Ibime: Its good to differentiate effectiveness from skill.

Henry is effective and tactically flexible because he has a good physical quality called speed.

The reason Valencia fits better into Utd's 4-4-2 than Hazard would is because he has immense physicality, can run flank up and down, and gives no headache to a manager tactically, as he will handle right wing both offensive and defensive, even attack from right-back if he has to. Ashley Cole never ever crossed the half-way line against Valencia and that tells me more of his effectiveness than a thousand step-overs. United were always able to pin Chelsea left-flank in their half, which allowed United to play most of the footie in Chelsea half. . . all thanks to Valencia. This is something a million tricks and flicks from Hazard could never do. . . give your team the TACTICAL ADVANTAGE.

The reason I would always prefer Nani to Hazard even in a 4-3-3 is the same. Nani has the skill, but also the physicallity to handle to whole wing by himself, offensively and defensively. He gives you the option to play tippy-tappy, swift counter-attack or cagey defensive football. Hazard cannot meet at least one and a half of these criteria. Whether you want to play your 4-3-3 as a 4-5-1 or 4-2-3-1, Nani would always give a coach more tactical options than Hazard.

preach tamuno, preach!!!

i am sure nateevs must know chelsea suit eden hazard more than united.
hazard is exactly what chelsea need as they have not had a decent winger
in ages. united's needs don't centre around hazard at all....not even at that prize.

£32m to join nani, valencia, young, rooney? come on.....i would rather sign mikel
obi for that amount.

[/quote]

nateevs: I wonder why so many people think that skillful, technical and flashy WILL EQUAL not effective.
I really do not know where it comes from.

The most effective footballers in world football are/were, apparently, the most skillful in their respective eras.

Exactly..... Beats me too.

Spot on regarding your second statement. The Most effective players are more often than not the most skilled.

Ibime: Its good to differentiate effectiveness from skill.

Henry is effective and tactically flexible because he has a good physical quality called speed.

The reason Valencia fits better into Utd's 4-4-2 than Hazard would is because he has immense physicality, can run flank up and down, and gives no headache to a manager tactically, as he will handle right wing both offensive and defensive, even attack from right-back if he has to. Ashley Cole never ever crossed the half-way line against Valencia and that tells me more of his effectiveness than a thousand step-overs. United were always able to pin Chelsea left-flank in their half, which allowed United to play most of the footie in Chelsea half. . . all thanks to Valencia. This is something a million tricks and flicks from Hazard could never do. . . give your team the TACTICAL ADVANTAGE.

The reason I would always prefer Nani to Hazard even in a 4-3-3 is the same. Nani has the skill, but also the physicallity to handle to whole wing by himself, offensively and defensively. He gives you the option to play tippy-tappy, swift counter-attack or cagey defensive football. Hazard cannot meet at least one and a half of these criteria. Whether you want to play your 4-3-3 as a 4-5-1 or 4-2-3-1, Nani would always give a coach more tactical options than Hazard.

I am a big fan of Nani as well. One thing we must not forget though is that Nani is 25 and Hazard is 21.

The Hazard you saw in Lille was the cornerstone of the team. Valencia isn't and neither is Nani to United.
For that reason, tactical discipline is easy to surmount.

At Lille, it all went through Hazard, at least for the last two seasons.
He popped up everywhere, which meant that more often than not, he wasn't playing as an out and out winger.
One plus to that is that, while at it, Hazard has developed the ability to play across the front.
Something Valencia and Nani will probably never learn to do.

I won't make any conclusions on who's better for now. I don't and have never seen Hazard's skill-set as that of a pure winger.
I will wait till he settles in the league for over a season. Only then can we tell if he's heads and shoulders above the others.

That said, if Hazard lives up to his abilities, those players should not be mentioned in the same sentence with him.

chic2pimp: I wonder why so many people think that skillful, technical and flashy WILL EQUAL not effective.
I really do not know where it comes from.

The most effective footballers in world football are/were, apparently, the most skillful in their respective eras.


Exactly..... Beats me too.

Spot on regarding your second statement. The Most effective players are more often than not the most skilled.

how skilled is pippo inzaghi or toto schillaci?

nateevs:


I am a big fan of Nani as well. One thing we must not forget though is that Nani is 25 and Hazard is 21.

The Hazard you saw in Lille was the cornerstone of the team. Valencia isn't and neither is Nani to United.
For that reason, tactical discipline is easy to surmount.

At Lille, it all went through Hazard, at least for the last two seasons.
He popped up everywhere, which meant that more often than not, he wasn't playing as an out and out winger.
One plus to that is that, while at it, Hazard has developed the ability to play across the front.
Something Valencia and Nani will probably never learn to do.

I won't make any conclusions on who's better for now. I don't and have never seen Hazard's skill-set as that of a pure winger.
I will wait till he settles in the league for over a season. Only then can we tell if he's heads and shoulders above the others.

That said, if Hazard lives up to his abilities, those players should not be mentioned in the same sentence with him.

Nani can play anywhere across the front 4. I dont know where you get that idea.

Valencia is strictly right-wing and mostly 4-4-2 man.

However, I cant see how Hazard "living up to his ability" should not be in the same sentence as Nani. That assumes he has some ability that Nani does not which is patently not the case.

As far as anyone with footie brain is concerned Nani was the EPL Player of the Year in 2010/2011.

Nani would also "live up to his ability" if he was given tactical freedom of 4-3-3, played consistently every season (as he was in 2010/2011) and was made a focal point of his team like Hazard has been all his career. I would like to see Hazard strait-jacketed on the wing and see if he can produce half of what Nani produces.

Mata was like Hazard, shining all over the place, floating where he wanted. When RDM put him in the same tactical strait-jacket on the wing that Nani has been playing all his life, Mata disappeared and was Chelseas worst player in the latter stages of the Champions League, simply cos he lacked the physicality to be as tactically flexible as someone like Nani is.

coogar:

how skilled is pippo inzaghi or toto schillaci?

How skilled was Ronaldo or Romario?

Or how skilled is Messi or Iniesta?.......Weren't those players I mentioned effective too?

coogar:

how skilled is pippo inzaghi or toto schillaci?

Hence the word "most".
There's never been a WPOTY who is just "effective". .

nateevs:
Hence the word "most".
There's never been a WPOTY who is just "effective". .

kaka, cannavaro, george weah, luis figo, rivaldo, lothar matthaus!

Ibime:
Mata was like Hazard, shining all over the place, floating where he wanted. When RDM put him in the same tactical strait-jacket on the wing that Nani has been playing all his life, Mata disappeared and was Chelseas worst player in the latter stages of the Champions League, simply cos he lacked the physicality to be as tactically flexible as someone like Nani is.

This point of view can only go so far.
Put Messi in a tactical straight-jacket and there's every possibility he'll look worse than Ramires.
That doesn't mean he's not 20 times the player Ramires is.

nateevs:


Hence the word "most".
There's never been a WPOTY who is just "effective". .

Fabio Canavaro says Hello

[quote author=coogar][/quote]

I withdraw that statement as Cannavaro works against that assertion.


That said, I sincerely hope that you are not suggesting that those other players were not insanely skillful.
Heck you even had Rivaldo, Kaka in there.

nateevs:

I withdraw that statement as Cannavaro works against that assertion.


That said, I sincerely hope that you are not suggesting that those other players were not insanely skillful.
Heck you even had Rivaldo, Kaka in there.

what flair has rivaldo and kaka got in comparison to your nani,
iniesta, messi or ozil?

nateevs:

This point of view can only go so far.
Put Messi in a tactical straight-jacket and there's every possibility he'll look worse than Ramires.
That doesn't mean he's not 20 times the player Ramires is.

This view will go very far.

The world is littered with players who thought they were too skillful, neglected to learn how to work for the team and never achieved their potential. Berbatov and Riquelme are two of such players, and your boy Ganso is likely to go the same way. Whenever Manure has a big game, Fergie will drop Berba, and just like Mata shoulda been dropped by RDM against Barca if not for the political ramifications of such act.

The likes of Mata and Hazard will come up against umpteen players and teams that will outskill and dominate them where simply waiting for their team to do their work and recycle possession to them will not cut it. Whether playing against Yaya Toure, David Silva, Fabregas, Xavi, Iniesta, Ribery, Robben or a hundred other players I could name, there will always be matches where if they do not work within tactical instruction, they become liabilities.

Why should Messi be strait-jacketed when any manager can guarantee within 98% certainty that he will outskill any of his opponents?

Mata and Hazard may not even be able to outskill some Athletic Bilbao and Montpellier boys who may dominate them from time to time talkless of the top guns. Any player that throughout his football development forgot to develop all aspects of his game, thinking he would always be the best player on the pitch and dominate every game is doing something seriously wrong. Nani has proven in this regard that he can handle all situations as the opposition full-back is strictly Nani's responsibility, not like Hazard and Mata who have spent their whole careers passing on opposing full-backs for their midfielders to mark for them.

coogar:

what flair has rivaldo and kaka got in comparison to your nani,
iniesta, messi or ozil?

Are you serious Coogar?

dayokanu:

Fabio Canavaro says Hello

I knew his name would crop up when Nateevs mentioned skilled WPOTY winners.
Obviously you don't expect him to have Zidane like skill but taking him as he is a centre half, I'd say he was one of the more skilled and cultured centre backs.

Ibime:

This view will go very far.

The world is littered with players who thought they were too skillful, neglected to learn how to work for the team and never achieved their potential. Berbatov and Riquelme are two of such players, and your boy Ganso is likely to go the same way. Whenever Manure has a big game, Fergie will drop Berba, and just like Mata shoulda been dropped by RDM against Barca if not for the political ramifications of such act.

The likes of Mata and Hazard will come up against umpteen players and teams that will outskill and dominate them where simply waiting for their team to do their work and recycle possession to them will not cut it. Whether playing against Yaya Toure, David Silva, Fabregas, Xavi, Iniesta, Ribery, Robben or a hundred other players I could name, there will always be matches where if they do not work within tactical instruction, they become liabilities.

Why should Messi be strait-jacketed when any manager can guarantee within 98% certainty that he will outskill any of his opponents?

Mata and Hazard may not even be able to outskill some Athletic Bilbao and Montpellier boys who may dominate them from time to time talkless of the top guns. Any player that throughout his football development forgot to develop all aspects of his game, thinking he would always be the best player on the pitch and dominate every game is doing something seriously wrong. Nani has proven in this regard that he can handle all situations as the opposition full-back is strictly Nani's responsibility, not like Hazard and Mata who have spent their whole careers passing on opposing full-backs for their midfielders to mark for them.

Some of those statements came across as though it's the first time Mata played against Messi and his Barca mates and as though Mata never played against Bilbao boys. It may be worth, for the purpose of proper analytical review of Mata to find a DVD of how he played against them.

There was no need for Mata to sit back and chase. Because at Valencia, there were very skillful players and he definitely will not have been a liability against them.


A Chelsea side with Hazard, Mata, Hulk, Marin will never need to defend as deep as we did.

--------------------------------------------------

Like I said Hazard is 21 and still has a lot of time to develop the physical side of his game.
Also, Mata just completed his first season in the PL.
For someone who experiencing a stark difference in football culture, I think he's done very well.

Nani was not chasing wingers and attacking full backs when he joined United.
Infact, some United fans still believe Nani isn't that tactically flexible.

coogar:

kaka, cannavaro, george weah, luis figo, rivaldo, lothar matthaus!

Those three were skilful abeg.

chic2pimp:

Those three were skilful abeg.

kaka is skilful? kaka has no flair my friend.
drogba and kaka would be in the same tier...
i would also include rivaldo in their colony.

does kaka have any dribbling skills, leg over,
flair, those fanciful tricks known to nani/ronaldo
or the trickery of david silva going one wy and using
the outside of his leg to pass to an overlapping player?

abeggi....

coogar:

kaka is skilful? kaka has no flair my friend.
drogba and kaka would be in the same tier...
i would also include rivaldo in their colony.

does kaka have any dribbling skills, leg over,
flair, those fanciful tricks known to nani/ronaldo
or the trickery of david silva going one wy and using
the outside of his leg to pass to an overlapping player?

abeggi....

First of all Rivaldo.
Forget Ronaldo's step over that may or may not come off i've seen Rivaldo produce moments of Individual skill as much as Ronaldo if not more.
Fanciful tricks self him get aplenty

Now unto Kaka, while he may not have the fanciful leg over skills of Ronaldo, to say he is not skilful is absurd.
The same Kaka that has performed the roulette several times. The same Kaka that waltzes his way past players.
Kaka get skill oo

Abeg Let Drogba compete with his mates. The Likes of Gomez and Andy Carroll.

chic2pimp:
First of all Rivaldo.
Forget Ronaldo's step over that may or may not come off i've seen Rivaldo produce moments of Individual skill as much as Ronaldo if not more.
Fanciful tricks self him get aplenty

drogba has produced more moments of individual skill than rivaldo.
as a defender, how do you defend that? or drogba's header against
bayern when mourinho was still there....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQGYvOMiKBI


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etKJm7i0K6I&feature=related
check out goal#16 @ 1.42 secs.
drogba made oliver khan look stupid.

Now unto Kaka, while he may not have the fanciful leg over skills of Ronaldo, to say he is not skilful is absurd.
The same Kaka that has performed the roulette several times. The same Kaka that waltzes his way past players.
Kaka get skill oo

that o'shea has nutmegged figo before doesn't make him skilful.
every footballer has basic skillz....it is the players that do the outrageous
ones consistently we are talking about here. kaka, figo, rivaldo
don't even have 1/10th of berbatov's skills to start with.

Abeg Let Drogba compete with his mates. The Likes of Gomez and Andy Carroll.

drogba is 5000 times better than caroll and twice
better than mario go-miss!

Ibime is the only nucca making brain here. . .

I see Nateevs is still living in la la land thinking signing Hazard/Hulk/Marin means Chelsea "will never need to defend as deep as we did" forgetting teams with better offensive units(i.e Man City) still come to the Emirates and camp in their 6-yard box. Abi how will Hulk and Hazard help you win midfield battle against Song-Arteta-Wilshere

Coogar also thinks Rivaldo, Kaka and Figo aren't skilful

ritchboy: Ibime is the only nucca making brain here. . .

I see Nateevs is still living in la la land thinking signing Hazard/Hulk/Marin means Chelsea "will never need to defend as deep as we did" forgetting teams with better offensive units(i.e Man City) still come to the Emirates and camp in their 6-yard box. Abi how will Hulk and Hazard help you win midfield battle against Song-Arteta-Wilshere

Coogar also thinks Rivaldo, Kaka and Figo aren't skilful

i did not say they aren't skilful....i said they are not in the
top tier of the skilful players in europe. you wouldn't put
anyone up there with berbatov....would you?

not to talk of nani, cristiano, okocha, van persie, ozil, etc.

coogar:

i did not say they aren't skilful....i said they are not in the
top tier of the skilful players in europe. you wouldn't put
anyone up there with berbatov....would you?

not to talk of nani, cristiano, okocha, van persie, ozil, etc.

Can you define "skilful"? In any definition Figo is at the "top tier". Forget e-diotic step-overs/flicks, Figo's natural tekkers shyte on Ronaldo/Nani every day of the week. AS IN LUIS FIGO!?!?!?

ritchboy:

Can you define "skilful"? In any definition Figo is at the "top tier". Forget e-diotic step-overs/flicks, Figo's natural tekkers shyte on Ronaldo/Nani every day of the week. AS IN LUIS FIGO!?!?!?

luis figo's tekkers shyte on nani? figo is like george finidi.
he does nothing special. run with the ball, dribble and that's it.
the skill nani used to rape clichy and nasri @ the emirates
some seasons ago is something figo can only dream of.

ritchboy: Ibime is the only nucca making brain here. . .

I see Nateevs is still living in la la land thinking signing Hazard/Hulk/Marin means Chelsea "will never need to defend as deep as we did" forgetting teams with better offensive units(i.e Man City) still come to the Emirates and camp in their 6-yard box. Abi how will Hulk and Hazard help you win midfield battle against Song-Arteta-Wilshere

Coogar also thinks Rivaldo, Kaka and Figo aren't skilful

Dude it's all about the setup. Suckers for English football don't see football any other way.
The obsession with winning 50-50s, midfield battles, defending deep, makes you think football is science.

Do Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Sergio, Alcantara look like midfielders who "can win midfield battles" ?
But they win battles except in a way unfamiliar to many. They win the midfield battle "attacking".

Hell Atletic Bilbao won the midfield battles over two legs against United.
Valencia destroyed supposedly one of the most resilient teams in the PL - Stoke.
These guys are not built like tanks, yet they run English teams to the ground in midfield.

Football is an art and there are more than one way to reach your goal.
While many believe that sliding tackles and power play is the way to win midfield battles, there are others who believe possession and zonal pressing, even with seemingly little and weak footballers, is the way to win it.

My point is, whether Hulk, Hazard, Mata and Marin can win midfield battles is heavily dependent on the system employed by the manager not their size or their strength.


I also like how you make Wilshere, Arteta, Song look like the best discovery ever.
Let the season begin.

nateevs:

Dude it's all about the setup. Suckers for English football don't see football any other way.
The obsession with winning 50-50s, midfield battles, defending deep, makes you think football is science.

Do Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Sergio, Alcantara look like midfielders who "can win midfield battles" ?
But they win battles except in a way unfamiliar to many. They win the midfield battle "attacking".

Hell Atletic Bilbao won the midfield battles over two legs against United.
Valencia destroyed supposedly one of the most resilient teams in the PL - Stoke.
These guys are not built like tanks, yet they run English teams to the ground in midfield.

Football is an art and there are more than one way to reach your goal.
While many believe that sliding tackles and power play is the way to win midfield battles, there are others who believe possession and zonal pressing, even with seemingly little and weak footballers, is the way to win it.

how come these resilent teams batter arsenal fc(the closest team to barcelona)
everyday of the week? how did chelsea manage to eliminate barcelona over 2 legs?
for every highly technical team that has beaten the mechanical one, i can bring out
5 mechanical teams that have beaten the artistes of the game. stop isolating games
like stoke/valencia....bilbao/man utd!

inter won the champions league in 2010 destroying teams of artistes like barcelona and bayern!

coogar:

how come these resilent teams batter arsenal fc(the closest team to barcelona)
everyday of the week? how did chelsea manage to eliminate barcelona over 2 legs?
for every highly technical team that has beaten the mechanical one, i can bring out
5 mechanical teams that have beaten the artistes of the game. stop isolating games
like stoke/valencia....bilbao/man utd!

inter won the champions league in 2010 destroying teams of artistes like barcelona and bayern!

On the contrary, you are the one isolating games.
Arsenal have finished at least fourth over the past 7 seasons. That's a testament to walking over these resilient teams more times than not. These scenarios you mention are isolated.

Inter, Chelsea, are "the isolated events". Mention 2, 3, 5, teams in recent memory who have won the CL not playing good football?

nateevs:
On the contrary, you are the one isolating games.
Arsenal have finished at least fourth over the past 7 seasons. That's a testament to walking over these resilient teams more times than not. These scenarios you mention are isolated.

Inter, Chelsea, are "the isolated events". Mention 2, 3, 5, teams in recent memory who have won the CL not playing good football?

how many times have arsenal beaten stoke in the premier league?
that's not isolated....that particular fixture is a pain in the
neck for wenger particularly at the britannia stadium.

how many of the big teams won @ the britannia this season? none!
that is not isolated or coincidental. the resilent teams are very
difficult to beat when they set their stall to be unbeaten.

coogar:

how many times have arsenal beaten stoke in the premier league?
that's not isolated....that particular fixture is a pain in the
neck for wenger particularly at the britannia stadium.

how many of the big teams won @ the britannia this season? none!
that is not isolated or coincidental. the resilent teams are very
difficult to beat when they set their stall to be unbeaten.

It is isolated because it is insufficient and inconsistent to have any reasonable success with.
It is sufficient to win a handful of games but that's just about it.

I have challenged you to find 2,3,5 teams who have worked their way to UCL success without playing good football.


That said, I do not want to digress further from the focal point. The issue is about "winning midfield battles".
Ritchboy disagrees with me that Chelsea will not need to defend as deep with the signings of Hazard, Marin, Hulk and Mata. He says this is because they cannot win midfield battles.

I say he is wrong because what we do with the ball when we have it is what matters. All the examples I gave was to back up my point.

nateevs:
It is isolated because it is insufficient and inconsistent to have any reasonable success with.
It is sufficient to win a handful of games but that's just about it.

Took the words right out of my mouth. . . .nateevs there surely is hope for you yet!!

nateevs:
It is isolated because it is insufficient and inconsistent to have any reasonable success with.
It is sufficient to win a handful of games but that's just about it.
I have challenged you to find 2,3,5 teams who have worked their way to UCL success without playing good football.

says who? clubs have won big competitions playing defensive.
greece won it in euro2004 playing negative football....
inter won champs league in 2010 doing the same thing.
chelsea fluked their way to win it barely a month ago...
athletico bilbao were given a baptism of fire despite controlling
large portions of the game.

no big team won @ the britannia last season.
stoke drew man utd, chelsea and man city
they destroyed arsenal and tottenham...if ugly football
doesn't work, stoke should have relegated since they joined
the epl...but with the brand of football they serve, they won't
relegate until tony pulis decides to call it a day.

That said, I do not want to digress further from the focal point. The issue is about "winning midfield battles".
Ritchboy disagrees with me that Chelsea will not need to defend as deep with the signings of Hazard, Marin, Hulk and Mata. He says this is because they cannot win midfield battles.

I say he is wrong because what we do with the ball when we have it is what matters. All the examples I gave was to back up my point.

i don't have a dog in this fight with you and ritchboy.
what i am arguing is you saying teams who are reactive don't win at all.
of course, they do win. to beat barcelona in particular, you must win ugly.

nateevs:

Dude it's all about the setup. Suckers for English football don't see football any other way.
The obsession with winning 50-50s, midfield battles, defending deep, makes you think football is science.

Do Iniesta, Xavi, Busquets, Sergio, Alcantara look like midfielders who "can win midfield battles" ?
But they win battles except in a way unfamiliar to many. They win the midfield battle "attacking".

Hell Atletic Bilbao won the midfield battles over two legs against United.
Valencia destroyed supposedly one of the most resilient teams in the PL - Stoke.
These guys are not built like tanks, yet they run English teams to the ground in midfield.

Football is an art and there are more than one way to reach your goal.
While many believe that sliding tackles and power play is the way to win midfield battles, there are others who believe possession and zonal pressing, even with seemingly little and weak footballers, is the way to win it.

Nattevs, you are an embarrassment!

How the feck did you translate "midfield battle" to 50-50s, sliding tackles, "power play", etc!? Abi when did Arsenal midfield become renowned for winning 50-50s, sliding tackles and power play!? Obviously midfield battle = possession.

My point is, whether Hulk, Hazard, Mata and Marin can win midfield battles is heavily dependent on the system employed by the manager not their size or their strength.

Of course Marin, Hazard and Hulk won't win you any midfield battles because they are not midfielders. The team that wins the midfield battle dictates possession. The team that surrenders possession can only play up to a certain level("low/medium blocks" [c] AVB) before they get slaughtered by more skilled opposition. So I'm wondering how Hulk and Hazard will turn Miereles/Ramires to Busquets/Xavi(possession kings) that afford you the luxury of "never having to defend as deep as before". How will Hazard and Hulk help you play higher up the field @ Nou Camp, Allianz Arena or The Emirates?

I also like how you make Wilshere, Arteta, Song look like the best discovery ever.

They may not be the best discovery ever but they will dominate possession against any other midfield in the league more often than not. But apparently you think Hazard and Hulk will have a big say.