Frank4YAHWEH:

The problem is, Scripture nowhere teaches "Yahshua is Elohim" [God]." Scripture clearly teaches that Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh. I myself never give reference to FATHER Yahweh or His SON Yahshua by the name/title 'Elohim.' I prefer to refer to FATHER Yahweh in our English langauge as 'Mighty One' and to distinguishing Him from other 'mighty ones' I refer to Him as 'Almighty One.' This is why I had mentioned one of the root words from where 'El, Eloah, Elohim, etc. derived. It originally has the meaning of power, strength, might and can give reference to anything. Ayil as compared to a ram and in like manner another root of the same catigory which is yl is campared to an oak tree in Hebrew. The "Mighty Oak" and a ram signify power.

[size=18pt]so my question is why change Elohim [God] to HashopeeT [Judge] and secondly, can i interchange them in v2 and v6 of Ps 45 and vice versa...?[/size]

God used in this context as Elohim and the same strongs number is used ie 430 same as in vs 6 about the One spoken of...thus why will you decide to interprete verse 6 as judge, instead of Elohim? You or the bible scholars that determine what it means...

Frank4YAHWEH:

The problem is, Scripture nowhere teaches "Yahshua is Elohim" [God]." Scripture clearly teaches that Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh. I myself never give reference to FATHER Yahweh or His SON Yahshua by the name/title 'Elohim.' I prefer to refer to FATHER Yahweh in our English langauge as 'Mighty One' and to distinguishing Him from other 'mighty ones' I refer to Him as 'Almighty One.' This is why I had mentioned one of the root words from where 'El, Eloah, Elohim, etc. derived. It originally has the meaning of power, strength, might and can give reference to anything. Ayil as compared to a ram and in like manner another root of the same catigory which is yl is campared to an oak tree in Hebrew. The "Mighty Oak" and a ram signify power.

Ex 7:1
And the Lord said unto Moses, See, I have made thee a god to Pharaoh: and Aaron thy brother shall be thy prophet.
KJV

[size=18pt]If for gods, lohiym was used, not Elohim, yet you and your so called scholars deem it fit to assign JUDGE for Elohim in vs 6, while vs 2, you are comfortable to leave it as ELOHIM....so who do we say is practicing vain deceit here?[/size] SMH

Frank4YAHWEH:

The problem is, Scripture nowhere teaches "Yahshua is Elohim" [God]." Scripture clearly teaches that Yahshua is the Messiah the SON of the living Yahweh. I myself never give reference to FATHER Yahweh or His SON Yahshua by the name/title 'Elohim.' I prefer to refer to FATHER Yahweh in our English langauge as 'Mighty One' and to distinguishing Him from other 'mighty ones' I refer to Him as 'Almighty One.' This is why I had mentioned one of the root words from where 'El, Eloah, Elohim, etc. derived. It originally has the meaning of power, strength, might and can give reference to anything. Ayil as compared to a ram and in like manner another root of the same catigory which is yl is campared to an oak tree in Hebrew. The "Mighty Oak" and a ram signify power.

23 They who go down to the sea in ships, who work in the great waters;
24 these see the works of YAHWEH, and His wonders in the deep.
25 For He speaks, and He raises stormy wind, and makes its waves high;
26 they go up to the heavens; they go down to the depths; their soul is melted because they are in evil;
27 they reel and stagger like a drunken man, and all their wisdom is swallowed up;
28 and they cry to YAHWEH in their distress, and from their straits He brings them out.
29 He settles the storm to a whisper, so that its waves are still;
30 and they are glad, because they are quiet; and He led them to their desired haven.
31 Let them thank YAHWEH for His mercy, and His wonders to the sons of mankind;
32 and exalt Him in the congregation of the people; and praise Him in the seat of the elders.

Matt 8:23-27

22 But Yahshua said to him, Follow Me, and leave the dead to bury their dead.
23 And He entering into the boat, His disciples followed Him.
24 And, behold, a whirlwind occurred in the sea, so that the boat was covered by the waves; but He was sleeping.
25 And coming near, His disciples aroused Him, saying, Master, save us! We are perishing.
26 And He said to them, Why are you afraid, you of little-faith? Then rising up, He rebuked the winds and
the sea. And a great calm occurred.1
27 And the men marveled, saying, What kind of man is this, that even the winds and the sea obey Him?

hisblud: Hmm, any more anti trinitarian who would be kind enough to help frosbel, ijawkid, boomark, frank4yahweh to answer Heb 1.8, one verse is making the above mute, unable to prove that Yashua is NOT Elohim [God]...

hisblud:

You see, your mix up is when you try to use scripture to judge scripture [some scriptural comparison maybe allowed] instead of taking it in context, you would fumble... at times i wonder if reading the bible in english has really helped us or not.... but no problem, thank God for the Hebraic Roots Bible which helps....

I accept Yahshua as Messiah but I also accept Him as Elohim which is where you fail... think again

Frank4YAHWEH:

Hebraic Roots Version?
http://www.lebtahor.com/truth/trimm/plagiarisms/hrvpage.htm

Frank4YAHWEH:

Hebraic Roots Version?
http://www.lebtahor.com/truth/trimm/plagiarisms/hrvpage.htm

Mr anony:
It is interesting to notice how you are deceitfully trying to stir away from the topic at hand by focusing on the tangent of an allegation of plagiarism against the HRB which has absolutely thing to do with whether or not Yahshua is Elohim.

Please stay on course. . . .and if you cannot contest the verses put before you, concede the fact that Jesus is God, repent of your sins and be on your way. Trying to evade the topic does not help you at all.

Frank4YAHWEH:

I have already answered the question. It is not my fault that you are not satisfied with it and that your whole agenda is only to twist Father Yahweh's inspired prophetic word in an attempt to promote your false and demonic doctrines "Jesus IS God!" and "Jesus pre-existed his birth."

Did Yahshua Create Or Pre-exist His Birth?
http://frank4yahweh.tripod.com/ByAndThrough.html

Mr anony:
Lololol.....Hebrews 1:8 clearly refers to Christ as God. Psalm 45 from where it is taken makes it equally clear that He is God. You are the one who claimed that "God" there really meant "judge" and when were shown to be in the wrong, you manufactured another word 'ayil' that wasn't found anywhere in the text. When that also failed, you jumped to another tangent: an allegation of plagiarism against the HRV that had absolutely nothing to do with the text in question.

Despite all your jumping around all over the place, you still want to accuse others of twisting? Please don't make me laugh. Hebrews 1:8 speaks clearly and it says:

But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.


....and yes, Jesus Christ pre-existed His physical birth

hisblud: gbam. I tire oh. We started, they claim it was lifted from psalm 45.6 and that its just judge not Elohim, looking at the strongs concordance, it did not show judge but Elohim yet again. Yet we are accused of twisting when someone claimed that scholars agree its judge yet the hebrew, doesnt agree but show its Elohim. Who is twisting? Pictures were shown of how God and judge is in hebrew which were completely different, yet we are twisting? Hmm i sorry for all this anti trinitarians oh. Frosbel, with all your indept study with brethern, heb 1.8, psalm 45.6 is exposing your study as a vain deceitful study, showing you have erred badly, repent- change your mind.

Mr anony:
Lololol.....Hebrews 1:8 clearly refers to Christ as God. Psalm 45 from where it is taken makes it equally clear that He is God. You are the one who claimed that "God" there really meant "judge" and when were shown to be in the wrong, you manufactured another word 'ayil' that wasn't found anywhere in the text. When that also failed, you jumped to another tangent: an allegation of plagiarism against the HRV that had absolutely nothing to do with the text in question.

Despite all your jumping around all over the place, you still want to accuse others of twisting? Please don't make me laugh. Hebrews 1:8 speaks clearly and it says:

But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.


....and yes, Jesus Christ pre-existed His physical birth

truthislight: Some minor problem people have is a translation problem.

From this translation the sens it made to Devid was very clear, in that we know the source of the strenght of the throne of Devid, if you read previous verses:

Psalm 45:6


6God is your throne to time indefinite, even forever;
The scepter of your kingship is a scepter of uprightness.



and

Hebrews 1:8

starting from 7 through 10:



7Also, with reference to the angels he says: “And he makes his angels spirits, and his public servants a flame of fire.

”8But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.

9You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.”10And: “You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands

hisblud: Hmm, am i to conclude that heb 1.8 and Ps 45.6 is a milk that anti trinitarians cant drink, rather they beat around the bush?

[size=18pt]HEB 1.8[/size] babes food [milk], hard for Frosbel and his anti-trinitarian to drink, yet he is thinking of going for HARD BONES....

hisblud: Hmm, am i to conclude that heb 1.8 and Ps 45.6 is a milk that anti trinitarians cant drink, rather they beat around the bush?

[size=18pt]HEB 1.8[/size] babes food [milk], hard for Frosbel and his anti-trinitarian to drink, yet he is thinking of going for HARD BONES....

truthislight:

My friend, stop this.

If what i have shown you, the right translation is not good enough for for. Fine. But try not to call my name into it hence.
Peace

truthislight:

My friend, stop this.

If what i have shown you, the right translation is not good enough for for. Fine. But try not to call my name into it hence.
Peace

Frank4YAHWEH:

hisblud,

Nowhere in ANY translation of Scripture will you ever find a doctrine of a so-called "Holy Trinity."

As to Hebrews 1:8:

Did Father Yahweh call His Son "God"?
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/734899456/did-father-yahweh-call-his-son-god

Frank4YAHWEH:

Yes, in the translation that you are giving reference to it does, but in other translations he is not referred to as "God." and these are the translations that I am in agreement with:

Targum

Your beauty, O King Messiah, is more stunning than any mortal’s; your lips are endowed with the spirit of prophecy. Due to this the Lord has blessed you forever.

ArtScroll Tenakh Translation

Your throne, O judge, will exist forever and ever; the scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom.

Moffatt Translation

"Your throne shall stand for evermore; for, since your sceptre is a sceptre just, since right you love and evil you abhor, so God, your God, crowns you with bliss above your fellow-kings" (Psalm 45:6-7). This would be Yahweh, Yahshua's Mighty One. Yahshua has not crowned himself. Yahweh will crown him when the time is right (Matthew 25:31; Luke 1:32).

"He says of the Son, God is thy throne for ever and ever, ..." (Hebrews 1:8, Moffatt). Someone else is the Mighty One ["Elohim, God, deity"], not Yahshua. Yahshua's throne is Yahweh ["Elohim, God, deity"].

New English Bible

"Your throne is like God's throne, eternal, your royal sceptre a sceptre of righteousness" (Psalm 45:6). Yahshua is not Yahweh ["Elohim, God, deity"]. Instead, Yahshua's throne is like Yahweh's ["Elohim's, God's"] throne.

"God is thy throne for ever and ever, ..." (Hebrews 1:8, Translator's footnote, N.E.B.).

The Bible in Living English

'... but as to the Son "God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of integrity is the scepter of his reign".'

Revised Standard Version

"Your throne is a throne of God, ...:" (Psalm 45:6, R.S.V. Translator's footnote). The same notation is given in Hebrew 1:8, where this Scripture is quoted. This is true, because Yahshua is (at this time) sitting with the Father in the Father's throne. (Hebrews 1:3). Later, he will sit on his own throne, just as he now sits with the Father in the Father's throne (Revelation 3:21). A footnote in the New Revised Standard Version reads: 'Or, God is your throne ...'. A seperate footnote for the passage "... and the righteous sceptre is the sceptre of your ..." (the footnote in reference to "your" reads: 'other ancient authorities read his'.

American Standard Version

"Thy throne is the throne of God" (Margin: Psalm 45:6, A.S.V.).

Heinz W. Cassirer Version, N.T.

"... when referring to the Son he says, It is God who is your throne for ever and ever; and the sceptre showing forth the uprightness which you bear is the sceptre of God's kingdom. You have love righteousness and hated lawlessness. And so it is that God, who is your God, has has anointed you with the oil of gladness, giving you a greater share of it than any of your fellows.

Good News Bible
"Thy kingdom that God has given you will last forever and ever, ..." (Psalm 45:6). In this case, the throne represents the kingdom.
"God is your kingdom ..." (Hebrews 1:8, Translator's footnote Good News Bible).
Jewish Publication Society, O.T., 1916

Ps 45:6
6 The kingdom that God has given you
will last forever and ever.
You rule over your people with justice;

TEV

TEV Today’s English version

Ps 45:6
The kingdom that God has given you z
will last forever and ever.
You rule over your people with justice;

GNT: Goodnews Translation

Isaac Leeser Translation

"Thy throne, given of God, endureth for ever: the sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore hath God, thy God anointed thee with oil of gladness above thy associates."

Given is OT 5414 naataity and OT 2416 chayaah

truthislight: If there are veriouse translation and the oldest greek manuscripts are works of different translations also.

Why then do you insist on forcing your own version down peoples throat ?

Hypocrite !

Frank4YAHWEH:
Yes, in the translation that you are giving reference to it does, but in other translations he is not referred to as "God." and these are the translations that I am in agreement with:

Targum

Your beauty, O King Messiah, is more stunning than any mortal’s; your lips are endowed with the spirit of prophecy. Due to this the Lord has blessed you forever.

ArtScroll Tenakh Translation

Your throne, O judge, will exist forever and ever; the scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom.

Moffatt Translation

"Your throne shall stand for evermore; for, since your sceptre is a sceptre just, since right you love and evil you abhor, so God, your God, crowns you with bliss above your fellow-kings" (Psalm 45:6-7). This would be Yahweh, Yahshua's Mighty One. Yahshua has not crowned himself. Yahweh will crown him when the time is right (Matthew 25:31; Luke 1:32).

"He says of the Son, God is thy throne for ever and ever, ..." (Hebrews 1:8, Moffatt). Someone else is the Mighty One ["Elohim, God, deity"], not Yahshua. Yahshua's throne is Yahweh ["Elohim, God, deity"].

New English Bible

"Your throne is like God's throne, eternal, your royal sceptre a sceptre of righteousness" (Psalm 45:6). Yahshua is not Yahweh ["Elohim, God, deity"]. Instead, Yahshua's throne is like Yahweh's ["Elohim's, God's"] throne.

"God is thy throne for ever and ever, ..." (Hebrews 1:8, Translator's footnote, N.E.B.).

Good News Bible

"Thy kingdom that God has given you will last forever and ever, ..." (Psalm 45:6). In this case, the throne represents the kingdom.

"God is your kingdom ..." (Hebrews 1:8, Translator's footnote Good News Bible).

Jewish Publication Society, O.T., 1916

"Thy throne given by God is for ever and ever, ..." (Psalm 45:7). Yahshua is not declaired to be Yahweh ["Adonai, Elohim, God, deity"]. Instead, Yahweh will give to Yahshua a throne which will last forever (Daniel 7:11-14; Luke 1:32; Revelation 3:21).

Isaac Leeser Translation

"Thy throne, given of God, endureth for ever: the sceptre of equity is the sceptre of thy kingdom. Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore hath God, thy God anointed thee with oil of gladness above thy associates."

The Bible in Living English

'... but as to the Son "God is your throne forever and ever, and the scepter of integrity is the scepter of his reign".'

Revised Standard Version

"Your throne is a throne of God, ...:" (Psalm 45:6, R.S.V. Translator's footnote). The same notation is given in Hebrew 1:8, where this Scripture is quoted. This is true, because Yahshua is (at this time) sitting with the Father in the Father's throne. (Hebrews 1:3). Later, he will sit on his own throne, just as he now sits with the Father in the Father's throne (Revelation 3:21). A footnote in the New Revised Standard Version reads: 'Or, God is your throne ...'. A seperate footnote for the passage "... and the righteous sceptre is the sceptre of your ..." (the footnote in reference to "your" reads: 'other ancient authorities read his'.

American Standard Version

"Thy throne is the throne of God" (Margin: Psalm 45:6, A.S.V.).

Heinz W. Cassirer Version, N.T.

"... when referring to the Son he says, It is God who is your throne for ever and ever; and the sceptre showing forth the uprightness which you bear is the sceptre of God's kingdom. You have love righteousness and hated lawlessness. And so it is that God, who is your God, has has anointed you with the oil of gladness, giving you a greater share of it than any of your fellows.

Still quoting:

"Then there are these words: You, Lord [meaning Yahweh, Psalm 102:25], laid the foundations of the earth when it first took its rise, and the heavens are the work of thy hands" (Hebrews 1:8-10; cf. Deuteronomy 4:35-39; Isaiah 43:10, 44:24, 45:12-18).

There is no support here for "two Yahwehs, pre-existent, co-creator" Yahshua. Father Yahweh really is the Creator. He did it all ALONE, with no help (Nehemiah 9:6; Psalm 33:6-9).

For a free list of more than 100 Scriptures revealing who is the Creator. It was not Yahshua. Please ask for it at: http://www.halleluyah.org . Also available by E-MAILING THEM you can freely receive some 70+ studies that refute the "pre-existence of Yahshua, Holy Trinity, and two Yahwehs" doctrines.

End Notes:

Weymouth Version N.T. [Translator's footnote, Hebrew 1:8].

Quote:

"8. O God] Psalm 45 is a Royal Marriage song, and this translation involves the direct address of an earthly king by the title 'God.' The obvious difficulty has led to various conjectures:

(1) 'Thy throne is the throne of God' (so R.V. margin in the Psalm).

(2) 'Thy throne is God for ever and ever.'

(3) A corrupt Hebrew text, 'Yahweh' (God), being a mistake for the almost identical word meaning 'shall be,' - 'Thy throne shall be for ever and ever,' This conjecture is widely accepted, but the writer of the Epistle [to the Hebrews], in applying these words of the Psalm to the Son, would not feel the difficulty; 'Thy throne, O God' may stand." (Emphasis added).

Weymouth indicates the word Yahweh (God) does not actually appear in the original text. If this is true, then the word 'O God' should not be in the first clause of Psalm 45:6, but should read as #3 above:

"Thy throne shall be for ever and ever ..." This is the way Moffatt reads in Psalm 45:6, noted above. The thought is, once Yahshua sits on his own throne (as heir to the throne of David), his rulership will endure forever. There is no support here for two Yahwehs, or for the pre-existence of Yahshua. It is a mistake to take an ambiuous verse in the King James Version and make it into a doctrine which opposes the cardinal principle of the Scriptures,

"Hear O Isryl: Yahweh our Mighty One is ONE YAHWEH" (Deuteronomy 6:4).

Gesenius Hebrew Grammer (Kautzsch-Cowley), 1949 reprint says, on page 415 paragraph (b): "In Psalm 45:7 chis-a-cha' El-o-him' (usually explained as thy divine throne). El-o-him' is most probably a later addition [another suggestion is to read chEl-o-him' like God('s throne: compare section 141 d, note]."

Did Father Yahweh call His Son "God"?
http://frank4yahweh.xanga.com/734899456/did-father-yahweh-call-his-son-god

Frank4YAHWEH:

Yes, in the translation that you are giving reference to it does, but in other translations he is not referred to as "God." and these are the translations that I am in agreement with:

Targum

Your beauty, O King Messiah, is more stunning than any mortal’s; your lips are endowed with the spirit of prophecy. Due to this the Lord has blessed you forever.

ArtScroll Tenakh Translation

Your throne, O judge, will exist forever and ever; the scepter of equity is the scepter of your kingdom.

Moffatt Translation

"Your throne shall stand for evermore; for, since your sceptre is a sceptre just, since right you love and evil you abhor, so God, your God, crowns you with bliss above your fellow-kings" (Psalm 45:6-7). This would be Yahweh, Yahshua's Mighty One. Yahshua has not crowned himself. Yahweh will crown him when the time is right (Matthew 25:31; Luke 1:32).

"He says of the Son, God is thy throne for ever and ever, ..." (Hebrews 1:8, Moffatt). Someone else is the Mighty One ["Elohim, God, deity"], not Yahshua. Yahshua's throne is Yahweh ["Elohim, God, deity"].

Frank4YAHWEH: Heinz W. Cassirer Version, N.T.

"... when referring to the Son he says, It is God who is your throne for ever and ever; and the sceptre showing forth the uprightness which you bear is the sceptre of God's kingdom. You have love righteousness and hated lawlessness. And so it is that God, who is your God, has has anointed you with the oil of gladness, giving you a greater share of it than any of your fellows.

Still quoting:

"Then there are these words: You, Lord [meaning Yahweh, Psalm 102:25], laid the foundations of the earth when it first took its rise, and the heavens are the work of thy hands" (Hebrews 1:8-10; cf. Deuteronomy 4:35-39; Isaiah 43:10, 44:24, 45:12-18).

There is no support here for "two Yahwehs, pre-existent, co-creator" Yahshua. Father Yahweh really is the Creator. He did it all ALONE, with no help (Nehemiah 9:6; Psalm 33:6-9).

hisblud: ^^^ that is what i have been saying after rereading his thesis and all na wash.