gave btw. It's a matter of trust ithink maybe. It's like if i said my name is Image123, you may take it so, you may want to see my birth certificate or ask around or see my id and all that. i hope u don't go through all that trouble for your friendships? Or it's like your parents told you that you were born at so so place on dayX. The majority won't go about hiring a detective to find out how true or doing DNA tests and co.

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Faith is the evidence of things not seen (Hebrew 11v1). Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
You take evidence to be limited to something we can see, something physical. But there's a realm apart from and above the physical realm. Faith is the evidence of that realm. It is more than evidence in that it is more than/above physical evidence.

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1. Like when you tell cultey that "One thing you need to understand is that once thinking beings are involved". It implies that you're looking down at or acting superior to his God, like his God doesn't think or doesn't think intelligently.

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2. Like when you say in post 34 page 2 that "the idea of hell is borne out of[b] ignorance[/b]", or that one is "forced to bow or scrape in heaven unlike hell". That's condescending.It's not enough but it's the major reason why the judge has not sentenced him and dismissed his case.

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I've sort of answered this, but let me add that this is what i said. "It's the way most atheists view believers.". In this case, i wasn't specific of you though you've accused millions of christians of ignorance, i've been fair.

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Come again? The purpose of life man and God as found in scriptures, eternal life, Jesus the Christ and Saviour of the world, peace, a clear perspective of things, hope, love? You mean you actually see these things in the quran? now you're seeing things that are not seen, lol.
It's a very occupied weekend for me, i'll be back pls

thehomer:

Look in a mirror and you'll see one of them.

Could you please present the best three fulfilled prophesies in your BIble?

I've already addressed the other issues you raised above in my previous posts.

I don't get why you're referring to verbs as contradictions do verbs have opposites?

My calling them myths is not from a position of ignorance but from one of knowledge.

I'll give you three in each.

From the first one:
1. Mary and Joseph were not engaged when Mary was pregnant.
2. Jesus was born in a cave not a manger.
3. Jesus was not taken to Egypt to flee the murder of babies under two by Herod but was placed in an ox stall. While John(the baptist) was placed in an opening created by an earthquake to avoid murder.

From the second:
1. Jesus wanted to keep something hidden from some other disciples not to talk about the rest of the world 2000 years later.
2. The head of prophesy was cut off with John the baptist. What does this imply? No more prophesies.
3. Jesus ascended in secrecy.

you asked me to send you a secret book which was revealed to me and Peter by the Lord
this which the Savior did not desire to recount to all of us, his twelve disciples. blessed are those who will be saved through faith in this discourse.
five hundred and fifty days after he arose from the dead, we said to him: "Have you gone and departed from us?"
Jesus is supposedly saying "Truly I say to you, no one ever will enter the Kingdom of Heaven if I bid him, but rather because you yourselves are full"
Then he says(Among other things) to this two clowns " be ashamed! Woe to those who have seen the Son of Man! Yours is life "(he seems quite confused here, that's what demons do to people under their influence, they mess them up bad like mad men). Then he continues
"Woe to those who have rested from their illness, because they will relapse again into illness! Blessed are those who have not been ill" (Obviously, a mock beatitudes)
"Therefore I say to you, become full and leave no place within you empty, since the Coming One is able to mock you."
"Become better than I" . "The Lord answered and said: "Do you not know that the head of prophecy was cut off with John?"
And I said: "Lord, it is not possible to remove the head of prophecy, is it?"
"Be zealous to be saved without being urged. Rather, be ready on your own and, if possible, go before me."(It's so ludicrous, i'm laughing?)
"Let not the Kingdom of Heaven wither away."why do you all restrain me when I am eager to go?"
"O you wretched! O you unfortunates! O you dissemblers of the truth! O you falsifiers of knowledge! O you sinners against the spirit!"(jesus is supposedly addressing james and peter?)
"And now, then, be ashamed on account of them. I do not desire to remain with you any longer - just as you yourselves have not desired. Now, then, follow me quickly." Yours is life! Rejoice and be glad as children of God." "Woe to you who are in need of grace! Blessed are those who have spoken freely and have produced grace for themselves."

thehomer:

Please go back and read what I was saying before you latched on to the phrase "intelligent being".
No I'm not implying that you are not thinking. Why would you think that?

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Which one is 'your Bible', do you have your own. Anyway, in no particular order, let me mention 7(prophecy) fulfilled prophecies from scriptures.
1. There're so many about Christ Jesus but i'll give just some from the popular Isaiah 53 and Psalm 22 passages.
Isaiah 53:3  He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Luke 9:22  Saying, The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.
Fulfilled,  
Matthew 26:67  Then did they spit in his face, and buffeted him; and others smote him with the palms of their hands,
Again,
Isa 53:7  He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
Fulfilled, Luke 23:9  Then he questioned with him in many words; but he answered him nothing. AND   Mark 15:5  But Jesus yet answered nothing; so that Pilate marveled.
Again,
Isa 53:12  Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
Fulfilled,
Mark 15:27  And with him they crucify two thieves; the one on his right hand, and the other on his left.
Mar 15:28  And the Scripture was fulfilled, which saith, And he was numbered with the transgressors.

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Then Psalm 22 and Jesus crucifixion
Psalm 22v1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
Psa 22:7  All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
Psa 22:8  He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.
Fulfilled
Matthew 27:39  And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
Mat 27:43  He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.
Mat 27:46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Psa 22:18  They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Mark 15:24  And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take.

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2. Jesus prophesied this
Matthew 24:1  And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to show him the buildings of the temple.
Mat 24:2  And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
Jesus actually described the destruction of the Jerusalem temple in detail and clarity. History attests to the fact that this happened about 70years after Jesus' death i.e 70AD. The Roman soldiers led by general Titus actually made sure that there was no stone left on top of the other in this magnificient building that took more than 40years to build.

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3. Matthew 24:6  And ye shall hear of wars and rumors of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
Mat 24:7  For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdo[/b]m: and there shall be [b]famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
today, these are common occurences, actually they still make news headlines. But 2000 years ago in Jerusalem, no one could see it as a probable thing around the world.

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4.  Matthew 24:9  Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
At this time, the disciples didn't even know that they'll have to still take the gospel outside the nation of Israel,. they'd never been harrassed or arrested, not to talk of killed.

5. 2Timothy 3:13  But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
It's happening even here on nairaland. Evil is not been suppressed in the world. Deceivers are all over the place, some claiming to be christians, some not.

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6. Daniel 2:39  And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee, and another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth.
Dan 2:40  And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise.
Dan 2:41  And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; but there shall be in it of the strength of the iron, forasmuch as thou sawest the iron mixed with miry clay.
Dan 2:42  And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.
Dan 2:43  And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
Dan 2:44  And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

Here's the prophecy of Daniel to king Nebuchadrezzar (representative of the Babylon empire). History says that after the Babylon empire came the Mede-Persian empire which was not as strong as the Babylon empire. then after it came the Greek empire which is the "third kingdom of brass". After this kingdom/empire came the Roman empire, which is  "the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron". After the Roman empire broke up, there's not been a single unit world power but divided amongst nations. this is the state in which the world will remain until Jesus comes again. Jesus is the One coming with the kingdom that will never be destroyed, that will stand forever.

7.  Dan 5:26  This is the interpretation of the thing: MENE; God hath numbered thy kingdom, and finished it.
Dan 5:27  TEKEL; Thou art weighed in the balances, and art found wanting.
Dan 5:28  PERES; Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians.
Dan 5:30  In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain.
Dan 5:31  And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old.

This is a prophecy to the last king of the Babylon empire. It was fulfilled that same night, and Darius of Mede took the kingdom.

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Those were other reasons to believe the Bible apart from its indisputable popularity.
A.  It's insight into human nature is unparalleled as compared to any book before it or  even after.
B, It's uncountable number of different translations in so many other languages, not to mention the English language translations. Any other book like that please?
C. Its continual freshness. People read and read and continue to read all through a life time, and there's still always something special. There's no man authored book like that please.
D. Its inspiration and changing effect on human life regardless of status.I've seen the effect of just one verse countless times. It can actually break all defence and lead to a decision making to serve God.

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i should be asking you. God did this(or told people to do this) in the OT, and in the NT He does that(or told people to do that). So, do verbs have opposite?
You'd call this contradiction too?
Matthew 16:20  Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.
Mat 28:19  Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20  Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

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What knowledge? that it didn't happen in your front? and that's the condescension again?

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When i said significant truths, i meant the words 'significant' and 'truth'. i didn't say "spot the difference" OR "other ideas" or "significant events"
Like for you, you mentioned that the earth been older than 10000years, or stars been bigger than the earth are significant truths. How does that affect the common man, not to mention the common christian. While what you've said may be true, its not significant to the majority, maybe it becomes so in an exam or in science class. Significant truths are issues that are genuine [/b]and that [b]affect humanity, our salvation, our eternity, our life. Who cares if "Mary and Joseph were not engaged when Mary was pregnant" or that "Jesus was born in a cave not a manger", or that Jesus went to Egypt or Ethiopia when He was months old. It doesn't change the fact that He was born of virgin birth, or that He's the Saviour of the world and the Son and lamb of God. How does it matter to anyone that Mary was dancing in the temple as a superstar to the isrealis at 3years, or that she could stand at 6months old and walk seven steps to whoever and what nots? Asides whether the book is true or false, it adds nothing. it barely speaks of Jesus, the constant theme of the Bible. There's nothing to inspire or bring faith or save or heal or anything bible does.
And then the other book is just plain error, it's definitely not scripture.

2Corinthians 11:13  For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
Any doctrine or teaching contrary to the Bible is from a false prophet and cannot be regarded. It's so marked different from the whole of scripture from beginning to end. Let me quote some of it here to show how ridiculous it is even to the casual reader.
This is some James writing about his discuss with a fake peter and a demon calling himself jesusi'll stop here, any sincere person gets the idea