StarBoard: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/article-2715565/TRANSFER-NEWS-COLUMN-Everton-consider-Manchester-United-s-Tom-Cleverley-Louis-van-Gaal-trims-squad.html

Some folks will have temporary erec.tions reading this:

that story shouldn't even be given a second look - cleverley has played his way back into the team.

n0m0705: "@OTFaithful: Complete list of United's first-team squad player wages and contract expiry dates http:///hRMw0hgQTH #mufc"

I don't agree with Shaw's

coogar:

system is the same, only formation & personnel switched. in your first system, young & valencia become the full backs when defending. in the second one, you claim only 4 defenders maintain the offside trap - that is wrong. the defensive midfielder sits between both centre halves to sweep.

so before should be....
rafael--rio--carrick--vidic--evra.

right now.....
valencia--smalling-jones-evans-young.



they did....
they have always done so either to spite moyes or to use it later to bring him down when the results go bad. this is the british media.....it's their way! overhype them at first & harshly criticise later. it's the world of 2 extremes.

* carrick plays in front of Vidic and Ferdinand. He only slots in between when situation warrants. Like when one of the CB has gone to cover for a full back. Carrick is a shield to the CBs and not a CB while we defend.

But Valencia and Young are full backs when we defend under this formation.

* All the media outlets quoted Gaal at same time, and it's same information. If he were misinterpreted, one or two should have quoted him as saying a different thing.

Nihilist: To be honest, the difference between the Wing Back and Winger or Wing Back and Full Back is very minute.

The name Wing Back suggests a cross(pun intended) between winger and full back.

Valencia in particular has been more or less playing as a wing back for the last 2 seasons, hence his occasional appearances at RB and he is Van Gaal's obvious choice in the Wing Back position over Rafael.

Coogar is right in this on this one.

Valencia is doing exactly the same as he was last season

I am afraid you got it wrong. First, Valencia occasional appearance at the right back did not start in the last two seasons. It started almost since his arrival. Infact, last season was about his least.

Secondly, it doesn't look like you watch United preseason matches to understand exactly the difference between Val's role now and previous. Val didn't usually displace the right back from his position as he does now. He supported the LB. Now he's the LB while while we defend, the actual LB moves to central defence.

Thirdly, Valencia used to run ahead of midfielders while we build, now he plays with them on same line, or even slightly behind.

Finally, your definition of a wing back doesn't match with Coogar's. I will expose this later when I am free.

StarBoard:
I think it is a two sided argument:
There's no denying his talent. All he needed was a little bit mentoring before being considered irredeemable.
Fergie cast him off at the slightest opportunity in my view. He wasn't given a chance to play for the senior side.\ and that was rather unfair given his performances with the youth squad.

I Don't think he was casted off easily by fergie, I learnt fergie personally sat him down and tried to talk sense into him, the team even surported him during his court cases. I think the guy is just irredeemable.

coogar:

if he was still in man utd, he would be in the USA like blackett, ben amos & william keane. the only reason morrison keeps getting into trouble is because he's idle.

SAF still messed up giving up on him too easily. allowances should be given to football geniuses that are wayward off-the-pitch. morrison is the best young english player.

The boy is a walking time bomb and fergie new that, he got invoved in trouble too often for a teenager. I still think fergie was right to let him go

coogar:

what is the difference?
he's playing where he would normally play in a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1. when defending, ashley tracks back to help his full-back. what's the difference, i ask?

y'all are making this wing-back thingy look like a new concept. every winger in a 4-4-2 playing in the premier league is technically a wing-back, maybe except ronaldo after a while & fergie beefed him for a while.

so you dunno milner, kuyt, nani, valencia, etc have been doing this role for aeons?

Here, Coogar thinks or even defined wing backs as wingers who track back to help his defence. I remember he even used Rooney as an example of someone who has played that role previously.

coogar:

you are making this up.....
i can name 6 fullbacks who have played the wing-back positions in their entire career & vice versa. it's practically the same thing.

evra at man utd was a fullback playing the role of a wingback - he is the one delegated to defend & attack on that side especially when we had kagawa or mata tucking in from that side. clichy/kolarov are fullbacks in wingback positions. silva & nasri are tucked in, the width is mainly provided by kolarov/clichy.

dani alves, evra, roberto carlos, cafu, marcelo, baines, etc have all played as wingbacks all their lives. the difference is not having any player ahead of them doing the attack. in that wise, there's virtually any winger in the premier league that hasn't been tasked to fill that role(when defending).

football has evolved.
fullback in it's originality is a wide defender whose responsibility is only to defend. thus, the term fullback. 100% back-player. wing-back plays further forward - tasked to support the attackers & cover his tracks at the back. so he attacks/defends depending on state of play.


that has been the norm in modern football for at least the last 20 years with cafu & roberto carlos pushing the boundaries. ashley young is playing in the zone he has always played for us but with an extra assignment of defending what's behind him.

Here, Coogar think a wing back is a defender (full back) who can overlap to provide attacking threats and cope attacking stats.
...........................

* This is contradiction.
* Under 4-4-2, it then means Evra and Young/Rooney are wingbacks at same time, on same side of the pitch and in same match. Same as Rafael and Valencia.
Gaal in his wisdom has come up with a new formation and new functions for our wingers. He plays three standing defenders and made our wingers specialists in several things. Anyone who has seen our matches this season shouldn't be in any doubt as to the fact that our wingers are operating differently. Enough said already.

coogar:

y'all are making this wing-back thingy look like a new concept. every winger in a 4-4-2 playing in the premier league is technically a wing-back, maybe except ronaldo after a while & fergie beefed him for a while.

so you dunno milner, kuyt, nani, valencia, etc have been doing this role for aeons?

Here, Coogar thinks or even defined wing backs as wingers who track back to help his defence.

coogar:

you are making this up.....
i can name 6 fullbacks who have played the wing-back positions in their entire career & vice versa. it's practically the same thing.


dani alves, evra, roberto carlos, cafu, marcelo, baines, etc have all played as wingbacks all their lives.

Here it's the defenders, not wingers anymore.





How can we have two wing backs on same flank in same match, or even four wingbacks for a team in a particular match?




This tells me that what Gaal is doing is far different and special.

StarBoard:
Could you give any name for the CM position you think would serve at this point?

I would still love Vidal. Those prices are off putting but we absolutely need someone like him. I wouldnt mind Khedira too but again Khedira isnt a £25m player to me.apart from the names, we need the scouts to actually pull their finger out and do their jobs.

elampiro:
Here, Coogar thinks or even defined wing backs as wingers who track back to help his defence.


Here it's the defenders, not wingers anymore.


How can we have two wing backs on same flank in same match, or even four wingbacks for a team in a particular match?

when we had keane/scholes in our midfield. you mean both of them played defensive midfielders at the same time or attacking midfielders at the same time?

or.....when we were using a 2-pronged attack with cole/yorke. which of them was the 10 & which was the 9? by your logic above, we had 2 number 10s & no number-9? or we had 2 number-9s and no number-10 at all?

logic, oh logic - why hast thou fail elampawa?

MrTA:

I would still love Vidal. Those prices are off putting but we absolutely need someone like him. I wouldnt mind Khedira too but again Khedira isnt a £25m player to me.apart from the names, we need the scouts to actually pull their finger out and do their jobs.

Hummels and Vidal won't be bad additions!

coogar:

when we had keane/scholes in our midfield. you mean both of them played defensive midfielders at the same time or attacking midfielders at the same time?

or.....when we were using a 2-pronged attack with cole/yorke. which of them was the 10 & which was the 9? by your logic above, we had 2 number 10s & no number-9? or we had 2 number-9s and no number-10 at all?

logic, oh logic - why hast thou fail elampawa?

You said Evra played wingback all his life. And you also said Young had always played this role everytime. So we have been playing four wing backs ever since? If we add Rafael and Valencia, it meant we had four wing backs in every match.

coogar:

when we had keane/scholes in our midfield. you mean both of them played defensive midfielders at the same time or attacking midfielders at the same time?

or.....when we were using a 2-pronged attack with cole/yorke. which of them was the 10 & which was the 9? by your logic above, we had 2 number 10s & no number-9? or we had 2 number-9s and no number-10 at all?

logic, oh logic - why hast thou fail elampawa?

Remember too, compare likes for likes. Apples and Oranges. Lol

elampiro:

Here, Coogar thinks or even defined wing backs as wingers who track back to help his defence.



Here it's the defenders, not wingers anymore.





How can we have two wing backs on same flank in same match, or even four wingbacks for a team in a particular match?




This tells me that what Gaal is doing is far different and special.

The wing-back is a modern variation on the full-back with heavier emphasis on attack. The name is a portmanteau of "winger" and "full-back". They are usually employed in a 3-5-2 formation, and could therefore be considered part of the midfield, although they may also be used in a 5–3–2 formation, in which they would have a more defensive role.

In the evolution of the modern game, wing-backs are the combination of wingers and full-backs. -Wikipedia

Valencia has always played this position for united. I would argue that Rafael and Valencia were both fielded as wingbacks on the right flank, with perhaps slightly more defensive duties for Rafael.

Both players were required to take up advanced positions and perform defensive duties at the same time.
Isn't his defensive resilience one the reasons many of you have praised Valencia on this thread?

codedguy1:

Hummels and Vidal won't be bad additions!

Where u see them?

MrTA:

I would still love Vidal. Those prices are off putting but we absolutely need someone like him. I wouldnt mind Khedira too but again Khedira isnt a £25m player to me.apart from the names, we need the scouts to actually pull their finger out and do their jobs.

Both are absolutely above decent players.
Khedira bosses midfields when he is on top of his game. Vidal can play anywhere behind the main striker.

I think Vidal is being used as bait by Juve knowing we are in some kind of need for his type, though I still remain to be convinced that the signing will happen. van Gaal doesn't appear to even look in his direction by dropping any kind of hint that he wants him., which for me is the crucial factor.


I was thinking someone like Memphis Depay would do good, but I think he is quite limited. In the new system he would have to feature as a striker which is not likely to beefit either him or the club.
I also hear that Arsenal are on the verge of getting the Carvalho we thought was ours, at least according to the papers.

Nihilist:

The wing-back is a modern variation on the full-back with heavier emphasis on attack. The name is a portmanteau of "winger" and "full-back". They are usually employed in a 3-5-2 formation, and could therefore be considered part of the midfield, although they may also be used in a 5–3–2 formation, in which they would have a more defensive role.

In the evolution of the modern game, wing-backs are the combination of wingers and full-backs. -Wikipedia

Valencia has always played this position for united. I would argue that Rafael and Valencia were both fielded as wingbacks on the right flank, with perhaps slightly more defensive duties for Rafael.

Both players were required to take up advanced positions and perform defensive duties at the same time.
Isn't his defensive resilience one the reasons many of you have praised Valencia on this thread?

* Did you see that? 3-5-2 or 5-3-2.

* You have just helped my argument. Is this not what I have been saying all along? There is a difference between a wing back and a full back, also a winger. Wing backs don't have full backs behind them. They play in front of three CBs. They cover the length and breath of their flank. In 4-4-2, we have full backs and wingers. Valencia is a winger while Rafael is the right full back. They may however support themselves with overlapping runs or tracking back.

* Note again. Winger, Wingback, fullback are all different. I will explain soon.

If you understood these roles, you need to ask yourself how you can probably pay wing backs in a 4-4-2.

elampiro:

* Did you see that? 3-5-2 or 5-3-2.

* You have just helped my argument. Is this not what I have been saying all along? There is a difference between a wing back and a full back, also a winger. Wing backs don't have full backs behind them. They play in front of three CBs. They cover the length and breath of their flank. In 4-4-2, we have full backs and wingers. Valencia is a winger while Rafael is the right full back. They may however support themselves with overlapping runs or tracking back.

* Note again. Winger, Wingback, fullback are all different. I will explain soon.

I completely understand what you are saying, but I think where you are making the mistake is assuming that footballers stay static all game.

Barcelona would famously line up in 433 formation, but switch to a 343 during the game with the Busquets dropping between the centerbacks and Alves and Alba pushing up as Wingbacks.

Valencia also used to do that a lot in Ferguson's final season. Evra and Rafael would bomb forward while Carrick sat back. Valencia and Welbeck would then be tasked with some defensive duties.

If you say the system has changed, I agree.

But in terms of duties, very little has changed for Valencia.

Nihilist:

I completely understand what you are saying, but I think where you are making the mistake is assuming that footballers stay static all game.

Barcelona would famously line up in 433 formation, but switch to a 343 during the game with the Busquets dropping between the centerbacks and Alves and Alba pushing up as Wingbacks.

Valencia also used to do that a lot in Ferguson's final season. Evra and Rafael would bomb forward while Carrick sat back. Valencia and Welbeck would then be tasked with some defensive duties.

If you say the system has changed, I agree.

But in terms of duties, very little has changed for Valencia.

I didn't understand your Valencia and Rafael's example.

However, for Val to be considered as playing as wing back, there shouldn't be a permanent right full back behind him. And for Rafael to be considered as playing as a wing back, he shouldn't be part of a four man defence and playing behind a winger at same time.

elampiro:

I didn't understand your Valencia and Rafael's example.

However, for Val to be considered as playing as wing back, there shouldn't be a permanent right full back behind him. And for Rafael to be considered as playing as a wing back, he shouldn't be part of a four man defence and playing behind a winger at same time.

I just gave you a classic example of how Wingbacks are employed at Barcelona.

Oya let's look at your team.

On the right flank, Valencia is notoriously one footed, can't 'drimble' and likes to hug the byline.

Rafael also likes to get up into the opposing half.

Where the likes of Nani will cut in and open space for Rafael, Valencia hasn't got the inclination and/or skill to do so.

So what happens? Valencia sees an obstacle he can't beat, and then either passes left to his central midfielder, or right to Rafael.

When Rafael bombs forward, Valencia sits in his position.

Stop me when I start telling lies. Any of you can.

So we seen a winger who occasionally swaps position with his fullback.

Wikipedia has told us that Wingback = Winger + Fullback

So what's the argument?

We are discussing duties here bruv, and not system.

Or do the central midfielders in a 442 have different duties to central midfielders in a 352?

From this pics, it can be seen wing backs are responsible for covering the full back positions. The traditional full backs are not existent, instead there are three central defenders which play close to one another leaving the flanks for the wing backs (particularly when defending as we have seen in Gaals games so far).

This is full backs and wngers.

The full backs take care of the defensive flank. They can overlap. The wingers can fall back to defend, but with the full back with last man responsibility at the flank.

*** In the wing back system, these full backs don't exist to protect the flanks.

Elampiro positions are very fluid in football.

Infact, I would argue that contrary to what people think, united actual line up in a tweaked version of 343 based on the Rmadrid game I watched

Mata to me seems to function more as a false 9 under Van Gaal than a pure 10, and Rooney and Welbeck actually play wide.

Off the ball, Welbeck and Rooney were pressing the Madrid fullbacks, and operated mainly like inverted wingers.

The 1st goal in particular highlights this fact in the way Madrid's right back was lured in, so Young could ghost in and score.

Tactical flexibility means players can switch responsibilities on the fly.

Nihilist:

I just gave you a classic example of how Wingbacks are employed at Barcelona.

Oya let's look at your team.

On the right flank, Valencia is notoriously one footed, can't 'drimble' and likes to hug the byline.

Rafael also likes to get up into the opposing half.

Where the likes of Nani will cut in and open space for Rafael, Valencia hasn't got the inclination and/or skill to do so.

So what happens? Valencia sees an obstacle he can't beat, and then either passes left to his central midfielder, or right to Rafael.

When Rafael bombs forward, Valencia sits in his position.

Stop me when I start telling lies. Any of you can.

So we seen a winger who occasionally swaps position with his fullback.

Wikipedia has told us that Wingback = Winger + Fullback

So what's the argument?

We are discussing duties here bruv, and not system.

Or do the central midfielders in a 442 have different duties to central midfielders in a 352?

* Barca don't use wing backs. They play either 4-4-2 or 4-3-3. Barca uses Mascherano and Pique as Central defenders. They use Alves and Alba as full backs (not wing backs.). Sanches and Neymer/Iniester as wingers. Bousquet and Xavi as CMs. Alves overlaps as a full back.

* Man United played 4-4-2. Rafael behind Valencia permanently. Rafael overlaps to support him and interchange passes with Val. Val falls back to help out in defence- but never the full back. Same happens on the left side of the team.

* You mentioned wikipedia. Take a look below for the three roles:
...................


Full-back

The full-backs take up the holding wide positions and traditionally stayed in defence at all times, until a set-piece. Modern full-backs take a more attacking role, overlapping with wingers down the flank. There is one full-back on each side of the field except in defences with fewer than four players, where there may be no full-backs and instead only centre backs.[7] The traditional English full-back was a large, strong man who would make substantial use of "hacking" – deliberately kicking the shins of opponents, a practice that was accepted as legal in Britain but not in other countries, and caused major controversy as the game became increasingly internationalised from the 1950s on. It is now effectively banned everywhere, and it is this in part that has given rise to a different set of defensive roles. The full-backs have become essential in the modern game formation 4-3-3 or the now commonly used 4-2-3-1 formation.

In the modern game, full-backs have taken on a more attacking role than is the case traditionally.[8] Wingerless formations, such as the diamond 4–4–2 formation, demand the full-back to cover considerable ground up and down the flank. Some of the responsibilities of modern full-backs include:

..........


Wing-back

The wing-back is a modern variation on the full-back with heavier emphasis on attack. The name is a portmanteau of "winger" and "full-back". They are usually employed in a 3-5-2 formation, and could therefore be considered part of the midfield, although they may also be used in a 5–3–2 formation, in which they would have a more defensive role.

In the evolution of the modern game, wing-backs are the combination of wingers and full-backs. As such, it is one of the most physically demanding positions in modern football. Wing-backs are often more adventurous than full-backs and are expected to provide width, especially in teams without wingers. A wing-back needs to be of exceptional stamina, be able to provide crosses upfield and defend effectively against opponents' attacks down the flanks. A defensive midfielder is usually fielded to cover the advances of wing-backs.[12]

..............

.

Winger

A winger (left winger and right winger) (historically called outside-left and outside-right, or outside forward) is an attacking player who is stationed in a wide position near the touchlines. They can be classified as forwards, considering their origin as the old outside forward who played out on the "wing" (i.e. side of the pitch). They continue to be termed as such in many parts of the world, especially in Latin and Dutch footballing cultures. However, in the English-speaking world, they are usually counted as part of the midfield having been pushed back there with the advent of the 4-4-2 formation which gradually rose to prominence in the 1960s, given the role additional defensive duties. A winger's main attribute is usually speed which is used to attack and dribble past opponent's full-backs in order to get behind the defence and to then deliver crosses and passes into the centre for their attackers. Occasionally left and right footed wingers may swap sides of the field as a tactical move to enable the winger to cut inside against the opposing full-backs weaker foot, looking for a shooting opportunity or just as a means of opening up the defence. Clubs such as Barcelona and Real Madrid often choose to play their wingers on the 'wrong' flank for this reason.[citation needed]

Although wingers are a familiar part of football, the use of wingers is by no means universal, and many successful teams have operated without wingers. At the 1966 World Cup, England manager Alf Ramsey led a team without natural wingers to the title; this was unusual enough at the time for the team to be nicknamed "The Wingless Wonders".[17] A more recent example is that of Italian club Milan, who have typically played in a narrow midfield diamond formation or in a "Christmas tree" formation (4–3–2–1), relying on attacking full-backs to provide the necessary width down the wings.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_football_positions

I give up.

Nihilist: Elampiro positions are very fluid in football.

Infact, I would argue that contrary to what people think, united actual line up in a tweaked version of 343 based on the Rmadrid game I watched

Mata to me seems to function more as a false 9 under Van Gaal than a pure 10, and Rooney and Welbeck actually play wide.

Off the ball, Welbeck and Rooney were pressing the Madrid fullbacks, and operated mainly like inverted wingers.

The 1st goal in particular highlights this fact is the way Madrid's right back was lured in, so Young could ghost in and score.

Tactical flexibility means players can switch responsibilities on the fly.

* When Mata functions as false 9, this is what you have. See pic.

* In every formation, there's fluidity. Gaal new this before he said he was playing a different system. He said he will play 3-4-1-2 and 4-3-3. He said he's focusing on 3-4-1-2 'cos the boys are used to 4-3-3 already. Are we saying Val doesn't know what he's saying?

There are many more credible websites which clearly defined wing back, full back and clearly distinguished between full backs and wing backs, also wingers. Association football, BBC, etc.

I don't want to bring in too many things into this argument. But it's very clear.

Nihilist:
I completely understand what you are saying, but I think where you are making the mistake is assuming that footballers stay static all game.

Barcelona would famously line up in 433 formation, but switch to a 343 during the game with the Busquets dropping between the centerbacks and Alves and Alba pushing up as Wingbacks.

Valencia also used to do that a lot in Ferguson's final season. Evra and Rafael would bomb forward while Carrick sat back. Valencia and Welbeck would then be tasked with some defensive duties.

If you say the system has changed, I agree.

But in terms of duties, very little has changed for Valencia.

you must be very very brilliant!

wing back, switch back, full back, ding bat, etc hmmm

ok I don't seem to read anything positive about Valencia's contributions in this preseason despite having enough game time. for those who see the games (elampiro, coogar, coded01, afrodoc, etc) abeg how he dey perform?

Ukwu!!!

Carrick has never played between Vidic and Ferdi. Never. What formation will that be when the full backs overlaps? 3-0-1-6?

Even if that were to happen, the wing back won't still exist because neither Val nor Rafael would function as a CM. And neither Young nor Evra. So the shape is lost in the flank to accommodate the wing back role, and the midfield too thin. I.e, the flanks are not free, the midfield is starved, only the attack overloaded. Is that the wing back system? No.

* You cannot have full backs starting a match and still have wing backs.
.................

*** According to BBC, wing backs are employed in a defence of three central defenders. And the wing back are naturally to supply all the width in the team. SAF did not play like this.

SailorXY: wing back, switch back, full back, ding bat, etc hmmm

ok I don't seem to read anything positive about Valencia's contributions in this preseason despite having enough game time. for those who see the games (elampiro, coogar, coded01, afrodoc, etc) abeg how he dey perform?

Valencia is doing very fine just as he should. He has been involved in many of the build up and his defensive duty has been very good. In the last match, he did very well even though he didn't score. Moreover, in the last match, the arrangement of the defence and attack meant we were stronger on the left.

elampiro:

Valencia is doing very fine just as he should. He has been involved in many of the build up and his defensive duty has been very good. In the last match, he did very well even though he didn't score. Moreover, in the last match, the arrangement of the defence and attack meant we were stronger on the left.

I hear he is still in the business of stamping defenders with his attempted crosses