@jman so God can transport Philip in some way but Jesus has to be spirit to do it?
i wont be talking about what i understand by resurrection. You said Jesus was reincarnated by saying his body was disposed and he become a spirit. You are saying he was created again.

when you plant a seed that seed becomes a tree. Same seed grow not a different seed.
the body becomes spiritual body it means same body that was dead rises. Notice the "it" in that passage.

JMAN05:

of course he has a materialised body. he wasnt a spirit then. Jesus comes in different forms of body as the ocassion requires. that is why they never recognise him at times when he appears.

no he wasnt deceiving them. if he remained in the spirit, his disciples wouldnt have known, he has to materialise.

to reinforce in there mind that he was a spirit, he appeared and disappeared. this he never did when he was alive.

even when he resurrected, no one saw him coming out of the tomb. did he fly? no.

[quoute]5: before he died he walked on water raise the dead turn water to whine so why can he disappear and appear?
6: When Philip teleport, did he need to die for it to happen? Or God transport him in some way.

Jesus never disappeared when he was aive. did he?

his disciples knew him when they saw him, didnt they? but after resurrection. at times they ddnt recognise him. he was changing.

even the cloths he wore were materialised, after all, his cloths has been shared by lot.

philip teleport? pls explain.

and it seems like you dont understand. Jesus resurrection is after he has savrificed his body. how can he come back with the body he gave in our behalf? I mean how can you give a bull for sacrifice and still receive that same bull again? so you dont even know what Jesus did for us?

the body Jesus has now is an immortal one. that agrees with 1cor. 15. the body he has before death is mortal.

7: what do you understand by resurrection?
8: spiritual body is glorified body.
etc

oga ask this question after quoting the biblican reason i gave in my first reply.

Paul said. in the resurrection: it is sown a physical body and it is raised a spiritual one.

and please quote any of my comments you are replying to before you reply. if not i will ignore your comments.

assuming is not helping. He materialise then put holes in his hands then lie he is not a spirit that materialize?
why not take what the bible says
the grave his body was gone instead of you to follow the bible that the body resurrected, you follow logic the bible did not teach that God disposed the body.

he came in one form not different. The bible says they did not recognize him because their eyes were holding by him.

if he remains. Again you are assuming! He said he will raise his body up. Was he lying when he says that?
stop assuming.

he did alot of things he never did before he died. But there was no need for him to do them when he was alive. He fed thousands with how many bread? Where did the other bread comes from? Are you doubting the power of God?
did Philip have to die to appear in another city? No. Just because he disappeared doesn't mean he did not get the glorified body.

no one was at the tomb why is no one saw him coming out relevant to ur argument?

Mary Magdalene found the stone covering the tomb roll away why would a spirit roll it away why not just disappear from the tomb? When they entered they did not find the body.
the 2 angels told her he is not there that he has risen. What rises? Jesus. He is the living amongst the dead. So why argue? Same body that was dead rises.

the angels said they should come in and look that the Jesus has risen.

haibe:

Scroll up and read my posts, i already made the distinction in archaic english and modern day english, the problem with you is that you don't take time to read.

i did and all i saw is your confusion.
and Jesus describing what you say don't exist.

haibe:

Its not what the bible uses in english that matters here, it is the greek word pneuma translated ghost/spirit.

E.g Holy ghost and Holy spirit is the same greek words.

answer the question you ask me. What is the difference between ghost and spirit

you said ghost and spirit are different yet.

haibe:

They are your words not mine, you said the bible only talk about evil spirit which means the disciples thought Jesus was an evil spirit?

it talks about only evil spirit. It doesn't say ghost. Ghost is a German originated word period. If the bible use evil spirit in that verse i would agree if you decide to use ghost.

haibe: They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a
ghost. He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do
doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It
is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh
and bones, as you see I have." (Luke 24:37-39, NIV)

Here are the words of the bible, they thought Jesus was a ghost(dead person appearing to the living), they did not think he was a spirit like angels, evil spirits, etc, that would be inconsistent in the verse.


Ghost is the right word to be translated here since it means a dead person appearing to human beings, the word spirit is not right in this context, angels demons God are spirits not ghosts, the dead appearing are ghosts not spirit.

ghost is not the right translation Stop using it. Give me a Greek word for ghost then i will believe you. Kjv and many bible translate it spirit. Check the Greek for that verse.

haibe:


Okay so the apostles thought Jesus was an evil spirit?

they thought he was a spirit. The bible did not say they thought he was a evil spirit. But i think they were afraid because they did not believe he can come back from the dead bodily even when they saw that he has resurrected dead people before.

when we die our spirit the inner man goes to God whether we are good or bad. When you say the spirit don't exist as a separate entity you are wrong because the spirit exist as a separate entity. Why? Because it goes back to God. If you say it doesn't exist outside the body it means God did not receive the spirit.

read back you will see my words that when we die we don't appear to family and i went on to say if such thing happens it may be the devil. But that doesn't mean spirits don't exist.

haibe:

Do you know the difference between ghosts and a spirit being like angels?

ghost and spirit are same. There is no Hebrew word for ghost. Ghost is a Germanic word that has no link with Greek words. It is use to describe spirit and mainly use to describe spooky spirits. The bible only talks about evil spirit. That verse says they thought he was a spirit. Ghost is not the right translation.

haibe:

Mr man show me where i said spirits don't exist, is it that you don't read or what?

I said spirit beings exist like angels..

The spirit in man can't exist as a separate entity from its body and so doesn't go to any hell after death.

Then i said ghosts do not exist.

now he is claiming again that spirit exist. After he says because they believe in spirit doesn't mean they exist. Why should i show you when you can go back and read your statements

haibe:

@itsfact you can help ravgach in answering this since you both believe in ghosts and contradictorily believe that the dead goes to either heaven or hell "immediately" after death.

Please answer, after answering we can quit the topic of ghost and move back to the essence of this thread.

read all my post. You will understand me. You said spirit don't exist but you also say spirit goes back to God. Then you say the spirit is not what i think it is. The inner man is refer to the spirit.
when humans die they go to God and animals go to the ground.

i am not arguing much here. But i just want you to know the disciples believe spirit exist

@jman
1: Jesus made it clear that he is not a spirit.
2: the mark was in his hand and ribs
3: in revelation the marks was still there.
4: if you say Jesus materialize, it means he deceived the disciples
5: before he died he walked on water raise the dead turn water to whine so why can he disappear and appear?
6: When Philip teleport, did he need to die for it to happen? Or God transport him in some way.
7: what do you understand by resurrection?
8: spiritual body is glorified body.
etc

@haibe you are just confused. I have told you that you cant assume concerning the scripture. You are using assumption to back up your stand for that no one will take you seriously.

haibe:

The problem is that you are being biased.

Have you heard of zombies or have you watched movies about zombies?

As a result of watching the movies about zombies, you can actually describe it even though personally you know they do not exist.

If i say to you now that you are a zombie, your likely response would be why? Because obviously you know you are not behaving like one since you know how they behave from descriptions, it doesn't mean you actually believe in them.

how about if i don't describe zombie and just say zombie don't exist? Its like Jesus telling them father Christmas have goatee instead of saying the truth that Santa Claus don't exist. You are the one who is biased. A lie spreading that ghost exist instead of Jesus to tell them ghost don't exist he went on to describe what ghost is to them.

He said Saul recognized the ghost of Samuel then went on to say the ghost is not a ghost.

ravgach:

Haibe has this contradictory challenge. I hope he will cure himself of this 'spiritual' malady

he says there is ghost then will end his sentence with ghost doesn't exist. If people think ghost exist when it doesn't why will Jesus add fuel to the fire by describing a ghost? This is what he has not answered yet.

haibe:

You are the first christian i will hear from that truely belief the mythology of ghosts is really true, your case is really beyond me.

After the bible clearly stated that the dead are asleep in their grave without thoughts or memory, you still hold to the mythology of ghosts?

About the wizard of endor, if you want to see any dead relative of your today, you can. Just go to the near by spiritualist to help you and they will show you someone that looks just like your dead relative.

Does that mean it is actually that dead relative?? No, they only make a demon take the form of the relative or they make you experience an illusion, nothing else, your dead relative is asleep in the grave awaiting resurrection either to eternal life or eternal damnation.

I can't belief i am teaching a christian this, its sad.

You said Samuel saw a ghost and still say ghost doesn't exist. Read my post again

haibe:

From the belief of people as regards ghost Jesus can always describe it, the way people describe ghosts is enough for him to be able to describe it.

For example from those that belief in zombies and their description of it, i can explain to someone who thinks am a vampire or zombie that am not a zombie because zombies walk this way or they suck the blood of humans. This doesn't mean zombies or vampires actually exist, i am only able to explain this as a result of how those that belief in it describes it

If you are being told a fake story since you were born, for example (india 99 Vs 1 nigeria) you can explain that story to others as a result of people believing the story, that doesn't mean the story is actually true.

Its the same with the idea of ghosts, people do talk about ghosts since i was born, if not that i have been enlightened by the scriptures, i might think this ghosts actually exist when i see a dead relative of mine somewhere like the yorubas say akudaaya, this is just a way of satan to deceive we humans from believing the bible, ghosts don't actually exist.

So you are saying Jesus added to the misinformation people are spreading? Jesus added to the lies people are saying be telling them ghost dont have flesh and bones. Stop assuming too much man.

The questions I ask jman he did not answer any. Did God kill people so they could spirit creatures.

haibe:

I asked this question to make a clearification to you but your answer was ambiguous.

Do you belief ghosts really exist?

Or let me use a biblical example:

The wizard of endor showed saul the ghost of samuel, was it really samuel saul recognized?

Ghost exist... You use Samuel as an example. The disciples thought they saw a ghost if ghost dont exist why is it in the bible of someone who has an encounter like you said Samuel and why does the disciples think Jesus is one. You said it exist as you talk about Samuel then you say because they think doesn't mean it exist. Why did Jesus not say ghost dont exist instead he describe what ghost dont have... If ghost dont exist how does he come about that ghost dont have flesh and bones?

I told U before if anyone see a spirit of their love ones it may be the devil but that doesn't mean that spirit dont exist.

JMAN05:

you must not hear it from me. did you understand what haibe said?

So they thought they saw something that did not exist? I have asked how the hell would they think of he is a spirit if that doesn't exist. He keep insisting they thought so but it did not exist. How can Jesus described what doesn't exist.

JMAN05: @itsfact

hope u are cleared?

cleared of what? Did you explain anything? Let me look back if you did

haibe:

Why do you refuse to answer my questions, instead you just play around it, lol.

So you are saying when we die the spirit stop to exist because it doesn't exist on its own. So what goes to God?

haibe: Let me get your point, are you saying everything we 'think' is true is actually true?

the bible teach about spirit beings... You are always saying ghost it all depends on what you mean.

but don't hide the fact. They were scared they saw a spirit. Why are they scared then? Maybe if spirit appear to you it has to be evil mimicked by the devil. But Jesus gave them a description and said he is not a spirit.

bible teach about spirit beings yes or no? If yes then why do you say spirit don't exist?

haibe:

They were mistaking, simple. They are human just like you who can err at times.

Let's assume you see a relative of your who died a long time ago at the corner of your room, what would be your first thought?? be sincered.

again you are not getting the point. If spirit did not exist why do they think he is spirit talking to them? Why don't they think he is a zombie? Dead body that came to them? They can only mistake him for something they know exist. This is an example of them in their minds know what when someone dies he can appear to them as a spirit. Now no one can come and appear to people when they leave their body and goto God but the devil can in a way take the form of people i think. I just want you to know the disciples believe spirit exist and you are saying spirits don't.

what did Jesus say? He told then spirit don't have flesh n bones... He has given you a description of a spirit something you said don't exist

haibe:

They thought they saw spirits doesn't mean spirits exist.

Saul saw samuel's ghost doesn't mean it was actually samuel.

We have wizard here and there who help to invoke the dead to speak with the living, demons can deceive human beings to think they are their relatives but that doesn't mean they are actually their relatives.

The belief of ghosts have been in place even till today, the disciples lived in an environment where people believed in ghosts and so when they saw someone who was dead face to face, the first thought that would come to them is that this is a ghost according to the belief system, and so Jesus told them he wasn't a ghost like they think, simple.

So ghosts do not actually exist, devil can only make someone feel he is seeing a dead relative of his but he is actually dead in the grave.

if it doesn't exist why do they think?

haibe:

This question is not for me, i never said God will resurrect us as a disembodied spirit or ghost-like creature.

God will resurrect us bodily like he resurrected Jesus but in a glorified, immortal, incorruptible, spiritual body.

thank you. I am saying this because jman and you seem to be going along here.
witnesses insist that Jesus lied when he made it clear that he is not a spirit.

there funny question is if he is not a spirit how did he enter the room? Did he pass through walls? But they forget to ask how he walked on water, resurrected the dead and many more. How did Philip teleport etc.

haibe:

Let me start by asking you:

Do you believe in ghosts? Is it biblical?

if it is not biblical why do the disciples thought they saw a spirit?

now the fact that the bible goes against people who communicate with spirit is no doubt correct. Its a fact that the disciples thought they saw spirit. So yes it is biblical

haibe:

Its the spirit that goes to God when we die, the spirit in man isn't what you think it is, it is not a person, it is what keeps us alive and connects us to God, it is the candle of God in man.

So simply, the spirit is not just breath, neither is it a person that can exist on its own.

so why does the bible refer to the spirit as inner man?

haibe: @itsfact because people believe ghosts exist doesn't mean they really exist.

Jesus telling them he wasn't a spirit or ghost doesn't prove that ghosts exist, it was what they believed and he was only telling them he wasn't who they think he is, a ghost.

You can just answer the OP, then give verses to support your point, just do your part by answering the question.

the disciples know enough to believe Jesus was a spirit and they were afraid. Jesus told them he is not a spirit that it doesn't have flesh and bones.

its like you are dodging truth here. Do you have problem when atheist say the fact that people believe in God doesn't mean he exist? If yes why are you making such statement like because people believe in ghost doesn't mean they exist.

my problem with jman and maybe you. If the spirit and the body is same entity and when we die we stop to exist. So if we come as spirit creature
what spirit is that? Is it us or something entirely different from us.

but if the soul that dies get up with the personality which is the spirit that goes to Abraham side or God comes to the body that was dead then that resurrected body is us. With a little empowerment from the holy spirit it becomes the glorified body Jesus got.

its like say God will kill ever one so they will be created as spirit creatures.

enoch never sees death. He was taken by God. So does he exist or God kills him? Is he in a grave?

@jman if we, our spirit or personality don't go to God when we die, what goes to God then?

as you are a witness and did not believe Jesus body that was dead stood up again in a glorious body. Does that mean
1: he was recreated?
2: if yes that means he is not the Jesus that died for us.

recall you say the spirit is just a breath and it has no personality.

so how do you explain someone different from the one put to death to be the new creature as you guys put it spirit creature to be Jesus.

how do you explain the disciples believing in spirit and the fact that spirit has personality which is inside our body. You know Jesus have to convince them he is not a spirit and it doesn't have flesh and bones.

So Jesus doesn't exist anymore? Jesus was Michael before earth and become Michael again after earth?

JMAN05: Scriptural evidence indicates that the
name Michael applied to God’s Son
before he left heaven to become Jesus
Christ and also after his return. Michael
is the only one said to be “ the
archangel ,” meaning “chief angel,” or
“principal angel.” The term occurs in the
Bible only in the singular. This seems to
imply that there is but one whom God
has designated chief, or head, of the
angelic host. At 1 Thessalonians 4:16 the
voice of the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ
is described as being that of an
archangel , suggesting that he is, in fact,
himself the archangel . This text depicts
him as descending from heaven with “a
commanding call.” It is only logical,
therefore, that the voice expressing this
commanding call be described by a word
that would not diminish or detract from
the great authority that Christ Jesus now
has as King of kings and Lord of lords. ( Mt
28:18; Re 17:14 ) If the designation
“ archangel ” applied, not to Jesus Christ,
but to other angels, then the reference
to “an archangel ’s voice” would not be
appropriate. In that case it would be
describing a voice of lesser authority than
that of the Son of God.
There are also other correspondencies
establishing that Michael is actually the
Son of God. Daniel, after making the first
reference to Michael ( Da 10:13 ), recorded
a prophecy reaching down to “the time of
the end” ( Da 11:40 ) and then stated:
“And during that time Michael will stand
up, the great prince who is standing in
behalf of the sons of [Daniel’s]
people.” ( Da 12:1 ) Michael’s ‘standing up’
was to be associated with “a time of
distress such as has not been made to
occur since there came to be a nation
until that time.” (Da 12:1 ) In Daniel’s
prophecy, ‘standing up’ frequently refers
to the action of a king, either taking up his
royal power or acting effectively in his
capacity as king. (Da
11:2-4, 7, 16b, 20, 21 ) This supports the
conclusion that Michael is Jesus Christ,
since Jesus is Jehovah’s appointed King,
commissioned to destroy all the nations
at Har–Magedon.— Re 11:15; 16:14-16 .
The book of Revelation (12:7, 10, 12 )
specifically mentions Michael in
connection with the establishment of
God’s Kingdom and links this event with
trouble for the earth: “And war broke out
in heaven: Michael and his angels battled
with the dragon, and the dragon and its
angels battled. And I heard a loud voice
in heaven say: ‘Now have come to pass
the salvation and the power and the
kingdom of our God and the authority of
his Christ, because the accuser of our
brothers has been hurled down . . . On
this account be glad, you heavens and you
who reside in them! Woe for the earth
and for the sea.’” Jesus Christ is later
depicted as leading the heavenly armies
in war against the nations of the earth.
( Re 19:11-16 ) This would mean a period
of distress for them, which would logically
be included in the “time of distress” that
is associated with Michael’s standing up.
( Da 12:1 ) Since the Son of God is to fight
the nations, it is only reasonable that he
was the one who with his angels earlier
battled against the superhuman dragon,
Satan the Devil, and his angels.
In his prehuman existence Jesus was
called “ the Word.” (Joh 1:1 ) He also had
the personal name Michael . By retaining
the name Jesus after his resurrection ( Ac
9:5 ), “ the Word” shows that he is
identical with the Son of God on earth.
His resuming his heavenly name Michael
and his title (or name) “ The Word of
God” ( Re 19:13 ) ties him in with his
prehuman existence. The very name
Michael , asking as it does, “Who Is Like
God?” points to the fact that Jehovah
God is without like, or equal, and that
Michael his archangel is his great
Champion or Vindicator.

Bros just one scripture that calls Jesus Michael as one of his many names.
Like Emmanuel etc.

Naira land a tool of the devil. A reply to obadia777

benalvino:

So coming here arguing whether Jesus is Michael the archangel is important for salvation?

How about you believe in Christ and dont bother about Michael, keep the commandment and live a peaceful and good life. Then when Jesus comes you are saved... I dont think Jesus will bother about why dont you find out if I was Michael the archangel... So it is not important for salvation. The bible is the word of God... But some the things in the bible are stories of things that has happened in the past. Many has nothing to do with salvation you just get a glimps of how God destroyed people who go against him... Which is very simplified now... If you dont accept Jesus you are against him..
no need to read about pheroah it is simple now.

But arguing if Michael is Jesus and so on are not important.



And this is my final post maybe in nairaland or religious section.

https://www.nairaland.com/1438828/nairaland-tool-devil