i'll reply you more by/before weekend i think, when i'm with my computer. We're making good progress at last, thank God. BTW, what's that you said i'm evading again?i.e in your 1st sentence.

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i'll reply you more by/before weekend i think, when i'm with my computer. We're making good progress at last, thank God. BTW, what's that you said i'm evading again?i.e in your 1st sentence.

Ok.
You're evading the question of which of whether or not a particular punishment was humane.

@thehomer

So you wish to keep evading? That's fine.
You're evading the question of which of whether or not a particular punishment was humane.

Okay, thanks for your patience. As to your 'evading' query, well it's up to you, or better still "that's fine". i believe that i've answered you, maybe you don't like my answer as usual. It's like someone asking me 'what's your name?' It's at my discretion that i'll answer the question as simple as it sounds, especially when the question is not too relevant. You're asking why don't God for instance punish a sinner by sending him to jail or doing community service(A) instead of killing him(B). You believe A is a better option than B, and i've told you there are other options, and different marking schemes. Why for instance have you turned a blind eye on the option of forgiving the repentant sinner which God does and is still doing? Why do you fail to see beyond you and i agreeing together? I've told you that our agreement or disagreement is not what matters but God's stand/standard.
Proverb 11:21  Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered.
Have used different scenarios, models and examples(that's what most 'science' is based on) to show you that humans have varying and changing values, standards and judgements even in little time frames and dependent on person and place. Do begin to realise that humans are not robots or computers, the same input doesn't always produce the same output.

How does God's standards guide us?

Human standards are not dependable, because again, one man's poison is another's meat. Rulers, heads, governments change. they determine standards, so the law/standards become subject to the dictates of who's presently in charge. One man thinks its okay to have marry anyone, the other doesn't. One man thinks a person should not have more than a certain amount of property, the other doesn't. One man thinks sleeping with animals is a hideous crime, the other thinks its his right. One man thinks the rich should be robbed/milked to feed others, the other man doesn't. one man thinks women should not be educated, the other doesn't. At the end, we're not all agreed on what's right and what's wrong. But when we're all looking at the same thing, coming from God i.e the Word of God, His Word guides us. His Word is the final arbiter showing us what is truly wrong/right.
it's like a set of people seeking employment. they need to know what the organization requires, so that they can prepare and present themselves in line with what is required. In this case, the organisation is Heaven. Anyone who wants to get to heaven wants to do the right/good. It's not each individual's feelings of what is good or bad that matters, but the Owner of Heaven's criteria. that's why we need His standards to guide us, so that we don't come up on interview day with the wrong requirements.

Oh yes. but in this case it's not just mine, but humanity in general.

I've addressed this above. After this short time on earth, there's an endless eternity to follow. not only that, we live on God's earth and are God's creatures so He's the boss, not 'humanity'.

This is why humanity as a whole abhors slavery but God advices us on how to treat slaves.

humanity as a whole abhors slavery? you're lying here. Many others are of another opinion. If you live in nigeria for instance, you might see or hear of slaves. because they call them some other glorified or'humane' name doesn't mean they are not. Many world leaders would forever keep their citizens in perpetual slavery for the love of money and power.
SLAVE: 1.  somebody forced to work for another: somebody who is forced to work for somebody else for no payment and is regarded as the property of that person
2.  dominated person: somebody who is dominated by somebody or by something
3.  somebody accepting another's rule: somebody who meekly accepts being ruled by somebody else
4.  very hard worker: somebody who works hard, in bad conditions, and for low pay
Microsoft® Encarta® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

I don't understand your "God advices us on how to treat slaves" part. Can you be more specific?

My goodness. Have you actually read your Bible? Do you not know that God made a decree "Thou shalt not kill" but encouraged "his people" to commit genocide, he helped others kill "his people" and he sometimes went ahead and killed other people? Please read your Bible. How many perspectives can one view genocide?

i've said and will say again that it's either "you do not understand what you've read, or you're looking from the wrong perspective". It'll help you to realise that the world is not in a state of utopia. You can't put tongue in cheek and say that God's people should not have a military/army/defence. Or that there should be no judgement or punishment but forgiveness unlimited since God is a loving and merciful God. that's a very poor understanding of God. God is also just and righteous. When God says 'thou shalt not kill', you should know He's for instance not saying don't kill plants and animals for food or something. he's not saying don't kill cockroaches and mosquitoes, rats and lizards in your living room. He's saying do not kill your fellow human being, that is of your own volition, irrespective of what he does, he has a right to life like you, you do not own him, neither can you create him. this is different from a case of judgement. The Israelites didn't take judgement to their hands like jungle people. Judgement was decided by judges. Judgement is different from personal revenge or will. Judgement involved judges and witnesses, and was approved by God. Today, in our law courts, i'm aware that it's not a crime to kill another in the case of self defence?
i think genocide is a crime? if it is, then the Israelites cannot be accused of commiting a crime. One, because it was not a crime by law until 1944 or so. Two, because they were ordered by the law giver Himself i.e they had express permission to carry out judgement on the said people. If you want to, we can discuss more/expressly on these 'crimes' with you making definite pointings, maybe in another thread?

Actually, the human system we have is very good and actually better than what God has written in the Bible.

As usual, we have different/varying human systems from place to place and country to country, like the Barbarian system, the hitler system, the Gaddaffi system, the MEND system, the Nigerian system, the UN system etc. The best of human system usually has its roots in the Bible by the way.

This is why owning other humans is a crime.

Do you know how many nigerian men own their wives and daughters legally?
Do you know that some governments own their citizens?

How many ways can one understand how to go into a town, kill all males (old, young, infant etc), kill all females who have had intercourse with anyone (how can they tell), but keep the young virgins (guess their ages) for yourselves. Oh and make sure the priests get their cut of the virgins too.
Please enlighten me as to the reason for your saying so.

You like to ask a lot of questions all at once sha, sorry you. It's the state of the fallen man, he's confused until Jesus brings him real peace. While i can answer all these questions, i know more will continue to come from you. the only One who truly satisfies is God, He's the only One whom you can drink from and thirst no more. Like they say, human needs are insatiable. We've talked a bit about judgement and punishment. God wants repentance and forgiveness, he offers you repentance and forgiveness. i've told you, this world is not a utopia, people die, people fight. If God says kill everybody, you complain. If He says spare some, you still complain. Even if He says don't kill again till judgement day, you're still complaining.
When victors spare captives, it's not only for marriage or to sleep with them. i understand the society we live in and the way they think. Naaman in the Bible, (a syrian i think) had a female captive, joseph was a slave in a strange land. So also, Esther, Daniel and his three friends. All these people were not sleeping toys or something as you may be thinking. You need a dip in the blood of Jesus and a renewed mind.

Well, that was a comparison and not an explanation.

stop being chidish. It was an explanation.

My goodness so you think that because science doesn't do 100% proofs makes it incorrect? It seems you really have a long way to go when it comes to understanding how science works. I'll just let you know that the device you're using to surf the web and the devices used to study the cosmos have the same thought processes behind them.

No, i don't think that because science doesn't do 100% proofs makes it incorrect. I said that your reason why the solar system is the way it currently is, is so unscience. It's so full of probabilities, suppositions and hypothesis. I told you to refresh yourself on the meaning of the words i highlighted from your link. The whole story you treasure is popularly called by scientists themselves as  nebular HYPOTHESIS. So many 'may have's, 'suggest that's, 'thought to's. Nothing committed or definite. We can't build the reason why the solar system is the way it currently is on simulations brova. We need evidence. Plus don't be dumb enough to think that all scientists don't believe in God. Most of those devices, thought processes and laboratories are done and occupied by people who believe that a God exists and who are honest enough to tell us that their works are simulations, hypothesis and models and estimated projections. Why you choose to make an idol of them is what is embarrasing. Talking about understanding how science works? i thank God i'm no stranger, and we have practising scientists who believe in God on this board aplenty.

Some people deserve to burn in HELL. They were very wicked and even when they were warned to repent they refused and continued in their rebellion and wickedness. So let them burn.

ifele:

Some people deserve to burn in HELL. They were very wicked and even when they were warned to repent they refused and continued in their rebellion and wickedness. So let them burn.

So much love in your statement. You must have read the part in the bible where Jesus told people to love thy neighbor, and instead laughed yourself to tears.

Hell was created for satan and his angels,originally.

@thehomer

I'll also like to see your scientific evidence for the claim of humans being around for only 10,000 years (4000 years longer than Genesis says).

Science says the most recent time is the holocene epoch(estimated to be about 11500 years ago) when 'modern humans evolved'. That 'modern human' term refers to our human race? i'm not oblivious to the ape evolution, 'lucy' thing and all, i trace myself to Adam not some 'lucy'. I know you'll have to do some research to confirm in case you do not know of these things, no problem. But we all have Bible, and mine also has Genesis. Please show us where in Genesis, the Bible says human beings were around 'for ONLY 6000 years', thank you.

I also noticed how you underline large numbers. It just goes to show how much you really do not understand. I'll simply advice you to further educate yourself and try to find out the reasons behind those numbers. You need to avoid thinking that things you do not understand are automatically false.

My exact reasons for putting up the age of man! you don't understand what i'm saying. It's not about man been 200years old, or 20000years old, or 2million years old. It's about how the processes of what happened before you were born, before anyone was born, are been portrayed as if it happened last night on CNN live. These things are conjectures, hypotheses, suggestions, that's the point i'm trying to make obvious to you. i understand and studied these things, i'm not here on whether it's false or true. i'm telling you the bases/foundations are not that solid. The Word of God is surer.

You have still failed to answer my questions. I asked how much deviation would end human life? And why do you think that if the earth were not tilted, humans would not survive? A 90º tilt is significant when we consider that the current tilt is about 23º.
I'm quite conversant enough with geography and astronomy to know that compared to our current distance from the sun, the distance from earth to Venus or to Mars is not little.

Go and read geography. If they earth deviated/went closer to the moon, the whole earth would be flooded ending human life. If the earth reduced it's speed of rotation, the plants would be exposed to the sun for longer periods, will be scorched and die Animals will suffer and die of thirst, humans will not eat again. If the earth deviated say 45⁰, the poles will melt and flood the earth and so on and forth. If you do not agree on this things, sorry i can't help you here. Maybe you'll need some geography textbooks and all.

John 3:12  If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
The point was and is that there's a power that holds/sustains the earth, the solar system, even the whole universe. It is the power of God, not chance, not a big bang. there's a God that has set the earth in its orbit and it can not of it's own accord wander off that orbit.
Job 38:1  Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:4  Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:9  When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddling band for it,
Job 38:10  And broke up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
Job 38:11  And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
Job 38:14  It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

Isaiah 40:21  Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
Isaiah 40:22  It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

The quote was right above my statement. Here, you are now outright denying what has been seen with a telescope.

And what is that thing that has been seen by a telescope that i'm denying? I'll be good to remind you AGAIN that i said "No one can observe stars forming and getting annihilated regularly through a telescope" the site said the below, YES or NO?

Supernova explosion that formed Gum Nebula MOST LIKELY occured 10000 - 20000 years ago.
MAY HAVE ALSO POSSIBLY BEEN
Additional UNCONFIRMED supernova events.
only 7100 light years from the earth.
The most recent supernova seen in the milky way galaxy was in 1604
A galaxy may experience one exploding star in a century

AGAIN, you said people "stars form and get annihilated regularly". I rest my case on this.

Why would I? Do you actually expect me to refer to a collection of myths for the definition of words currently used in English? So faith is not a really good line to follow.

thehomer, you skipped six definitions, SIX. You chose to suit your bias in a bid to prove that you don't have faith. Love it or hate it, EVERY MAN has faith. God gave you faith.
Romans 12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

There is a difference between not knowing and not finding evidence to support a conclusion. If you say the earth is flat, you are wrong. If you do not know the shape, then you do not know the shape. If people have looked and do not find evidence for a certain entity yet others claim it is there without providing evidence or presenting evidence that is not good, then there is no reason to conclude that this entity is actually present. This is irrespective of the number of claimants.

they've provided it, it's just that you've failed to perceive it. Faith is the medium, the sense organ to the spiritual, and ofcourse to God.

Hebrews 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God MUST believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
In that realm, believing is seeing. Billions believe and see that there's a God. You too can believe, you have faith. you've demonstrated your faith/belief in science and in figures like TRILLIONS of years and 7100 LIGHT YEARS away. God's not that far.
Act 17:27  That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28  For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

What demonstrable evidence has been shown by these billions for this Creator?

Faith, the EVIDENCE of things not seen, remember?

Have you not realized that a humane punishment is a punishment and an inhumane punishment is also a punishment? Please do yourself a favour and actually read what I post.

So humane punishment is inhumane punishment, you're a genius, love.

Again popularity does not make it divine otherwise Michael Jackson's albums are divine. After all, they've sold more than gospel albums. Besides, I hope you realize that a lot of those new testament copies are like those that I presented to you that actually paint very different stories.

Compare michael jackson's album selling to the Word, the Word. Don't lose precious focus here. Thank God for michael's death that sort of resurged his popularity. he was already waning even when still alive. Can you measure with a book more than 2000years old and still waxing strong[b]ER[/b]. Compare the translations, the followership, the nations, and generations.

Isaiah 6:3  And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

Preservation? Actually, there are books older than the Bible available. Are they divine too?

Do you have them with you?

Tell me. What does it say about curing leprosy?

It says that God can cure leprosy, and did cure leprosy both in the old and new testament.

I hope you realize that the principle of democracy is nowhere to be found in the Bible.

Sorry, did i say it was?

Neither is an important concept like capitalism present in the Bible. So, you may consider the influence of the Bible less than the influence of democracy, capitalism and free inquiry.

What's capitalism again? i expect the average person to know this if it's so important. What's free inquiry? Are these the important concepts in the world that you do not find in the Bible? you almost scared me.

This is just you making up stuff. Who told you that there are 66 books? Who says they're one theme? Have you forgotten the parent religion Judaism and the other religion Islam?

take out your Bible and count the number of books. You should find 66books. If they are not, please go to the nearest bookshop and purchase a good Bible. The theme of the Bible is Jesus Christ, the salvation of the world, have you actually read the whole Bible? I've not forgotten 'Judaism', don't understand your mention of islam.

What's the relevance?

the relevance is that people do not read the same book everyday for years, a lifetime, except the book is special or out of the ordinary. Is there any book that you have that you read every day?

You automatically absolve God of all blame. Why did he not teach man about the devil? Of course don't dwell on it. Run from it.

the Bible talks so much about the devil, what more do you want to hear about him, his birthday? i said i was not dwelling on discussing about man having a spirit or heart, different from his brain, remember? And i gave my reasons, there's nothing to run away from, i'm here by God's grace.
In case you're referring to Adam, who says Adam was not aware of the devil? Adam was perfectly aware of his actions. We're not told of all of Adam's discussions and fellowship with God, are we. We're simply given a history of why we are the way we are. And i love God for been so proactive in the writings. He shows us the way forward, the escape route, and every one of us can take that Route. That route is Jesus Christ.

@thehomer

He ruled wherever there were humans, animal and birds. Please read your own quote and don't deny yourself and your Bible. Read Dan 2:38.

Daniel 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
If there were children of men in South Africa, China, Japan, Australia, North America and South America that Nebuchadnezzar was aware of, then it's 100% safe to say that he ruled there. I believe that's what you implied?

Of course. You're still making stuff up. It seems you wish to redefine what an empire is. Just force whatever you have to fit your preconceived "prophesy".

i see you could not fault the tallying fulfillment of the prophecy. It's not my fault that the prophecy is so accurate. it's divine, that's one reason why the Bible is to be believed as divine. The book of Daniel contains many more prophecies, so also the other books of Scripture. Call it empire, kingdom, government, country, realm, domain, even estate. They all still fit the fulfilled prophecy. The passage didn't even call it an empire? i felt it was more common and may help your research to rather refer to the Babylonian empire, instead of the other words like 'kingdom' or 'government'. Also, the fact that the image was made of different materials (gold, silver, brass, iron, clay) should suggest to you that the different empires/kingdoms would operate in different strengths and methods.

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@thehomerOkay, thanks for your patience. As to your 'evading' query, well it's up to you, or better still "that's fine". i believe that i've answered you, maybe you don't like my answer as usual. It's like someone asking me 'what's your name?' It's at my discretion that i'll answer the question as simple as it sounds, especially when the question is not too relevant. You're asking why don't God for instance punish a sinner by sending him to jail or doing community service(A) instead of killing him(B). You believe A is a better option than B, and i've told you there are other options, and different marking schemes. Why for instance have you turned a blind eye on the option of forgiving the repentant sinner which God does and is still doing? Why do you fail to see beyond you and i agreeing together? I've told you that our agreement or disagreement is not what matters but God's stand/standard.
Proverb 11:21  Though hand join in hand, the wicked shall not be unpunished: but the seed of the righteous shall be delivered.
Have used different scenarios, models and examples(that's what most 'science' is based on) to show you that humans have varying and changing values, standards and judgements even in little time frames and dependent on person and place. Do begin to realise that humans are not robots or computers, the same input doesn't always produce the same output.

Actually, I'm not the only one that believes that with regards to certain crimes, A is better than B. You seem to agree with me too but have decided not to say so. Human values, standards and judgements have been getting better unlike God's values and judgements which have been static and atrocious.

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Human standards are not dependable, because again, one man's poison is another's meat. Rulers, heads, governments change. they determine standards, so the law/standards become subject to the dictates of who's presently in charge. One man thinks its okay to have marry anyone, the other doesn't. One man thinks a person should not have more than a certain amount of property, the other doesn't. One man thinks sleeping with animals is a hideous crime, the other thinks its his right. One man thinks the rich should be robbed/milked to feed others, the other man doesn't. one man thinks women should not be educated, the other doesn't. At the end, we're not all agreed on what's right and what's wrong. But when we're all looking at the same thing, coming from God i.e the Word of God, His Word guides us. His Word is the final arbiter showing us what is truly wrong/right.
it's like a set of people seeking employment. they need to know what the organization requires, so that they can prepare and present themselves in line with what is required. In this case, the organisation is Heaven. Anyone who wants to get to heaven wants to do the right/good. It's not each individual's feelings of what is good or bad that matters, but the Owner of Heaven's criteria. that's why we need His standards to guide us, so that we don't come up on interview day with the wrong requirements.

You have simply evaded the question which is how does God's standard guide us? Do you have examples of this? So if according to God's standard, one should go about killing people of other tribes and keeping their young female children, is this an appropriate standard to follow?

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I've addressed this above. After this short time on earth, there's an endless eternity to follow. not only that, we live on God's earth and are God's creatures so He's the boss, not 'humanity'.

Sorry but God is not the boss. If you think he is, go out and beg your "boss" to heal some of the amputees around. Or you can call on God to send his bill for rent.

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humanity as a whole abhors slavery? you're lying here. Many others are of another opinion. If you live in nigeria for instance, you might see or hear of slaves. because they call them some other glorified or'humane' name doesn't mean they are not. Many world leaders would forever keep their citizens in perpetual slavery for the love of money and power.
SLAVE: 1.  somebody forced to work for another: somebody who is forced to work for somebody else for no payment and is regarded as the property of that person
2.  dominated person: somebody who is dominated by somebody or by something
3.  somebody accepting another's rule: somebody who meekly accepts being ruled by somebody else
4.  very hard worker: somebody who works hard, in bad conditions, and for low pay
Microsoft® Encarta® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

No [b]you [/b]are lying. When I'm speaking of slavery, I'm speaking of the first definition there which also includes the regard of a person as property.

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I don't understand your "God advices us on how to treat slaves" part.

This shows that you have not read your Bible properly. Please read Exodus 21:4 - 6 then read Leviticus 25:44 - 46

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Can you be more specific? i've said and will say again that it's either "you do not understand what you've read, or you're looking from the wrong perspective". It'll help you to realise that the world is not in a state of utopia. You can't put tongue in cheek and say that God's people should not have a military/army/defence. Or that there should be no judgement or punishment but forgiveness unlimited since God is a loving and merciful God. that's a very poor understanding of God. God is also just and righteous. When God says 'thou shalt not kill', you should know He's for instance not saying don't kill plants and animals for food or something. he's not saying don't kill cockroaches and mosquitoes, rats and lizards in your living room. He's saying do not kill your fellow human being, that is of your own volition, irrespective of what he does, he has a right to life like you, you do not own him, neither can you create him. this is different from a case of judgement. The Israelites didn't take judgement to their hands like jungle people. Judgement was decided by judges. Judgement is different from personal revenge or will. Judgement involved judges and witnesses, and was approved by God. Today, in our law courts, i'm aware that it's not a crime to kill another in the case of self defence?
i think genocide is a crime? if it is, then the Israelites cannot be accused of commiting a crime. One, because it was not a crime by law until 1944 or so. Two, because they were ordered by the law giver Himself i.e they had express permission to carry out judgement on the said people. If you want to, we can discuss more/expressly on these 'crimes' with you making definite pointings, maybe in another thread?

Were the Canaanites and the Perizzites plants or animals? What are you trying to justify? So according to you, if something was not declared as a crime according to the international courts, then it's not a crime? Your second statement shows a dangerous form of thinking. So if God asked you to kill your neighbour who happened to be a Hindu, will you kill him? Since according to you your God is the law giver not his.

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As usual, we have different/varying human systems from place to place and country to country, like the Barbarian system, the hitler system, the Gaddaffi system, the MEND system, the Nigerian system, the UN system etc. The best of human system usually has its roots in the Bible by the way.

When I say human system, I'm talking about the universal declaration of human rights. It is generally accepted. Actually, it's the worst of humanity that we often find in the Bible. Think of it. Genocide, murder, incest, rape, human sacrifice etc. It's all there in your Bible.

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Do you know how many nigerian men own their wives and daughters legally?
Do you know that some governments own their citizens?

You appear to be bearing false witness here. Please when is it legal to own wives and daughters? I just pointed out to you that owning people is illegal so who are these Nigerians that own other people? And please name three governments that own their citizens.

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You like to ask a lot of questions all at once sha, sorry you. It's the state of the fallen man, he's confused until Jesus brings him real peace. While i can answer all these questions, i know more will continue to come from you. the only One who truly satisfies is God, He's the only One whom you can drink from and thirst no more. Like they say, human needs are insatiable. We've talked a bit about judgement and punishment. God wants repentance and forgiveness, he offers you repentance and forgiveness. i've told you, this world is not a utopia, people die, people fight. If God says kill everybody, you complain. If He says spare some, you still complain. Even if He says don't kill again till judgement day, you're still complaining.
When victors spare captives, it's not only for marriage or to sleep with them. i understand the society we live in and the way they think. Naaman in the Bible, (a syrian i think) had a female captive, joseph was a slave in a strange land. So also, Esther, Daniel and his three friends. All these people were not sleeping toys or something as you may be thinking. You need a dip in the blood of Jesus and a renewed mind.

Wow. This is just a horrible song and dance that you're performing here. I pointed out to you a clear case of genocide and child abuse ordered by God and you're talking about Jesus bringing peace? Do you not know that it was your God that ordered these very same atrocities? Please stop justifying such barbaric behaviour.

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stop being chidish. It was an explanation.

No it wasn't. It was a terrible comparison. We don't compare physical objects to ethical behaviour. Go back and read what you wrote.

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No, i don't think that because science doesn't do 100% proofs makes it incorrect. I said that your reason why the solar system is the way it currently is, is so unscience. It's so full of probabilities, suppositions and hypothesis. I told you to refresh yourself on the meaning of the words i highlighted from your link. The whole story you treasure is popularly called by scientists themselves as  nebular HYPOTHESIS. So many 'may have's, 'suggest that's, 'thought to's. Nothing committed or definite. We can't build the reason why the solar system is the way it currently is on simulations brova. We need evidence. Plus don't be dumb enough to think that all scientists don't believe in God. Most of those devices, thought processes and laboratories are done and occupied by people who believe that a God exists and who are honest enough to tell us that their works are simulations, hypothesis and models and estimated projections. Why you choose to make an idol of them is what is embarrasing. Talking about understanding how science works? i thank God i'm no stranger, and we have practising scientists who believe in God on this board aplenty.

So probabilities are unscientific? It seems you're yet to learn of how particles behave in a probabilistic fashion. Sorry but there are numerous committed and definite facts that lead to that conclusion e.g the facts of gravity and of the nuclear fusion of the sun.
It seems you do not understand how important and accurate simulations can be. I'll advice you to look it up.
I never said anything about scientists not believing in God. In fact that should give you a pause with the outrageous claims you're making.

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@thehomerScience says the most recent time is the holocene epoch(estimated to be about 11500 years ago) when 'modern humans evolved'. That 'modern human' term refers to our human race? i'm not oblivious to the ape evolution, 'lucy' thing and all, i trace myself to Adam not some 'lucy'. I know you'll have to do some research to confirm in case you do not know of these things, no problem. But we all have Bible, and mine also has Genesis. Please show us where in Genesis, the Bible says human beings were around 'for ONLY 6000 years', thank you.

Please what scientific work are you quoting? Could you please present a link? It appears that you are simply making absurd claims and attributing them to science. This is a bad tactic.

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My exact reasons for putting up the age of man! you don't understand what i'm saying. It's not about man been 200years old, or 20000years old, or 2million years old. It's about how the processes of what happened before you were born, before anyone was born, are been portrayed as if it happened last night on CNN live. These things are conjectures, hypotheses, suggestions, that's the point i'm trying to make obvious to you. i understand and studied these things, i'm not here on whether it's false or true. i'm telling you the bases/foundations are not that solid. The Word of God is surer.

No one portrays them as though it happened last night. Usually documentaries try to present you with analogies of the time scales involved. Besides, the fact that we were not present doesn't mean that we cannot know what happened.
The "word" of God is actually not surer due to the internal inconsistencies and other things that have been shown. In other cases, it's just plain wrong.

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Go and read geography. If they earth deviated/went closer to the moon, the whole earth would be flooded ending human life. If the earth reduced it's speed of rotation, the plants would be exposed to the sun for longer periods, will be scorched and die Animals will suffer and die of thirst, humans will not eat again. If the earth deviated say 45⁰, the poles will melt and flood the earth and so on and forth. If you do not agree on this things, sorry i can't help you here. Maybe you'll need some geography textbooks and all.

John 3:12  If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
The point was and is that there's a power that holds/sustains the earth, the solar system, even the whole universe. It is the power of God, not chance, not a big bang. there's a God that has set the earth in its orbit and it can not of it's own accord wander off that orbit.
Job 38:1  Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:4  Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:9  When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddling band for it,
Job 38:10  And broke up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
Job 38:11  And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?
Job 38:14  It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.

Isaiah 40:21  Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?
Isaiah 40:22  It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

My goodness now you're really showing your misunderstanding. How can the earth go closer to the moon? Do you not realize that the moon and the earth are bound by gravitational forces?
Also, your claim that if the earth's distance varied by as much as the distance between the earth and the moon is really laughable. Do you know that the earth's orbit is elliptical and it varies by more than 4 million km? Compare this to the distance to the moon which is about 384,000 km. Wow. Just go and read your geography book.
Also, I addressed this clay reference that you're making above in another thread that both of us posted on. Please stop repeating the same errors over and over again.

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And what is that thing that has been seen by a telescope that i'm denying? I'll be good to remind you AGAIN that i said "No one can observe stars forming and getting annihilated regularly through a telescope" the site said the below, YES or NO?AGAIN, you said people "stars form and get annihilated regularly". I rest my case on this.

You have chosen to quote mine. Here's the page with the relevant part below.

Wikipedia:
[size=14pt]Telescope Observation[/size]

The true nature of the supernova remained obscure for some time. Observers slowly came to recognize a class of stars that undergo long-term periodic fluctuations in luminosity. Both John Russell Hind in 1848 and Norman Pogson in 1863 had charted stars that underwent sudden changes in brightness. However these received little attention from the astronomical community. Finally, in 1866, English astronomer William Huggins made the first spectroscopic observations of a nova, discovering lines of hydrogen in the unusual spectrum of the recurrent nova T Coronae Borealis. Huggins proposed a cataclysmic explosion as the underlying mechanism, and his efforts drew interest from other astronomers.
Animation showing R.A. and Dec. of supernovae discovered since 1885. Some recent survey contributions are highlighted in color.

In 1885, a nova-like outburst was observed in the direction of the Andromeda galaxy by Ernst Hartwig in Estonia. S Andromedae increased to 6th magnitude, outshining the entire nucleus of the galaxy, then faded in a manner much like a nova. In 1917, George W. Ritchey measured the distance to the Andromeda galaxy and discovered it lay much further than had previously been thought. This meant that S Andromedae, which did not just lie along the line of sight to the galaxy but had actually resided in the nucleus, released a much greater amount of energy than was typical for a nova.

Early work on this new category of nova was performed during the 1930s by Walter Baade and Fritz Zwicky at Mount Wilson Observatory. They identified S Andromedae, what they considered a typical supernova, as an explosive event that released radiation approximately equal to the Sun's total energy output for 107 years. They decided to call this new class of cataclysmic variables super-novae, and postulated that the energy was generated by the gravitational collapse of ordinary stars into neutron stars.[23] The name super-novae was first used in a 1931 lecture at Caltech by Zwicky, then used publicly in 1933 at a meeting of the American Physical Society. By 1938, the hyphen had been lost and the modern name was in use.

Although supernova are relatively rare events, occurring on average about once a century in the Milky Way, observations of distant galaxies allowed supernovae to be discovered and examined more frequently. The first supernova detection patrol was begun by Zwicky in 1933. He was joined by Josef J. Johnson from Caltech in 1936. Using a 45-cm Schmidt telescope at Palomar observatory, they discovered twelve new supernovae within three years by comparing new photographic plates to reference images of extragalactic regions.

In 1938, Walter Baade became the first astronomer to identify a nebula as a supernova remnant when he suggested that the Crab Nebula was the remains of SN 1054. He noted that, while it had the appearance of a planetary nebula, the measured velocity of expansion was much too large to belong to that classification. During the same year, Baade first proposed the use of the Type Ia supernova as a secondary distance indicator in 1938. Later, the work of Allan Sandage and Gustav Tammann helped refine the process so that Type Ia supernovae became a type of standard candle for measuring large distances across the cosmos.

The first spectral classification of these distant supernova was performed by Rudolph Minkowski in 1941. He categorized them into two types, based on whether or not lines of the element hydrogen appeared in the supernova spectrum. Zwicky later proposed additional types III, IV, and V, although these are no longer used and now appear to be associated with single peculiar supernova types. Further sub-division of the spectra categories resulted in the modern supernova classification scheme.

In the aftermath of the Second World War, Fred Hoyle worked on the problem of how the various observed elements in the universe were produced. In 1946 he proposed that a massive star could generate the necessary thermonuclear reactions, and the nuclear reactions of heavy elements were responsible for the removal of energy necessary for a gravitational collapse to occur. The collapsing star became rotationally unstable, and produced an explosive expulsion of elements that were distributed into interstellar space. The concept that rapid nuclear fusion was the source of energy for a supernova explosion was developed by Hoyle and William Fowler during the 1960s.

The first computer-controlled search for supernovae was begun in the 1960s at Northwestern University. They built a 24-inch telescope at Corralitos Observatory in New Mexico that could be repositioned under computer control. The telescope displayed a new galaxy each minute, with observers checking the view on a television screen. By this means, they discovered 14 supernovae over a period of two years.

This entire section gives the lie to your claim. If you visited the page, I don't think you could have missed it. So are you having a selective recall or are you simply lying about something that can be easily verified?

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thehomer, you skipped six definitions, SIX. You chose to suit your bias in a bid to prove that you don't have faith. Love it or hate it, EVERY MAN has faith. God gave you faith.
Romans 12:3  For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

Are you not familiar with the concept that a single word can have multiple meanings depending on the context? I presented you with the definition that suited the context to which I was referring.

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they've provided it, it's just that you've failed to perceive it. Faith is the medium, the sense organ to the spiritual, and ofcourse to God.

Hebrews 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God MUST believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
In that realm, believing is seeing. Billions believe and see that there's a God. You too can believe, you have faith. you've demonstrated your faith/belief in science and in figures like TRILLIONS of years and 7100 LIGHT YEARS away. God's not that far.
Act 17:27  That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
Act 17:28  For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

So here faith is a medium and a sense organ?

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Faith, the EVIDENCE of things not seen, remember?

And here faith is evidence? Please can you point me to any English Language dictionary that supports any of these proposals of yours?

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So humane punishment is inhumane punishment, you're a genius, love.

Now this is an inability to read. Here let me quote myself on what I said. Please read it carefully this time. I must be prescient. I even warned of this in that post yet you misquoted me. Maybe I should start making prophesies.

thehomer:
Have you not realized that a humane punishment is a punishment and an inhumane punishment is also a punishment? Please do yourself a favour and actually read what I post.

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Compare michael jackson's album selling to the Word, the Word. Don't lose precious focus here. Thank God for michael's death that sort of resurged his popularity. he was already waning even when still alive. Can you measure with a book more than 2000years old and still waxing strong[b]ER[/b]. Compare the translations, the followership, the nations, and generations.

Isaiah 6:3  And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.

If a book that has sold the most copies is divine, why is an album that has sold the most copies not divine? According to you  divinity of objects is decided in a major part by the number of sales.

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Do you have them with you?

No I don't but you can look them up.

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It says that God can cure leprosy, and did cure leprosy both in the old and new testament.

How are you supposed to go about doing that? Is it by taking a drug or by playing with animal blood?

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Sorry, did i say it was?

No you didn't. I'm pointing out that that was a more important factor that was involved in shaping the world.

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What's capitalism again? i expect the average person to know this if it's so important. What's free inquiry? Are these the important concepts in the world that you do not find in the Bible? you almost scared me.

Look them up. I can't do all your work for you. Yes they are important concepts and we do not find them in the Bible.

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take out your Bible and count the number of books. You should find 66books. If they are not, please go to the nearest bookshop and purchase a good Bible. The theme of the Bible is Jesus Christ, the salvation of the world, have you actually read the whole Bible? I've not forgotten 'Judaism', don't understand your mention of islam.

So a True Bible is one with 66 books? According to you the Bibles with apocryphal texts are false Bibles? You are also ignoring the points I raised with you previously that you have tried to ignore on the important texts that were ignored. Judaism and Islam also present alternative themes centered around similar characters.

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the relevance is that people do not read the same book everyday for years, a lifetime, except the book is special or out of the ordinary. Is there any book that you have that you read every day?

By this reasoning, the Qur'an the Torah and many other religious texts are special or out of the ordinary.

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the Bible talks so much about the devil, what more do you want to hear about him, his birthday? i said i was not dwelling on discussing about man having a spirit or heart, different from his brain, remember? And i gave my reasons, there's nothing to run away from, i'm here by God's grace.
In case you're referring to Adam, who says Adam was not aware of the devil? Adam was perfectly aware of his actions. We're not told of all of Adam's discussions and fellowship with God, are we. We're simply given a history of why we are the way we are. And i love God for been so proactive in the writings. He shows us the way forward, the escape route, and every one of us can take that Route. That route is Jesus Christ.

Why did he not warn Adam who was naive?
Of course you were not because it was just a myth that you have chosen to hold strongly over and above other myths.

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@thehomerDaniel 2:38 And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath he given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold.
If there were children of men in South Africa, China, Japan, Australia, North America and South America that Nebuchadnezzar was aware of, then it's 100% safe to say that he ruled there. I believe that's what you implied?

No. What I'm saying is that people and animal lived in these other places but Nebuchadnezzer did not rule over them. Whether or not he was aware of them is irrelevant because if he did not rule over them, then the Bible was wrong.

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i see you could not fault the tallying fulfillment of the prophecy. It's not my fault that the prophecy is so accurate. it's divine, that's one reason why the Bible is to be believed as divine. The book of Daniel contains many more prophecies, so also the other books of Scripture. Call it empire, kingdom, government, country, realm, domain, even estate. They all still fit the fulfilled prophecy. The passage didn't even call it an empire? i felt it was more common and may help your research to rather refer to the Babylonian empire, instead of the other words like 'kingdom' or 'government'. Also, the fact that the image was made of different materials (gold, silver, brass, iron, clay) should suggest to you that the different empires/kingdoms would operate in different strengths and methods.

This is another major problem with people who wish to believe on faith. Even when the evidence is right before their eyes, they still deny it. If you call that an accurate prophesy, then I wonder what it will take for a prophesy to be inaccurate because even the usual beginning of the year prophesies made by various religious people (Christians, pagans, weird religions, etc) are more accurate than this.

@thehomer

Actually, I'm not the only one that believes that with regards to certain crimes, A is better than B. You seem to agree with me too but have decided not to say so. Human values, standards and judgements have been getting better unlike God's values and judgements which have been static and atrocious.

Why for instance have you turned a blind eye on the option of forgiving the repentant sinner which God does and is still doing? When it's convenient you'll say God's values are static, when it's not you'll say God has changed. Which levels na, i tire for you o?
Luke 9:56  For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
1Timothy 1:15  This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

You have simply evaded the question which is how does God's standard guide us? Do you have examples of this? So if according to God's standard, one should go about killing people of other tribes and keeping their young female children, is this an appropriate standard to follow?

God's standard is found in His word, the Holy Bible from Genesis to Revelation. The Bible shows us what is righteous and what is unrighteous. It's the guiding light for us as humans. Humans have differing views. I can say the way is Right, you may say the way is Left. We may both be wrong. But God is omniscience and has created us. If He says the way is UP, that's guidance, and it'll be wisdom to follow. God has given a universal law to all men and for all time. He says Love your neighbour as yourself. His standard is the best to follow.
Matthew 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Matthew 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Sorry but God is not the boss. If you think he is, go out and beg your "boss" to heal some of the amputees around. Or you can call on God to send his bill for rent.

Sorry, i don't think god is the boss, I know that He is the Boss. He gives us life and can take it when He chooses to. He gives us the Sun, the moon and the rain. He heals us of sicknesses as well when we call on Him. I wonder the connection between atheists, amputees and evolution, it's so close. Well god can do anything and everything. He's done greater things than healing amputee, not sure if you'd believe on Him if He healed an amputee btw. He created the whole universe, He parted the sea, He raised the dead, He raises us from spiritual death into life. What greater miracle can be above these? He showed prophet Ezekiel how dry bones were to be joined together, made alive and raised as a great army. He touched a man whose ear had been cut off and healed him, he healed the lame. There's nothing too hard for God.
Jeremiah 32:17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:

No you are lying. When I'm speaking of slavery, I'm speaking of the first definition there which also includes the regard of a person as property.

it's strange the way you love to ignore others, and only choose what seems to suit your fantasies and notions.

This shows that you have not read your Bible properly. Please read Exodus 21:4 - 6 then read Leviticus 25:44 - 46

i said that i didn't understand what you said/meant, not that i didn't understand a Bible passage, and thanks for been more specific than your usual self. i've read the passages of which you speak. You ought to know by now that the world is not in a perfect state. Infact, God is the first to say so. And He's said also that it can't be perfect until Jesus comes to reign. There'll continue to be different classes of people, there'll be poor people, sick people, wicked people and so on. There has to be control measures until the cure comes, and the control measures for having servants is what is presented in those two passages you quoted. You can't rule out boss and subordinate, employer and employee, master and servant, leader and follower etc. Today, when people mention slavery(they hypocritically wouldn't mention servant), we're quick to think of the way the white took africans as slaves and maltreated them and all that. What you fail to understand is that not all servants are treated like that. For one reason or the other, people till date still volunteer massively to be under others. That's why for example we have a lot of unemployed people, they all wish to work under someone whatever title you call it. Many nigerians queue up daily at the embassies, and would rather go and 'slave' in America or someplace than stay here in nigeria. Some servants are enjoying more than some children, more than some wives. We have examples of many servants in the Bible, majority of them do not depict the picture you seek to paint. Almost every good one in scripture was a servant one way or the other btw.
Genesis 24:2  And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh:
Exodus 33:11  And the LORD spoke unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Number 11:28  And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
Ruth 2:5  Then said Boaz unto his servant that was set over the reapers, Whose damsel is this?
1Kings 16:9  And his servant Zimri, captain of half his chariots, conspired against him, as he was in Tirzah, drinking himself drunk in the house of Arza steward of his house in Tirzah
And so many more examples like Elisha the servant of Elijah, and the disciples the servants of Christ, even Jesus Himself was a servant. After Christ's first coming, what does he expect in our Master to servant relationships, see below.
Matthew 20:27  And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Luke 7:3  And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant
1Corinthians 7:22  For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant
Colossians 4:1  Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.

Were the Canaanites and the Perizzites plants or animals? What are you trying to justify?

No, they were not. they were under divine judgement, and the executors in this case were the Israelites. it could easily have been fire and brimestone like in Sodom, or an angel, or famine, or pestilence, or death, or satan. their cup of iniquity was full and they were punished by God, it was not a personal matter between a man and his neighbour.
Genesis 15:16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
Gen 15:18  In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 15:19  The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
Gen 15:20  And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
Gen 15:21  And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
Do not let your own cup of sin get full before you repent, you're being weighed. Repent and receive God's grace, pardon and forgiveness.

So according to you, if something was not declared as a crime according to the international courts, then it's not a crime?

Where there's no law, there's no sin. Plus it was judgement.

Your second statement shows a dangerous form of thinking. So if God asked you to kill your neighbour who happened to be a Hindu, will you kill him? Since according to you your God is the law giver not his.

Here's God's law, so that we are clear on this.
Matthew 19:19  Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
1Timothy 2:3  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Timothy 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2Peter 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

When I say human system, I'm talking about the universal declaration of human rights. It is generally accepted. Actually, it's the worst of humanity that we often find in the Bible. Think of it. Genocide, murder, Inbreeding, violation, human sacrifice etc. It's all there in your Bible.

Peace, true peace, love, real love, joy, righteousness are what God wants from us, and what we can all get from His word.

Please when is it legal to own wives and daughters? I just pointed out to you that owning people is illegal so who are these Nigerians that own other people? And please name three governments that own their citizens.

We have cultures and marriages in nigeria where the children are owned by the parents and cannot be released to an outsider without proper payment and observance of customs. We have marriages in nigeria where the husband demonstrates total ownership of the wife. he dictates where she goes and when, if she works or not and where, etc. Do you live in nigeria?

Wow. This is just a horrible song and dance that you're performing here. I pointed out to you a clear case of genocide and child abuse ordered by God and you're talking about Jesus bringing peace? Do you not know that it was your God that ordered these very same atrocities? Please stop justifying such barbaric behaviour.

It's not dance and song but a portrayal of the 'horrible' lifestyle you live. A life without Jesus Christ is a life in crises and chaos. i'm telling you the truth, you'll continue to spill out questions and questions all your life, except you have Jesus the answer. Nothing can truly satisfy you except Him. even if all your questions were well answered one by one, multitudes of others will still continue to arise. What is child abuse, you tried to paint a pedophilic picture, talking about virgins, priests, and ages. you're trying to paint the picture that's often painted in islam, and i showed you examples of young slaves in scriptures who all lived decent lives, and even later became great people in their society.

No it wasn't. It was a terrible comparison. We don't compare physical objects to ethical behaviour. Go back and read what you wrote.

Suit yourself if it makes you glad. btw, who are 'we'? as in "We don't compare". We over here, we can compare physical objects and behaviour. We do that to explain and express. Man relates more with what he can see, and most times the unseen can be more easily grasped with reference to descriptions and comparison.
WE talk of 'peace like a river', 'joy like a fountain', 'Spirit like a dove', 'Jesus the Rock', 'cruel as the grave'. 'heart of stone', 'the word lie fire' etc.

So probabilities are unscientific? It seems you're yet to learn of how particles behave in a probabilistic fashion. Sorry but there are numerous committed and definite facts that lead to that conclusion e.g the facts of gravity and of the nuclear fusion of the sun.
It seems you do not understand how important and accurate simulations can be. I'll advice you to look it up.
I never said anything about scientists not believing in God. In fact that should give you a pause with the outrageous claims you're making.

Probabilities are part of unscientific, what you are laying down is what you say is responsible for the earth. Your claim is laid on SO MUCH supposition, probability and hypothesis. so full of probabilities, suppositions and hypothesis
Probability: something likely to happen: something that is likely to happen or exist
Supposition: something that it is suggested might be true, or that is accepted as true on the basis of some evidence but without proof
Hypothesis: theory needing investigation: a tentative explanation for a phenomenon, used as a basis for further investigation
you don't beat your chest at that and talk of "the reason why the solar system is the way it currently is"

@thehomer

Please what scientific work are you quoting? Could you please present a link? It appears that you are simply making absurd claims and attributing them to science. This is a bad tactic.

i even thought you knew. Well, check HERE and learn at your convenience for free.
So, Please show us where in Genesis, the Bible says human beings were around 'for ONLY 6000 years', thank you.

No one portrays them as though it happened last night. Usually documentaries try to present you with analogies of the time scales involved. Besides, the fact that we were not present doesn't mean that we cannot know what happened.

YOU do! You claim it like you saw it, whereas These things are conjectures, hypotheses, suggestions, that's the point i'm trying to make obvious to you.

The "word" of God is actually not surer due to the internal inconsistencies and other things that have been shown. In other cases, it's just plain wrong.

2Peter 1:19  We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Psalm 119:89  Forever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

My goodness now you're really showing your misunderstanding. How can the earth go closer to the moon?

By deviation, remember?

Do you not realize that the moon and the earth are bound by gravitational forces?

poor you, even father grandpa Job knew all these 'big deals'
Job 38:10  And broke up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
The earth would not leave its orbits, the waters would not flood the earth, the planet venus would not come bumping into earth because God has set it so, He has put limits and 'doors' to enforce it. i like the cute name anyway, "gravitational forces"

Also, your claim that if the earth's distance varied by as much as the distance between the earth and the moon is really laughable. Do you know that the earth's orbit is elliptical and it varies by more than 4 million km? Compare this to the distance to the moon which is about 384,000 km. Wow. Just go and read your geography book.

vary vary? i thought this was what i said? "If they earth deviated/went closer to the moon, the whole earth would be flooded ending human life."  What should be laughable is that, in the nebular hypothesis, planets in the solar system used to exchange position but now they don't. Keep laughing, it's good for your health.

Also, I addressed this clay reference that you're making above in another thread that both of us posted on. Please stop repeating the same errors over and over again.

spare me sir. There's no hiding or doubt that God had revealed early to man that the earth had the globe shape. It's unmistakable in the Word, the idea's obvious and the revelation divine. Maybe if they didn't have words like geoid, elliptical and co, doesn't take away that the revelation was there.
Job 38:1  Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:4  Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:9  When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddling band for it,
Job 38:14  It is turned as clay to the sea[/b]l; and they stand as a garment.
Isaiah 40:22  It is he that sitteth upon [b]the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
The 'swaddle' in that same chapter gives an impression of wrapping ROUND. the 'turned' is an indication of the earth's rotation. And the 'circle' in Isaiah is an out of this world icing in the cake.

You have chosen to quote mine. Here's the page with the relevant part below.

i thought you were the one i was discussing with? You said we can observe stars forming and getting annihilated regularly through a telescope, i said no we cannot. The wiki link prove we cannot observe stars forming and getting annihilated regularly through a telescope. Have been highlighting that word all along, but it seemed you were more obssessed with your link than anything else. Let me show you again from that link,

Observers slowly came to recognize a class of stars that undergo long-term periodic fluctuations in luminosity.
In 1885, a nova-like outburst was observed in the direction of the Andromeda galaxy, In 1917, George W. Ritchey measured the distance to the Andromeda galaxy
they discovered 14 supernovae over a period of two years.

meanwhile, supernova is supposed to be the star annihilation part, what about the star formation.

Are you not familiar with the concept that a single word can have multiple meanings depending on the context? I presented you with the definition that suited the context to which I was referring.

Go and learn the meaning of the word 'hypocrisy'. Do you remember when we checked on 'faith' and recently 'slavery'? Are you familiar with the concept that a sentence can have multiple meanings?

So here faith is a medium and a sense organ?
And here faith is evidence? Please can you point me to any English Language dictionary that supports any of these proposals of yours?

Learn in context to note the difference between a definition and additional explanation. You gave me a link, recall? THIS.

Now this is an inability to read. Here let me quote myself on what I said. Please read it carefully this time. I must be prescient. I even warned of this in that post yet you misquoted me. Maybe I should start making prophesies.
Have you not realized that a humane punishment is a punishment and an inhumane punishment is also a punishment? Please do yourself a favour and actually read what I post.

so you're not a genius afterall. In Mathematics, it's called 'TRANSITIVE PROPERTY', repeat it until it sticks. It says when a=b, and b=c, then a=c. (QED and clap for me)
a humane punishment is a punishment , an inhumane punishment is also a punishment, So humane punishment is inhumane punishment.
You were the one trying to prove that weakness was weakness, and foolishness was foolishness, but ended up saying punishment is punishment.

If a book that has sold the most copies is divine, why is an album that has sold the most copies not divine? According to you  divinity of objects is decided in a major part by the number of sales.

It's not divine because it won't last. It's just for a short period. It's not number one for years, it's not even an undisputed number one. the Bible is number one till tomorrow and it's spread over countries and peoples. i didn't say popularity was a major part, stop twisting my words. I said it's popularity was an undeniable, undisputable fact, and that it was ONE of the reasons why i believed it to be divine. Are you forgetful, or dishonestly selective?

No I don't but you can look them up.

Where?

How are you supposed to go about doing that? Is it by taking a drug or by playing with animal blood?

None of the above. What the scriptures record is divine healing. See the case of Moses, Miriam and Naaman.

Matthew 8:2  And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mat 8:3  And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
Mat 8:4  And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, show thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

No you didn't. I'm pointing out that that was a more important factor that was involved in shaping the world. Look them up. I can't do all your work for you. Yes they are important concepts and we do not find them in the Bible.

hmm, democracy, capitalism and free enquiry. you've failed to show me the concepts involved in this three terms, and how they're the best for the world. it's one thing for something to shape the world or history. It's another for it to be the best for the world. Obviously they're not the best as the world is still in fighting, sorrow, pain, loss, meltdown and so forth. i await your clear concepts, i'll show you from the Bible how best practises and attitudes seen in scripture have influenced any good seen in civilization from those concepts.

So a True Bible is one with 66 books? According to you the Bibles with apocryphal texts are false Bibles? You are also ignoring the points I raised with you previously that you have tried to ignore on the important texts that were ignored. Judaism and Islam also present alternative themes centered around similar characters.

Don't you know? Go to any bookstore and get a good bible, it contains 66books. that's the Bible i've been extolling the virtues all this while na, not the ones only found in museums, cults and links. the true Word is not bound by limitations. we've talked on this and i even quoted scriptures, remember?

By this reasoning, the Qur'an the Torah and many other religious texts are special or out of the ordinary.

OF COURSE! You thought they were ordinary books? they are spiritual. there are many magical books as well and incantations that are not ordinary. You think the devil is ordinary?  That doesn't make them divine anyway? The Bible is divine.

Why did he not warn Adam who was naive?

Who says Adam was naive. i think he was more intelligent/shrewd than you may ever be.

Of course you were not because it was just a myth that you have chosen to hold strongly over and above other myths.

What are you talking of? i said " i was not dwelling on discussing about man having a spirit or heart, different from his brain, remember?"

No. What I'm saying is that people and animal lived in these other places but Nebuchadnezzer did not rule over them. Whether or not he was aware of them is irrelevant because if he did not rule over them, then the Bible was wrong.

Well, you may have to prove it, it's up to you. the Bible said it, i believe it and that settles it for me. But seeing you feel otherwise, you're free to prove that people lived in those places and that they were not under Nebuchadnezzar's government.

This is another major problem with people who wish to believe on faith. Even when the evidence is right before their eyes, they still deny it. If you call that an accurate prophesy, then I wonder what it will take for a prophesy to be inaccurate because even the usual beginning of the year prophesies made by various religious people (Christians, pagans, weird religions, etc) are more accurate than this.

You could be more specific as to how the prophecy is false and the fulfilment inaccurate. Quote the verses and say what happened in the stead of the interpretation given, thanks.
You're free to believe in Jesus, he said If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.. you've shown a lot of thirst and faith, what you need to do is come to Jesus. He'll save you.

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@thehomerWhy for instance have you turned a blind eye on the option of forgiving the repentant sinner which God does and is still doing? When it's convenient you'll say God's values are static, when it's not you'll say God has changed. Which levels na, i tire for you o?
Luke 9:56  For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.
1Timothy 1:15  This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. God's standard is found in His word, the Holy Bible from Genesis to Revelation. The Bible shows us what is righteous and what is unrighteous. It's the guiding light for us as humans. Humans have differing views. I can say the way is Right, you may say the way is Left. We may both be wrong. But God is omniscience and has created us. If He says the way is UP, that's guidance, and it'll be wisdom to follow. God has given a universal law to all men and for all time. He says Love your neighbour as yourself. His standard is the best to follow.
Matthew 22:39  And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Matthew 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Simply sitting around and forgiving someone who went out and murdered an entire family to steal their plasma tv is not justice. It is an abomination. If God could do this for this person, then why did he still go ahead and commit suicide?
Sorry but even Christians disagree on this so called standard. This is why we can find Christians who oppose slavery and Christians who are in support of a woman's right to have an abortion. This is an indication that God does not sit around and dictate standards.

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Sorry, i don't think god is the boss, I know that He is the Boss. He gives us life and can take it when He chooses to. He gives us the Sun, the moon and the rain. He heals us of sicknesses as well when we call on Him. I wonder the connection between atheists, amputees and evolution, it's so close. Well god can do anything and everything. He's done greater things than healing amputee, not sure if you'd believe on Him if He healed an amputee btw. He created the whole universe, He parted the sea, He raised the dead, He raises us from spiritual death into life. What greater miracle can be above these? He showed prophet Ezekiel how dry bones were to be joined together, made alive and raised as a great army. He touched a man whose ear had been cut off and healed him, he healed the lame. There's nothing too hard for God.
Jeremiah 32:17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:

It seems pretty obvious that healing amputees is too hard for him.

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it's strange the way you love to ignore others, and only choose what seems to suit your fantasies and notions.

Where did I ignore you? I simply pointed out what slavery is.

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i said that i didn't understand what you said/meant, not that i didn't understand a Bible passage, and thanks for been more specific than your usual self. i've read the passages of which you speak. You ought to know by now that the world is not in a perfect state. Infact, God is the first to say so. And He's said also that it can't be perfect until Jesus comes to reign. There'll continue to be different classes of people, there'll be poor people, sick people, wicked people and so on. There has to be control measures until the cure comes, and the control measures for having servants is what is presented in those two passages you quoted. You can't rule out boss and subordinate, employer and employee, master and servant, leader and follower etc. Today, when people mention slavery(they hypocritically wouldn't mention servant), we're quick to think of the way the white took africans as slaves and maltreated them and all that. What you fail to understand is that not all servants are treated like that. For one reason or the other, people till date still volunteer massively to be under others. That's why for example we have a lot of unemployed people, they all wish to work under someone whatever title you call it. Many nigerians queue up daily at the embassies, and would rather go and 'slave' in America or someplace than stay here in nigeria. Some servants are enjoying more than some children, more than some wives. We have examples of many servants in the Bible, majority of them do not depict the picture you seek to paint. Almost every good one in scripture was a servant one way or the other btw.
Genesis 24:2  And Abraham said unto his eldest servant of his house, that ruled over all that he had, Put, I pray thee, thy hand under my thigh:
Exodus 33:11  And the LORD spoke unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend. And he turned again into the camp: but his servant Joshua, the son of Nun, a young man, departed not out of the tabernacle.
Number 11:28  And Joshua the son of Nun, the servant of Moses, one of his young men, answered and said, My lord Moses, forbid them.
Ruth 2:5  Then said Boaz unto his servant that was set over the reapers, Whose damsel is this?
1Kings 16:9  And his servant Zimri, captain of half his chariots, conspired against him, as he was in Tirzah, drinking himself drunk in the house of Arza steward of his house in Tirzah
And so many more examples like Elisha the servant of Elijah, and the disciples the servants of Christ, even Jesus Himself was a servant. After Christ's first coming, what does he expect in our Master to servant relationships, see below.
Matthew 20:27  And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant:
Luke 7:3  And when he heard of Jesus, he sent unto him the elders of the Jews, beseeching him that he would come and heal his servant
1Corinthians 7:22  For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant
Colossians 4:1  Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.

Wow. A failed attempt at obfuscation. Is this still a good reason for God to allow slavery? A good, just and moral God would not allow slavery. It's really that simple.

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No, they were not. they were under divine judgement, and the executors in this case were the Israelites. it could easily have been fire and brimestone like in Sodom, or an angel, or famine, or pestilence, or death, or satan. their cup of iniquity was full and they were punished by God, it was not a personal matter between a man and his neighbour.
Genesis 15:16  But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.
Gen 15:18  In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
Gen 15:19  The Kenites, and the Kenizzites, and the Kadmonites,
Gen 15:20  And the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Rephaims,
Gen 15:21  And the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.
Do not let your own cup of sin get full before you repent, you're being weighed. Repent and receive God's grace, pardon and forgiveness.

So according to you, a just God with the ability of performing acts of God like hail, gnats, meteorites etc decided to use a certain group of people, make them blood thirsty murderers and advice them to go on a genocide spree? Yet you turn around and claim that this God is good? Why did he not do this himself? What you're saying is that any act is justified if it is commanded by God. Would you kill three people if God commanded you to?

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Where there's no law, there's no sin. Plus it was judgement.

What do you mean by sin?

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Here's God's law, so that we are clear on this.
Matthew 19:19  Honor thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
1Timothy 2:3  For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
1Timothy 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2Peter 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Well make up your mind on the God who ordered such mass murder. Or was it someone else who ordered the genocide? Remember you referred to it as judgement. Well if God had judged these three neigbours of yours and commanded you to kill them will you do it?

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Peace, true peace, love, real love, joy, righteousness are what God wants from us, and what we can all get from His word.

Doesn't sound like it when he is ordering genocide and enslaving young women after of course killing the rest of their people.

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We have cultures and marriages in nigeria where the children are owned by the parents and cannot be released to an outsider without proper payment and observance of customs. We have marriages in nigeria where the husband demonstrates total ownership of the wife. he dictates where she goes and when, if she works or not and where, etc. Do you live in nigeria?

I'm sorry that you do not realize this but in Nigeria, slavery is a crime. See [url=http://www.nigeria-law.org/Criminal%20Code%20Act-PartV.htm#Chapter%2031]here scroll to #369[/url].

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It's not dance and song but a portrayal of the 'horrible' lifestyle you live. A life without Jesus Christ is a life in crises and chaos. i'm telling you the truth, you'll continue to spill out questions and questions all your life, except you have Jesus the answer. Nothing can truly satisfy you except Him. even if all your questions were well answered one by one, multitudes of others will still continue to arise. What is child abuse, you tried to paint a pedophilic picture, talking about virgins, priests, and ages. you're trying to paint the picture that's often painted in islam, and i showed you examples of young slaves in scriptures who all lived decent lives, and even later became great people in their society.

This is really sad. You are actually attempting to defend genocide, slavery and other terrible deeds because according to your Bible, they were ordered by God.

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Suit yourself if it makes you glad. btw, who are 'we'? as in "We don't compare". We over here, we can compare physical objects and behaviour. We do that to explain and express. Man relates more with what he can see, and most times the unseen can be more easily grasped with reference to descriptions and comparison.
WE talk of 'peace like a river', 'joy like a fountain', 'Spirit like a dove', 'Jesus the Rock', 'cruel as the grave'. 'heart of stone', 'the word lie fire' etc.

No you don't. Attempting such a comparison would lead at some point to a sort of equivocation fallacy in attempting to force a particular group of objects into another.

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Probabilities are part of unscientific, what you are laying down is what you say is responsible for the earth. Your claim is laid on SO MUCH supposition, probability and hypothesis. so full of probabilities, suppositions and hypothesis
Probability: something likely to happen: something that is likely to happen or exist
Supposition: something that it is suggested might be true, or that is accepted as true on the basis of some evidence but without proof
Hypothesis: theory needing investigation: a tentative explanation for a phenomenon, used as a basis for further investigation
you don't beat your chest at that and talk of "the reason why the solar system is the way it currently is"

Oh? Actually, with the evidence we do have, it is pretty clear why the solar system is the way it is. And you need to realize that probability plays a very large part in science and actually is a field in mathematics. You need to realize that what has been presented is based on evidence that was directly observed, inferred and calculated.
The fact that scientists use cautious words simply demonstrates their humility. And you need to realize that science does not do proofs. And that is a core reason for such language.

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@thehomeri even thought you knew. Well, check HERE and learn at your convenience for free.
So, Please show us where in Genesis, the Bible says human beings were around 'for ONLY 6000 years', thank you.

Why do I have to be the one to teach you how to read entries? The first link was talking about when humans settled in Rhode Island. The Wikipedia entry was talking about the extinctions caused by modern man. Where does it say that humans suddenly sprung up 10000 years ago? It was not written in Genesis but that is what is implied if it is to be taken as true. This is gotten from calculations based on the Bible stories.

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YOU do! You claim it like you saw it, whereas These things are conjectures, hypotheses, suggestions, that's the point i'm trying to make obvious to you.

Where did I claim I saw it? I've explained to you that these conclusions are arrived at by evidence. Evolution is a scientific theory whether you like it or not.

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2Peter 1:19  We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
Psalm 119:89  Forever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

Using the Bible as evidence of its veracity is a fallacy called making a circular argument.

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By deviation,

What do you mean by this? Please look up what deviation is before responding.

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remember?poor you, even father grandpa Job knew all these 'big deals'
Job 38:10  And broke up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors,
The earth would not leave its orbits, the waters would not flood the earth, the planet venus would not come bumping into earth because God has set it so, He has put limits and 'doors' to enforce it. i like the cute name anyway, "gravitational forces"

What do bars and doors have to do with it? Do you see bars floating in space? It seems you simply wish to use scientific words without understanding what they mean because what you've written is simply gibberish.

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vary vary? i thought this was what i said? "If they earth deviated/went closer to the moon, the whole earth would be flooded ending human life."  What should be laughable is that, in the nebular hypothesis, planets in the solar system used to exchange position but now they don't. Keep laughing, it's good for your health.

Wow a sudden shift when your ignorance is made very glaring. I guess you don't know that as the earth moves, the moon does also. Where did yo see that planets in the solar system used to exchange positions?

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spare me sir. There's no hiding or doubt that God had revealed early to man that the earth had the globe shape. It's unmistakable in the Word, the idea's obvious and the revelation divine. Maybe if they didn't have words like geoid, elliptical and co, doesn't take away that the revelation was there.
Job 38:1  Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
Job 38:4  Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
Job 38:6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
Job 38:9  When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddling band for it,
Job 38:14  It is turned as clay to the sea[/b]l; and they stand as a garment.
Isaiah 40:22  It is he that sitteth upon [b]the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:
The 'swaddle' in that same chapter gives an impression of wrapping ROUND. the 'turned' is an indication of the earth's rotation. And the 'circle' in Isaiah is an out of this world icing in the cake.

You are simply forcing your bible too hard to fit with what we actually know. Please don't force it excessively otherwise, it may start to bleed. What do you think a seal is? Please look it up and go through my explanation. Darkness a swaddling band around clouds? Could this description of anything sensible be worse? Please note for future reference, a circle is not a sphere. One of them is two dimensional, the other is three dimensional.

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i thought you were the one i was discussing with? You said we can observe stars forming and getting annihilated regularly through a telescope, i said no we cannot. The wiki link prove we cannot observe stars forming and getting annihilated regularly through a telescope. Have been highlighting that word all along, but it seemed you were more obssessed with your link than anything else. Let me show you again from that link,meanwhile, supernova is supposed to be the star annihilation part, what about the star formation.

Now you are simply lying. Did you not see the quote I pasted? Did you not read that it had been observed by telescopes and by the naked eyes? Please learn to read an entire article [b]before [/b]arriving at a conclusion. Just look up star formation. I've spoon fed you enough. You need to be mature enough to search out information. I've obliged you too many times.

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Go and learn the meaning of the word 'hypocrisy'. Do you remember when we checked on 'faith' and recently 'slavery'? Are you familiar with the concept that a sentence can have multiple meanings?

We checked them out and they backed up what I said.

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Learn in context to note the difference between a definition and additional explanation. You gave me a link, recall? THIS.

None of them described faith as evidence, a medium or a sense organ. It seems you wish to arbitrarily assign meanings to words. This is not good.

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so you're not a genius afterall. In Mathematics, it's called 'TRANSITIVE PROPERTY', repeat it until it sticks. It says when a=b, and b=c, then a=c. (QED and clap for me)
a humane punishment is a punishment , an inhumane punishment is also a punishment, So humane punishment is inhumane punishment.
You were the one trying to prove that weakness was weakness, and foolishness was foolishness, but ended up saying punishment is punishment.

My goodness. This reasoning is atrocious. Are we discussing mathematics or speaking about punishment. I know they are both punishments but one is humane while the other isn't. Please learn to reason because you're leaning towards a fallacy of ambiguity while I've been quite clear with respect to what I meant.

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It's not divine because it won't last. It's just for a short period. It's not number one for years, it's not even an undisputed number one. the Bible is number one till tomorrow and it's spread over countries and peoples. i didn't say popularity was a major part, stop twisting my words. I said it's popularity was an undeniable, undisputable fact, and that it was ONE of the reasons why i believed it to be divine. Are you forgetful, or dishonestly selective?

Please look it up. It's been number one for many years. And the album is undisputed as number one. So popularity is not a major part of the Bible being divine? Then I stand corrected. Why don't you place the significant properties in the appropriate ranking with the most important feature first?

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Where?

Simply google world's oldest books. I'll no longer be spoon feeding you unless it's absolutely necessary.

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None of the above. What the scriptures record is divine healing. See the case of Moses, Miriam and Naaman.

Matthew 8:2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshiped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
Mat 8:3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
Mat 8:4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, show thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

Wrong. The Bible recommends playing with animal blood.

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hmm, democracy, capitalism and free enquiry. you've failed to show me the concepts involved in this three terms, and how they're the best for the world. it's one thing for something to shape the world or history. It's another for it to be the best for the world. Obviously they're not the best as the world is still in fighting, sorrow, pain, loss, meltdown and so forth. i await your clear concepts, i'll show you from the Bible how best practises and attitudes seen in scripture have influenced any good seen in civilization from those concepts.

Again, if you do not know what capitalism, democracy and free enquiry entail, then look them up. They are best because societies with them generally fare better than other societies. And, it is not properly spread all over the world. I hope you know that we've been through a time when the Bible was supreme and I'd rather those times never return.

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Don't you know? Go to any bookstore and get a good bible, it contains 66books. that's the Bible i've been extolling the virtues all this while na, not the ones only found in museums, cults and links. the true Word is not bound by limitations. we've talked on this and i even quoted scriptures, remember?

It seems you need to go to a bookstore and pick up a copy of the Catholic Bible and reduce your ignorance on the matter. 66 books only. Please educate yourself on how the Bible you so gleefully dance around with came about.

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OF COURSE! You thought they were ordinary books? they are spiritual. there are many magical books as well and incantations that are not ordinary. You think the devil is ordinary? That doesn't make them divine anyway? The Bible is divine.

Oh so they're special too? Well what stops them from being divine and yours being the heretic text?

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Who says Adam was naive. i think he was more intelligent/shrewd than you may ever be.

Rubbish. He was naive that is one of the things we call people who do not know right from wrong. And by God's design too.

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What are you talking of? i said " i was not dwelling on discussing about man having a spirit or heart, different from his brain, remember?"

Myth.

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Well, you may have to prove it, it's up to you. the Bible said it, i believe it and that settles it for me. But seeing you feel otherwise, you're free to prove that people lived in those places and that they were not under Nebuchadnezzar's government.

Aaah the ultimate copout of one who refuses to actually learn. It's been a while since I heard it. Such is the terrible effect of faith. If you do not know that while Nebuchadnezzar lived, there were people and animals in the Americas and Australia, then your problem is just profound.

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You could be more specific as to how the prophecy is false and the fulfilment inaccurate. Quote the verses and say what happened in the stead of the interpretation given, thanks.
You're free to believe in Jesus, he said If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.. you've shown a lot of thirst and faith, what you need to do is come to Jesus. He'll save you.

All ready gave it to you with the one above on which you cited the dreaded copout. If you're unable to comprehend that the world is much bigger than the Bible writers thought, then there is really nothing more to say.

@thehomer

Simply sitting around and forgiving someone who went out and murdered an entire family to steal their plasma tv is not justice. It is an abomination. If God could do this for this person, then why did he still go ahead and commit suicide?
Sorry but even Christians disagree on this so called standard. This is why we can find Christians who oppose slavery and Christians who are in support of a woman's right to have an abortion. This is an indication that God does not sit around and dictate standards.

It's becoming your hobby to try to twist my words. You won't gain much from a forum if all you've come to do is force preconceived notions on people who you seem to have classed together. While you're at getting your diploma in Fallacy study, don't forget to frequently 'check' yourself from falling into the same error. i don't know your issue with a plasma tv, i'm not in your mind, always remember that, neither are you in mine. Respond to what i've typed, not to what you think i typed or will type. i didn't mention any 'sitting around'. You need a change of perspective at the very least, to stand a stand at understanding scriptural issues. If, like you seem to be behaving, you're not interested in understanding but just out to display turgidity, you're on your own. God is not standing before a trial, you are. All humans are. He doesn't owe you nothing, and you can't hold Him, or punish Him on nothing. I said forgiving the repentant sinner which God does and is still doing. The perspective we are discussing is the kingdom of God, it's eternity, not 2years in jail, not even life imprisonment, it's eternal forever and ever damnation. Man possesses a never dying soul. 70/100 years on earth is a joke compared to eternity. the decisions we make now are what affect our eternity. If a man is infected with sin, he is infected. Whether it's small sin or big sin or very big sin, He's excluded from God's kingdom in eternity. It's like some of this metal detectors that won't allow you to pass. It doesn't exactly matter whether it's your house key, or a laptop, or your phone, or a pistol, or a nuclear bomb, you can't escape that alarm/denial of access-entry. If a man is repentant, it doesn't matter whether his sin is 'big' or 'small', he will be forgiven by God. Repentance is hinged on Christ's payment. Christ came to die for us. The one that's infected must die, Christ came to die that death for us. What is left of us as individuals is to accept His payment. that's what you here as been born again. One that is born once is born through Adam, he is in Adam, infected. One that is born again is in Christ, his judgement/punishment has been paid for. that's the forgiveness. you cannot fully understand this things except you have eternal life in you and you're growing in the 'knowledge of God'. i'm not seeing if you can see things in a different perspective, the real perspective btw.
i didn't say that christians agreed on God's standards or not, neither did i talk about  sitting around and dictating standards. i said God's standards guide us. He tells us this is righteous, this is unrighteous. Why? Like i said before, it's like we're looking to be employed in a company. We want Heaven, the kingdom of God. One man is bringing his ssce, the other his phD, one's bringing his birth certificate, the other his international passport. one all suited up, the other is in jeans, one in native. those are all our own thoughts as it were. But the company comes and says we need your say B.Sc 2years experience in X-field, apply only through Z-website etc. The company's statement has now become a guide for everyone. Some are still going to come unprepared or not meeting up, some will still send their cvs to nl job section instead of Z-website, but if you truly want to get the job, you'll follow what the company has stated. this is the kind of picture of God's word guiding us as humans, to live our lives the best way and most importantly get into the Kingdom of God.

It seems pretty obvious that healing amputees is too hard for him.

Doesn't to me.

Where did I ignore you? I simply pointed out what slavery is.

i didn't say you ignored me, can you at least try to follow discussions? i quoted definition of 'slavery' from microsoft encarta. There were about four definitions.  i was saying you ignored the other definitions but only chose the one that seems to suit your fantasies and notions. i was pointing out to you that slavery means many things and that you can't conclude that humanity as a whole abhors it. i showed you that some people even in our country are willing to be slaves(from the definitions), and that many masters/leaders would love to keep others in perpetual slavery. You did a similar thing with the 'faith' definition.

Wow. A failed attempt at obfuscation. Is this still a good reason for God to allow slavery? A good, just and moral God would not allow slavery. It's really that simple

You're not been pragmatic here. All humans are not equal and practically cannot be so. that's the kind of world we live in, not in your fantasied utopia. Some people would work for others, and many gladly would. It's not about the name you give it. It's the same general class of Master and slave, Teacher and student/disciple, Leader and follower, Employer and employee, Boss/Oga and worker. There are some people whose job titles might not sound so melodic, who might have many 'ogas' but whose life and situation is better than some ceoS. No be by Chief accountant abi King Director. Some houseboys are enjoying more than some children in some other house. It's not about the name as you tried to paint it 'agood God would not allow slavery'. Who made you a judge of good or morality by the way? I've shown you in the Bible, servants who even enjoyed more than i'm enjoying. Who would not want to be Joshua the servant of Moses? Or Elisha the servant of Elijah? Some very rich mogs today they say they are servants of God. They said they are servants, but this ones can buy a whole state and a lot of jets. So come off the name painting and face the facts of life. We're all created to prosper. We all have the potential, whether you start as servant or not. Elisha started as servant to Elisha, he received double of what Elijah had. gehazi was servant to Elisha, he became a leper. It's in you what you make of your life.

So according to you, a just God with the ability of performing acts of God like hail, gnats, meteorites etc decided to use a certain group of people, make them blood thirsty murderers and advice them to go on a genocide spree? Yet you turn around and claim that this God is good? Why did he not do this himself? What you're saying is that any act is justified if it is commanded by God. Would you kill three people if God commanded you to?

God can do as He pleases, you cannot, don't give yourself an headache about that. i told you to use the facts, not fight them.
Psalm 135:6  Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.
God would not command me to kill three people. his words guide me and i live in the new covenant ratified by the blood of Christ. how do you always manage to forget that?

What do you mean by sin?

Sin is falling short of God's standard. i'll give you two illustrations. It's like if the pass mark in hundred marks is say 40. In this case, 39.999999999 is fail, 30 is fail, 5 is fail, zero is fail. Both the one that scored 35 and the one who refused to write anything except his named have failed and would repeat. It's like throwing darts at a mark where the 'bull's eye' is success. Every other circle is not success but failure. Even if you threw to the back of your head, you did not succeed just like the guy who almost succeeded in hitting the 'bull's eye'. i won't just say stealing is sin, or immorality is sin. Sin is any thing that falls short of God's glory, standard, requirement.

Well make up your mind on the God who ordered such mass murder. Or was it someone else who ordered the genocide? Remember you referred to it as judgement. Well if God had judged these three neigbours of yours and commanded you to kill them will you do it?

The God the Lord is the same yesterday, today and forever. he cannot commit any crime so we can't accuse Him of crimes. We live in the new covenant/testament. Which is referred to as the period of grace, and we KNOW what God requires, so there's no need for guess works, hypotheses, ifs and 'would youS'

@thehomer

No you don't. Attempting such a comparison would lead at some point to a sort of equivocation fallacy in attempting to force a particular group of objects into another.

Like i said, suit yourself in french if it makes you glad. In the everyday world, people tend to relate unseen things to physical objects. People use different things to demonstrate love, maybe a red heart, flower. It's called metaphor. it's so common in the Bible too like i said. See for instance
Isaiah 66:12  For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
The 'her' is comparing/relating a place, i think Jerusalem, and of course peace like a river.
Proverbs 14:27  The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
Mark 1:10  And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Jeremiah 23:29  Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
1Corinth 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Ezekiel  36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh

Oh? Actually, with the evidence we do have, it is pretty clear why the solar system is the way it is. And you need to realize that probability plays a very large part in science and actually is a field in mathematics. You need to realize that what has been presented is based on evidence that was directly observed, inferred and calculated.
The fact that scientists use cautious words simply demonstrates their humility. And you need to realize that science does not do proofs. And that is a core reason for such language.

Sorry i meant to say "Probabilities are part of science" not 'Probabilities are part of unscientific'. You can't say what has been presented is based on evidence that was directly observed. You can't observe trillions of years ago, you can only guess. The fact that scientists used cautious words demonstrates that they are not sure, it may be it may not be. So stop building your faith on probabilities. What is 'science does not do proofs'?

Why do I have to be the one to teach you how to read entries? The first link was talking about when humans settled in Rhode Island. The Wikipedia entry was talking about the extinctions caused by modern man. Where does it say that humans suddenly sprung up 10000 years ago? It was not written in Genesis but that is what is implied if it is to be taken as true. This is gotten from calculations based on the Bible stories.

i remember telling you that "Science says the most recent time is the holocene epoch(estimated to be about 11500 years ago) when 'modern humans evolved". you then said

Please what scientific work are you quoting? Could you please present a link? It appears that you are simply making absurd claims and attributing them to science. This is a bad tactic.

And i was kind enough to give you a link. This is science, they teach it in school. If you're not aware of the geologic time scale, it's not my fault. But if you need to know, read and know that Science says the most recent time is the holocene epoch(estimated to be about 11500 years ago) when 'modern humans evolved. Let me quote some part of that google page i linked you to.

The period starting about 10000 years ago is called the Holocene epoch. This is also known as the time of modern man. ,
www.jamestown-ri.info/holocene.htm - Cached - Similar
Holocene - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Holocene is a geological epoch which began 11700 years ago (around 10 ,
Overview - Geology - Climate - Ecological developments
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocene - Cached - Similar
Holocene epoch — FactMonster.com
During the Holocene epoch, the sculpturing of the earth's surface to its present , All of the races of modern humans were fully developed, with eventual ,
www.factmonster.com/ce6/sci/A0823996.html - Cached
Scientist believe that modern humans appeared during the ___
Modern humans first appeared in the Holocene Epoch. 8/11/2010 6:54:22 PM. got_a_brain. Points 132|Joined 8/6/2010|Offline. Holocene epoch ,
www.weegy.com/home.aspx?ConversationId=B54A674C - Cached
Holocene epoch: Information from Answers.com
For a list of words related to Holocene epoch, see: Geological Time Scale - Holocene epoch: 10000 years ago to present; modern humans ,
www.answers.com › Library › Literature & Language - Cached

Thanks for telling the truth that "It was not written in Genesis", unlike when you said "I'll also like to see your scientific evidence for the claim of humans being around for only 10,000 years (4000 years longer than Genesis says).

Where did I claim I saw it? I've explained to you that these conclusions are arrived at by evidence. Evolution is a scientific theory whether you like it or not.

i said 'You claim it like you saw it', not 'You claim you saw it', you need to focus on your comprehension, except you're making deliberate attempts to obfuscate issues though.
i like it that evolution is a scientific THEORY and theory it will ever remain.

Using the Bible as evidence of its veracity is a fallacy called making a circular argument.

we've been through this, you're recycling this if anything. you can't accuse something or someone without giving it opportunity to speak for itself/himself, or be spoken for. It's called 'fair hearing'.

What do you mean by this? Please look up what deviation is before responding.

Yes Sirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

de·vi·a·tion [dvee áysh'n]
(plural de·vi·a·tions)
noun
1.  change or difference: a change or difference from what is usual, accepted, expected, or planned
These rituals represented a deviation from established practices.

2.  psychology unacceptable behavior or attitude: behavior or an attitude that is sharply different from a customary, traditional, or generally accepted standard
3.  statistics difference from statistical average: the difference between any individual value and a fixed value such as the average of all the other values in its series
4.  navigation compass error: an error in a compass reading caused by local magnetic fields, especially on a ship at sea

Microsoft® Encarta® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Deviation is what would make the earth go close to the moon, deviation, deviation, remember? As usual, you were probably not following our discuss. i was saying deviation can end human life whether in changing speed and co, and i said it's God that has put the earth in it's orbit and the other planets. You may have been taught that it's something like graviational force or so, but i know there's a Force behind/beyond every force or name.

What do bars and doors have to do with it? Do you see bars floating in space? It seems you simply wish to use scientific words without understanding what they mean because what you've written is simply gibberish.

It's called 'metaphor'. You're behaving like you don't know science, you don't know art. i asked you to tell me some things in commerce, you declined. i'm suspecting you oo.

Wow a sudden shift when your ignorance is made very glaring. I guess you don't know that as the earth moves, the moon does also. Where did yo see that planets in the solar system used to exchange positions?

Can you describe this wowing shift, maybe it might also wow me. Maybe you should write that word 'deviation' on your door. It may help you to grasp it's meaning. So you don't know that according to the 'nebular hypothesis', planets used to exchange positions? wiki is your friend, if you don't see it, tell me, and if you see it be thankful for once.

You are simply forcing your bible too hard to fit with what we actually know. Please don't force it excessively otherwise, it may start to bleed. What do you think a seal is? Please look it up and go through my explanation. Darkness a swaddling band around clouds? Could this description of anything sensible be worse? Please note for future reference, a circle is not a sphere. One of them is two dimensional, the other is three dimensional.

Do you know what a clay seal is? Do you know the meaning of 'turn' and of 'swaddle'? If Isaiah saw the earth as a circle, why are you forcing your interpretations of flat earth, or of disc? Ever occured to you that there may not have been words to distinct a circle from a sphere or a geiod in Isaiah's time? Ever occurred to you that a circle is round and a geoid is also round? the Bible's not a geography textbook, yet it's most accurate than any of those scientists who were and still hold that the earth is flat shaped.

Now you are simply lying. Did you not see the quote I pasted? Did you not read that it had been observed by telescopes and by the unclothed eyes? Please learn to read an entire article before arriving at a conclusion. Just look up star formation. I've spoon fed you enough. You need to be mature enough to search out information. I've obliged you too many times.

You were the one who said "we can observe stars forming and getting annihilated regularly through a telescope'. i've proved you wrong, the links have also proved you wrong. And the links were only on the 'annihilation' part. the ball's in your court, you're the one to prove that we can observe stars forming and getting annihilated regularly through a telescope, not me. Most of what you pasted were refreshers to me, not discoveries. i know about the STORY on star formation. It's also built on suggestions and guess work. Stay on the fallacy diploma, this astronomy work is getting hard on you.

We checked them out and they backed up what I said.None of them described faith as evidence, a medium or a sense organ. It seems you wish to arbitrarily assign meanings to words. This is not good.

Are you really saying that wikitionary link did not have any definition from the Bible? Do i really need to post it here, or you can accept this dishonesty as wrong. i've described what faith is to you. They say experience is the best teacher. you say we have faith, i say yes. Now i tell you what faith is, you say no, my weblink knows best what faith is. Even your weblink put up the bible explanation/definition. Are you just out for the last word/say?

My goodness. This reasoning is atrocious. Are we discussing mathematics or speaking about punishment. I know they are both punishments but one is humane while the other isn't. Please learn to reason because you're leaning towards a fallacy of ambiguity while I've been quite clear with respect to what I meant.

Don't worry, not only your goodness, it'll soon be 'My God'. Don't you just love science? You've always tried to subject life, faith, miracles etc to science. Now i subjected you to science and it's atrocious. You'll soon speak chinese don't worry. So, i hope you now know that foolishness is not foolishness, and weakness is not weakness? Or we're back to maths?

Please look it up. It's been number one for many years. And the album is undisputed as number one. So popularity is not a major part of the Bible being divine? Then I stand corrected. Why don't you place the significant properties in the appropriate ranking with the most important feature first?

number one where and how? The Bible is universal and former, current and future number one. how many translations does this song/album have? Do you have this album, because i don't and i know of many who don't and have never even heard this album, not to mention know the name. You have a Bible, maybe even more than one. I'm not sure there're many who haven't seen a Bible in nigeria. I'm almost certain 90% nigerians have never seen a real mj album not to talk of this particular album you're on about. Jackson's dead and buried. the Word of God is alive forever more.

Simply google world's oldest books. I'll no longer be spoon feeding you unless it's absolutely necessary.

Oh so i can only find it on google. So much for divine comparisons.
i'll respond to other issues later please. Always remember, it's never too late for you to repent and give your life to Jesus Christ. i pray that His grace will be showered on you. Then you'd not need to ask so many questions, the Answer will be with you.
John 16:33  These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

@thehomer

Wrong. The Bible recommends playing with animal blood.

i've talked of this on the other thread, but let me sort of reiterate. All the time that the Bible talks about healing or cure for leprosy, it's about divine intervention. i think it's three times in the old testament, i'll mention them.
1. Moses
Exodus 4:6 And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow.
Exodus 4:7  And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh.
2. Miriam
Numbers 12:10  And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.
Numbers 12:13  And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.
Numbers 12:14  And the LORD said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in again.
3. Naaman
2Kings 5:8  And it was so, when Elisha the man of God had heard that the king of Israel had rent his clothes, that he sent to the king, saying, Wherefore hast thou rent thy clothes? let him come now to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel.
2Ki 5:14  Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.
2Ki 5:15  And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.
The new testament records of cures on lepers were done by Jesus healing them. Even despite your pride and arrogance, let me show you what Leviticus says

Lev 14:2  This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest:
Lev 14:3  And the priest shall go forth out of the camp; and the priest shall look, and, behold, if the plague of leprosy be HEALED in the leper;
Lev 14:4 Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
Note the IF-THEN statement in bold. The rest of the passage is not about cure or healing, but about cleansing rites. These were all significant ceremonies to the Israelites with sundry lessons for today's CHRISTIANS of which you are not one, at least not yet. But FYI, we don't observe that again as Christ has fulfilled all that ceremony on our behalf as well. We live in the new covenant, which is better than the old covenant.

Again, if you do not know what capitalism, democracy and free enquiry entail, then look them up. They are best because societies with them generally fare better than other societies. And, it is not properly spread all over the world. I hope you know that we've been through a time when the Bible was supreme and I'd rather those times never return.

Like i said earlier, you've declined to show me the concepts involved in this three terms, so i'll leave you with it. i still retain that there's no good thing that has brought significant progress in this world that has taken it's roots from biblical principles. Our very civilization owes itself to the Bible. i've asked and will re-ask, if these three systems of capitalism, democracy and free enquiry are the best things to happen to the world as it were, why are we still the way we are? Why is there fightings, wars, injustice, economic meltdowns, depressions, unemployment, crime, corruption etc? Why haven't they solved the world's problems? Is nigeria not practising democracy? We've never been through a time when the Bible was supreme, maybe you meant to say religion though. The time is still coming though, when the Bible would be Supreme when Jesus comes to reign on earth. He's coming to show us the way it ought to be done. He's coming soon.

Daniel 2:44  And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
Genesis 49:10  The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7  Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Luke 1:31  And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luke 1:32  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luke 1:33  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

It seems you need to go to a bookstore and pick up a copy of the Catholic Bible and reduce your ignorance on the matter. 66 books only. Please educate yourself on how the Bible you so gleefully dance around with came about.

we've talked on this. i was talking about the normal Bible that everyone know of all this while and you know it. you even have it, and can't seem to do without peeping into it every time. God says
Luke 21:33  Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Isaiah 40:8  The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand forever.
that's the bench mark. No group of people or council or government, no political party, no society, body or organisation can remove or add any book to the Bible of its own accord. It can't be done. i told you before, you can try it. You have internet, gsm, you even have pdp, un, unesco, and you're 'more intelligent' than these cavemen and fishermen that compiled the Bible, yeah right. Go for it please, disprove those verses above.

Oh so they're special too? Well what stops them from being divine and yours being the heretic text?

We already talked about this when you asked me for reasons why i believe the Bible above other books? Among others, i recall talking of its answers to life's issues, my finding everything 'good' that may be found in other books also in the Bible, historical reliability compared, eternal life, holiness, the revelation of God and the purpose of man. The presence of fakes show that there's an original, and thank God He's clearly shown the original. the difference is clear for those who really see.

Rubbish. He was naive that is one of the things we call people who do not know right from wrong. And by God's design too.

And does the Bible say that Adam didn't know right from wrong? like i said earlier, i think he was more intelligent/shrewd than you may ever be.

Myth.

Suit yourself and wear a shoe to match, i'm not discussing about man having a spirit or heart, different from his brain

Aaah the ultimate copout of one who refuses to actually learn. It's been a while since I heard it. Such is the terrible effect of faith. If you do not know that while Nebuchadnezzar lived, there were people and animals in the Americas and Australia, then your problem is just profound.

As often, you're quick to conclude what i didn't say. i said you're free to prove that people lived in those places and that they were not under Nebuchadnezzar's government. And i've also said if people lived anywhere and Nebuchadnezzar knew of it, then he sure ruled over them. You need some work on your comprehension, sorry to reiterate.
You're the one abusing faith not me. You've put it to wrong use. i've explained faith to you, it is the evidence/proof/indication of the unseen. It's like the sense organ of the unseen. If you don't have it, or fail to use it, there's not much i can do to help you. it's like trying to smell with your ear, or taste with your eyes. If the right sense organ is not used you can't acheive the desired efficient result. that's why the Word refers to unbelievers as dead or blind. they can't sense the things of God, because they do not believe. In God's realm, believing is seeing, not vice versa, i told you that before. It's like a language that you do not understand. how difficult for instance for me to speak or write in japanese to you if you do not hear or read japanese? There'll be very little to communicate, even if i had a lot of things to say to you. You'd need to learn japanese to enjoy my world. it's similar with God.
Hebrews 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

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@thehomerIt's becoming your hobby to try to twist my words. You won't gain much from a forum if all you've come to do is force preconceived notions on people who you seem to have classed together. While you're at getting your diploma in Fallacy study, don't forget to frequently 'check' yourself from falling into the same error. i don't know your issue with a plasma tv, i'm not in your mind, always remember that, neither are you in mine. Respond to what i've typed, not to what you think i typed or will type. i didn't mention any 'sitting around'. You need a change of perspective at the very least, to stand a stand at understanding scriptural issues. If, like you seem to be behaving, you're not interested in understanding but just out to display turgidity, you're on your own. God is not standing before a trial, you are. All humans are. He doesn't owe you nothing, and you can't hold Him, or punish Him on nothing. I said forgiving the repentant sinner which God does and is still doing. The perspective we are discussing is the kingdom of God, it's eternity, not 2years in jail, not even life imprisonment, it's eternal forever and ever damnation. Man possesses a never dying soul. 70/100 years on earth is a joke compared to eternity. the decisions we make now are what affect our eternity. If a man is infected with sin, he is infected. Whether it's small sin or big sin or very big sin, He's excluded from God's kingdom in eternity. It's like some of this metal detectors that won't allow you to pass. It doesn't exactly matter whether it's your house key, or a laptop, or your phone, or a pistol, or a nuclear bomb, you can't escape that alarm/denial of access-entry. If a man is repentant, it doesn't matter whether his sin is 'big' or 'small', he will be forgiven by God. Repentance is hinged on Christ's payment. Christ came to die for us. The one that's infected must die, Christ came to die that death for us. What is left of us as individuals is to accept His payment. that's what you here as been born again. One that is born once is born through Adam, he is in Adam, infected. One that is born again is in Christ, his judgement/punishment has been paid for. that's the forgiveness. you cannot fully understand this things except you have eternal life in you and you're growing in the 'knowledge of God'. i'm not seeing if you can see things in a different perspective, the real perspective btw.
i didn't say that christians agreed on God's standards or not, neither did i talk about  sitting around and dictating standards. i said God's standards guide us. He tells us this is righteous, this is unrighteous. Why? Like i said before, it's like we're looking to be employed in a company. We want Heaven, the kingdom of God. One man is bringing his ssce, the other his phD, one's bringing his birth certificate, the other his international passport. one all suited up, the other is in jeans, one in native. those are all our own thoughts as it were. But the company comes and says we need your say B.Sc 2years experience in X-field, apply only through Z-website etc. The company's statement has now become a guide for everyone. Some are still going to come unprepared or not meeting up, some will still send their cvs to nl job section instead of Z-website, but if you truly want to get the job, you'll follow what the company has stated. this is the kind of picture of God's word guiding us as humans, to live our lives the best way and most importantly get into the Kingdom of God.

Where did I twist your words? The example of the thief and the plasma tv is what is implied by your God simply sitting around forgiving for belief. Are you God? Where did God say "only repentant sinners"? The last time I checked, it was by faith alone not works or anything important. Actually, God is on trial. Do you have any evidence for this soul? Do you really think it is justice to punish someone eternally for a crime committed over a finite period of time?
So what did God tell you about slavery? Is it righteous? How about performing abortions is that righteous?

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Doesn't to me.

Of course you'll say that but tell me, how many amputees did he heal in the Bible? He healed paralysis, bleeding, walked on water, floated into heaven, turned water into wine even raised the dead people to the tune of an entire zombie army yet not one amputee was healed.

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i didn't say you ignored me, can you at least try to follow discussions? i quoted definition of 'slavery' from microsoft encarta. There were about four definitions.  i was saying you ignored the other definitions but only chose the one that seems to suit your fantasies and notions. i was pointing out to you that slavery means many things and that you can't conclude that humanity as a whole abhors it. i showed you that some people even in our country are willing to be slaves(from the definitions), and that many masters/leaders would love to keep others in perpetual slavery. You did a similar thing with the 'faith' definition.

I showed you the slavery that I was referring to. Or do you think that the one in the Bible referred to something different? Keep in mind the fact that those slaves in the Bible could be bought and sold.

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You're not been pragmatic here. All humans are not equal and practically cannot be so. that's the kind of world we live in, not in your fantasied utopia. Some people would work for others, and many gladly would. It's not about the name you give it. It's the same general class of Master and slave, Teacher and student/disciple, Leader and follower, Employer and employee, Boss/Oga and worker. There are some people whose job titles might not sound so melodic, who might have many 'ogas' but whose life and situation is better than some ceoS. No be by Chief accountant abi King Director. Some houseboys are enjoying more than some children in some other house. It's not about the name as you tried to paint it 'agood God would not allow slavery'. Who made you a judge of good or morality by the way? I've shown you in the Bible, servants who even enjoyed more than i'm enjoying. Who would not want to be Joshua the servant of Moses? Or Elisha the servant of Elijah? Some very rich mogs today they say they are servants of God. They said they are servants, but this ones can buy a whole state and a lot of jets. So come off the name painting and face the facts of life. We're all created to prosper. We all have the potential, whether you start as servant or not. Elisha started as servant to Elisha, he received double of what Elijah had. gehazi was servant to Elisha, he became a leper. It's in you what you make of your life.

So you would like to be commanded to go on a genocidal spree? What sort of person considers as a role model, a man who asked God to murder 42 children because they were laughing at his baldness? The funny thing is that God of course did it. That shows what you have lurking inside. Please tell me, would you like to be a slave? Would you like to be able to be bought and sold like a camel or a used car? Would you like to work and not reap its benefits?

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God can do as He pleases, you cannot, don't give yourself an headache about that. i told you to use the facts, not fight them.
Psalm 135:6  Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.
God would not command me to kill three people. his words guide me and i live in the new covenant ratified by the blood of Christ. how do you always manage to forget that?

God can do as he pleases yet he will not command you to kill three people? A God that has commanded people to kill their fellow tribes people, a God that has commanded genocide, a God that has killed children cannot command you to do that? Maybe you are the one greater than God. Or, will you simply ignore such an order if it came down?

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Sin is falling short of God's standard. i'll give you two illustrations. It's like if the pass mark in hundred marks is say 40. In this case, 39.999999999 is fail, 30 is fail, 5 is fail, zero is fail. Both the one that scored 35 and the one who refused to write anything except his named have failed and would repeat. It's like throwing darts at a mark where the 'bull's eye' is success. Every other circle is not success but failure. Even if you threw to the back of your head, you did not succeed just like the guy who almost succeeded in hitting the 'bull's eye'. i won't just say stealing is sin, or immorality is sin. Sin is any thing that falls short of God's glory, standard, requirement.

If God's standard is what is indicated in the Bible, then we are better off ignoring it and making ours (which is what people in sensible countries have done).

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The God the Lord is the same yesterday, today and forever. he cannot commit any crime so we can't accuse Him of crimes. We live in the new covenant/testament. Which is referred to as the period of grace, and we KNOW what God requires, so there's no need for guess works, hypotheses, ifs and 'would youS'

So, who ordered those genocides?

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@thehomerLike i said, suit yourself in french if it makes you glad. In the everyday world, people tend to relate unseen things to physical objects. People use different things to demonstrate love, maybe a red heart, flower. It's called metaphor. it's so common in the Bible too like i said. See for instance
Isaiah 66:12  For thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will extend peace to her like a river, and the glory of the Gentiles like a flowing stream: then shall ye suck, ye shall be borne upon her sides, and be dandled upon her knees.
The 'her' is comparing/relating a place, i think Jerusalem, and of course peace like a river.
Proverbs 14:27  The fear of the LORD is a fountain of life, to depart from the snares of death.
Mark 1:10  And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:
Jeremiah 23:29  Is not my word like as a fire? saith the LORD; and like a hammer that breaketh the rock in pieces?
1Corinth 10:4  And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Ezekiel  36:26  A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you a heart of flesh

I'm not talking about metaphors. You need to follow the thread back to see that you were comparing ethical behaviour to physical attributes.

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Sorry i meant to say "Probabilities are part of science" not 'Probabilities are part of unscientific'. You can't say what has been presented is based on evidence that was directly observed. You can't observe trillions of years ago, you can only guess. The fact that scientists used cautious words demonstrates that they are not sure, it may be it may not be. So stop building your faith on probabilities. What is 'science does not do proofs'?

The age of the universe is not in trillions of years. Also, when you observe stars that are thousands of light years away, you are in a sense looking back into the past. Science doesn't do proofs because it relies on evidence. You get proofs in mathematics and logic. Science is much broader than that.

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i remember telling you that "Science says the most recent time is the holocene epoch(estimated to be about 11500 years ago) when 'modern humans evolved". you then said And i was kind enough to give you a link. This is science, they teach it in school. If you're not aware of the geologic time scale, it's not my fault. But if you need to know, read and know that Science says the most recent time is the holocene epoch(estimated to be about 11500 years ago) when 'modern humans evolved. Let me quote some part of that google page i linked you to.
Thanks for telling the truth that "It was not written in Genesis", unlike when you said "I'll also like to see your scientific evidence for the claim of humans being around for only 10,000 years (4000 years longer than Genesis says)

I notice how you do not actually cite any specific scientific literature. Even the links you posted give the lie to what you're saying. Go back and read them properly. The Wikipedia link does not say that was when humans started roaming the earth, the weegy link which is not a scientific journal says humans actually arrived in the late pleistocene (2.6 million years - 12000years). Carefully go through your links and understand what they say. If you do understand what they say, then you are being dishonest in deliberately misquoting them.

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.i said 'You claim it like you saw it', not 'You claim you saw it', you need to focus on your comprehension, except you're making deliberate attempts to obfuscate issues though.

Did you see everything that you know happen before you?

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i like it that evolution is a scientific THEORY and theory it will ever remain.

Scientific theory doesn't mean what you think it means. I hope you realize that gravity, plate tectonics and the understanding that germs cause diseases are scientific theories too.

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we've been through this, you're recycling this if anything. you can't accuse something or someone without giving it opportunity to speak for itself/himself, or be spoken for. It's called 'fair hearing'.

The Bible has spoken and we have seen that lots of the things in it are wrong.

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Yes Sirrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

de·vi·a·tion [dvee áysh'n]
(plural de·vi·a·tions)
noun
1.  change or difference: a change or difference from what is usual, accepted, expected, or planned
These rituals represented a deviation from established practices.

2.  psychology unacceptable behavior or attitude: behavior or an attitude that is sharply different from a customary, traditional, or generally accepted standard
3.  statistics difference from statistical average: the difference between any individual value and a fixed value such as the average of all the other values in its series
4.  navigation compass error: an error in a compass reading caused by local magnetic fields, especially on a ship at sea

Microsoft® Encarta® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Deviation is what would make the earth go close to the moon, deviation, deviation, remember? As usual, you were probably not following our discuss. i was saying deviation can end human life whether in changing speed and co, and i said it's God that has put the earth in it's orbit and the other planets. You may have been taught that it's something like graviational force or so, but i know there's a Force behind/beyond every force or name.

And again you demonstrate the problem with such thinking. What you're saying is that if we are able to show that God was not needed, you will still introduce your God.

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It's called 'metaphor'. You're behaving like you don't know science, you don't know art. i asked you to tell me some things in commerce, you declined. i'm suspecting you oo.

This is the usual dancing around that we see with Bible readers. When something has been shown to be very wrong or bad, they assign it to metaphor. This is simply picking and choosing what you want in the Bible. Another bad sign.

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Can you describe this wowing shift, maybe it might also wow me. Maybe you should write that word 'deviation' on your door. It may help you to grasp it's meaning. So you don't know that according to the 'nebular hypothesis', planets used to exchange positions? wiki is your friend, if you don't see it, tell me, and if you see it be thankful for once.

I have gone through the article and did not see it. Please post a link to this phenomenon.

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Do you know what a clay seal is? Do you know the meaning of 'turn' and of 'swaddle'? If Isaiah saw the earth as a circle, why are you forcing your interpretations of flat earth, or of disc? Ever occured to you that there may not have been words to distinct a circle from a sphere or a geiod in Isaiah's time? Ever occurred to you that a circle is round and a geoid is also round? the Bible's not a geography textbook, yet it's most accurate than any of those scientists who were and still hold that the earth is flat shaped.

[url=http://users.ipa.net/~tanker/threed.htm]This[/url] is a clay seal. And this is how it is done. Please learn from this and stop repeating your mistakes.
Which scientists hold that the earth is flat? Which ones claimed that the earth was flat? I ask because we actually do know of the many Christians who thought that the earth was flat.

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You were the one who said "we can observe stars forming and getting annihilated regularly through a telescope'. i've proved you wrong, the links have also proved you wrong. And the links were only on the 'annihilation' part. the ball's in your court, you're the one to prove that we can observe stars forming and getting annihilated regularly through a telescope, not me. Most of what you pasted were refreshers to me, not discoveries. i know about the STORY on star formation. It's also built on suggestions and guess work. Stay on the fallacy diploma, this astronomy work is getting hard on you.

Now I know you are simply lying because what I posted showed how star annihilation was seen with the naked eyes and with telescopes. I've decided to stop spoon feeding you on trivial issues. Simply look up star formation and get yourself informed.

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Are you really saying that wikitionary link did not have any definition from the Bible? Do i really need to post it here, or you can accept this dishonesty as wrong. i've described what faith is to you. They say experience is the best teacher. you say we have faith, i say yes. Now i tell you what faith is, you say no, my weblink knows best what faith is. Even your weblink put up the bible explanation/definition. Are you just out for the last word/say?

I'm very sure it doesn't have your biblical definition. You're free to paste it here.

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Don't worry, not only your goodness, it'll soon be 'My God'. Don't you just love science? You've always tried to subject life, faith, miracles etc to science. Now i subjected you to science and it's atrocious. You'll soon speak chinese don't worry. So, i hope you now know that foolishness is not foolishness, and weakness is not weakness? Or we're back to maths?

And this is your latest attempt to evade your clearly absurd statements. For some reason, you seem averse to admitting when you learn.

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number one where and how? The Bible is universal and former, current and future number one. how many translations does this song/album have? Do you have this album, because i don't and i know of many who don't and have never even heard this album, not to mention know the name. You have a Bible, maybe even more than one. I'm not sure there're many who haven't seen a Bible in nigeria. I'm almost certain 90% nigerians have never seen a real mj album not to talk of this particular album you're on about. Jackson's dead and buried. the Word of God is alive forever more.

The song is so divinely inspired that it can be grasped regardless of one's language. That is a step above the Bible you know. Actually, I do and the album lives on. Just check it out on itunes or any popular music download site. You may not have heard the album but I'm pretty much surrounded by people who have. I hope you realize that there are many in China and India (a third of the global population) who have not seen this Bible. Then consider those who you think have the wrong version like the Catholics (the largest Christian denomination).

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Oh so i can only find it on google. So much for divine comparisons.
i'll respond to other issues later please. Always remember, it's never too late for you to repent and give your life to Jesus Christ. i pray that His grace will be showered on you. Then you'd not need to ask so many questions, the Answer will be with you.
John 16:33  These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

It's so divine that the God behind it allowed just one copy not like some Gods who allow forgeries and adulteration of their works.

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@thehomer i've talked of this on the other thread, but let me sort of reiterate. All the time that the Bible talks about healing or cure for leprosy, it's about divine intervention. i think it's three times in the old testament, i'll mention them.
1. Moses
Exodus 4:6 And the LORD said furthermore unto him, Put now thine hand into thy bosom. And he put his hand into his bosom: and when he took it out, behold, his hand was leprous as snow.
Exodus 4:7  And he said, Put thine hand into thy bosom again. And he put his hand into his bosom again; and plucked it out of his bosom, and, behold, it was turned again as his other flesh.
2. Miriam
Numbers 12:10  And the cloud departed from off the tabernacle; and, behold, Miriam became leprous, white as snow: and Aaron looked upon Miriam, and, behold, she was leprous.
Numbers 12:13  And Moses cried unto the LORD, saying, Heal her now, O God, I beseech thee.
Numbers 12:14  And the LORD said unto Moses, If her father had but spit in her face, should she not be ashamed seven days? let her be shut out from the camp seven days, and after that let her be received in again.
3. Naaman
2Kings 5:8  And it was so, when Elisha the man of God had heard that the king of Israel had rent his clothes, that he sent to the king, saying, Wherefore hast thou rent thy clothes? let him come now to me, and he shall know that there is a prophet in Israel.
2Ki 5:14  Then went he down, and dipped himself seven times in Jordan, according to the saying of the man of God: and his flesh came again like unto the flesh of a little child, and he was clean.
2Ki 5:15  And he returned to the man of God, he and all his company, and came, and stood before him: and he said, Behold, now I know that there is no God in all the earth, but in Israel: now therefore, I pray thee, take a blessing of thy servant.
The new testament records of cures on lepers were done by Jesus healing them. Even despite your pride and arrogance, let me show you what Leviticus says

Lev 14:2  This shall be the law of the leper in the day of his cleansing: He shall be brought unto the priest:
Lev 14:3  And the priest shall go forth out of the camp; and the priest shall look, and, behold, if the plague of leprosy be HEALED in the leper;
Lev 14:4 Then shall the priest command to take for him that is to be cleansed two birds alive and clean, and cedar wood, and scarlet, and hyssop:
Note the IF-THEN statement in bold. The rest of the passage is not about cure or healing, but about cleansing rites. These were all significant ceremonies to the Israelites with sundry lessons for today's CHRISTIANS of which you are not one, at least not yet. But FYI, we don't observe that again as Christ has fulfilled all that ceremony on our behalf as well. We live in the new covenant, which is better than the old covenant.

This is even worse than I thought. So according to you, a person with leprosy will first sit around and wait to be healed by God. Then a priest will show up after God has healed him for both of them to play around with animal blood? Wow. I advice you to look up leprosy and see how many times it heals itself spontaneously. Besides, if the person has been cured by God himself, what is the purpose of the rites?

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Like i said earlier, you've declined to show me the concepts involved in this three terms, so i'll leave you with it. i still retain that there's no good thing that has brought significant progress in this world that has taken it's roots from biblical principles. Our very civilization owes itself to the Bible. i've asked and will re-ask, if these three systems of capitalism, democracy and free enquiry are the best things to happen to the world as it were, why are we still the way we are? Why is there fightings, wars, injustice, economic meltdowns, depressions, unemployment, crime, corruption etc? Why haven't they solved the world's problems? Is nigeria not practising democracy? We've never been through a time when the Bible was supreme, maybe you meant to say religion though. The time is still coming though, when the Bible would be Supreme when Jesus comes to reign on earth. He's coming to show us the way it ought to be done. He's coming soon.

Daniel 2:44  And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.
Genesis 49:10  The scepter shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
Isaiah 9:6  For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 9:7  Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even forever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.
Luke 1:31  And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
Luke 1:32  He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luke 1:33  And he shall reign over the house of Jacob forever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

If you do not know the basic concepts involved in them and you live on earth with access to the Internet, I'll advice you to look it up. I will not spoon feed you on such basic information.
I wonder, have you read what the world was like when the Bible reigned supreme in Europe? Compare that to what we have now and tell me if you do not think there has been tremendous improvement in interpersonal relations.

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we've talked on this. i was talking about the normal Bible that everyone know of all this while and you know it. you even have it, and can't seem to do without peeping into it every time. God says
Luke 21:33  Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Isaiah 40:8  The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand forever.
that's the bench mark. No group of people or council or government, no political party, no society, body or organisation can remove or add any book to the Bible of its own accord. It can't be done. i told you before, you can try it. You have internet, gsm, you even have pdp, un, unesco, and you're 'more intelligent' than these cavemen and fishermen that compiled the Bible, yeah right. Go for it please, disprove those verses above.

So according to you, the Catholic Bible is an abnormal Bible? I hope you realize that the words of those other ancient texts will not pass away either. This is further evidence of their divinity. Now disprove my statement.

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We already talked about this when you asked me for reasons why i believe the Bible above other books? Among others, i recall talking of its answers to life's issues, my finding everything 'good' that may be found in other books also in the Bible, historical reliability compared, eternal life, holiness, the revelation of God and the purpose of man. The presence of fakes show that there's an original, and thank God He's clearly shown the original. the difference is clear for those who really see.

Nah they're all divine. Besides, we know the Bible is not historically reliable, there are lots of good in those books that came before and after the Bible, some also reveal God and man's purpose. Hmm. Maybe your Bible is simply one of the fakes. I mean if the Catholics who compiled the first ones use the fake, then what do we expect of the sects that came after?

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And does the Bible say that Adam didn't know right from wrong? like i said earlier, i think he was more intelligent/shrewd than you may ever be.

It seems that as usual, you do not know you Bible. What was the tree that Adam was not supposed to eat from?
Maybe you're just speaking for yourself.

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Suit yourself and wear a shoe to match, i'm not discussing about man having a spirit or heart, different from his brain

Then don't. Just avoid accepting myths as factual stories.

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As often, you're quick to conclude what i didn't say. i said you're free to prove that people lived in those places and that they were not under Nebuchadnezzar's government. And i've also said if people lived anywhere and Nebuchadnezzar knew of it, then he sure ruled over them. You need some work on your comprehension, sorry to reiterate.
You're the one abusing faith not me. You've put it to wrong use. i've explained faith to you, it is the evidence/proof/indication of the unseen. It's like the sense organ of the unseen. If you don't have it, or fail to use it, there's not much i can do to help you. it's like trying to smell with your ear, or taste with your eyes. If the right sense organ is not used you can't acheive the desired efficient result. that's why the Word refers to unbelievers as dead or blind. they can't sense the things of God, because they do not believe. In God's realm, believing is seeing, not vice versa, i told you that before. It's like a language that you do not understand. how difficult for instance for me to speak or write in japanese to you if you do not hear or read japanese? There'll be very little to communicate, even if i had a lot of things to say to you. You'd need to learn japanese to enjoy my world. it's similar with God.
Hebrews 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

This is just sad. So according to you, Nebuchadnezzar ruled over the Native Americans, the Australian aborigines and the Pygmies of Congo? It seems you're losing it. I advice you to just go out and learn about the world as it actually is not about how you wish to force it to conform to your Bible.

.

@thehomer
my initial thought was to 'ignore' you, seeing it's more like you're interested in having the last word than in sincere discussion. And i was like well, so let it be, have the last word if you wish. But on 'seventh' thought, i'm responding at least for now. Like i told you before, i'm not God, i don't have all the answers, God does. While i may be able to answer your posted questions, or someone else on the forum may, we cannot satisfy man Only God can give you what you need which is above answers, if you have Jesus you won't even need answers, sometimes we call Him the Answer. We can only try (which is a big try) to show you a better, or if you want it another perspective. Actually, normally, usually, and historically, i don't respond to/answer your type. i see you as blind i see you as dead.
2Corinth 4:3  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Corinth 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Ephesians 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins
i was too by the way, and every child of God was once blind and dead before too, if that consoles you. It will only take a miracle to communicate effectively with the dead or blind, or best yet a opening of eyes or raising of the dead. That's why i often show you that you have faith, and that you can use this faith rightly, come alive, believe and see. the, our work would be easier.
1Corinth 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
my answering you may serve as a witness against you, or may help in your salvation, and you wouldn't sincerely say in future that you were looking for answers and found no one to help you. As i projected, you came up with more questions, and it's just the first of many paragraphs.

Where did I twist your words[b]?[/b] The example of the thief and the plasma tv is what is implied by your God simply sitting around forgiving for belief. Are you God[b]?[/b] Where did God say "only repentant sinners"? The last time I checked, it was by faith alone not works or anything important. Actually, God is on trial. Do you have any evidence for this soul[b]? [/b]Do you really think it is justice to punish someone eternally for a crime committed over a finite period of time[b]?[/b]
So what did God tell you about slavery[b]?[/b] Is it righteous[b]?[/b] How about performing abortions is that righteous[b]?[/b]

It's like i'm seeing this thing in front, and i'm telling the person next to me "Look at that". he's like "I can't see that". So i look at him and he's quite short, and i say "Oh climb this, or let me carry you, so you can see that". then i carry him, only to discover that he's not just short but has a medical history of being short sighted. I give him correcting glasses, only to discover that he's not just short-sighted but BLIND. And i'm thinking of what to do until i again realise that he's not only blind, he's DEAD. that's like our situation here really. There are two solutions, one to be honest. One is that you get saved by believing and giving your life to Christ, that takes you from death to life, and from blindness to sight. Or two is that you humble yourself to see things from another perspective, the christian perspective. Like i usually see my brother Olaadegbu write "the man with an experience is not at the mercy of the man with an arguement". i'm not at your mercy, neither is God. i've experienced Him, and i'm only trying to show you what i've experienced. your arguments cannot change or erase my experience. I was once in sin, but Jesus saved me, and i know that i know that i know that i know that He saved me. We're in a relationship, we understand ourselves better than you do. If you want to be part of the relationship, or the understanding, you've got to sort of rely on one of Us. A relationship is more than lab science, or courtroom evidence. In a relationship, one may use a phrase, or slang, like for instance "i'm coming", or a nod or a wink. It might represent some constant value in the lab or courtroom, but those involved in the relationship understand exactly what it means or meant. A husband might wink and the wife understands the whole message, you the observer might not even see it, or see it and take it to mean something else. It's up to you the observer to rely on the two in the relationship for a true understanding, or continue yapping about nothing. In clear terms, what i'm saying is if the Bible says so and so, allow us to explain it to you because we understand it better than you, we KNOW him.
Hebrews 10:30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
now, have you thought of what you'd do to God after your trial? God require that sinners repent. Faith in God's forgiveness is hinged on repentance.
Matthew 4:17  From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mark 6:12  And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Luke 13:3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Acts 3:19  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 17:30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Psalm 51:17  The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Faith for forgiveness is demonstrated through repentance. Like i said, they are hinged, they go hand in hand for real salvation. Repentance without faith is simply making a resolution, it wouldn't save. Faith without genuine repentance is dead faith. Proverbs 28:13  He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
God is my best evidence for the existence of a never dying soul, i believe Him, remember? Do you have substantial evidence to refute His claim? It's not about what i think is justice or injustice, it's about the facts and realities of God and coming judgement. i adviced you to face facts, not fight or deny facts. And we've been through this line of argument, i might feel something just and you may not. Some people feel it is just to kill others for election results, do you? One thing we all have in common though is a will, an ability to adjust or adapt to life, to nature, or to facts. Romans 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
i behave like you and look for the words 'slavery' and 'abortion' in the Bible, it's not there.

Of course you'll say that but tell me, how many amputees did he heal in the Bible? He healed paralysis, bleeding, walked on water, floated into heaven, turned water into wine even raised the dead people to the tune of an entire zombie army yet not one amputee was healed.

Please do not skip this question this time, i'm really curious. ARE YOU AN AMPUTEE? If you are, sorry, well God can heal you. As you've said above, He's done and does greater things than that. Don't know though if healing amputees would make you believe Him, seeing that you claim that He did other mighty miracles and yet do not believe. BTW, i don't find the word 'amputee' in my Bible. It's maybe there was no amputee to heal, or maybe there was another name, like say 'lame' or 'cripple'. i think that theyare the same class/family though. If He can heal those, He can heal all. How big is your faith thehomer?

@thehomer

I showed you the slavery that I was referring to. Or do you think that the one in the Bible referred to something different? Keep in mind the fact that those slaves in the Bible could be bought and sold
So you would like to be commanded to go on a genocidal spree? What sort of person considers as a role model, a man who asked God to murder 42 children because they were laughing at his baldness? The funny thing is that God of course did it. That shows what you have lurking inside. Please tell me, would you like to be a slave? Would you like to be able to be bought and sold like a camel or a used car? Would you like to work and not reap its benefits?

You're crying more than the bereaved, friend. You're attempting to befuddle issues here. In an attempt to paint he Word in bad light, you've consistently used the word 'slavery' to sort of depict an harsh inhumane cruel state, similar to what obtained between your fathers and the whitemen. Is it coincidence that we see the word 'slave' just once in the Bible(in this case the KJV english Bible which we've both been quoting from in our discussions), and the word 'servant' close to 500times in the same Bible? Is there a sort of bigotry in place by you, or a deliberate attempt to subtly force readers to read in wrong notions? i've shown you from scriptures, and muted your point that a servant in the Scriptures is less than a human being. Jesus was a servant, His disciples were servants, Joseph was a servant, so were Daniel, Esther, Abednego, Joshua and Elisha. All these grew to become strong forces and personalities in their generations, unlike the what you tried to paint when you were emphasizing 'young virgin slaves going to Israelite priests'. Proverbs 17:2  A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.
It seems the english is disturbing you, it's not about the name of the position, stop being sentimental. Are you so blind as not to see even in our midst, so many 'SERVANTS of god' who are more of GODS of the men? Someone is claiming he's not a servant, or not a bastard, but he can't feed well, be clothed well, or even go to school. the other house next door, the houseboy is about writing UTME, is feeding well, and can even afford to feed the other family if chanced. Whose shoe would you rather be? the fact of life is that we are NOT all equal, not even born equal. Some people are master and some are servant, but it's a position that doesn't have to be forever. It depends on you the individual. But God has told us how we ought to behave whatever position we find ourselves. We do NOT live in a state of utopia, how many times do i still have to say that? Some humansMajority of humans would rather mind some other person's business, than mind their own business. People continue to look for, and crave security/fulfilment in jobs serving others. Whatever fine/crude name you call it, you're working for someone with terms and conditions, all over the world. You're so concerned about buying or selling,do you watch sports/more particularly football? Do they sell/buy people? Do you see nigerians training and 'praying' real hard that some club would buy them? Do they sign contracts and deals for so and so years? Are they bound to their contracts? Or now, they are footballers, they are permitted to be bought or sold? they actually sell some players free! It depends on your perspective really, i can't force you to reason. As common to you, you attempt to derail the point by talking of some 42. Did Elisha the servant of Elijah not enjoy more than you ever would? He had a double portion of Elijah's anointing, and he was a NATIONAL figure. Who was working and not reaping its benefits. Do you see Abraham's servant, or Jeroboam the servant of Solomon, or the servants of Jesus, or Joshua the servant of Moses? Those were servants in the Bible, study their lives practically and see them answer your 'questions'.

God can do as he pleases yet he will not command you to kill three people? A God that has commanded people to kill their fellow tribes people, a God that has commanded genocide, a God that has killed children cannot command you to do that? Maybe you are the one greater than God. Or, will you simply ignore such an order if it came down?

we're in the new covenant, i told you that earlier, and every Bible student/scholar knows that. God keeps His covenant. (a solemn agreement that is binding on all parties). Ever heard that song 'Covenant keeping God'? It's in His nature to keep His word/covenant/promise/testament. That He can doesn't mean He would, He's not a robot neither are you/i. Like for instance, you can spit on yourself or computer, you do possess that ability, but it doesn't mean you would. You have standards and perhaps reasons/values. i show you again from God's covenant with us.
2Peter 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1Timothy 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Please, always do remember that we live in a period and covenant of GRACE.

If God's standard is what is indicated in the Bible, then we are better off ignoring it and making ours (which is what people in sensible countries have done).

Please give examples of sensible countries and some these standards that they have made.

So, who ordered those genocides?

Genocide, crime of destroying or conspiring to destroy a group of people because of their ethnic, national, racial, or religious identity. Raphael Lemkin, a Polish legal scholar, coined the term in 1944 to describe Nazi Germany’s annihilation of groups by direct murder and indirect means during World War II (1939-1945). The Nazis’ specific attempt to totally destroy the Jewish people and the Roma, or Gypsies, became known as the Holocaust. Genocide has been a crime under international law since 1951.
Microsoft ® Encarta ® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Case dismissed.

I'm not talking about metaphors. You need to follow the thread back to see that you were comparing ethical behaviour to physical attributes.

i've been following all along, and trying to show you the need for standards, singular benchmark reference standards. And i gave you an instance of physical measurements, so that you could readily relate the analogy. Humans learn faster with what they see, or know. i was seeking to help you from known to unknown. To see why we should have international standards for physical measurements, and then transfer to why we should have God's eternal standards for our behaviours. And i'm showing you that it's a principle that we can easily see in daily life and in the Bible. People use physical and common things' behaviour or attribute to relate to deeper or more abstract things.

The age of the universe is not in trillions of years. Also, when you observe stars that are thousands of light years away, you are in a sense looking back into the past.

i meant to say billions of years, it's the same logic and question. You can't observe billions of years ago, even millions, you can at best guess. You shouldn't build your faith on guesses. Before you said 'directly', now it's 'in a sense'. It's so simply, no matter how we twist it. You can't go out now with a telescope, or some other gadget, and presently look at a star and tell me that you're "observing formation and annihilation" of million years olds.

Science doesn't do proofs because it relies on evidence. You get proofs in mathematics and logic. Science is much broader than that.

Are you high? What is proof, what is evidence? i always thought they were the same thing, maybe you need to define/redefine these things including science. So you're denying mathematics, sorry o maths, even peter denied Jesus.

I notice how you do not actually cite any specific scientific literature. Even the links you posted give the lie to what you're saying. Go back and read them properly. The Wikipedia link does not say that was when humans started roaming the earth, the weegy link which is not a scientific journal says humans actually arrived in the late pleistocene (2.6 million years - 12000years). Carefully go through your links and understand what they say. If you do understand what they say, then you are being dishonest in deliberately misquoting them.

i don't need to go and read links. you asked for links. i knew about what i said before i ever saw any links. i know that science says we're in the holocene epoch, that that epoch is said to be about 10,000 years ago, and that modern humans(the name scientists call us) evolved in this epoch. This free information i'm giving you is what some people are using for thesis in higher institutions of learning. it's not my fault you don't know it. Go and improve your comprehension, and re-read the links you requested. it's baffling how you choose to treasure links, but frown when others quote people. Are links more important than people, well renowned people who are established Drs, professors, presidents?

Did you see everything that you know happen before you?

No, but i don't claim them like i saw them.

Scientific theory doesn't mean what you think it means. I hope you realize that gravity, plate tectonics and the understanding that germs cause diseases are scientific theories too.

While you're back in my thoughts, what does scientific theory mean, as briefly as you can describe.

The Bible has spoken and we have seen that lots of the things in it are wrong.

Who are 'we'? i thought we were the only two discussing?

And again you demonstrate the problem with such thinking. What you're saying is that if we are able to show that God was not needed, you will still introduce your God.

How's this an introduction of God, we've been talking about Him all along. i told you He's in charge of all the earth, and that we are kept by His power. i even quoted scriptures to that effect, and said He's the reason why the earth wouldn't deviate, or that none of the millions of objects in the sky could cause a earth threatening imbalance. Chaos doesn't produce order, nothing doesn't produce all things. It is God, the omniscient being behind all of the earth and universe.

This is the usual dancing around that we see with Bible readers. When something has been shown to be very wrong or bad, they assign it to metaphor. This is simply picking and choosing what you want in the Bible. Another bad sign.

the Bible clearly says in the same book of Job 26:7  He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. When you see reference to bars and doors, please be honest enough to comprehend it as a metaphor and understand the message passed, or ask others, like meee.

I have gone through the article and did not see it. Please post a link to this phenomenon.

What article did you go through, for thehomer's sake, google is your companion. Just type planets shift/migration or something. you don't know this science that you so heavily rely on. So you don't know that scientists say that the planets used to move up and down and exchange positions? you don't believe it yet ba? i know you'll accept it when you see it, it's apart of the nebular hypothesis film. To help you though, you gave me a link and i recall seeing it there. It's the 'formation and evolution of solar system' link, check the first few paragraphs.

This is a clay seal. And this is how it is done. Please learn from this and stop repeating your mistakes.
Which scientists hold that the earth is flat? Which ones claimed that the earth was flat? I ask because we actually do know of the many Christians who thought that the earth was flat.

Here's what i said "Do you know what a clay seal is? Do you know the meaning of 'turn' and of 'swaddle'? If Isaiah saw the earth as a circle, why are you forcing your interpretations of flat earth, or of disc? Ever occured to you that there may not have been words to distinct a circle from a sphere or a geiod in Isaiah's time? Ever occurred to you that a circle is round and a geoid is also round? the Bible's not a geography textbook, yet it's most accurate than any of those scientists who were and still hold that the earth is flat shaped."
i see you could only pick out the first question to 'attack'. It's the unbeliever's general attitude to God's Word, picking and choosing, forgetting all the right and nibbling at the little seeming wrong. i said do you know what a clay seal is, i didn't say i don't know. Thanks for showing me though, hope you learnt something too? Do you know the flat earth scientists?
Observe the Job 38 passage, it's not difficult to see/picture that it was talking of the roundness and rotation of the earth.

Job 38:1  Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
It's God speaking to Job in a language he understood. Do you sincerely think Job would understand if God told him in english that the earth was a geoid or spheroid or whatever shape scientists always change it to be?
Job 38:4  Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
There goes the metaphor
Job 38:6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
there again
Job 38:8  Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it broke forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
and again
Job 38:9  When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddling band for it,
If you could picture this, He's talking about the clouds and darkness surrounding the earth. Apart from the garment covering, the words 'swaddling' and 'band' actually depict a round picture.

swad·dle [swódd'l]
(past and past participle swad·dled, present participle swad·dling, 3rd person present singular swad·dles)
transitive verb
1.  wrap somebody in something: to wrap or bandage somebody or something with something
2.  wrap baby up tightly: to wrap a baby tightly in soft material
3.  smother somebody or something: to restrain somebody or something with a complete wrapping

band [band]
noun (plural bands)
1.  strip or loop of material: a strip of fabric, metal, or elastic placed around something to strengthen it or around several things to hold them together
2.  contrasting stripe: a long narrow area that is different in material, color, or texture from the adjacent parts
3.  strip or circle of material: a strip or circle of fabric or elastic used for decoration, identification, or absorbing sweat on the forehead or hands
4.  ring: a plain ring worn on a finger
a wedding band


Microsoft® Encarta® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Sure you know the word wrap. Swaddle and band all point to a round shape.
Job 38:14  It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
'It' refers to the earth, "it is turned". the earth is turned. the earth turns, they call it earth rotation and revolution. the earth is turned, how? the simile given is 'as clay to the seal' From your link, you can at least picture how clay is turned on a clay seal. The turning, the roundness is so obvious no matter how you try to twist it. Christians may say anything, they are not omniscient, they also fail exams, they may be wrong like unbelievers. But the Word of God is not wrong. the Word tells us plainly that the earth has a round shape and that it is turned.

Now I know you are simply lying because what I posted showed how star annihilation was seen with the unclothed eyes and with telescopes. I've decided to stop spoon feeding you on trivial issues. Simply look up star formation and get yourself informed.

i know the story on star formation thank you. You've already conceded that you were wrong to say that stars were observed forming and annihilating REGULARLY, i guess the issue is overflogged already?

@thehomer

I'm very sure it doesn't have your biblical definition. You're free to paste it here.

HERE . Do you recall when you picked definition 7? Look at definition 5
5. (Christianity) Belief and trust in the Christian God's promises revealed through Christ in the New Testament.
  Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld. (Hebrews 11:1 NWT)

And this is your latest attempt to evade your clearly absurd statements. For some reason, you seem averse to admitting when you learn.

What's absurd is your denial of mathematics as a science. What's absurd is when you say there are no proofs in science but in maths and logic. i showed you scientifically, the abnormality of subjecting everything to science. Don't forget transitive property in a hurry.

The song is so divinely inspired that it can be grasped regardless of one's language. That is a step above the Bible you know. Actually, I do and the album lives on. Just check it out on itunes or any popular music download site. You may not have heard the album but I'm pretty much surrounded by people who have. I hope you realize that there are many in China and India (a third of the global population) who have not seen this Bible. Then consider those who you think have the wrong version like the Catholics (the largest Christian denomination).

i see you're so occupied with the point on the popularity of the Bible. so i have to go get this similarly popular album on itunes' website? i don't recall the last time i visited itunes website. How popular exactly is this album that one has to go to itunes to get? You have a Bible if not more than one, i do, your friends do, all your relatives have heard of, and seen the Bible. Can't say the same for this nameless popular album. plus michael doesn't claim divinity? There are even rumours as to him been whether a christian, or muslim, or satanist. you have no case for him joooooo.

It's so divine that the God behind it allowed just one copy not like some Gods who allow forgeries and adulteration of their works.

Why don't you honestly accept that it's a much forgotten insignificant book?

This is even worse than I thought. So according to you, a person with leprosy will first sit around and wait to be healed by God. Then a priest will show up after God has healed him for both of them to play around with animal blood? Wow. I advice you to look up leprosy and see how many times it heals itself spontaneously. Besides, if the person has been cured by God himself, what is the purpose of the rites?

This is exactly like i described you. It's so plain to see english, yet you can't see it. Did you see the IF-THEN clause, does it mean anything to your comprehension? What's according to me? you have eyes to read, or are you literally blind and dead? The cure found in the Bible for leprosy is divine. i didn't say it's the only cure in the world. You out of ignorance, asked for what the Bible says about leprosy, it has been shown you that the Bible states plainly that God can cure it. if you cannot understand such plain children sunday school matters, we can't be found together discussing the significance and applications of Leviticus 14.

If you do not know the basic concepts involved in them and you live on earth with access to the Internet, I'll advice you to look it up. I will not spoon feed you on such basic information.
I wonder, have you read what the world was like when the Bible reigned supreme in Europe? Compare that to what we have now and tell me if you do not think there has been tremendous improvement in interpersonal relations.

shying away, sly move though it won't take you far. The Bible never reigned supreme in europe,you're been insincere or perhaps ignorant of the Bible. Jesus didn't command anyone to go and 'reign in europe', He said to go and preach the good news. i'm guessing you refer to the dark times when religious people took advantage of people. Those people didn't follow the Bible, God didn't send them. Jesus is coming to reign, He's the one with pure and true religion. Every other religion is a counterfeit. He's coming soon, to show us how it ought to be done, and to judge the world. The King of kings is coming, and we(believers) will reign WITH Him.

So according to you, the Catholic Bible is an abnormal Bible? I hope you realize that the words of those other ancient texts will not pass away either. This is further evidence of their divinity. Now disprove my statement.

What books are in the 'catholic Bible'? Any ancient text is ANCIENT as the name suggests. it has passed away. It's irrelevant. If it was relevant, i'll see it in the Bible. You can't try for instance to remove the book of Hosea from the Bible, you can't, no matter the number of people you know or agree with in high places. It can't be relegated to some obscure link, being protected like some strange specie of wildlife about to go into extinction. I've dared you to try it severally.

Nah they're all divine. Besides, we know the Bible is not historically reliable, there are lots of good in those books that came before and after the Bible, some also reveal God and man's purpose. Hmm. Maybe your Bible is simply one of the fakes. I mean if the Catholics who compiled the first ones use the fake, then what do we expect of the sects that came after?

i'm supposed to be more concerned than you are then? Another case of crying more than the bereaved. Where are you, are they all divine or some are fake? Are you on the two sides at the same time? you need to read/re-read church history.

It seems that as usual, you do not know you Bible. What was the tree that Adam was not supposed to eat from?
Maybe you're just speaking for yourself.

Genesis 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
i'm convinced that you're saying something that the Bible does not say. Adam, naive? sounds like words and opposite. i think he was more intelligent/shrewd than you may ever be.

Then don't. Just avoid accepting myths as factual stories.

that's nice. thanks for the advice.

This is just sad. So according to you, Nebuchadnezzar ruled over the Native Americans, the Australian aborigines and the Pygmies of Congo? It seems you're losing it. I advice you to just go out and learn about the world as it actually is not about how you wish to force it to conform to your Bible.

Do improve your comprehension. Here's what i said,  "As often, you're quick to conclude what i didn't say. i said you're free to prove that people lived in those places and that they were not under Nebuchadnezzar's government. And i've also said if people lived anywhere and Nebuchadnezzar knew of it, then he sure ruled over them. You need some work on your comprehension, sorry to reiterate.
You're the one abusing faith not me. You've put it to wrong use. i've explained faith to you, it is the evidence/proof/indication of the unseen. It's like the sense organ of the unseen. If you don't have it, or fail to use it, there's not much i can do to help you. it's like trying to smell with your ear, or taste with your eyes. If the right sense organ is not used you can't acheive the desired efficient result. that's why the Word refers to unbelievers as dead or blind. they can't sense the things of God, because they do not believe. In God's realm, believing is seeing, not vice versa, i told you that before. It's like a language that you do not understand. how difficult for instance for me to speak or write in japanese to you if you do not hear or read japanese? There'll be very little to communicate, even if i had a lot of things to say to you. You'd need to learn japanese to enjoy my world. it's similar with God.
Hebrews 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him".
Like i've said, you do need life. it's hard to dance with the dead, or to teach colours to the blind. the Bible is not just about understanding english structure and grammar(even you need to work hard at this), it's life. It's not subject to science or to the natural. It's in the realm of the [b]super[/b]natural. It tells us how history. our present and our future like no other book. Most important to this thread, it tells us that God is loving 1John 4:8  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. and forgiving Psalm 86:5  For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee. Ephesians 2:4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Psalm 86:15  But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.
It also tells us why He God created hell Matthew 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
You see, sin is like a virus, actually worse. Whatever file or program it infects is infected, whether angel. cherubim or man. We're all infected for all have sinned. We need the antivirus that is provided to clean this virus. Devil and friends is like a partition that has been condemned for delete, eternal damnation. Good news is we are not yet condemned. We can sit forever complaining about why, how and where we're infected and who infected us. We can vainly glory in the usefulness of the files and programs in us. But more importantly and needfully, we can submit to the antivirus cleansing power of the sacrifice of Jesus updated, and forever speaking better things. It's called giving one's life to Jesus, and then submitting ourselves to a daily scan so that we can be found useful and true. We've all heard the good news, we have no excuse.
1John 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

You seem to favour long posts with lots of misinformation and misrepresentation. I do not.

Image123:

@thehomer
my initial thought was to 'ignore' you, seeing it's more like you're interested in having the last word than in sincere discussion. And i was like well, so let it be, have the last word if you wish. But on 'seventh' thought, i'm responding at least for now. Like i told you before, i'm not God, i don't have all the answers, God does. While i may be able to answer your posted questions, or someone else on the forum may, we cannot satisfy man Only God can give you what you need which is above answers, if you have Jesus you won't even need answers, sometimes we call Him the Answer. We can only try (which is a big try) to show you a better, or if you want it another perspective. Actually, normally, usually, and historically, i don't respond to/answer your type. i see you as blind i see you as dead.
2Corinth 4:3  But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
2Corinth 4:4  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
Ephesians 2:1  And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins
i was too by the way, and every child of God was once blind and dead before too, if that consoles you. It will only take a miracle to communicate effectively with the dead or blind, or best yet a opening of eyes or raising of the dead. That's why i often show you that you have faith, and that you can use this faith rightly, come alive, believe and see. the, our work would be easier.
1Corinth 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
my answering you may serve as a witness against you, or may help in your salvation, and you wouldn't sincerely say in future that you were looking for answers and found no one to help you. As i projected, you came up with more questions, and it's just the first of many paragraphs.

This is the usual attempt at dancing away from questions that are clearly important. I hope you realize that according to what you've written above, it's God's fault that I do not believe him. If it takes a miracle, then clearly his intervention is needed.

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It's like i'm seeing this thing in front, and i'm telling the person next to me "Look at that". he's like "I can't see that". So i look at him and he's quite short, and i say "Oh climb this, or let me carry you, so you can see that". then i carry him, only to discover that he's not just short but has a medical history of being short sighted. I give him correcting glasses, only to discover that he's not just short-sighted but BLIND. And i'm thinking of what to do until i again realise that he's not only blind, he's DEAD. that's like our situation here really. There are two solutions, one to be honest. One is that you get saved by believing and giving your life to Christ, that takes you from death to life, and from blindness to sight. Or two is that you humble yourself to see things from another perspective, the christian perspective. Like i usually see my brother Olaadegbu write "the man with an experience is not at the mercy of the man with an arguement". i'm not at your mercy, neither is God. i've experienced Him, and i'm only trying to show you what i've experienced. your arguments cannot change or erase my experience. I was once in sin, but Jesus saved me, and i know that i know that i know that i know that He saved me. We're in a relationship, we understand ourselves better than you do. If you want to be part of the relationship, or the understanding, you've got to sort of rely on one of Us. A relationship is more than lab science, or courtroom evidence. In a relationship, one may use a phrase, or slang, like for instance "i'm coming", or a nod or a wink. It might represent some constant value in the lab or courtroom, but those involved in the relationship understand exactly what it means or meant. A husband might wink and the wife understands the whole message, you the observer might not even see it, or see it and take it to mean something else. It's up to you the observer to rely on the two in the relationship for a true understanding, or continue yapping about nothing. In clear terms, what i'm saying is if the Bible says so and so, allow us to explain it to you because we understand it better than you, we KNOW him.
Hebrews 10:30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
now, have you thought of what you'd do to God after your trial? God require that sinners repent. Faith in God's forgiveness is hinged on repentance.
Matthew 4:17  From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mark 6:12  And they went out, and preached that men should repent.
Luke 13:3  I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Acts 3:19  Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Acts 17:30  And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
Psalm 51:17  The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.
Faith for forgiveness is demonstrated through repentance. Like i said, they are hinged, they go hand in hand for real salvation. Repentance without faith is simply making a resolution, it wouldn't save. Faith without genuine repentance is dead faith. Proverbs 28:13  He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
God is my best evidence for the existence of a never dying soul, i believe Him, remember? Do you have substantial evidence to refute His claim? It's not about what i think is justice or injustice, it's about the facts and realities of God and coming judgement. i adviced you to face facts, not fight or deny facts. And we've been through this line of argument, i might feel something just and you may not. Some people feel it is just to kill others for election results, do you? One thing we all have in common though is a will, an ability to adjust or adapt to life, to nature, or to facts. Romans 8:28  And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
i behave like you and look for the words 'slavery' and 'abortion' in the Bible, it's not there.

You clearly miss the point of my argument. My point is that I see no rational basis for this belief that you have so your attempt to sell it to me fails. If you want it to succeed, then go and speak with your God to do what he knows he needs to do to attract one like myself. So, your God is at my mercy if he truly desires people to go to his heaven.
I advice you to look carefully in your bible you will see the references made to slaves i.e the type that people buy, own and pass on to other family members, beat almost to death (may die one or two days after the beating). But since abortion isn't there, why does that issue clearly divide Christians?

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Please do not skip this question this time, i'm really curious. ARE YOU AN AMPUTEE? If you are, sorry, well God can heal you. As you've said above, He's done and does greater things than that. Don't know though if healing amputees would make you believe Him, seeing that you claim that He did other mighty miracles and yet do not believe. BTW, i don't find the word 'amputee' in my Bible. It's maybe there was no amputee to heal, or maybe there was another name, like say 'lame' or 'cripple'. i think that theyare the same class/family though. If He can heal those, He can heal all. How big is your faith thehomer?

Whether or not I'm an amputee is irrelevant. My question is why does he not heal amputees? According to you, there may not have been amputees in the past for Jesus to heal? This is simply absurd. Amputees have been recorded from more than 500 years BCE and was known to the Romans who controlled the region. Look up lame and cripple. They are quite different from one who is amputated.
You see, the problem is that he simply could not have done those things that were written. Or do you think Sathya Sai Baba (who is still alive I may add) is actually able to conjure up food? Jesus needed someone to donate some food for him to share but this guy can make food appear. Do you have enough faith to believe in him?

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@thehomerYou're crying more than the bereaved, friend. You're attempting to befuddle issues here. In an attempt to paint he Word in bad light, you've consistently used the word 'slavery' to sort of depict an harsh inhumane cruel state, similar to what obtained between your fathers and the whitemen. Is it coincidence that we see the word 'slave' just once in the Bible(in this case the KJV english Bible which we've both been quoting from in our discussions), and the word 'servant' close to 500times in the same Bible? Is there a sort of bigotry in place by you, or a deliberate attempt to subtly force readers to read in wrong notions? i've shown you from scriptures, and muted your point that a servant in the Scriptures is less than a human being. Jesus was a servant, His disciples were servants, Joseph was a servant, so were Daniel, Esther, Abednego, Joshua and Elisha. All these grew to become strong forces and personalities in their generations, unlike the what you tried to paint when you were emphasizing 'young virgin slaves going to Israelite priests'. Proverbs 17:2  A wise servant shall have rule over a son that causeth shame, and shall have part of the inheritance among the brethren.
It seems the english is disturbing you, it's not about the name of the position, stop being sentimental. Are you so blind as not to see even in our midst, so many 'SERVANTS of god' who are more of GODS of the men? Someone is claiming he's not a servant, or not a naughty person, but he can't feed well, be clothed well, or even go to school. the other house next door, the houseboy is about writing UTME, is feeding well, and can even afford to feed the other family if chanced. Whose shoe would you rather be? the fact of life is that we are NOT all equal, not even born equal. Some people are master and some are servant, but it's a position that doesn't have to be forever. It depends on you the individual. But God has told us how we ought to behave whatever position we find ourselves. We do NOT live in a state of utopia, how many times do i still have to say that? Some humansMajority of humans would rather mind some other person's business, than mind their own business. People continue to look for, and crave security/fulfilment in jobs serving others. Whatever fine/crude name you call it, you're working for someone with terms and conditions, all over the world. You're so concerned about buying or selling,do you watch sports/more particularly football? Do they sell/buy people? Do you see nigerians training and 'praying' real hard that some club would buy them? Do they sign contracts and deals for so and so years? Are they bound to their contracts? Or now, they are footballers, they are permitted to be bought or sold? they actually sell some players free! It depends on your perspective really, i can't force you to reason. As common to you, you attempt to derail the point by talking of some 42. Did Elisha the servant of Elijah not enjoy more than you ever would? He had a double portion of Elijah's anointing, and he was a NATIONAL figure. Who was working and not reaping its benefits. Do you see Abraham's servant, or Jeroboam the servant of Solomon, or the servants of Jesus, or Joshua the servant of Moses? Those were servants in the Bible, study their lives practically and see them answer your 'questions'.

This is yet another long post of just hand waving and attempted obfuscation. Just to understand what you're saying, are you comparing football trades to slave trade in which the person being sold is sold to a family as property to be inherited? One that may be beaten and when beaten, it's okay for them to die after one day? Are you being serious? I identified the sort of slavery I was referring to to avoid this sort of fallacy of ambiguity yet you wish to wallow in it.
Your reference to Elisha was that he was a good role model but you ignore the sort of person who would like to have children killed for mocking his baldness. This is a terrible sort of insecurity. So, would you like to be a "Biblical slave"?

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we're in the new covenant, i told you that earlier, and every Bible student/scholar knows that. God keeps His covenant. (a solemn agreement that is binding on all parties). Ever heard that song 'Covenant keeping God'? It's in His nature to keep His word/covenant/promise/testament. That He can doesn't mean He would, He's not a robot neither are you/i. Like for instance, you can spit on yourself or computer, you do possess that ability, but it doesn't mean you would. You have standards and perhaps reasons/values. i show you again from God's covenant with us.
2Peter 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
1Timothy 2:4  Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
John 3:16  For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Romans 5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Please, always do remember that we live in a period and covenant of GRACE.

So, God has changed. He is no longer the sort of tribal barbaric God that he was? Yet you will also at the same time claim he doesn't change. What sort of mental gymnastics do you use to explain the fact that he used to command genocides but now only recommends things society as a whole decides is appropriate?

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Please give examples of sensible countries and some these standards that they have made.

I'll give you three. Look up Denmark, Finland, Norway and their choice of support of human rights. You may wish to know that God consistently fails to support human rights.

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Genocide, crime of destroying or conspiring to destroy a group of people because of their ethnic, national, racial, or religious identity. Raphael Lemkin, a Polish legal scholar, coined the term in 1944 to describe Nazi Germany’s annihilation of groups by direct murder and indirect means during World War II (1939-1945). The Nazis’ specific attempt to totally destroy the Jewish people and the Roma, or Gypsies, became known as the Holocaust. Genocide has been a crime under international law since 1951.
Microsoft ® Encarta ® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Case dismissed.

This is yet another attempt at trying to define a problem away. How is the case dismissed? What God ordered fits the above description. The fact that the word was unavailable or that there was no international law against it then does not make it right. Go back and ask your God why he ordered humans to kill other humans when he could have used one of his many acts to do that.

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i've been following all along, and trying to show you the need for standards, singular benchmark reference standards. And i gave you an instance of physical measurements, so that you could readily relate the analogy. Humans learn faster with what they see, or know. i was seeking to help you from known to unknown. To see why we should have international standards for physical measurements, and then transfer to why we should have God's eternal standards for our behaviours. And i'm showing you that it's a principle that we can easily see in daily life and in the Bible. People use physical and common things' behaviour or attribute to relate to deeper or more abstract things.

Yet for some reason, you still cannot see that they cannot be compared in that manner? This is why we use the phrase "apples to oranges". Why do I have to also teach English Language in a discussion that uses the language? Look up the meaning of that expression here

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i meant to say billions of years, it's the same logic and question. You can't observe billions of years ago, even millions, you can at best guess. You shouldn't build your faith on guesses. Before you said 'directly', now it's 'in a sense'. It's so simply, no matter how we twist it. You can't go out now with a telescope, or some other gadget, and presently look at a star and tell me that you're "observing formation and annihilation" of million years olds.

Now you are simply being absurd. If I said that over a 24 hour period 3000 years ago on Australia, the earth rotated on its axis. Would that be a guess? Does it require faith to make such a statement?
The "in a sense" refers to the looking back in time. Please try and carefully read what I wrote.

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Are you high? What is proof, what is evidence? i always thought they were the same thing, maybe you need to define/redefine these things including science. So you're denying mathematics, sorry o maths, even peter denied Jesus.

Well, you thought wrong. Proof is different from evidence when it comes to science. How did I deny mathematics? Again, carefully read what I wrote. I don't think English is that difficult.

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i don't need to go and read links. you asked for links. i knew about what i said before i ever saw any links. i know that science says we're in the holocene epoch, that that epoch is said to be about 10,000 years ago, and that modern humans(the name scientists call us) evolved in this epoch. This free information i'm giving you is what some people are using for thesis in higher institutions of learning. it's not my fault you don't know it. Go and improve your comprehension, and re-read the links you requested. it's baffling how you choose to treasure links, but frown when others quote people. Are links more important than people, well renowned people who are established Drs, professors, presidents?

It seems you wish to simply lie here because you still did not cite any scientific literature. And the links you gave which you have said you do not need to read demonstrate that you are wrong. So you give links that contradict you yet you refuse to acknowledge when you are wrong? Why would you do that? Please present three of these scientists saying that humans evolved 12,000 to 10,000 years ago.

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No, but i don't claim them like i saw them.

So in other words, you may be wrong? Especially when it is not being backed by scientific reasoning? You have to realize that it's not only what you see that is true. There are other and better ways of discovering that something is true.

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While you're back in my thoughts, what does scientific theory mean, as briefly as you can describe.

Look it up. I will not spoon feed you with such trivial information.

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Who are 'we'? i thought we were the only two discussing?

Both of us have seen this so have many who have come before us and many others now.

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How's this an introduction of God, we've been talking about Him all along. i told you He's in charge of all the earth, and that we are kept by His power. i even quoted scriptures to that effect, and said He's the reason why the earth wouldn't deviate, or that none of the millions of objects in the sky could cause a earth threatening imbalance. Chaos doesn't produce order, nothing doesn't produce all things. It is God, the omniscient being behind all of the earth and universe.

Of course. Like I said, you made it clear that you would still introduce this God even where he is not needed.

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the Bible clearly says in the same book of Job 26:7  He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing. When you see reference to bars and doors, please be honest enough to comprehend it as a metaphor and understand the message passed, or ask others, like meee.

How do you decide which part is metaphor and which isn't? Couldn't the genealogy of Jesus have been a metaphor?

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What article did you go through, for thehomer's sake, google is your companion. Just type planets shift/migration or something. you don't know this science that you so heavily rely on. So you don't know that scientists say that the planets used to move up and down and exchange positions? you don't believe it yet ba? i know you'll accept it when you see it, it's apart of the nebular hypothesis film. To help you though, you gave me a link and i recall seeing it there. It's the 'formation and evolution of solar system' link, check the first few paragraphs.

The question was where did you see this information? I've checked and it's there so, it probably did happen. Have you read about how that was suspected to have happened?

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Here's what i said "Do you know what a clay seal is? Do you know the meaning of 'turn' and of 'swaddle'? If Isaiah saw the earth as a circle, why are you forcing your interpretations of flat earth, or of disc? Ever occured to you that there may not have been words to distinct a circle from a sphere or a geiod in Isaiah's time? Ever occurred to you that a circle is round and a geoid is also round? the Bible's not a geography textbook, yet it's most accurate than any of those scientists who were and still hold that the earth is flat shaped."
i see you could only pick out the first question to 'attack'. It's the unbeliever's general attitude to God's Word, picking and choosing, forgetting all the right and nibbling at the little seeming wrong. i said do you know what a clay seal is, i didn't say i don't know. Thanks for showing me though, hope you learnt something too? Do you know the flat earth scientists?
Observe the Job 38 passage, it's not difficult to see/picture that it was talking of the roundness and rotation of the earth.

Job 38:1  Then the LORD answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
It's God speaking to Job in a language he understood. Do you sincerely think Job would understand if God told him in english that the earth was a geoid or spheroid or whatever shape scientists always change it to be?
Job 38:4  Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.
There goes the metaphor
Job 38:6  Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
there again
Job 38:8  Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it broke forth, as if it had issued out of the womb?
and again
Job 38:9  When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddling band for it,
If you could picture this, He's talking about the clouds and darkness surrounding the earth. Apart from the garment covering, the words 'swaddling' and 'band' actually depict a round picture.

swad·dle [swódd'l]
(past and past participle swad·dled, present participle swad·dling, 3rd person present singular swad·dles)
transitive verb
1.  wrap somebody in something: to wrap or bandage somebody or something with something
2.  wrap baby up tightly: to wrap a baby tightly in soft material
3.  smother somebody or something: to restrain somebody or something with a complete wrapping

band [band]
noun (plural bands)
1.  strip or loop of material: a strip of fabric, metal, or elastic placed around something to strengthen it or around several things to hold them together
2.  contrasting stripe: a long narrow area that is different in material, color, or texture from the adjacent parts
3.  strip or circle of material: a strip or circle of fabric or elastic used for decoration, identification, or absorbing sweat on the forehead or hands
4.  ring: a plain ring worn on a finger
a wedding band


Microsoft® Encarta® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Sure you know the word wrap. Swaddle and band all point to a round shape.
Job 38:14  It is turned as clay to the seal; and they stand as a garment.
'It' refers to the earth, "it is turned". the earth is turned. the earth turns, they call it earth rotation and revolution. the earth is turned, how? the simile given is 'as clay to the seal' From your link, you can at least picture how clay is turned on a clay seal. The turning, the roundness is so obvious no matter how you try to twist it. Christians may say anything, they are not omniscient, they also fail exams, they may be wrong like unbelievers. But the Word of God is not wrong. the Word tells us plainly that the earth has a round shape and that it is turned.

Wow. This must be a very tough dance to perform. So the metaphor is actually the real thing? Again, how do you decide what is actually being spoken about? All it sounds like you're doing is that you're forcing the Bible to fit with what we actually currently know. Please avoid such gymnastics especially when we actually do know what clay seals are.
I notice how you tend to fill the post with a lot of noise when the facts clearly contradict your Bible.

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i know the story on star formation thank you. You've already conceded that you were wrong to say that stars were observed forming and annihilating REGULARLY, i guess the issue is overflogged already?

Where did I concede this? I only pointed out that you were simply lying about having read the link even after I pasted the relevant paragraph on this thread. So please do yourself a favour and look up the relevant information.

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@thehomerHERE . Do you recall when you picked definition 7? Look at definition 5
5. (Christianity) Belief and trust in the Christian God's promises revealed through Christ in the New Testament.
  Faith is the assured expectation of things hoped for, the evident demonstration of realities though not beheld. (Hebrews 11:1 NWT)

Are belief and trust evidence? (Did you notice that the word "evidence" does not appear and is not implied in that definition?) So if you believe and trust your banker, this is evidence of what?

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What's absurd is your denial of mathematics as a science. What's absurd is when you say there are no proofs in science but in maths and logic. i showed you scientifically, the abnormality of subjecting everything to science. Don't forget transitive property in a hurry.

Actually, mathematics and logic are basically tools used in science. And yes proofs are for mathematics and logic. It seems you have a lot of learning to do. I'll advice you to get to it.

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i see you're so occupied with the point on the popularity of the Bible. so i have to go get this similarly popular album on itunes' website? i don't recall the last time i visited itunes website. How popular exactly is this album that one has to go to itunes to get? You have a Bible if not more than one, i do, your friends do, all your relatives have heard of, and seen the Bible. Can't say the same for this nameless popular album. plus michael doesn't claim divinity? There are even rumours as to him been whether a christian, or muslim, or satanist. you have no case for him joooooo.

You don't seem to get it. I said the album itself may be considered divine not necessarily that the person who performed it was divine or claimed to be divine. Even the Bible writers and translators are not considered to be divine. The album is quite popular. Most reviewers rate it 5 stars. Whether or not you know it is popular does not diminish the fact that it is the best selling album of all time.

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Why don't you honestly accept that it's a much forgotten insignificant book?

Because it is obviously not forgotten and is not insignificant.

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This is exactly like i described you. It's so plain to see english, yet you can't see it. Did you see the IF-THEN clause, does it mean anything to your comprehension? What's according to me? you have eyes to read, or are you literally blind and dead? The cure found in the Bible for leprosy is divine. i didn't say it's the only cure in the world. You out of ignorance, asked for what the Bible says about leprosy, it has been shown you that the Bible states plainly that God can cure it. if you cannot understand such plain children sunday school matters, we can't be found together discussing the significance and applications of Leviticus 14.

Yes it is according to you because that makes no sense. If God has done the healing, then what is the use of killing animals and playing with their blood?

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shying away, sly move though it won't take you far. The Bible never reigned supreme in europe,you're been insincere or perhaps ignorant of the Bible. Jesus didn't command anyone to go and 'reign in europe', He said to go and preach the good news. i'm guessing you refer to the dark times when religious people took advantage of people. Those people didn't follow the Bible, God didn't send them. Jesus is coming to reign, He's the one with pure and true religion. Every other religion is a counterfeit. He's coming soon, to show us how it ought to be done, and to judge the world. The King of kings is coming, and we(believers) will reign WITH Him.

Of course. Then the No True Scotsman fallacy appears. I guess this means that you have the True Christianity. You need to realize that you cannot simply say that only people today are True Christians but not those bad people there. Of course he's always coming. Maybe he'll be here on May 25th. We'll see.

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What books are in the 'catholic Bible'? Any ancient text is ANCIENT as the name suggests. it has passed away. It's irrelevant. If it was relevant, i'll see it in the Bible. You can't try for instance to remove the book of Hosea from the Bible, you can't, no matter the number of people you know or agree with in high places. It can't be relegated to some obscure link, being protected like some strange specie of wildlife about to go into extinction. I've dared you to try it severally.

This is really sad. You now go for a circular argument? A book that is irrelevant is not in the Bible because the ones in the Bible are not irrelevant. This is very sad. I hope you realize that there are books before and after the Bible e.g the Torah and the Qur'an among others. Then the Catholic Bible with the books of Maccabees, Tobit etc. Then there are the others from which the Abrahamic religions draw their myths e.g the book of Enoch. Please educate yourself on the mythology and history of your favourite religion.

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i'm supposed to be more concerned than you are then? Another case of crying more than the bereaved. Where are you, are they all divine or some are fake? Are you on the two sides at the same time? you need to read/re-read church history.

The point is to show that your choice is simply arbitrary.

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Genesis 2:17  But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
i'm convinced that you're saying something that the Bible does not say. Adam, naive? sounds like words and opposite. i think he was more intelligent/shrewd than you may ever be.

What would you call someone who has no knowledge of good and evil? Do you think people like e.g children and mentally handicapped people can be described as naive?

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that's nice. thanks for the advice.

You're welcome.

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Do improve your comprehension. Here's what i said,  "As often, you're quick to conclude what i didn't say. i said you're free to prove that people lived in those places and that they were not under Nebuchadnezzar's government. And i've also said if people lived anywhere and Nebuchadnezzar knew of it, then he sure ruled over them. You need some work on your comprehension, sorry to reiterate.
You're the one abusing faith not me. You've put it to wrong use. i've explained faith to you, it is the evidence/proof/indication of the unseen. It's like the sense organ of the unseen. If you don't have it, or fail to use it, there's not much i can do to help you. it's like trying to smell with your ear, or taste with your eyes. If the right sense organ is not used you can't acheive the desired efficient result. that's why the Word refers to unbelievers as dead or blind. they can't sense the things of God, because they do not believe. In God's realm, believing is seeing, not vice versa, i told you that before. It's like a language that you do not understand. how difficult for instance for me to speak or write in japanese to you if you do not hear or read japanese? There'll be very little to communicate, even if i had a lot of things to say to you. You'd need to learn japanese to enjoy my world. it's similar with God.
Hebrews 11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him".
Like i've said, you do need life. it's hard to dance with the dead, or to teach colours to the blind. the Bible is not just about understanding english structure and grammar(even you need to work hard at this), it's life. It's not subject to science or to the natural. It's in the realm of the [b]super[/b]natural. It tells us how history. our present and our future like no other book. Most important to this thread, it tells us that God is loving 1John 4:8  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. and forgiving Psalm 86:5  For thou, Lord, art good, and ready to forgive; and plenteous in mercy unto all them that call upon thee. Ephesians 2:4  But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Psalm 86:15  But thou, O Lord, art a God full of compassion, and gracious, longsuffering, and plenteous in mercy and truth.
It also tells us why He God created hell Matthew 25:41  Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
You see, sin is like a virus, actually worse. Whatever file or program it infects is infected, whether angel. cherubim or man. We're all infected for all have sinned. We need the antivirus that is provided to clean this virus. Devil and friends is like a partition that has been condemned for delete, eternal damnation. Good news is we are not yet condemned. We can sit forever complaining about why, how and where we're infected and who infected us. We can vainly glory in the usefulness of the files and programs in us. But more importantly and needfully, we can submit to the antivirus cleansing power of the sacrifice of Jesus updated, and forever speaking better things. It's called giving one's life to Jesus, and then submitting ourselves to a daily scan so that we can be found useful and true. We've all heard the good news, we have no excuse.
1John 1:7  But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Sorry but what you've said above makes no sense because Nebuchadnezzar did not know about the Americas neither did he know about Australia. I doubt he knew about China back then. And of course, there were animals in those places. You're simply saying whatever you want your Bible to say but as we know, it's in English and is once again shown to be quite wrong. And as usual, when this is clear, you try to chuck in a lot of words to try to hide the fact that it is wrong and this fact is clear. If you think there were no people or animals in those places, then please take the time to learn something about world history.

@ topic and xgel >>> when you die feel free to ask God why He created hell ? On the other hand, what are you doing to make this world heaven on earth ?

@thehomer

You seem to favour long posts with lots of misinformation and misrepresentation. I do not.

i try to explain things, give illustrations, analogies and comparisons so that you may see things from the angle believers see them. i'll see to be brief sha, didn't know it bothered you.

This is the usual attempt at dancing away from questions that are clearly important. I hope you realize that according to what you've written above, it's God's fault that I do not believe him. If it takes a miracle, then clearly his intervention is needed.

i believe that i've been as detailed as possible, answering you almost per sentence, it's dishonest for you to accuse me of shying/dancing away from your questions. It's not God's fault that you do not believe. All men do not believe by default, i was once an unbeliever too. It did take a miracle, and God's intervention for me and for all believers. It's not a matter of been born as in a christian family or locale. Every man has to believe by him/herself. Jesus was sent by God to intervene. He died to pay for our sins, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him, in His payment/work, would not perish. the ball is in YOUR court as it were.

You clearly miss the point of my argument. My point is that I see no rational basis for this belief that you have so your attempt to sell it to me fails. If you want it to succeed, then go and speak with your God to do what he knows he needs to do to attract one like myself. So, your God is at my mercy if he truly desires people to go to his heaven.

Did i miss it? You were talking about how you didn't know that a person had to REPENT, that you thought it was only FAITH. Plus i was telling you the best way for you to get answers to your 'questions'.  Life is more complex than grouping things into rational and irrational alone. Not everything is subject to that classification. Some loverelationships may not, your preference or love or hate for a particular food, or name, or course may not always be under the class of rational and co. My belief is not subject to your rational basis/biases, it transcends it. God desires you and me to go to Heaven because option B is not too pleasant. you either go to Heaven or Hell.

I advice you to look carefully in your bible you will see the references made to slaves i.e the type that people buy, own and pass on to other family members, beat almost to death (may die one or two days after the beating). But since abortion isn't there, why does that issue clearly divide Christians?

i do know what you're talking of and have a better understanding of it than you do. i'm simply 'playing thehomer', going with the evidence. I DON'T FIND SLAVERY OR ABORTION IN ALL OF MI BIBLE. It's quite easy to play thehomer, it seems.

Whether or not I'm an amputee is irrelevant. My question is why does he not heal amputees? According to you, there may not have been amputees in the past for Jesus to heal? This is simply absurd. Amputees have been recorded from more than 500 years BCE and was known to the Romans who controlled the region. Look up lame and cripple. They are quite different from one who is amputated.
You see, the problem is that he simply could not have done those things that were written. Or do you think Sathya Sai Baba (who is still alive I may add) is actually able to conjure up food? Jesus needed someone to donate some food for him to share but this guy can make food appear. Do you have enough faith to believe in him?

Haa, so you failed to answer my question, are you shyyy? i don't see that word 'amputee' in my Bible. But i do see cases that might have been amputees, and worse than amputees, and i saw God take care of them. he raised the dead, he parted the sea, he walked on water, he brought water out of the Rock. Do you believe that He did these things? do sincerely answer, because if you do not believe, neither would you even it was written for you in every book in the Scriptures that God healed amputees.
Matthew 12:15  But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;
Please, what's the difference between lame, cripple and amputee? i don't know Sathya, but i know that magicians can do tricks and perform miracles. i don't follow/believe them because they can't save themselves, talk less me. they can't rise from the dead, and they are not from God. BTW, Jesus could feed people from nothing if He wanted to. He fed millions in the wilderness for 40years, He fed his disciples at the lake side when He resurrected. i'll brb

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@thehomeri try to explain things, give illustrations, analogies and comparisons so that you may see things from the angle believers see them. i'll see to be brief sha, didn't know it bothered you.

Well such long responses take a lot of time to read and digest.

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i believe that i've been as detailed as possible, answering you almost per sentence, it's dishonest for you to accuse me of shying/dancing away from your questions. It's not God's fault that you do not believe. All men do not believe by default, i was once an unbeliever too. It did take a miracle, and God's intervention for me and for all believers. It's not a matter of been born as in a christian family or locale. Every man has to believe by him/herself. Jesus was sent by God to intervene. He died to pay for our sins, that WHOSOEVER believes in Him, in His payment/work, would not perish. the ball is in YOUR court as it were.

I accused you of shying away from certain questions because you simply did not respond to several of them which lots of Christians seem to have answers to. Though the answers often turn out to be bad ones. When you ignore them, it appears as though you realize that the answers are bad. Since you don't know, why don't you ask God for those of us that don't speak to him? Or will he give contradictory answers?
Again, you make my point for me. It took a miracle in your own case. Why has God chosen to hide himself from the rest of us?

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Did i miss it? You were talking about how you didn't know that a person had to REPENT, that you thought it was only FAITH. Plus i was telling you the best way for you to get answers to your 'questions'.  Life is more complex than grouping things into rational and irrational alone. Not everything is subject to that classification. Some loverelationships may not, your preference or love or hate for a particular food, or name, or course may not always be under the class of rational and co. My belief is not subject to your rational basis/biases, it transcends it. God desires you and me to go to Heaven because option B is not too pleasant. you either go to Heaven or Hell.

You just keep making my point for me. If your belief is not rational, then why do you believe it? That simply implies that you choose not to apply reason and logic to your beliefs. Especially beliefs as costly as these. Think of what you're saying here. Do you apply reason to your choice of lawyer, auto mechanic, pastor/prophet?

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i do know what you're talking of and have a better understanding of it than you do. i'm simply 'playing thehomer', going with the evidence. I DON'T FIND SLAVERY OR ABORTION IN ALL OF MI BIBLE. It's quite easy to play thehomer, it seems.

Actually, this would be clearly dishonest because slavery is mentioned in the Bible but abortion isn't.

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Haa, so you failed to answer my question, are you shyyy? i don't see that word 'amputee' in my Bible. But i do see cases that might have been amputees, and worse than amputees, and i saw God take care of them. he raised the dead, he parted the sea, he walked on water, he brought water out of the Rock. Do you believe that He did these things? do sincerely answer, because if you do not believe, neither would you even it was written for you in every book in the Scriptures that God healed amputees.
Matthew 12:15  But when Jesus knew it, he withdrew himself from thence: and great multitudes followed him, and he healed them all;

Actually, if it were written there, and referenced in the works of some historians and being performed in his name today, then I would start suspecting that there's something to it. But as things stand, the fact that they weren't even mentioned sounds to me like the sort of screening one sees happening in these televised miracle shows.

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Please, what's the difference between lame, cripple and amputee?

Please look up the differences in a dictionary.

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i don't know Sathya, but i know that magicians can do tricks and perform miracles. i don't follow/believe them because they can't save themselves, talk less me. they can't rise from the dead, and they are not from God. BTW, Jesus could feed people from nothing if He wanted to. He fed millions in the wilderness for 40years, He fed his disciples at the lake side when He resurrected. i'll brb

Actually, there's an update. Sathya Sai Baba died about a day ago (who knows if he'll resurrect or if there'll be stories of his resurrection?) How do you know they are not from the True God? Have you checked? These are people whose works can be investigated with knowledge and tools much better than what was available in Jesus' times.