shdemidemi:

I never mentioned son bro, I said an image of the real you and not an offspring.

So, in YOUR religious belief you do not believe that YOUR "God" has a SON and that he is not YOUR "God's" offspring?

shdemidemi:

I have a concern with the answer you gave to the 3rd question

The bible made it clear that Adam (man) was made in God's image. This means he was first a man before he was made in the likeness of God.

Christ on the other hand came to the world like a man according to scriptures
Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

I hope you would agree Christ isn't a man like Adam nor like you and me, he only came like man.

If you agree that Christ is the visible image of an invisible God, the same way you agree you see an image of yourself every time you look in a mirror. What does this make Christ?

Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh and not Yahweh the FATHER. Simple as that!

No, I do not agree with your statement "Christ isn't a man like Adam nor like you and me, he only came like man."

I have just previously answered in one of your questions to you that Yahshua is a man just like you and I. Yahshua did not pre-exist his birth as an actual being that was with his and our FATHER Yahweh in the beginning, nor was or is he his and our FATHER Yahweh.

shdemidemi: @ frank

Please answer these questions if you would.

1) Is God visible?

2) when you look at the mirror, whose image do you see?

3) is Christ the image of whatever answer you give to the first question?

4) is Christ just a man like you and I?

1. FATHER Yahweh is invisible and His SON was visible.

2. When I look in the mirror I see my own image.

3. Yes, the Messiah the man is the image of the INVISIBLE Yahweh just as the first Adam (Man) was created in FATHER Yahweh's image.

4. Yes, the Messiah was just a man like you and I.

sunkoye: I was tempted to come back with ur inference. Am very sure u are familiar with isaiah 9v6-
For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders. And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace. Frank...kindly answer my questions with honesty. Who is the prophet talking about? What are the notable attributes in the titles below? Regards.

JPS version, done in 1917. The Holy Scriptures According to the Masoretic Text: A New Translation. Philadelphia: Jewish Publication Society of America reads as follows:

"For a child is born unto us, a son is given unto us; and the government is upon his shoulder; and his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor (See END NOTE) -Abi-ad-sar-shalom."

The 1985, and the revised e-edition of 1997, render Is. 9:5b as:

"... he has been named "The Mighty God is planning grace (d);
The Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler."

(d) = as in 25:1

Many question why the the JPS 1917 transliterate this portion of the passage as opposed to translating it. The reason is quite obvious. Christian translations have traditionally understood this prophecy to refer to "Jesus", and then used this quite complicated name as a series of messianic titles. The JPS wanted to avoid this, and to emphasize that this is a (real or symbolic) personal name. Just like "Jonathan" is not translated "Yahweh-has-given" in the A.K.J.V. of the Bible. The A.K.J.V. does not translate "Immanuel" in 7:14 and etc. as "God-is-with-us".


END NOTE:
The Hebrew for "mighty god" in Isaiah 6:9 is gibbor el, which is nearly the same Hebrew as the name of the angel Gabriel. ...

The Net Bible has this interesting note on the title gibbor el ["mighty God"]:

"probably an attributive adjective ["mighty God"], though one might translate "God is a warrior" or "God is mighty." Since this title is apparently used later (10:21, but cf. Hos. 3:5) for God, some have understood it as pointing to the king's deity. Others argue that the title portrays the king as God's representative on the battlefield, whom God empowers in a supernatural way (see Hayes and Irvine, Isaiah, 181-82). The latter sense seems more likely in the original context of the prophecy. Having read the NT, we might in retrospect interpret this title as indicating the coming king's deity, but it is unlikely that Isaiah or his audience would have understood the title in such a bold way. Ps 45:6 addresses the Davidic king as "God" because he ruled and fought as God's representative on earth. Ancient Near Eastern art and literature picture gods training kings for battle, bestowing special weapons, and intervening in battle. According to Egyptian propaganda, the Hittites described Ramses II as follows: "No man is he who is among us, It is Seth great-of-strength, Baal in person; Not deeds of man are these his doings, They are of one who is unique." (See M. Lichtheim, Ancient Egyptian Literature, 2:67) Isa. 9:6 probably envisions a similar kind of response when friends and foes alike look at the Davidic king in full battle regalia. When the king's enemies oppose him on the battlefield, they are, as it were, fighting against God himself."

Notice that the NetBible scholars are Trinitarians, yet they are realistic and fair minded enough to recognize that gibbor el is not a title of deity. Other scholars agree.

Actually, the passage is not a particularly good one for Trinitarians. It would help the Oneness folks a lot more. The Trinitarian does not regard Jesus as the Father, yet the passage says he shall be called "everlasting father." The Trinitarian has to do all sorts of twisting to insist that "gibbor el" should be taken as telling us that Jesus is God, but then the next phrase they have to explain away to tell us that he is not the Father. ...

THE MIGHTY EL - THE EVERLASTING FATHER
Isaiah 9:6

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulders: and his name shall be called Wonderful Counselor, The Mighty God, The Ever lasting Father, The Prince of Peace" (KJV).

It seems that the Name which was to be given to Yahshua, the Son of Yahweh the Father, is a descriptive Name or Title which honors Yahweh. The Messiah came "in his Father's Name" (John 5:43). Below are quotations from several versions of the Bible which help to make clear the meaning of Isa. 9:6.
(Some versions number it as verse 5).

The Complete Bible, By Smith and Goodspeed.
"For a child is born to us; and the government will be upon his shoulders; and his name will be called 'Wonderful counselor is God almighty, Father forever, Prince of peace.'"

Knox Version
"For our sakes a child is born, to our race a son is given, whose shoulder will bear the septre of princely power. What name shall be given him? Peerless among counsellors, the mighty God, Father of the world to come, the Prince of peace."

The Emphasised Bible
"... And his Name hath been called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, * Father of Futurity **, Prince of Prosperity."

Isaiah 9:6 LXX
For a child is born to us, and a son is given to us, whose government is upon his shoulder: and his name is called the Messenger of great counsel: for I will bring peace upon the princes, and health to him.

* Footnote by the translator: "el gibbor, as in chapter 10:21".

** "Father of Progress".

The Holy Scriptures, by The Jewish Publication Society of America, Philadelpheia; 1917, 1945, 1955.
"... And his name is called Pele-joez-el-gibbor-Abi--ad-sar--slalom." ***

*** Footnote by the translator: "That is, Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the everlasting Father, the Ruler of Peace."

Holy Bible - Catholic Layman's Edition, Catholic Press Inc., Chicago; 1964.
"... and his name shall be called, Wonderful Counselor, God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace."

Douay-Rheims Version
"... and his name shall be called, Wonderful Counsellor God the Mighty, the Father of the world to come, the Prince of Peace."

The Leeser Version
"His name shall be called, Wonderful Counselor of the mighty El, of the everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace, ..."

This Son was to be given names (or titles) which describe, honor and extol the heavenly Father in his exulted position. It is not that every one of these names describe the person and attributes of the Son to be born. Take the name Eliyah. The meaning is, "Yah is El." This does not mean that Eliyah was El. Instead, Eliyah describes and reveals who Yahweh is; Yahweh is El. Many other names could be cited. So it is with Isa. 9:6. These names describe the grandeur and glory which the heavenly Father is entitled to receive.
SOURCE: http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/716756993/does-isayah-96-proclaim-yahshua-to-be-yahweh

Mr anony:
I think you are referring to someone else


Lolololol, I didn't even know there was such a thing as Moffatt until you brought it up in your translation jumping adventure. Now I quoted it back to you and it happened to debunk your claims, it has become "erroneous" abeg no no make me laugh.

It says it right there in Hebrew 1:8-10 and you conceded it by accepting that it was speaking to the Son while referring to Him as Yahweh from Psalm 102:25


My dear, both are in reference to the Son. The bible never says in Hebrews that now it is changing to the Father. That is your own invention. Hebrews makes it clear that it is referring to Christ as Yahweh. You can't deny that.

The bible says exactly what it says, it doesn't need special editing from you. The bible makes it clear in Philipians 2 that Christ being God in essence did not want to take advantage of His equality with God but humbled Himself to take the form of man. So when Christ says "the Father is greater than I", He is speaking the truth from a point of humility


Let the same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, he humbled himself and became obedient to the point of death--even death on a cross.
- Philipians 2:5-8

Mr anony:
It says it right there in Hebrew 1:8-10 and you conceded it by accepting that it was speaking to the Son while referring to Him as Yahweh from Psalm 102:25

I agreed that it was speaking of the son in the first part, but that in the second part it was giving reference to FATHER Yahweh as the Creator. I have never conceded that the second part was referring to Yahshua as Yahweh. You enjoy twisting and perverting my words in the same manner that you twist and pervert FATHER Yahweh's inspired prophetic word.

Hebrews never refers to the Messaih as Yahweh. I can deny this for the simple fact that one who is to be the anointed [messiah, "christ"] King must have someone who is to anoint them as King. Why would FATHER Yahweh Who is ALMIGHTY need to be anointed by anyone, since He has always been King Supreme from the very beginning? There is no one graeter than FATHER Yahweh! This is simply just more foolishness from you!

Philipians 2:5-8 speaks of Yahshua the SON of FATHER Yahweh taking the form of a man, not that FATHER Yahweh took the form of a man. Being in the image or form of FATHER Yahweh is not being Yahweh. FATHER Yahweh created man in His form or images, but that did not make them Yahwehs! Note that Yahshua is given reference to as the second Adam (MAN), not "God-Man" as Trinitarians and Oneness people falsely teach.

Philippians 2:5-8

Let this mind be in you, which was also in the Messiah Yahshua: Who, being in the form of Yahweh, thought it not robbery to be equal with Yahweh: [B]But made himself of no reputation[/b], but took upon him the form of a servant, and was MADE in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of being executed.

Many are attempting to make Yahshua out to be "God" when in this verse it makes quite clear that Yahshua "made himself of no reputation." Note also in this verse it says that he "became obedient unto death." If Yahshua was ALMIGHTY Yahweh, who was it that he "became obedient unto death" to when there was supposedly no one graeter than he?

Scripture clearly teaches that there is only one Mighty One ["God"] and that there is no other beside Him. He even says Himself "I know not any!"

ELOHIM: ONE, OR MORE THAN ONE?
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/761316151/elohim-one-or-more-than-one


THE MAN, YAHSHUA
Revised 3/12/12

Before his death, Yahshua was referred to as "man," or "the son of man," approximately 65 times as recorded in Scripture. He referred to himself as "the son of man."

Yahshua is also recorded on one occasion in translation of the so-called "New Testament" as referring to himself as "me, a man" (Yahchanan [John] 8:40). Scripture clearly teaches that FATHER Yahweh is not "a man" (Numbers 23:19; 1 Samuyl 15:29; Hoseyah 11:9; Iyyob 33:12; 1 Corinthians 8:6; 1 Timothy 2:5). Not once is it ever recorded in ANY translation of the so-called "New Testament" as Yahshua the SON OF FATHER Yahweh giving reference to himself as "God" or "a god".

After his resurrection, even after he ascended into heaven, he was referred to as "man," or "son of man," more than 30 times. Total equals more than 95 times.

Before His Resurrection
A man among men

Matthew
8:20; 9:6; 10:23; 11:19; 12:8,32,40; 13:37,41; 16:13,27,28; 17:9,12,22; 18:11; 20:18,28; 25:13; 26:2,24,24,45

Mark
2:10,28; 8;31; 9:9,12,31; 10:33,45; 13:34; 14: 21,21,41

Luke
6:5,22; 7:34; 9:22,44,56,58; 11:30; 12:8,10; 17:22; 18:8,31; 19:10; 22:22,48; 24:7

John
1:51; 3:13,14; 5:27, 6:7,53,62; 8:28; 12:23,34,34; 13:31

Acts
2:22

After His Resurrection
And at his second coming

Dan. 7:13 - A man from heaven
Mt. 19:28 - A man from heaven
Mt. 24:7 - A man from heaven
Mt. 24:30 - A man from heaven
Mt. 24:37 - A man from heaven
Mt. 24:39 - A man from heaven
Mt. 24:44 - A man from heaven
Mt. 25:13 - A man from heaven
Mt. 25:31 - A man from heaven
Mt. 26:64 - A man in heaven
Mk. 8:38 - A man from heaven
Mk. 13:26 - A man from heaven
Mk. 14:62 - A man in heaven
Lk. 9:26 - A man from heaven
Lk. 12:40 - A man from heaven
Lk. 17:24 - A man from heaven
Lk. 17:26 - A man from heaven
Lk. 17:30 - A man from heaven
Lk. 21:27 - A man from heaven
Lk. 21:36 - A man from heaven
Lk. 22:69 - A man in heaven
Jn. 1:51 - A man in heaven
Jn. 3:14 - A man in heaven
Acts 7:56 - A man in heaven
Acts 17:31 - A man in heaven
Rom. 5:15 -
1 Cor. 15:21 -
1 Cor. 15:47 - A man from heaven
1 Tim. 2:5 - A man, Yahshua Messiah
Rev. 1:13 - A man in heaven
Rev. 14:14 - A man in heaven

Please note that Yahweh and the Scriptures state emphatically that HE IS NOT A MAN (or human in any sense of the word).

Yahweh is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent. Has He said, and will He not do? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it right? (Numbers 23:19).

And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor relent. For He is not a man, that He should relent (1 Samuyl 15:29).

Behold, in this you art not right: I will answer you, that Yahweh is greater than man (Iyyob [Job] 33:12).

I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am Yahweh, and not man; the set apart One in the midst of you: and I will not enter into the city (Hosheyah [Hosea] 11:19).

The Complete Jewish Bible translates this verse even clearer for us:

Hosea 11:9 I will not give vent to the fierceness of my rage, I will not return to destroy Efrayim; for I [Yahweh] am Elohim, not a human being, the Holy One among you; so I will not come in fury. (CJB)"
SOURCE: http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/760190434/the-man-yahshua

hisblud: @frank Strong is pro trinitarian according to you. Now kindly give me the rendering of ps45.2,6 in hebrew and state which hebrew concordance you are referring to. Thanks

Any Hebrew concordance will tell you that the rendering is 'elohim' and as I have just told you the Hebrew word (although not originally Hebrew as a whole) 'elohim' in translation can refer to Yahweh, angels, JUDGES, gods, idols, and even mere human beings. It all depends on the content in determining how it is to be properly translated.

When I say "although not originally Hebrew as a whole" in reference to the word 'elohim', I am giving reference to the Hebrew people adopting the Cannaanite name 'Elohim' in relation to the Hebrew root word 'yl, ul, or wl' which simply meant strenght, power (authority), or might and was not a name, but simply an attribute. The Masoretic scribes substituted the name/title 'Elohim' for the Name of our Heavenly Father and Creator. The Century Bible, Volume 1, pages 90-91, tells us the following:

"Hebrew was originally written without vowels, but when the "vowel points" were added, the vowels of "Adonay" or "Elohim" were written with YAHWEH, as a direction that these words were to be read instead of the word whose consonants were YAHWEH; thus we find the combinations YeHoWaH and YeHoWiH."

Other Sources:

"The Masoretes consistently marked the name with vowel signs indicating that the divine name Adonai ["Lord"], or at times Elohim ["God"] was to be substituted for it when the Bible was read. Confusion about this custom led to misreading the name as JEHOVAH. In most English versions of the Bible it is translated "Lord."

Although the name Yahweh was first revealed to MOSES in Exod. 3:14, it occurs in the creation story (Gen. 2) and is said to have been used from the time of Seth and Enoch (Gen. 4:26)." M. G. ROGERS From: Abingdon Dictionary of Living Religions pg. 810.

"Yahweh - “The Masoretes who from the 6th to the 10th century worked to reproduce the original text of the Hebrew Bible replaced the vowels of the name YHWH with the vowel signs of Adonai or Elohim. Thus the artificial name Jehovah came into being.” The New Encyclopedia Britannica[/i, vol. 12, 1993 ed.

"After the Exile (6th century B. C.), especially from the 3rd century B.C. on, Jews ceased to use the name Yahweh ... As Judaism began to become a universal religion through its proselytizing in the Greco-Roman world, the more common noun elohim (q.v.), meaning "god", tended to replace Yahweh At the same time, the divine name ... was thus replaced in the synagogue ritual by the Hebrew word Adonai (My Lord) ..." ([i]The New Encyclopedia Britannica: Micropedia, Ready Reference, vol. 10: p.786).

Now, most references only refer to the word 'Adonai' being substituted for the Name Yahweh (Yahowah), since this is the most prominent word that is substituted for the Name Yahweh (Yahowah). As noted in the sources above, the name/title 'Elohim' was also a substitute occasionally. As an example the following sources only mentions 'Adonai' as a subtitute:

"In the course of the centuries the actual pronunciation was lost. In the Middle Ages Jewish scholars (Masorete scribes) developed a system of symbols placed under and beside the consonants to indicate the vowels. YHWH appeared with the vowels from "Adonai" as a device to remind them to say "Adonai" in the reading of the text. A Latinized form of this was pronounced "Jehovah," but it was actually not a real word at all. From a study of the structure of the Hebrew language most scholars today believe that YHWH was probably pronounced Yahweh (Yah' weh). See God; I am; Jehovah; Lord; Names of God." Mark Fountain - Holman Illustrated Bible Dictionary

"Yahweh is an Anglicized version of the Name of God, as spoken during the time of the Temple and understood by Judaism and Christianity as taught in the Old Testament or the Bible. In the Hebrew written language, which often uses no written vowels, The Name is written YHWH, but never spoken. However, because Jews generally were forbidden by the Third Commandment to pronounce the sacred name, the vowels of Adonai (literally 'my lords') were normally inserted between its consonants, resulting in the name 'Jehovah'. Reflecting the same taboo, the earlier English translations of the Bible replaced the name with the phrase 'the LORD'. Because Jesus' followers routinely called him adon ('boss', 'lord', which translated into the gospels' Greek as kurios), the two titles became confused in English, to the point where it became unclear whether the phrase 'the LORD' was referring to Jesus or to Yahweh." SOURCE: http://conservapedia.com/Yahweh

"JEHOVAH, ji-ho'va (... properly yahweh): The form 'Jehovah' is impossible, according to the strict principle of Heb. vocalization. It is due to the arbitrary transference of the vowels of adonay, lord', to the sacred name _ _ _ _ after the Jews became over-scrupulous as to the pronunciation of the Name ...." A New Standard Bible Dictionary Funk & Wagnalls Company, New York and London, 1936, pg. 418
SOURCE: http://yahweh.yolasite.com

Where you find the words "the LORD" with "LORD" being in all capital letters in most so-called "Holy Bible" translations, this is where our Hevenly FATHER and Creator's Name was removed and substituted by the Masoretic Jewish scribes (copyist). You will find this information in most Bible dictionaries under "Jehovah" or "Tetragrammaton."

Theses Jews and in turn the translators dod not give Yahweh the esteem that is due unto His Name (Psalm 29:2, 96:8 & I Chronicles 16:29).

FATHER Yahweh's Name has been dispised:

A son honours his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a Father, where is My honour? and if I be a Master, where is My reverence given? says Yahweh of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise My Name. And you say, Wherein have we despised Your Name? You offer polluted bread upon My altar; and you say, Wherein have we polluted You? In that you say, The table of Yahweh is contemptible (Malakyah [Malachi] 1:6-7).

They despised His Name so much that they forbade their people to even make mention of His Name. They instructed them to no longer pronounce His Name and instead substitute for His Name mere name/titles such as Adonai ("the LORD", Elohim ("God or Gods", and HaShem (The Name).

But if serving Yahweh seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves at this time whom you will serve, whether the gods [idols] your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods [idols] of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve Yahweh (Yahshua 24:15).

O Yahweh our Mighty One, other masters beside You have had dominion over us: but by You only will we make mention of Your Name (Isayah 26:13).

I have made Your Name known to these men whom You gave me from the world. They were Yours, and you gave them to me, and they have kept our word (Yahchanan [John] 17:6).

hisblud: haha two things i deduce from you is 1. Elohim is a pagan name- so in your own knowledge, we have been calling on a pagan god? Eh? Now we are getting to know who is who? Since Elohim was referred in 2places in ps45.2 and 6, debunking your views and all your scholars, that Elohim was mentioned in v6, from which the hebrew writer referenced as Son. You deliberately wish it did not by quoting various scholars who were not in agreement. SMH.
2. Strong's concordance is from a trinitarian- Ok oh, kindly give us the hebrew rendering apart from Strong's concordance, of ps45.6? Thanks

So, you have not read in Scripture where FATHER Yahweh instructed the Hebrew people to go into Canaan and not to learn of their ways in the manner that they worship "Gods" and take up the names of their "Gods" and they in turn disobeyed His instruction? I have previously made it known that the scribes (copyist) substituted our Heavenly Father and Creator's Name for the mere name/title 'Elohim' and that the translators instead of correcting this error instead followed in the scibes erroneous tradition.

THE NAME YAHWEH
http://yahweh.yolasite.com

The Hebrew rendering is 'elohim' and as I had just told you the Hebrew word (although not originally Hebrew as a whole) 'elohim' in translation can refer to Yahweh, angels, JUDGES, gods, idols, and even mere human beings. It all depends on the content in determining how it is to be properly translated.

hisblud:
if hebrew wasnt the original, kindly help me know what was the original language. In addition, i have shown you that, with pictures of the hebrew(tho you claim strong's is trinitarian hence his bias and waiting to see your claim of original language apart from hebrew), that God is Elohim, while god is lohyim and the word judge is NEVER Elohim but something else which i showed you earlier, Which you have not refuted.

I never said "Hebrew was not the original language." And I have just shown you that the Hebrtew word 'elohim' is not always in reference to FATHER Yhaweh. The Hebrew word (although not originally Hebrew as a whole) 'elohim' in translation can refer to Yahweh, angels, JUDGES, gods, idols, and even mere human beings. It all depends on the content in determining how it is to be properly translated.

rezzy: Reading from my KJV Colossians 1 vs 16
For by him where all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, dominions, or principalities or powers: all things were created by him and for him

Yes, this is how my King James Bible reads also, but I can cleary see that there is an error with this translation or that it is a contradiction and I know that Father Yahweh's word can not contradict itself. It was either FATHER Yahweh or it was His SON Yahshua that created "ALL THINGS." Following the King James Bible translation, both FATHER Yahweh and His SON Yahshua created "ALL THINGS." Since in Scripture (FATHER Yahweh's inspired prophetic instruction) it teaches MANY TIMES that it was FATHER Yahweh Who created "ALL THINGS", this most certainly would be true. FATHER Yahweh has said that He is the Creator of "ALL THINGS", but not once will you find recorded in the so-called "New Testament" Yahshua proclaiming that he is the Creator of "ALL THINGS." In fact, you will not find recorded in this section of Scripture as proclaiming that he had created ANYTHING! Since FATHER Yahweh has said MANY TIMES that He is the creator of the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM and that Yahshua has never proclaimed that he had created ANYTHING, I must conclude that it is FATHER Yahweh Who is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. Simple as that!

Then you go on to say:

rezzy:
God created the world alone. Yes im not doubting that because Jesus and God are 1.

Where Yahshua says that he and the FATHER (OURS and HIS) are one is commonly used by Trinitarians and Oneness people in attempt to promote their false and deceptive "Jesus created" and "Jesus IS God!" doctrines. Following your reasoning above that "Jesus created" because he said that he and his FATHER are one, you would also have to beleive that we are the creators of the heavens and the earth and all things in them and that we are also "God" by this same reasoning, since we are also instructed in Scripture to become one with FATHER Yahweh and His SON Yahshua. This deceptive twisting of what Scripture is actually saying will not work on me, since I already know what he actually meant by his saying that his and our FATHER Yahweh are one. He did not mean or say that they were "one and the same being" as many Trinitarian and Oneness people would have you believe. What he truely meant by what he said here is that they are in agreement with each other. This reasoning is in accordance with what he had said when he was communicating ["praying"] to his and our FATHER Yahweh Who was IN HEAVEN when he himself was HERE ON EARTH:

I have given them the esteem that You gave me, that they may be one EVEN AS WE ARE ONE--I in them and You in me--so that they may be brought to complete unity. Then the world will know that You sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me (Yahchanan [John] 17:22-23).

There are MANY other verses and paasages in this section of Scripture that speak of us being united as one in agreement with FATHER Yahweh and HIs SON Yahshua. We are not "God" or the Creator simply because we are one with Father Yahweh and neither is His SON Yahshua.

The following Scripture clearly show that FATHER Yahweh and His SON Yahshua are two separate beings:

John 3:16 - For Yahweh so loved the world that he gave his Son.
John 3:17 - Yahweh sent his Son into the world. Did Yahweh send himself?
John 5:37 - You have not heard nor seen the Father, but they had seen the son (two different persons).
John 5:37 - There are TWO witnesses - (1) Father and (2) Son.
John 5:43 - Yahshua came in the Father's name, but they did not receive Him.
John 8:18 - There are TWO witnesses; he Father and the Son.
John 8:19 - You know neither me NOR my Father (two persons).
John 10:29 - The Father is greater than all (others).
John 12:28 - Yahshua said, "Father, glorify thy name." A voice answered. Was it Yahshua answering himself?
John 14:1 - You believe in Yahweh, believe ALSO in me.
John 14:25 - My words are not mine, but his who sent me.
John 14:28 - My FATHER Is greater tan I.
John 15:1 - I am the vine. My FATHER is the vine dresser.
John 15:9 - The Father loved me, so I have loved you (disciples).
John 15:10 - If you love me you will keep my commandments just as I ahve kept my Father's commandments.
John 15:24 - They hated BOTH me AND my Father.
John 16:3 - You have not known the Father nor me.
John 16:28 - I CAME down from the Father and GO to the Father.
John 16:32 - I am not alone, for the Father is with me.
John 17:1 - Yahshua prayed to the Father. Did he pray to himself?
John 17:3 - ETERNAL LIFE is knowing you, the ONLY TRUE EL, AND Yahshua the Messiah whom you sent. (Do we want eternal life?)
John 17:4 - I glorified you on earth, and finished the work you gave me to do.
John 17:5 - Now Father glorify me.
John 17:11 - Father keep my disciples, that they may be ONE AS WE ARE ONE. Comment: Yahshua and his Father were "one" just as the 12 Apostles were to be "one;" that is, "one in purpose and doctrine."
John 17:18 - As YOU sent ME, so I send them into the world.
John 17:21 - That they may all be one in US; you and I.
John 17:22 - The Apostles may be one as WE are ONE. Were the 12 Apostles only one person, rather than 12 persons? Just as the Apostles were 12 individual persons, but with one goal, so the heavenly Father and his Son were two individual persons with one goal.
Romans 1:4 - "And declared to be the Son of Yahweh, ... by his resurrection from the dead: ..."
Gal. 1:1 - Yahweh (the Father) raised from the dead Yahshua (the Son).
Yahshua was subject to death, but his Father was not subject to death.
Eph. 6:23 - Peace to all from Yahweh the Father AND from Yahshua. Two seperate and distinct persons are referred to.
Phil. 1:2 - Grace from Yahweh our Father AND from Yahshua the Messiah. Two seperate and distinct parties are mentioned here.
Col. 1:1 - Paul an Apostle of yahshua the Messiah by the will of Yahweh (two persons).
1 Thes. 1:1 - Peace from Yahweh the Father AND the Savior Yahshua.
2 Thes. 1:2 - Grace and peace from Yahweh the Father AND from Yahshua the Messaih (two persons).
1 Tim. 1:1 - Paul, an Apostle of Yahshua by command of Yahweh AND Yahshua the Messiah (two persons).
1 Tim. 1:2 - grace, mercy and peace from Yahweh the Father. AND from Yahshua the Messiah.
2 Tim. 1:2 - Grace and peace from Yahweh the Father, AND from Yahshua our Savior.
Titus 1:1 - Paul, a sevant of Yahweh, AND an Apostle of Yahshua.
Philemon 3 - Grace to you, and peace (1) from Yahweh our Father AND (2) from Yahshua the Messiah.
Heb. 1:1 - Yahweh in time past spoke to the prophets, but in these last days has spoken to us by his Son.
James 1:1 - James, a servant of (1) Yahweh, and (2) Yahshua.
1 Pet. 1:3 - Blessed be the El and Father of our Savior Yahshua.
2 Pet. 1:2 - Grace to you through the knowledge of Yahweh, AND of Yahshua Messiah (two parties).
1 John 1:3 - Our fellowship is with the Father, AND with his Son Yahshua the Messiah.
1 John 2:1 - If any one sins, we have an advocate with the Father, Yahshua the Messiah.
2 John 9 - Whoever abides in the doctrine of the Messiah has BOTH the Father AND the Son.
Jude 4 - Some deny the only Yahweh, AND our Savior Yahshua the Messiah (two persons, Father and Son).
Rev. 1:1 - The revelation which Yahweh gave to himself? No. No. Yahweh did not give the revelation to himself, but to his Son Yahshua the Messiah.
Rev. 3:21 - Overcomers will sit with me (Yahshua) in my throne, as I overcame and sit with my Father in his throne. Two thrones are spoken of: The Father's throne, and the Son's throne.
Rev. 21:22 - No temple was there for Yahweh the Almighty AND the Lamb are the temple in new Jerusalem (also V 23).
Rev. 22:1 - The river of life flows from the throne of Yahweh AND of the Lamb.
Rev. 22:3 - No more curse will be there for the throne of Yahweh AND of the Lamb will be in the city.

SOURCE:
YAHWEH & YAHSHUA
Are They One and the Same Being?
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/712187271/yahweh--yahshua---are-they-one-and-the-same-being

rezzy:
Like i said before, everyone is using a version that will suit his belief. For example, you said Strong is bias because he is a trinitarian, same with other translators who are antitrinitarians. They translated the bible to back up their claims. I just found out of recent that some bibles dont have 1 John 5 vs 7 and when i asked a JW, he said so many things and i asked him just one question. Dont you think the translator of the JW bible omitted that verse to suit his belief? After some days, he said, its only God that knows the truth.

What i always conclude with is, whatever is been said about us (trinitarian), God still hears and answers our prayers even your prayers. (antitrinitarains).

I do not use a version to suit my belief. I use many versions/translations of Scripture and compare them. In all of theses versions/transltions I have learned that we are to believe and confess that Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh. NOWHERE in ANY of these versions/translations have I ever leaned that we are to believe and confess "Jesus IS God" or "Jesus IS Creator", simply because the Scripture never ask that we believe and confess such foolishness.

Following is the information that I have on 1 Yahchanan 5:7-8:

The Johannine Comma

For there are three that that bear witness in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.

This verse is found in no ancient manuscript, and can be proved to have been inserted, perhaps in the fifth century, to support the doctrine of the Trinity. It is the one verse in the New Testament which is entirely spurious, and has now been struck out from every good text. The Literature of the New Testament By Ernest Findlay Scott, Professor Emeritus of Biblical Theology, Union Theological Seminary, pgs. 267-268. See the proof on 'Bible Researcher' by clicking on the following hyperlink.

The Johannine Comma - 1 John 5:7-8
http://www.bible-researcher.com/comma.html

More Informative Links On The Johannine Comma

The Textual Problem in 1 John 5:7-8 By Daniel B. Wallace
https://bible.org/article/textual-problem-1-john-57-8

Erasmus and the Problem of the Johannine Comma By Josheph M. Levine
http://muse.jhu.edu/login?auth=0&type=summary&url=/journals/journal_of_the_history_of_ideas/v058/58.4levine.html

Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comma_Johanneum

Theopedia
http://www.theopedia.com/Johannine_Comma

SOURCE: http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/?uni52498476-direction=p&uni52498476-nextdate=7%2F6%2F2010+13%3A56%3A1.193

Mr anony:
In addition to that God says that His Son created the Heavens and the earth in verse 10. Frosbel and co have not shown beyond reasonable doubt that the Father is referring to anyone else other than the Son.

FATHER Yahweh says that it was He "ALONE", "BY HIMSELF" with "NO ONE BESIDE HIM" that created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM. Yahshua is nevere once recorded in the "so-called "New Testament" as proclaiming that he had created ANYTHING!

hisblud: @frank4Yahweh all you posted there am sorry to disappoint you, they are bunch of confused lots who have tried to worship God in vain, when all ps45.6 shows in the original language that Elohim in vs6 is same word used for Elohim in v2. And moseso, they are falling over themselves to twist the hebrew to mean what it does not say, some saying judge when no judge word, i implore you, reread the literal hebrew rendering [strong concordance] of that verse for a change.

The only way that you disappoint me is in that you can actually believe in the foolish, false, deceptive, and demonic so-called "Holy Trinity" doctrine! James Strong's work is not "the literal hebrew rendering" and he is in fact a Trinitarian and his works reflect his bias.

As I have previously made known, the Hebrew word (although not originally Hebrew as a whole) 'elohim' in translation can refer to Yahweh, angels, JUDGES, gods, idols, and even mere human beings. It all depends on the content in determining how it is to be properly translated. I myself do not give reference to FATHER Yahweh by the name/title "Elohim" , because of it's pagan Canaanite origin as a whole. The root of this word as derives from the Hebrew word root 'yl, wl, ul that simply means 'might, strength, power or authority. FATHER Yahweh is the only one Who is refered to as "ALmighty." and as "the Mighty One of mighty ones."

rezzy: From all the posts above, i av come to a conclusion that the translation of d bible has been our problem on the issue of trinity.
Anybody can wake up and decides to translate the bible to suit his belief.
@frank4yahweh, if u say Jesus didnt pre-exist before his birth, then enlighten me on Colossians 1 vs 16

Yahshua Created?

Does Hebrews 1:1-2; Colossians 1:16-17 & John 1:10 Say That Yahshua Was Involved in the Creation of the World?

Please note how these passages are translated in the Emphatic Diaglott Greek Interlinear.

Diaglott, Hebrews 1:1-2

Hebrews 1:1 In many parts and in many ways long ago the God having spoken to the fathers by the

prophets, in last of the days of these spoke to us by a son,

Hebrews 1:2 whom he appointed an heir of all things, (on account of whom also the ages he made,)

Diaglott, Colossians 1:16-17

Colossians 1:16 because in him were created the things all, the things in the heavens and the things

on the earth, the things seen and the things unseen, whether thrones, or lordships, or governments,

or authorities; the things all on account of him and for him have been created;

Colossians 1:17 and he is in advance of all, and the things all in him has been placed together;


Diaglott, John 1:10

John 1:10 In the world he was, and the world through him was, and the world him not knew.

The Greek word di' or dia which is translated 'by' in the A.K.J.V. and 'through' in the R.S.V. in Hebrews 1:2 is translated 'on account of' in the Emphatic Diaglott.

This changes the meaning of this passage of Hebrews 1:1-2 considerably from how the K.J.V. and the A.S.V. translates. It does not say that Yahshua was involved in the creation of the world, but that the world was created "on account of" him. This translation brings Hebrews 1:2 in harmony with the entire context of Scripture, in that it was Father Yahweh Who created the heavens and the earth ALONE (cf. Psalm 121:1, 33:6-9; Isaiah 44:24) . Following is how the K.J.V. and the R.S.V. translates Hebrews 1:2.

K.J.V., Hebrews 1:2

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by [his] Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

R.S.V., Hebrews 1:2

but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world.

Now, I ask you, are you going to ignore the entire context of Scripture where it is said that Father Yahweh ALONE created the heavens and the earth for how a translator may have translated a word in a few passages?

Even Yahshua himself credited Father Yahweh for the creation of Adam and Eve, not even so much as mentioning that he had any hand in creating them.

Have you not read, that He Who made [them] at the beginning made them male and female, ...? (Matthew 19:4; Genesis 1:27).

From what Yahshua said in the above verse, one can clearly see that he was giving reference to the creation account and he did NOT SAY 'Have you not read, that it was I who made [them] at the beginning [and] that it was I who made them male and female, ...? No, Yahshua made it clear that we should read what it taught in Scripture as to who actually done the creating. As I have mentioned previously many times, Yahshua is never once recorded in the so-called "New Testament" proclaiming that he had created ANYTHING! It was FATHER Yahweh "ALONE" "BY HIMSELF" with "NO ONE BESIDE HIM" Who created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM.

Yahshua surely had an involment in the creation of the heavens and the earth in that Father Yahweh had him in mind, but he had no hand in the actual creation in the beginning. He was not a "co-creator" with Father Yahweh in the beginning as many deceptively teach. He did not even "pre-exist" with Father Yahweh, nor was he Father Yahweh. Yahshua was Father Yahweh's son as Scripture teaches.

SOURCE: http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/771448997/yahshua-created

frosbel: ^^^^


You will love this site: http://www.christianmonotheism.com

Have you heard of Sir. Anthony Buzzard?

Yes, I have this web site linked on my site ( http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html ) and have a number of Anthony Buzzard's articles linked there also.

hisblud: *clears throat*

I wish to end this discuss because it has being shown that frosbel and his clan of friends have not shown, beyond any reasonable doubt, that Yashua is not Elohim.

According to Heb 1.8,



God is speaking about His Son, Whom God address as God, Whose throne is for forever and ever! period!

I would open a general thread for another interesting discussion.

Peace!

If you wish to end this discussion on your part, all you need do is not respond with your erroneous suppositions!

Well of course it is not reasonable to you to strictly adhere to what FATHER Yahweh's inspired prophetic words say, since your agenda is only to promote so-called "Church" doctrines that are not in agreement with the doctrines taught in Scripture.

FATHER Yahweh does not call His SON "God" according to the following translations which I agree with [in reference to His calling him "God"]:

Targum

Your beauty, O King Messiah, is more stunning than any mortal’s; your lips are endowed with the spirit of prophecy. Due to this the Lord has blessed you forever.

ArtScroll Tenakh Translation

Your throne, O judge, will exist forever and ever; the scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom.

Moffatt Translation

"Your throne shall stand for evermore; for, since your sceptre is a sceptre just, since right you love and evil you abhor, so God, your God, crowns you with bliss above your fellow-kings" (Psalm 45:6-7). This would be Yahweh, Yahshua's Mighty One. Yahshua has not crowned himself. Yahweh will crown him when the time is right (Matthew 25:31; Luke 1:32).

"He says of the Son, God is thy throne for ever and ever, ..." [Hebrews 1:8, Moffatt]. Someone else is the Mighty One ["Elohim, God, deity"], not Yahshua. Yahshua's throne is Yahweh ["Elohim, God, deity"].

New English Bible

"Your throne is like God's throne, eternal, your royal sceptre a sceptre of righteousness" (Psalm 45:6). Yahshua is not Yahweh ["Elohim, God, deity"]. Instead, Yahshua's throne is like Yahweh's ["Elohim's, God's"] throne.

"God is thy throne for ever and ever, ..." [Hebrews 1:8, Translator's footnote, N.E.B.].

Good News Bible

"Thy kingdom that God has given you will last forever and ever, ..." (Psalm 45:6). In this case, the throne represents the kingdom.

"God is your kingdom ..." [Hebrews 1:8, Translator's footnote Good News Bible].

Jewish Publication Society, O.T., 1916

"Thy throne given by God is for ever and ever, ..." (Psalm 45:7). Yahshua is not declaired to be Yahweh ["Adonai, Elohim, God, deity"]. Instead, Yahweh will give to Yahshua a throne which will last forever (Daniel 7:11-14; Luke 1:32; Revelation 3:21).

Isaac Leeser Translation

"Thy throne, given of God, endureth for ever: the sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore hath God, thy God anointed thee with oil of gladness above thy associates."

The Bible in Living English

'... but as to the Son "God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of integrity is the scepter of his reign".'

Revised Standard Version

"Your throne is a throne of God, ...:" (Psalm 45:6, R.S.V. Translator's footnote). The same notation is given in Hebrew 1:8, where this Scripture is quoted. This is true, because Yahshua is (at this time) sitting with the Father in the Father's throne. (Hebrews 1:3). Later, he will sit on his own throne, just as he now sits with the Father in the Father's throne (Revelation 3:21). A footnote in the New Revised Standard Version reads: 'Or, God is your throne ...'. A seperate footnote for the passage "... and the righteous sceptre is the sceptre of your ..." (the footnote in reference to "your" reads: 'other ancient authorities read his'.

American Standard Version

"Thy throne is the throne of God" (Margin: Psalm 45:6, A.S.V.).

Heinz W. Cassirer Version, N.T.

"... when referring to the Son he says, It is God who is your throne for ever and ever; and the sceptre showing forth the uprightness which you bear is the sceptre of God's kingdom. You have love righteousness and hated lawlessness. And so it is that God, who is your God, has has anointed you with the oil of gladness, giving you a greater share of it than any of your fellows.

Still quoting:

"Then there are these words: You, Lord [meaning Yahweh, Psalm 102:25], laid the foundations of the earth when it first took its rise, and the heavens are the work of thy hands" (Hebrews 1:8-10; cf. Deuteronomy 4:35-39; Isaiah 43:10, 44:24, 45:12-18).

There is no support here for "two Yahwehs, pre-existent, co-creator" Yahshua. Father Yahweh really is the Creator. He did it all ALONE, with no help (Nehemiah 9:6; Psalm 33:6-9).

For a free list of more than 100 Scriptures revealing who is the Creator. It was not Yahshua. Please ask for it at: http://www.halleluyah.org . Also available by E-MAILING THEM you can freely receive some 70+ studies that refute the "pre-existence of Yahshua, Holy Trinity, and two Yahwehs" doctrines.

End Notes:

Weymouth Version N.T. [Translator's footnote, Hebrew 1:8].

Quote:

"8. O God] Psalm 45 is a Royal Marriage song, and this translation involves the direct address of an earthly king by the title 'God.' The obvious difficulty has led to various conjectures:

(1) 'Thy throne is the throne of God' (so R.V. margin in the Psalm).

(2) 'Thy throne is God for ever and ever.'

(3) A corrupt Hebrew text, 'Yahweh' (God), being a mistake for the almost identical word meaning 'shall be,' - 'Thy throne shall be for ever and ever,' This conjecture is widely accepted, but the writer of the Epistle [to the Hebrews], in applying these words of the Psalm to the Son, would not feel the difficulty; 'Thy throne, O God' may stand." (Emphasis added).

Weymouth indicates the word Yahweh (God) does not actually appear in the original text. If this is true, then the word 'O God' should not be in the first clause of Psalm 45:6, but should read as #3 above:

"Thy throne shall be for ever and ever ..." This is the way Moffatt reads in Psalm 45:6, noted above. The thought is, once Yahshua sits on his own throne (as heir to the throne of David), his rulership will endure forever. There is no support here for two Yahwehs, or for the pre-existence of Yahshua. It is a mistake to take an ambiuous verse in the King James Version and make it into a doctrine which opposes the cardinal principle of the Scriptures,

"Hear O Isryl: Yahweh our Mighty One is ONE YAHWEH" (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Gesenius Hebrew Grammer (Kautzsch-Cowley), 1949 reprint says, on page 415 paragraph (b): "In Psalm 45:7 chis-a-cha' El-o-him' (usually explained as thy divine throne). El-o-him' is most probably a later addition [another suggestion is to read chEl-o-him' like God('s throne: compare section 141 d, note]."

SOURCE:

Did Father Yahweh call His Son "God"?
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/734899456/did-father-yahweh-call-his-son-god

morpheus24: Judge for yourself.

http://www.apologeticsindex.org/b58.html

http://www.religioustolerance.org/bhi.htm

http://www.hebrewisraelites.org/

http://www.prophetyahweh.com/docs/tbjhisg.htm

Here is the link to "Prophet Yahweh" who supposedly summons flying saucers from the heavens:
http://web.archive.org/web/20100415090008/http://www.prophetyahweh.com/docs/tbjhisg.htm

Of course, all this "Black Hebrew Israelite" stuff is nothing but poppycock!

ALL Nations ..."
http://www.orgsites.com/in/yhwh

Mr anony:
Thank you sir. Please tell him.

You two can tell me such foolishness till you are blue in the face and I will still not believe such foolishness.

Mr anony:
Maybe if you were in Jesus era,this scripture would have applied to you.John 10:33
"We are not stoning you for any good work," they replied, "but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God."

It is obvious that you side with the Pharisees in falsely accusing Yahshua of blasphemy, breaking the Sabbath and making himself out to be "God." These men were out to entrap Yahshua in his words! Why would you take the side of fools? Only a fool would take side with fools! I myself choose to side with what the righteous MAN Yahshua said who was inspired by his and our FATHER Yahweh. I certainly would never side with the unrighteous and foolish Pharisees whose only agenda was to entrap Yahshua in his words. Their agenda most certainly was not in understanding what Yahshua said! Yahshua never once proclaimed to anyone that he was "God." You absolutely will find no record in the so-called "New Testament" where Yahshua ever proclaimed to be "God." He said that he was the SON of Yahweh ["God"].

Mr anony:
yeah but I don't jump from translation to translation in order to force a point I let the text speak for itself.

Yes, you do! You just got through consulted the Moffatt translation to force your erroneous point!

Mr anony:
Lol but the bible makes that profoundly clear. that's exactly what it says in Hebrews 1 or what else do you think the passage was saying?

No, that is not EXACTLY what it says. In fact, nowhere in ANY Scripture translation will you ever find it said "Yahshua IS Yahweh."[/quote]

Mr anony:
Then you are being willfully blind because the passage starts by clearly proclaiming that it is referring to the Son.

The first part is in reference to the SON, but where it says "You did found the earth at the beginning, Yahweh, and the heavens are the work of Your hands they will perish, but You remain.", this is in reference to to his and our FATHER Yahweh, since Scripture clearly teaches that FATHER Yahweh created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM."

Mr anony:
Exactly, it is because the same is said of the Father and the Son that we come to the conclusion that the father and Son are both equally God.

It seems you enjoy it when you make Scripture contradict itself! Yahshua clearly said that the FATHER was GREATER than he.

Mr anony:
Yes I believe that God took the form of a man and was crucified for our sake bearing upon himself the rightful judgment of wrath that our sins deserve.

Again you make Scripture contradict itself! Nowhere in Scripture does it ever say or teach "God took the form of a man and was crucified for our sake bearing upon himself the rightful judgment of wrath that our sins deserve. In fact, it truthfully says that FATHER Yahweh SENT HIS SON into the world. FATHER Yahweh did not say that He sent Himself into the world! Again, it is obvious that you believe that it is possible for mere men to execute FATHER Yahweh by nailing Him to a pagan cross. Pure poppycock!

hisblud: Hi frosbel, got a quote for you from CARM which of the above rendering of the greek is closer to the context?

"God is your throne forever and ever.... would be closer and "Thy Throne O God, is forever and ever..." would most certainly not be a legitimate way to translate, since it does not agree with the context of Scripture as a whole.

Mr anony:
I now see how you read the bible: You read half of a verse in one translation and the other half in another translation as long as it helps you force the verse to say what you want it to say.

The passage in Hebrews clearly refers to the Son and you know it. It is irrelevant whether you agree with the translation or not. The bible has said exactly what it said. "Yahshua IS Yahweh" and Yes God ALONE created the world and all that is therein. You'll just have to put it in your pipe and smoke it.

I do not have to force Scipture to proclaim that FATHER Yahweh is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM", since Scripture already clearly says and teaches this.

And you choose to use a translation from Moffatt to prove your point. You also use other translations other than the Moffatt translation, right? Nothing wrong with comparing diverse translations!

"Yahshua IS Yahweh"? You certainly will not find that quote said in ANY translation of Scripture. And not in the Moffatt translation either! This is a quote from deceived Trintarians and not from Scripture!

I know for a fact that that passage in Hebrews refers to FATHER Yahweh and not to His SON Yahshua when it says "You did found the earth at the beginning, Yahweh, and the heavens are the work of Your hands they will perish, but You remain."

The same is said of FATHER Yahweh in Psalm 102:25 and in verse 22 of this passage the word translated as "God" is in reference to FATHER Yahweh as can be clearly seen by comparing the content to verse 21 where many translations eliminate His Name Yahweh and substitute it for the inferior title "the LORD."

Since you believe "Yahshua IS Yahweh", then you must also believe that it is possible for mere men to execute FATHER Yahweh by nailing Him to a pagan cross. Poppycock!

BTW, I don't smoke!

Mr anony:
Please stop lying, this is getting embarrassing

This is what you said when quoting Hebrews 1:8-10


Here is Hebrews 1:8-10 (according to what you believe to be the proper translation)

he says of the Son, God is thy throne for ever and ever, thy royal sceptre is the sceptre of equity: thou hast loved justice and hated lawlessness therefore God, thy God, has consecrated thee with the oil of rejoicing beyond thy
comrades and Thou didst found the earth at the beginning, Lord, and the heavens are the work of thy hands they will perish, but thou remainest. Hebrews 1:8-10 (Moffatt)

Notice that It is still the same Son that is being spoken to in one continuous passage. Why are you trying so hard to deceive yourself?

I was only using the translation of this verse to point out that FATHER Yahweh was not referring to His SON as "God." I do not completely agree with how the verse was translated as a whole in that it does not distinguish Father Yahweh from His SON in this verse as the following translations do:

English Standard Version
And, “You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of your hands;

New American Standard Bible
And, "YOU, LORD, IN THE BEGINNING LAID THE FOUNDATION OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORKS OF YOUR HANDS;

King James Bible
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:

King James 2000 Bible
And, you, Lord, in the beginning have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of your hands:

American King James Version
And, You, Lord, in the beginning have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of your hands:

American Standard Version
And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands:

Also compare other translation:
http://biblehub.com/hebrews/1-10.htm

I am not in agreement with the above translations of this passage a whole, since a number of them translate as if FATHER Yahweh is giving reference to His SON as "God." Trinitarians would not have a problem with this translation since they are deceptively indoctrinated with the belief that Yahshua is "God" and that he created when Scripture clearly teaches that it was FATHER Yahweh "ALONE, by Himself" with no one beside Him" Who created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM." and that Yahshua is the SON OF Yahweh ["God"].

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html

Mr anony:
...And the blind remain blind. No use beating a dead horse. You have already admitted that Jesus is Yahweh when you said that Hebrew 1:8-10 refers to Christ and refers to Yahweh from Psalm 102:25. You have no case.

Yes, you most certainly are being lead by the blind. No, I have never proclaimed such foolishness. You just have a knack for twisting ones words just as you twist FATHER Yahweh's inspired prophetic word.

hisblud:

here we go again...rezzy asked


Anony Answered




Truthislight gave a good analysis of the bible here


Now you are in agreement that heb 1.8, was quoted by the writer of hebrew which refered to the Son, Yashua. We went to Ps45.6 where it was originally written in Hebrew and the hebrew rendering still points that its still Elohim [God] and not judge or whatever you claim that scholars might think... you claim to depend on scripture, yet its facing you in black and white, that Ps 45.6 , is Elohim and you deliberately refuse to accept it but continually point to some scholars who are not in agreement. SMH

And as has been pointed out by these scholars, what has been translated into our English language as "God" is not always in reference to FATHER Yahweh. This is an English translation of the Hebrew/Canaanite "Elohim" and is not always translated as "God", but can also be translated as giving reference to malakim [messengers, 'angels'], JUDGES, idols, mere human beings and Satan himself. How it is to be translated depends on the context of Scripture as a whole. The word 'elohim' has it's root in the Hebrew 'yl, ul, or wl' which is simply in reference to one or something that is said to have power (authority), strength or might. Yahshua had to be a man just like us! He was not his and our FATHER Yahweh, but is in fact the SON of FATHER Yahweh as Scripture clearly asks us to confess and believe. He was GIVEN ALL power (authority) in heaven and in the earth b\y his and our FATHER Yahweh. Nowhere in ANY Scripture translation are we ever asked to confess and believe the false doctrine "Jesus IS God!" Just as Yahshua became the SON of FATHER Yahweh, we also can become sons (daughters, children) of FATHER Yahweh.

Did Father Yahweh call His Son "God"?
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/734899456/did-father-yahweh-call-his-son-god

Mr anony:
I wonder how this unrelated post proves that the person being referred to in Hebrew 1:8-12 is anyone other than Jesus Christ - and those verses make it clear that Jesus Christ is Yahweh

Nowhere in ANY Scripture translation does it ever say or teach "Jesus Christ is Yahweh."

See: "Jesus IS God!"
http://yahweh.yolasite.com

Bidam: i stop bothering with the fanatic when he doesn't believe the Holy Spirit is God and the baptism of the Holy Spirit,why bother with him.

I believe that the set apart ["holy"] spirit is the power of Yahweh. I do believe in the immersion ["baptism"] of the set apart spirit.

GeneralShepherd:

Why do you bother trying to refute the JWs? Their mind is made up already...

FYI, I am not a Jehovah's Witness. They believe as you do that the Messiah pre-existed his birth and that he is "a god", but I do not! We also differ in MANY other doctrinal points.

My mind is only made up in accordance with what Scripture teaches, but my beliefs are susceptible to change in light of FATHER Yahweh's word as it is revealed to me.

Mr anony:
Lol, so according to you God the Father was speaking to the Son and then halfway mid-sentence He starts talking to Himself but somehow manages to switch back to talking to the Son at the end and yet there is no break in flow? I am afraid you are cooking up a doctrine that is not in scripture.

Nowhere does Hebrews 1:10 tell us of this magical switch of yours. It is as clear as day that the bible teaches us that the Son is Yahweh.

No, this deception will not work with me either!

What you fail to realize is that this is a quote from Psalm 45 and is prophetic of FATHER Yahweh's SON Yahshua and that this is not FATHER Yahweh directly speaking to Yahshua, but is Dawid speaking propetically concerning the future coming promised Messiah who had not yet come into existence at this point in time:

But when the set time had fully come, Yahweh sent His son, born of a woman, born under the law, to redeem those under the law, that we might receive adoption to sonship (Galatians 4:4-5).

Mr anony: Lol, your translation jumping skills are at work again.


Erhm sir...the 'translations' you provided are all saying different things entirely you cannot possibly agree with all of them at the same time.

1. ...Your beauty, O King Messiah, is more stunning than any mortal’s...

2. ...Your throne, O judge....

3. ...God is thy throne....

Which is it that you agree with exactly? or are you just blindly agreeing with anything that disagrees with the deity of Christ?

Furthermore please, after explaining which one you really agree with please explain how it continues in context on to verses 12 of Hebrews 1.

Your comment here makes me wonder if you even know what you are talking about.


You have just clearly shown from Hebrews 1:10 that Jesus Christ is Yahweh indeed.

Here's how Hebrews 1:8-10 reads in the versions you claim to agree with.


he says of the Son, God is thy throne for ever and ever, thy royal sceptre is the sceptre of equity: thou hast loved justice and hated lawlessness therefore God, thy God, has consecrated thee with the oil of rejoicing beyond thy
comrades and Thou didst found the earth at the beginning, Lord, and the heavens are the work of thy hands they will perish, but thou remainest. Hebrews 1:8-10 (Moffatt)

but of the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever; And the sceptre of uprightness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; Therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee With the oil of gladness above thy fellows. And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands: (ASV)

But of the Son he says, "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever, the righteous scepter is the scepter of thy kingdom. Thou hast loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, thy God, has anointed thee with the oil of gladness beyond thy comrades." And, "Thou, Lord, didst found the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the work of thy hands; (RSV)

but as to he Son "God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of intergrity is the scepter of his reign. You loved rectitude and hated wickedness: for this reason, God, your God has anointed you with the oil of joy beyond your fellows, and You at the beginning, Lord, laid down the foundations of the earth and the heavens are the works of your hands: (The Bible in Living English)

But of His Son, He says, "THY THRONE, O GOD, IS FOR EVER AND FOR EVER, AND THE SCEPTRE OF THY KINGDOM IS A SCEPTRE OF ABSOLUTE JUSTICE. THOU HAST LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS; THEREFORE GOD, THY GOD, HAS ANOINTED THEE WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS BEYOND THY COMPANIONS." It is also of His Son that God says, "THOU, O LORD, IN THE BEGINNING DIDST LAY THE FOUNDATIONS OF THE EARTH, AND THE HEAVENS ARE THE WORK OF THY HANDS. (Weymouth)

Since you have granted that the person referred to in Hebrews 1:10 is Yahweh and since we know that verse 8 and verse 10 refers to the same person. You have now explicitly proven that Yahshua is YAHWEH. Thank you.

You sir, have successfully destroyed your false gospel all by yourself. You can now throw it into the bin where it belongs then repent and turn to Christ who is your true God and Saviour.

No, that deception does not work on me either!

Therefore Yahowah, your Mighty One, has anointed you with the oil of gladness above your fellow servants.

This portion of this verse is in reference to Yahshua FATHER Yahowah's SON.

And, You Yahowah, in the beginning did lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of Your hands:

This portion of the verse is in reference to FATHER Yahowah, since Scripture clearly teaches that it was He "ALONE', "BY HIMSELF" with "no one beside Him" that created the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM.

Note that when our Heavenly FATHER and Creator's Name is restored to it's rightful position in Scripture from where it was removed by the scribes and in turn the translators that much of your misconception concerning this verse completely disappears.

Pour out your wrath on the nations that do not acknowledge You, on the peoples who do not call on Your Name (Yeremyah 10:29a).

How long will the enemy mock you, Yahowah? Will the foe revile Your Name forever? (Psalm 74:10).

Remember how the enemy has mocked You, Yahowah, how foolish people have reviled Your Name (Psalm 74:18).

Ascribe to Yahowah the esteem due His Name; worship Yahiowah in the splendor of His being set art (Psalm 29:2; cf. 96:8 & I Chronicles 16:29).

Nowhere in the so-called "New Testament" will you find Yahshua recorded as proclaiming that he had created ANYTHING. In fact, he proclaims that his and our FATHER Yahweh is the Creator of the heavens and the earth and ALL THINGS IN THEM.

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html

truthislight:

My friend, stop this.

If what i have shown you, the right translation is not good enough for for. Fine. But try not to call my name into it hence.
Peace

hisblud,

Nowhere in ANY translation of Scripture will you ever find a doctrine of a so-called "Holy Trinity."

As to Hebrews 1:8:

Did Father Yahweh call His Son "God"?
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/734899456/did-father-yahweh-call-his-son-god

hisblud: Hmm, am i to conclude that heb 1.8 and Ps 45.6 is a milk that anti trinitarians cant drink, rather they beat around the bush?

[size=18pt]HEB 1.8[/size] babes food [milk], hard for Frosbel and his anti-trinitarian to drink, yet he is thinking of going for HARD BONES....

The truth is, the so-called "Holy Trinity" doctrine is not milk and baby food, but is instead more like swines blood and dog food, of which I would never drink or eat.

Father Yahweh's word should be cutting you deep to the very marrow of your bones! The truth hurts, right?

Bidam: Your opinions bro..not scriptures. Keep up with your religious rituals.

No, not my opinion, since "UNKNOWN tongues" is not taught in Scripture. Scripture does not teach anything about "dimension of prayers."

Speaking In Tongues (Languages)
http://www.angelfire.com/wy/Franklin4YAHWEH/Tongues.html

Bidam: Scriptures never called it a false demonic prayer tongues,that is you adding to sacred scriptures.Let God be true and every man be a liar.If you don't understand something why not pray to your God about it instead of displaying your ignorance here? peradventure God might have mercy on you and show you your errors.

Whatever teaching is contrary to what is taught in Scripture is demonic and that in turn would make your "UNKNOWN tongues" doctrine "false demonic prayer tongues."

Bidam:

Romans 8:26 literally reads, ". . . the Holy Ghost maketh intercession for us in
groanings that cannot be uttered in articulate speech."

Paul said in First Corinthians 14:14, "For if I pray in an
unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth. . . ." The Amplified Bible says, ". . . my spirit [by the Holy
Spirit within me] prays. . .."

Paul wrote to the Church at Rome, ". . . we know not what we should pray for as we ought. . ."(Rom. 8:26). He didn't say we didn't know how to pray, because we do know how we are to pray. We are to pray to the Father in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ (John 16:23,24).

That is the correct way to pray. But just because I know how to pray doesn't mean that I know what to pray for as I ought. So Paul said, ". . . we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself [ Himself] maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered" (Rom. 8:26).

The Bible says, "He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifi-eth himself. . ."(1Cor. 14:4).


Jude 20 also links praying in tongues with building yourself up spiritually.
JUDE 20
20 But ye, beloved, BUILDING UP YOURSELVES on your most holy faith, PRAYING IN
THE HOLY GHOST.

I was not talking about your false "UNKNOWN gibberish prayer tongues" doctrine, but about speaking in actual languages. Communicating ["praying"] in the spirit is not speaking gibberish!


Shaul did not say in First Corinthians 14:14, "For if I pray in an
UNKNOWN tongue, my spirit prayeth. . . ."

As I had made known before, the word "UNKNOWN" is an improper addition to the text and should read:

"For if I pray in another language, my spirit prayeth. . . ."

He is not speaking here of speaking in a language that no one knows, since he conveys that he is COMMUNICATING ["PRAYING"] in another language. One can not comnmunicate with someone in a language that they do not know. You again are taking Scripture out of context of what is actually being said, since you left out waht Shaul when on the say:

... What is it then? I will pray (COMMUNICATE) with the spirit, and I will pray (COMMUNICATE) WITH THE UNDERSTANING ALSO also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing WITH THE UNDERSTANDING ALSO. Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest?

How can one understand what you say when you are only speaking gibberish?