ravgach:

This is a misrepresentation of Jesus Christ! Check out what he said here:

"And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not
have flesh and bones as you see that I have."… Luke 24:38-39

Jesus do know and believe spirits exist and they are personalities that speak, feel, act, etc.

JMAN05: @itsfact

hope u are cleared?

Itsfacts:
cleared of what? Did you explain anything? Let me look back if you did

JMAN05:

you must not hear it from me. did you understand what haibe said?

Itsfacts:

So they thought they saw something that did not exist? I have asked how the hell would they think of he is a spirit if that doesn't exist. He keep insisting they thought so but it did not exist. How can Jesus described what doesn't exist.

Itsfacts: How can Jesus described what doesn't exist.

haibe:

I asked this question to make a clearification to you but your answer was ambiguous.

Do you belief ghosts really exist?

Or let me use a biblical example:

The wizard of endor showed saul the ghost of samuel, was it really samuel saul recognized?

haibe:

From the belief of people as regards ghost Jesus can always describe it, the way people describe ghosts is enough for him to be able to describe it.

For example from those that belief in zombies and their description of it, i can explain to someone who thinks am a vampire or zombie that am not a zombie because zombies walk this way or they suck the blood of humans. This doesn't mean zombies or vampires actually exist, i am only able to explain this as a result of how those that belief in it describes it

If you are being told a fake story since you were born, for example (india 99 Vs 1 nigeria) you can explain that story to others as a result of people believing the story, that doesn't mean the story is actually true.

Its the same with the idea of ghosts, people do talk about ghosts since i was born, if not that i have been enlightened by the scriptures, i might think this ghosts actually exist when i see a dead relative of mine somewhere like the yorubas say akudaaya, this is just a way of satan to deceive we humans from believing the bible, ghosts don't actually exist.

Itsfacts:

Ghost exist... You use Samuel as an example. The disciples thought they saw a ghost if ghost dont exist why is it in the bible of someone who has an encounter like you said Samuel and why does the disciples think Jesus is one. You said it exist as you talk about Samuel then you say because they think doesn't mean it exist. Why did Jesus not say ghost dont exist instead he describe what ghost dont have... If ghost dont exist how does he come about that ghost dont have flesh and bones?

Itsfacts:

So you are saying Jesus added to the misinformation people are spreading? Jesus added to the lies people are saying be telling them ghost dont have flesh and bones. Stop assuming too much man.

haibe:

You are the first christian i will hear from that truely belief the mythology of ghosts is really true, your case is really beyond me.

After the bible clearly stated that the dead are asleep in their grave without thoughts or memory, you still hold to the mythology of ghosts?

About the wizard of endor, if you want to see any dead relative of your today, you can. Just go to the near by spiritualist to help you and they will show you someone that looks just like your dead relative.

Does that mean it is actually that dead relative?? No, they only make a demon take the form of the relative or they make you experience an illusion, nothing else, your dead relative is asleep in the grave awaiting resurrection either to eternal life or eternal damnation.

I can't belief i am teaching a christian this, its sad.

Itsfacts:
You said Samuel saw a ghost and still say ghost doesn't exist. Read my post again

Itsfacts:

Ghost exist... You use Samuel as an example. The disciples thought they saw a ghost if ghost dont exist why is it in the bible

haibe:

Let me go by your logic that those people whose body arosed in matt 27:52 "went to heaven" indeed.

Now my question is this:



QUESTION

1. If they resurrected and went to heaven, does that not mean they are not disembodied spirits in heaven but real people with
bodies?

ANSWER

No sir. They will not be in heaven with their real bodies. Those peopled that resurrected in Matthew 27:52 are in heaven by their spirits. What happened to them was exactly what happened to Elijah and Enoch. The difference is that while Enoch and Elijah then went to Paradise, they went to heaven (Paradise now relocated to heaven). They were translated. Nobody will be able to say where their bodies are until the day of resurrection. Their resurrection is a foretaste of the resurrection proper just as the rapture of Elijah and Enoch is a foretaste of the rapture of the Church. The people John saw in Revelation 6:9-11 were not their with their bodies but by their spirits.


QUESTION

2. Since this people are in heaven now after they resurrected(according to you), why would they need to ressurect again at the second coming
of Christ? Talk about resurrecting twice..lol, or will they be exempted from resurrection at the second coming? Lol, then you would be
contradicting Christ since he said "all".

ANSWER

If you understand certain events and patterns of God's program, you will find easy to understand some of these things. When people die in the Old Testament and before the resurrection of Jesus Christ, they go to paradise or Abraham's Bossom. Paradise is simply the Garden of Eden or Garden of God. That Garden of Eden that was lost at the fall of man will eventually be restored at the end of all things. "Behold I make all things new..." Now that Garden was replicated spiritually and made invisible on earth here from the Old Testament time until the resurrection of Christ Luke 23:43 "Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise.."; Luke 16:23 "...and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom..." and housed all believers from Abel to the Thief on the Cross. Please remember John 3:13 "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man."

Now what you are calling 'resurrection' is actually RISING FROM THE DEAD which is not different from what happened when Jesus came to the door of the Tomb of Lazarus and said: "Lazarus come forth..." There is no difference. The scripture recorded in Matthew 27:52 "and many bodies of the saints which slept AROSE, .. This is not the resurrection we are hoping for. This is why they will still partake in the resurrection because they have not been resurrected.


QUESTION

3. If after those saints body arosed they "went to heaven", why then did peter say david's body was still with them after christ's resurrection ?
(acts 2:9)

ANSWER

Ok understand it this way, when those saints where translated, (remember that flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom) their bodies went back to the ground because they put off their natural bodies. So if Peter tells the Jews that David's body was still in the grave he is very correct.


QUESTION

*According to you, at resurrection, the spirit who has been living many years in heaven enters its body and resurrects*.

Don't you think your kind of doctrine of resurrection is illogical since the saints in heaven have already resurrected like Christ and are in heaven? Why put on their bodies at resurrection again? Does this make sense?

ANSWER

It is not illogical at all! The mistake you are making is to think that they have already been resurrected. They have not been resurrected at all. They only rose from the dead and were translated just the same way Enoch and Elijah were (to put it in an elementary way, they were raised from the grave 'resurrected' and their spirits taken to heaven while their bodies evaporated and went back to the ground). The difference here is, instead going to paradise (invisible here on earth) which was where they went to before the resurrection of Christ, they went to heaven (paradise which is now in heaven 2 Corinthians 12:2; Revelation 2:7), so they go to heaven. They will still be resurrected on the last day.

On the resurrection morning, the various spirit will leave their abode in heaven (paradise) with the power of God at the sound of the trumpet by the archangel, will quicken the unconscious, decayed, corrupted, 'sleeping' bodies in the grave and they will wake up changed, incorruptible, immortal (1 Corinthians 15:51; Romans 8:11) and go up to heaven. This time, it will include all living and dead saints and they will be there not in their spirit this time, but in their angelic bodies Mark 12:25. The ultimate plan of God is not to leave the believers in heaven, they will come back and inherit the earth - Paradise, the Eden of God, the New Jerusalem (New Heaven and New Earth) Jude 14, 15. You will say Paradise. I say yes. Paradise will be restored and will be the final abode of man. Revelation 21, 22


You said since then, everyone who died went to heaven. Now if those people resurrected bodily and "went to heaven", why won't everyone who die also resurrect first like them before going to heaven like them? why then are you propounding the idea of disembodied spirits going to heaven after death? when according to you those saints body arosed before going to heaven.

I think this should make it clear to you that no one except Jesus is in heaven now and that your doctrine of disembodied spirits going to heaven is pure heresy.

Like i said the other time, what you need is thorough bible study.

haibe:

I have read your post again, you said ghost exist and i am telling you they do not exist.

Itsfacts:
You said Samuel saw a ghost and still say ghost doesn't exist. Read my post again

ravgach:

You got it all wrong and your questions too followed your wrong assumptions. I hope you have some of these things cleared up a bit?

haibe:

We are talking about the spirit in man now, don't deviate our attention, the spirit in man is not a person.

Jesus was telling them he was not a ghost, like the egyptian mythology which some christians are bringing to the christian faith, he was not a ghost, he resurrected, he is alive.

ravgach:

Haibe has this contradictory challenge. I hope he will cure himself of this 'spiritual' malady

Itsfacts:
he says there is ghost then will end his sentence with ghost doesn't exist. If people think ghost exist when it doesn't why will Jesus add fuel to the fire by describing a ghost? This is what he has not answered yet.

Itsfacts: He said Saul recognized the ghost of Samuel then went on to say the ghost is not a ghost.

Itsfacts:
he says there is ghost then will end his sentence with ghost doesn't exist. If people think ghost exist when it doesn't why will Jesus add fuel to the fire by describing a ghost? This is what he has not answered yet.

haibe:

This is what happens when people do not take time to read. Saul wanted to have a conversation with samuel and then went ahead to meet the wizard even when God has warned against this, the wizard then showed saul what he would call the ghost of samuel, when infact it wasn't samuel.

Please take time to read before commenting, ⌣ok?

haibe:

The problem is that you are being biased.

Have you heard of zombies or have you watched movies about zombies?

As a result of watching the movies about zombies, you can actually describe it even though personally you know they do not exist.

If i say to you now that you are a zombie, your likely response would be why? Because obviously you know you are not behaving like one since you know how they behave from descriptions, it doesn't mean you actually believe in them.

ravgach:

Whose words should we take, yours or Christ's? Of course not yours!

Itsfacts:

how about if i don't describe zombie and just say zombie don't exist? Its like Jesus telling them father Christmas have goatee instead of saying the truth that Santa Claus don't exist. You are the one who is biased. A lie spreading that ghost exist instead of Jesus to tell them ghost don't exist he went on to describe what ghost is to them.

Itsfacts:

how about if i don't describe zombie and just say zombie don't exist? Its like Jesus telling them father Christmas have goatee instead of saying the truth that Santa Claus don't exist. You are the one who is biased. A lie spreading that ghost exist instead of Jesus to tell them ghost don't exist he went on to describe what ghost is to them.

haibe:

Please when did i say ghosts exist, the first ever sentence i made about ghosts is that they don't exist but spiritualists make people see their dead relatives as ghosts.

Φƙα̲̅ψ if you mis-inderstood me, ghosts do not exist, you can show me an existence of the dead coming to life as ghosts in the bible like your egyptian mythology.