NLMediator:

"I asked a question which nobody could answer , if it's possible to be saved or born again without the blood of Jesus, of what necessity is his death, why did he need to shed his blood if men could be saved without it, his death was in vain."

I'm still studying this issue and claim no deep knowledge of any sort. But could a possible answer be that Jesus' physical visit to earth and the accompanying death were to provide the salvation experience already being enjoyed by some Jews to non-Jews?

If we assume the Jews were saved already on the basis of the law ,we should also remember  Gentiles were also converted to Judaism, like  cornelius and the ethiopean eunuch . so if the Jews were born again by works of the law ,the Gentiles who  were converted to judaism also should be counted born again under the law. We are still left with the question, if they could have been saved without the death of christ, he didn't need to die .

Besides ,paul made it clear that the gospel brought salvation to Jews and Gentiles

Romans 1:16
. . the gospel of Christ. .  is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Jesus told Peter about conversion.

Luke 22:32
. .  when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Peter himself acknowledged that they got born again through christ resurrection

1 Peter 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

The righteous saints of old testaments were saved nominally. They were declared righteous men according to the standard of righteousness of their time. But they still had the sin nature, requires a pure blood to take away. Or change.

All men got saved  in christ. When he rose, everybody rose with him. Some of them even appeared to others.

Matthew 27:52
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose 53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

^^^^^^^^^

OK. Like I said, I'm still learning.

Joagbaje:

Rather we  here wof , wofer, wolves,false teacher, etc because you know that when you enter abuses ,I will sign out. What are you afraid of?

^
By your words. . .you are a ravening wolf, a dissembling hypocrite, a false teacher whose god is his belly. You have been described as "clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots" Begone you!

You pretend piety asking for quotes of your words. Do you think we forget your lies as easily your ilk forget the lies of your mentor Chris and swallow his honeyed poison. Your words are plainly recorded and they reveal you as these threads show:

Joagbaje, Come And Answer Your Paul James Query.
How Joagbaje Became God

The scripture you quote is for critics like you. Sheep without shepheard . Read it from vs 8

Jude 1:8-10
Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities. 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee. 10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

@NLMediator:

The Bible says that Enoch & Elijah went up to heaven "alive" though in Enoch's case, the words used were ambiguous. The Bible also says that that God cannot behold iniquity.

The two statements above infer that Enoch and Elijah were righteous in the sight of God. Question then becomes - was that due to their goodness or imputation by/from God? Considering that the Word says NO man is righteous and that all our righteousness are as filthy rags before God, I would say that the righteousness of these two gentlemen was a gift from God - Just like Abrahams' which is explicitly stated. Question then becomes - How did they achieve this when Christ was not yet sacrificed?

I believe the answer is found when the Bible says the sacrifice of Christ was achieved at the beginning. OT Saints looked forward whist we today look backwards but both AT THE SAME CROSS. But the physical act was just symbolism. The act had already been achieved according to the Bible and its achievement made Enoch and Elijah possible.

No Christian will look down on Christs sacrifice but the question is when was He sacrificed? I suggest you look at God's Word rather than publications like ROR and/or history as God's Word transcends these

@Joe,
Thanks a lot for posting these scriptures.
They are deep indeed.

@NLMediator,
we learn everyday o.
One thing about Jo is that it seems he studies the bible a lot as he is never ashamed when he has to proof some of his statements.
That cannot be said about a number of his critics which is unfortunate.
When he quotes scriptures, they say he is following man.
Its laughable.
To me his has put to shame those that castigated him on some of his statements.

@Nuclearboy,
kindly show us in the bible where it was said that the righteousness of (Edited) Abraham, Elijah and Enoch was a gift from God as you just stated.

Joagbaje:

The scripture you quote is for critics like you. Sheep without shepheard .

^
It is not in doubt that there will be other sheep not of Christ. As you yourself have declared several times, your god and shepherd is pastor Chris. As Jesus himself said: His sheep hear his voice and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. Jesus Christ of Nazareth is my Shepherd and my Lord not "pastor" Chris.
I understand your angst: your livelihood is threatened; that is why you are on the offensive against aletheia. No doubt if you had my email, by now you would be sending your duplicitous missives my way.

Snowwy:

@Joe,
Thanks a lot for posting these scriptures.
They are deep indeed.

^
Oh yes, as usual the CE Greek chorus shows up. It was only a matter of time before the usual ego-massaging, praise-singing, acolytes turn out.

There are two parts to my last post.

You may comment on the second one if that is a lie. I wonder why you are feeling bitter.
As if one has to be a CE member to understand a truth when spoken.

^
When he quotes scriptures; he twists it the way the serpent twisted God's word and beguiled Eve. You are of the party that gathers around themselves a great number of teachers to teach them what their ears are itching to hear. Joagbaje is just obliging you.

Snowwy:

@Nuclearboy,
kindly show us in the bible where it was said that the righteousness of Elijah and Enoch was a gift from God as you just stated.

^^ I SAID

Considering that the Word says NO man is righteous and that all our righteousness are as filthy rags before God, I would say that the righteousness of these two gentlemen was a gift from God - Just like Abrahams' which is explicitly stated.

Which would mean that if Abraham's was EXPLICITLY STATED, then Enoch and Elijah were NOT EXPLICITLY STATED. My post remains above and my inferences and reason for them are clear - I was given a brain and I use it!

I know you, Snowwy, to be of fairly higher intellect than the regular NL CEC gang so you do know what you are doing. Joagbaje has stated a position which I have countered and your warped sense of loyalty and fealty to oyakilome demands that you, a fan of his and Jo, must present as much opposition to my case as possible. This more so especially before NLMediator who it seems, is now the one you all seek to be on your side.

Know this - I am NOT looking for support on NL. Seek all you want but any discerning reader who goes through past posts will see through you and understand what all of you do is come to Joagbaje's defense by attacking any contrary view. NLMediator is obviously more than up to par with the level of your combined intellects and will see through you.

Observers will note what is happening between Aletheia and the "chris" gang!

Once locating an "enemy", Joagbaje sets the ball rolling saying his opponent is wrong, unfair, evil etc. He then withdraws from discussing with such and pretends meekness avoiding all quarrel and anger. He fixates on his quiet poison but his gang then show up and start to tear into the "opponent". Gradually, the individual finds himself more involved in countering their insinuations and attacks rather than "teaching" the alternative to Joagbaje's poison. A few more posts and another (Azibulua or better still, that animal "newmi") will show up, then mabell etc.

This allows Jo to quietly come back, spread some more poison and at the same time, defend himself ignoring the truth posted from such opponent by saying "he is fighting and attacking people and that is not Christian". It also creates white space so the "truth" becomes part of the previous pages!

Brilliant (for devils).

This is likely what Jesus faced that caused Him to call people "Hypocrites", "White washed sepulchers", "Generation of vipers" etc.

Their ancestors did it and here they are again, doing same and calling Right "evil"

@aletheia,
Does he 'twist' scriptures or gives his interpretation based on scriptures?

The above scriptures he posted on salvation in OT and NT, don't look like 'twisted' IMHO.

Or do you mean the scriptures show your interpretation to be twisted?

@Nuclearboy,
Abraham believed God and it was 'imputed' (reckoned, counted) unto him for righteousness.
Enoch walked with God and he was not for God took him.
Elijah was a great prophet of God who God used and he was taken up to heaven.
I am yet to come across the bible passage that says they were righteous because it was a gift from God.
If there is no scripture like that, seeing you just used your head, then it means you gave your own human knowledge and not bible knowledge.
So is this not what you often say MOGs do?
I leave it at that.

@Nuclearboy,
you say you know me? i doubt that very much. You just have an impression of me and even the impression is wrong.

You just painted a scenario above of what happens when the 'CE' group attacks those against them. Well I cannot speak for them.
But one thing I know you and your crew do is to call on each other when one of the 'CE' members post something.
Your crew actually make posts like 'where is so so and so when you need them', 'let so so and so come o'.
There was even a time I made a post that you guys remind me of wolves.
There was a time you and your crew said something about me arguing alone of which I responded that I cannot be afraid when I stand on the word.
Does that sound familiar?

I am just surprised that now you painted this scenario like its not what you guys do.

I stand for the truth, backed by God's word.

Another daft post - Does God look upon iniquity? Read the Bible for an answer or just remember why God forsook Christ on the cross

So if God walks with you, you are righteous, No? Since He cannot even look at it or you think He walked with Enoch whist blind-folded?

Is there any man that is righteous of his own "works" or attempts? What does the Bible say about man's righteousness?

So if God looks upon these AND even lives with them (or where would you say God took them to? Hellfire??), they must be righteous, isn't it?

And if NO MAN can be righteous of his own works, then it is "imputed" to them, isn't it?

By who? Oyakilome? Or Revd King?

Show one time I ever called for help in dealing with anyone.

Show one time when I was involved where you said "we" (who is we and who are my crew members) argued like wolves!

We all know Joagbaje knows at least mabell (they even slept in the same place), newmi, azibulua, fyneguy etc PERSONALLY. We also know Joagbaje is also known as "AKHOZEM" amongst other IDs.

I have met KunleOshob only ONCE when he came around to town for a party and called me.

I have NEVER met Aletheia, Enigma, SirJohn etc.

It may also interest you that I have met over 300 members of Nairaland on business so meeting him and one other person in Religion does seem disproportionate when you consider that less than 4% of my activity on NL has been outside "Religion", doesn't it?

Keep up with the "chris" work - you will get your just dues presently. "With the perverse, I will show Myself perverse" is what the Word says!

Nuke

There is a lot these people do not understand. What you find is that people like Joagbaje, Eddie long, Creflo Dollar, Oyakhilome etc are able to fool people simply because people do not think carefully, they do not read the scriptures carefully and, critically, they do not read the scriptures holistically. Thus it is very easy for Joagbaje and co to string a few passages together, give an interpretation filled with poison, and yet many will swallow it hook, line and sinker.  See an example (which I'm sure many will soon defend https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-687483.0.html#msg8498248)

The Bible says faith is a gift --- was it a gift under the New Testament or under the Old Testament as well? The Bible says Abraham's faith was counted for him as righteousness --- does even that not fall within the category of a gift (even if we say faith under OT was not a gift).

A man says, Enigma I believe in you and I count that for him as making him entitled to one of my cars. . . .

Meanwhile consider Joagbaje's duplicity again (and at Joagbaje please prove what I am about to say wrong). When aletheia said Joagbaje claimed that Abraham was not saved, Joagbaje denied it and he subsequently took my bait that what he said was that Abraham was not "born again"; so he had not said that Abraham was not saved. Now consider the below and its implication:

Joagbaje:

If we assume the Jews were saved already on the basis of the law ,we should also remember  Gentiles were also converted to Judaism, like  cornelius and the ethiopean eunuch . so if the Jews were born again by works of the law ,the Gentiles who  were converted to judaism also should be counted born again under the law. We are still left with the question, if they could have been saved without the death of christ, he didn't need to die .

Besides ,paul made it clear that the gospel brought salvation to Jews and Gentiles . . . .

So (especially at Joagbaje):

1. Was Abraham saved?
2. Was Abraham saved without the death of Christ?

^^ You honestly expect Jo to answer those questions? 

I laugh in CE tongues - "sharaptaricewithdodoandebaaftercosiamveryhungry- hungrychrisyaksisspeakinrubbishsometoomstsayopata"

Well, maybe its time for our newer members to see the art of selective amnesia and sight at work!

Cos otherwise, confusion will break more than bone today on this thread!

EDITED: By the way, I really liked his "rationale" on your link - God has forgiven Eddie Long for a sin he refused to admit? Yeah, right!

When did he ask for forgiveness when he didn't admit it, anyway? Its "revelation knowledge" that MOGs are forgiven for sins they did not commit!

nuclearboy:

^^ You honestly expect Jo to answer those questions? . . .

Of course that's another one of his fraudulent tactics: he keeps saying "let's discuss scripture" --- but when you refute him well, he will slink away quietly, wait a few days, then start the very same falsehood again.

nuclearboy:

Another daft post - Does God look upon iniquity? Read the Bible for an answer or just remember why God forsook Christ on the cross

So if God walks with you, you are righteous, No? Since He cannot even look at it or you think He walked with Enoch whist blind-folded?

Is there any man that is righteous of his own "works" or attempts? What does the Bible say about man's righteousness?

So if God looks upon these AND even lives with them (or where would you say God took them to? Hellfire??), they must be righteous, isn't it?

And if NO MAN can be righteous of his own works, then it is "imputed" to them, isn't it?

By who? Oyakilome? Or Revd King?

I wonder how you reason sometimes.
My post above was based on scriptures as seen below.

Gal 3:6 - Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness
Heb. 11:5 - By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God

You are yet to tell me where you saw the scripture that said they were righteous because God gave them a gift of righteousness. You are fighting so vehemently for a logic you reasoned. Is pleasing God and believeing God of which they were seen as righteous, the same thing as them being righteous because it was a gift of God?

Please post maturedly as it is very obvious whose post is daft here.

aletheia:

^
I understand your angst: your livelihood is threatened;

I never told anyone my livelihood is threatened. I rather make money nd put into the gospel. I have many friends here. Even on Facebook. They know the things I do. I make good money. He can be lying his head off , I don't have his boyish time. I only said ,if you want to abuse me , leave church out if it. It's un ethical, personal ,privacy attack should stop. Such things may have consequences.  Well, that's you people small minded problem.

that is why you are on the offensive against aletheia.

Me on the offensive? It's the other way round Biko .

No doubt if you had my email, by now you would be sending your duplicitous missives my way.

Feeling of importance .

.

Snowwy:

I wonder how you reason sometimes.
My post above was based on scriptures as seen below.

Gal 3:6 - Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness
Heb. 11:5 - By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God

You are yet to tell me where you saw the scripture that said they were righteous because God gave them a gift of righteousness. You are fighting so vehemently for a logic you reasoned. Is pleasing God and believeing God of which they were seen as righteous, the same thing as them being righteous because it was a gift of God?

Please post maturedly as it is very obvious whose post is daft here.

I said thrsame before, there is difference between righteousness been credited to a person as in Abraham ,righteousness by works of the law as in Moses and others and the righteousness of the christian.

A christian has the exact righteousness God has. Not only that, he became the very righteousness itself.

Paul made us to know the difference between the righteoudneses.

Philippians 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

@Joagbaje

1. Was Abraham saved?
2. Was Abraham saved without the death of Christ?

Pls read my earlier post. I explained everything there. It was nominal

Joagbaje:


I never told anyone my livelihood is threatened. [size=18pt]He can be lying his head off[/size] , I don't have his boyish time. I only said ,if you want to abuse me , leave church out if it. It's un ethical, personal ,privacy attack should stop. Such things may have consequences.  Well, that's you people small minded problem. I rather make money nd put into the gospel. I have many friends here. Even on Facebook. They know the things I do. I make good money.

IS HE (me) LYING HIS HEAD OFF? The emails are there, dude and can be posted here - did you or NOT say it can cause problems for you at church cos nobody sent you here? I know you won't answer because we both know the truth!

@Snowwy:

Obviously, speaking and writing fair english is not reason enough to assume intellect. I apologize for crediting you with higher than above par CE intellect and will forthwith place you on the same pedestal as newmi.

@all:

BTW, Jo also stepped in deeper shite when he mentioned "converted" gentiles yet insists that Christs sacrifice is the only way. What then do you say of those who lived righteous lives but never heard of Christ either before or after His earthly sacrifice and who have now passed? Or those alive in china, saudi etc who have never heard because oyaks prefers to return the gospel to the land of dollars rather than the ends of the earth?

Think carefully before committing those tens of Billions of damnation and explain why the Judge of the Whole Earth does right!

Joagbaje:

Pls read my earlier post. I explained everything there. It was nominal

Please give straight answers (or I am justified in the view of you as being deceitful with your posts):

1. Was Abraham saved?
2. was Abraham saved without the death of Christ?


Please realise that if you are still evasive, then you were lying when you denied the truthfulness of aletheia's post.

nuclearboy:


@Snowwy:

Obviously, speaking and writing fair english is not reason enough to assume intellect. I apologize for crediting you with higher than above par CE intellect and will forthwith place you on the same pedestal as newmi.

I did not expect more than this from you. I can see it is a maturity issue.

@Enigma:

He has explained himself - Abraham was nominally (partially) saved (but lived in hellfire) until Jesus (died, was tortured and Himself became born-again then made Abraham and co able to receive the same) when he became fully saved and received his transfer to heaven with Enoch who was in the 2nd heaven and Elijah too.

Purgatory is real after-all  

Of course, he dares not answer those questions. and this is their problem - half-baked lazy people climb on stage and give pep-talks interspersed with scripture and of course, nobody can question them on pulpits. But bring them down  off the high-horses and the shallowness is appalling

@newmi's double:

eff off!

Ephesians 2

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

nuclearboy:

IS HE (me) LYING HIS HEAD OFF? The emails are there, dude and can be posted here - did you or NOT say it can cause problems for you at church cos nobody sent you here? I know you won't answer because we both know the truth!

The point is that pastor chris is against defending against opponent, one or two CEC members have once come online to rebuke me, saying I'm not a real CEC member, because I ought not to be defending anything  . What ever defence here I had, I was pushed into it. I told you ,I came here to make post as a christian. You guys created this defence thing out of me. I had to break protocols. I had refused to enter any CEC thread when I first came on NL.