haibe:

@itsfact answer this first

and you have not been reading my post. I have mentioned several times that when someone die and appears to you it is more likely the devil.

haibe now i know you don't read what i post.

you use Samuel as an example. Whether you call it spirit or ghost it is your business but the event happened that is why the disciples were afraid. Jesus did not say ghost don't exist he described it.

haibe:

You are still confusing the word ghost with spirit after all the explanation i gave about the words? Later if i say you are dull now it will look like am saying something bad, lol.

look if you say Saul saw a ghost then why saying he didn't see a ghost?

i said before when someone dies and appears to you it is probably the devil. What appears to you? A ghost depending on what you mean by ghost. The bible calls it unclean spirit. You are using modern English to deceive your self. The bible talks about people who contact the dead through spirit medium and condemn it. So yes what the disciples was afraid of is valid. They thought they are seeing a ghost/spirit and Jesus describe what ghost look like.

Itsfacts:

and you have not been reading my post. I have mentioned several times that when someone die and appears to you it is more likely the devil.

If it is more likely the devil, does it still mean it is the ghost of that relative of yours?

Itsfacts:

look if you say Saul saw a ghost then why saying he didn't see a ghost?

i said before when someone dies and appears to you it is probably the devil. What appears to you? A ghost depending on what you mean by ghost. The bible calls it unclean spirit. You are using modern English to deceive your self. The bible talks about people who contact the dead through spirit medium and condemn it. So yes what the disciples was afraid of is valid. They thought they are seeing a ghost/spirit and Jesus describe what ghost look like.

Φƙα̲̅ψ.

1) What is a ghost?

2) What is a spirit?

"...And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the water"(Gen 1:2)

3) Can we say: and the ghost of God moved upon the face of the waters?

"And declared to be the son of God according to the spirit of holiness" (Romans 1:4)

4) Can we say Jesus was declared the Son of God according to the ghost of holiness?

Itsfacts:

look if you say Saul saw a ghost then why saying he didn't see a ghost?
.

This is to show how unintelligent you are:

If a magician transforms to you, does that mean it is the real you?

haibe:

Φƙα̲̅ψ.

1) What is a ghost?

2) What is a spirit?

"...And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the water"(Gen 1:2)

3) Can we say: and the ghost of God moved upon the face of the waters?

"And declared to be the son of God according to the spirit of holiness" (Romans 1:4)

4) Can we say Jesus was declared the Son of God according to the ghost of holiness?

you mumu o. I told you that ghost is same as spirit and told you holy don't go with demons. Why you say holy ghost exist and deny ghost don't exist baffles me. The real word is spirit stop using ghost which is a Germanic word formed centuries after the bible is completed.

if a magician transform for me i will know magic exist if you ask me to describe magic i will.

if a ghost appear i will know ghost are real that is why the disciples were scared and Jesus describe it. If u see an appear of a dead person whether it is that person or not you say you see a ghost so how can u say a ghost don't exist when you saw it?

Ghost don't exist but you agree holy ghost exist.

Itsfacts: Ghost don't exist but you agree holy ghost exist.

Holy ghost is archaic, the right word to use presently is Holy spirit.

The word ghost used in early english is different from ghost today.

ghosts don't exist, the holy spirit is not a ghost, calling the holy spirit ghost in modern english is blasphemy.

Itsfacts:

if a magician transform for me i will know magic exist if you ask me to describe magic i will.

Lol, so if a magician appears to you, the magician becomes the real you?

I have met someone on nairaland today, lol.

So tell me, what happens to you when the magician transforms to you, do you then cease to exist?

Itsfacts:

you mumu o. I told you that ghost is same as spirit and told you holy don't go with demons.

God is a spirit" (John 4:24)

1) Can i say God is a ghost? Since they are thesame to you.

Itsfacts:
The real word is spirit stop using ghost which is a Germanic word formed centuries after the bible is completed.

You are an ignorant fellow.

The word spirit is also a latin word formed years after the greek bible was compiled.

If the word ghosts was formed century after the kjv, how come its still in the kjv bible?

@itsfact, in order not to derail this thread, i will open a new thread as regards the existence of ghosts, you and ravgach will be invited.

@itsfact and @ravgach, you can let us continue our discussion on the existence of ghosts in the thread below, let's not derail this beautiful thread:

https://www.nairaland.com/1466539/ghosts-really-exist-according-bible

[quote author=Itsfacts]

.assuming is not helping. He materialise then put holes in his hands then lie he is not a spirit that materialize?
why not take what the bible says
the grave his body was gone instead of you to follow the bible that the body resurrected, you follow logic the bible did not teach that God disposed the body.

1. what did you mean by the bolded.

2. Psalm 16:10 KJV
For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

what did you understand by that verse?

If Jesus took his fleshly body, he never gave it in sacrifice, true or false?

3. Jesus wasnt a spirit but that body was materialised. what is your problem.

1 Corinthians 15:44-45 KJV
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. [45] And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

what did you understand by that verse?

.he came in one form not different. The bible says they did not recognize him because their eyes were holding by him.

1. Jesus appeared in another form. Check mark 16:12

Mark 16:12 KJV
After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

Luke 24:29-31 KJV
"But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. [30] And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it , and brake, and gave to them. [31] And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight."

Did you see that in this ocassion they didnt recognize him? Showing that he came in a different body here. Just to show that he is not just a flesh. After all why wouldnt they identify somebody who left for just 3days.

2. when lazarus resurrected who didnt recognise him? cant you know who i am if i left you for 3 days?

if he remains. Again you are assuming! He said he will raise his body up. Was he lying when he says that?
stop assuming.

what is wrong with assumption in that context?

he did alot of things he never did before he died. But there was no need for him to do them when he was alive. He fed thousands with how many bread? Where did the other bread comes from? Are you doubting the power of God?
did Philip have to die to appear in another city? No. Just because he disappeared doesn't mean he did not get the glorified body.

Which glorified body are you talking about?

Did philip die? Did he go to heaven or saw thru vision?

Luke 24:31 KJV
And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.

Why did he vanish? Was he afraid? Of course his disciples knew he was the messiah, they knew he can perform wonderful signs, what is the point of disappearing?

He wanted to reinforce in there mind that he wasnt just a human, but a materialised one just to show he has resurrected.

Look at what Paul said:

1 Corinthians 15:45 KJV
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

no one was at the tomb why is no one saw him coming out relevant to ur argument?

Mary Magdalene found the stone covering the tomb roll away why would a spirit roll it away why not just disappear from the tomb? When they entered they did not find the body.
the 2 angels told her he is not there that he has risen. What rises? Jesus. He is the living amongst the dead. So why argue? Same body that was dead rises.

Sure no body was there?

Matthew 28:2-4 KJV
"And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it. [3] His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow: [4] And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men ."

Where there people there?

itsfact. pls learn to separate the quotes and respond to my comment one by one. if you dont know how to do it, pls tell me let me teach you before you reapond to my comment. it makes for easy discussion.

JMAN05: itsfact. pls learn to separate the quotes and respond to my comment one by one. if you dont know how to do it, pls tell me let me teach you before you reapond to my comment. it makes for easy discussion.

Your double speak is becoming serious here. In one hand you categorically said Jesus resurrected a spirit in another you said he is not a spirit but materialized. Materialization is a terminology used by most 'occult churches'. Jesus did not 'materialize' he resurrected with an identifiable but glorious body.

The scripture did not tell us why in the other two appearances why Mary and the other disciples did not recognize Jesus. But if we are honest and go by the account in Luke 24, "their eyes were kept from recognizing him". The same account recorded in Mark where you are getting confused is not different from this. "After that he appeared in another form unto two of them..." This simply means they saw him differently meaning they could not recognize Him. By some divine operations, they were prevented from recognizing him. He was the same! There have been other occasions where the disciples were prevented from understanding the full import of Jesus' communication.

Being a quickening spirit does not in any way mean he is a spirit. It simply means, He is the harbinger of the new life, a life-giver or the originator of spiritual or eternal life. The spirit in the sense it was used, means it is a spiritual experience or event.

ravgach:

Your double speak is becoming serious here. In one hand you categorically said Jesus resurrected a spirit in another you said he is not a spirit but materialized. Materialization is a terminology used by most 'occult churches'. Jesus did not 'materialize' he resurrected with an identifiable but glorious body.

The scripture did not tell us why in the other two appearances why Mary and the other disciples did not recognize Jesus. But if we are honest and go by the account in Luke 24, "their eyes were kept from recognizing him". The same account recorded in Mark where you are getting confused is not different from this. "After that he appeared in another form unto two of them..." This simply means they saw him differently meaning they could not recognize Him. By some divine operations, they were prevented from recognizing him. He was the same! There have been other occasions where the disciples were prevented from understanding the full import of Jesus' communication.

Being a quickening spirit does not in any way mean he is a spirit. It simply means, He is the harbinger of the new life, a life-giver or the originator of spiritual or eternal life. The spirit in the sense it was used, means it is a spiritual experience or event.

Did Jesus resurrect in a physical body or spiritual body?

ravgach:
Materialization is a terminology used by most 'occult churches'. Jesus did not 'materialize' he resurrected with an identifiable but glorious body.
.

Materialization is not any occultic word, it simply means the conversion of something into physical form, angels do materialize when they want to deliver a message to we humans, and they do this by converting into physical form first, so why are are you ascribing materialization to occult churches?

Luke 1:11
11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him,
standing at the right side of the altar of
incense. 12 When Zechariah SAW HIM, he was
startled and was gripped with fear.

How did zechariah see angel gabriel if he did not materialize, do you think man can see the angels in their spiritual body without them taking on physical flesh? No.

ravgach:

Your double speak is becoming serious here. In one hand you categorically said Jesus resurrected a spirit in another you said he is not a spirit but materialized. Materialization is a terminology used by most 'occult churches'. Jesus did not 'materialize' he resurrected with an identifiable but glorious body.

The scripture did not tell us why in the other two appearances why Mary and the other disciples did not recognize Jesus. But if we are honest and go by the account in Luke 24, "their eyes were kept from recognizing him". The same account recorded in Mark where you are getting confused is not different from this. "After that he appeared in another form unto two of them..." This simply means they saw him differently meaning they could not recognize Him. By some divine operations, they were prevented from recognizing him. He was the same! There have been other occasions where the disciples were prevented from understanding the full import of Jesus' communication.

Being a quickening spirit does not in any way mean he is a spirit. It simply means, He is the harbinger of the new life, a life-giver or the originator of spiritual or eternal life. The spirit in the sense it was used, means it is a spiritual experience or event.

if you want to discuss this, form another thread. in this thread, you and i have a discussion, until you respond to that, i will conclude you are not serious.

haibe:

Did Jesus resurrect in a physical body or spiritual body?

He resurrected with in a spiritual body. Spiritual body does not mean he resurrected a spirit. A spiritual body means the same body now glorified. It was a recognizable body having the same features. You can see Him showing Thomas his pierced hands and sides and even asking him to put his hands in it. You also noticed that he had dinner with the disciples. He resurrected in the same body that was crucified. The difference is that, that body now has enhanced spiritual abilities, capabilities or features. Just the same body! So I can perfectly say that Jesus resurrected with his physical body having flesh and blood and bones but having more spiritual capabilities. "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have," (Luke 24:38-39).

haibe:

Materialization is not any occultic word, it simply means the conversion of something into physical form, angels do materialize when they want to deliver a message to we humans, and they do this by converting into physical form first, so why are are you ascribing materialization to occult churches?

Luke 1:11
11 Then an angel of the Lord appeared to him,
standing at the right side of the altar of
incense. 12 When Zechariah SAW HIM, he was
startled and was gripped with fear.

How did zechariah see angel gabriel if he did not materialize, do you think man can see the angels in their spiritual body without them taking on physical flesh? No.

How does 'materialization' come up here? is this the first time an angel will be appearing and speaking with someone. Did Mary not meet and speak with an angel on the morning Jesus resurrected? This is a terminology used by the occult. It is highly unscriptural.

haibe: @itsfact and @ravgach, you can let us continue our discussion on the existence of ghosts in the thread below, let's not derail this beautiful thread:

https://www.nairaland.com/1466539/ghosts-really-exist-according-bible

There is no need dissipating valuable time on a very simple issue. Let us look at that story again: Mark 6:48-50

And he saw that they were making headway painfully, for the wind was against them. And about the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. He meant to pass by them, but when they saw him walking on the sea they thought it was a ghost, and cried out, for they all saw him and were terrified. But immediately he spoke to them and said, “Take heart; it is I. Do not be afraid.”

They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

This place simply means that Jesus' disciples actually thought he was a demon or an evil spirit. The action of Jesus was a confidence building mechanism used to assure them he is the Christ. The disciples thought it could only be a demon that can walk on water. This terrified them but Jesus calmed them down

The issue now is: I personally think Jesus was telling them He was not an evil spirit or a demon. He believes evil spirits exist just the same way the Holy Spirit exist. But whatever you think Jesus was telling them He was not, then Jesus believes in it. What I mean is: If you think Jesus was telling them that ghost here means the spirit of the dead, then Jesus believes in it because he said He is not that.

The Bible does not teach that the spirit of the dead wonders about. When a man dies, his spirit goes back to God. He is either kept in Paradise in Heaven or in Hell waiting for resurrection and judgment. The spirit of the dead does not wonder about as you are subtly telling us.

ravgach:

He resurrected with in a spiritual body. Spiritual body does not mean he resurrected a spirit. A spiritual body means the same body now glorified. It was a recognizable body having the same features

yes spiritual body means he ressurected a spirit being, only spirit beings can have a spiritual body.

A spiritual body does not mean the same body now glorified, it means the physical body was changed to spiritual body or heavenly body.

If we were to go by your logic, it means Jesus went to heaven with a physical body with flesh and blood but the bible says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, so you are very wrong bro.

ravgach:

You can see Him showing Thomas his pierced hands and sides and even asking him to put his hands in it. You also noticed that he had dinner with the disciples. He resurrected in the same body that was crucified. The difference is that, that body now has enhanced spiritual abilities, capabilities or features. Just the same body! So I can perfectly say that Jesus resurrected with his physical body having flesh and blood and bones but having more spiritual capabilities. "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have," (Luke 24:38-39).

your argument is not sound here: because Jesus dinned with his disciples doesn't mean he ressurected a physical being, it means he materialised into a physical body.

If you say Jesus was in a ressurected in a physical body because he eat with his disciples then you are also saying God is a physical being for eating with abraham.

King James Version (KJV)
1And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, AND THEY DID EAT.

So does that mean the Lord is a physical being because he eat with abraham?? No, he did materialise in order to do this.

God is a spirit (John 4:24)

So your argument here that Jesus was a physical being because he dinned and interacted with his disciples is very illogical.

..

Pleasant stream: Then your real self your soul will go to sleep a situation of unconsciousness not hell or heaven rather you are sleeping. I .

please can u explain whr exactly u r when sleeping, what is d name of the place, when was it formed, who created d place.

ravgach:

How does 'materialization' come up here? is this the first time an angel will be appearing and speaking with someone. Did Mary not meet and speak with an angel on the morning Jesus resurrected? This is a terminology used by the occult. It is highly unscriptural.

Now tell me, if materialization is unscriptural, how did an immaterial God eat with abraham?

How did jacob wrestle with the lord?

ravgach:

There is no need dissipating valuable time on a very simple issue. Let us look at that story again: Mark 6:48-50

And he saw that they were making headway painfully, for the wind was against them. And about the fourth watch of the night he came to them, walking on the sea. He meant to pass by them, but when they saw him walking on the sea they thought it was a ghost, and cried out, for they all saw him and were terrified. But immediately he spoke to them and said, “Take heart; it is I. Do not be afraid.”

They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”

This place simply means that Jesus' disciples actually thought he was a demon or an evil spirit. The action of Jesus was a confidence building mechanism used to assure them he is the Christ. The disciples thought it could only be a demon that can walk on water. This terrified them but Jesus calmed them down

The issue now is: I personally think Jesus was telling them He was not an evil spirit or a demon. He believes evil spirits exist just the same way the Holy Spirit exist. But whatever you think Jesus was telling them He was not, then Jesus believes in it. What I mean is: If you think Jesus was telling them that ghost here means the spirit of the dead, then Jesus believes in it because he said He is not that.

your assertion here is very illogical too..

The bible usually mention the tern unclean spirit, evil spirit or devils when referring to a demon, if the apostles thought Jesus was a demon, the bible would have used either of the terms unclean spirit, evil spirit or devils as usual, your assumption that ghost in this verse is demon is pathetic.

ghosts are different from evil spirit:

pronunciation(IPA): /ɡəʊst/(IPA): /ɡoʊst/

noun (plural ghost)The disembodied soul; the soul or spirit of a deceased person; a spirit appearing after death; an apparition; a specter.

The mighty ghosts of our great Harries rose. — Shakespeare.I thought that I had died in sleep/And was a blessed ghost.— Coleridge

So a ghost relates to a dead person's apparition, evil spirits are not dead.

The disciples thought they were seeing Jesus ghost since he had died, they never knew he ressurected and is alive again.

haibe:

Now tell me, if materialization is unscriptural, how did an immaterial God eat with abraham?

How did joshua wrestle with the lord?

Actually if u mean JACOB. Jacob didnt wrestle with God. No one has seen God. John 1:18, John 6:46, Exo 33:20, I Tim 6:15-16
Genesis 32:22-32
1. God wouldnt hav asked for Jacobs name (All knowing)
2. Wrestle with God in ds verse means heavenly being (angel). Actually it was d angel of the Lord (angel of His Presence) dt was in more active in d OT. Becos he carried God Presence (representative), he can use d word God, Ur Lord etc. Jacob was repeating wat d angel said "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared"

An encounter wit angel of His Presence in OT is recorded as seeing God. Moses recieved d law thru him (Acts 7:53, Hebrews 2:2, Galatians 3:19), I believe Abraham saw/entertained him (Heb 13:2).

An encouter wit God doesnt mean u ve seen God.
Wit a careful study of NT especially Paul's writings, we can safely interprete d scripture witout contradictions.

ajayikayod:

Actually if u mean JACOB. Jacob didnt wrestle with God. No one has seen God. John 1:18, John 6:46, Exo 33:20, I Tim 6:15-16
Genesis 32:22-32
1. God wouldnt hav asked for Jacobs name (All knowing)
2. Wrestle with God in ds verse means heavenly being (angel). Actually it was d angel of the Lord (angel of His Presence) dt was in more active in d OT. Becos he carried God Presence (representative), he can use d word God, Ur Lord etc. Jacob was repeating wat d angel said "It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared"

An encounter wit angel of His Presence in OT is recorded as seeing God. Moses recieved d law thru him (Acts 7:53, Hebrews 2:2, Galatians 3:19), I believe Abraham saw/entertained him (Heb 13:2).

An encouter wit God doesnt mean u ve seen God.
Wit a careful study of NT especially Paul's writings, we can safely interprete d scripture witout contradictions.

Thanks for correcting, I meant jacob there not Joshua.

You are right, some scriptures actually use the angel of the lord, whether God or angel they are both spirit beings and so the focal point here is how will someone immaterial eat if he didn't materialise.

That is my argument against ravgach point.

because Jesus eat does not necessarily mean he ressurected in a physical body, he was only able to eat because he materialised into a physical form.

If you say Jesus ressurected as a physical being because he eat, it means you are also saying 'The Lord' who eat with Abraham was also a physical being.


Neither 'The angel of the Lord' or Jesus were physical beings in those verses, they were spiritual beings who materialised in order to perform those actions.

haibe:

yes spiritual body means he ressurected a spirit being, only spirit beings can have a spiritual body.

A spiritual body does not mean the same body now glorified, it means the physical body was changed to spiritual body or heavenly body.

If we were to go by your logic, it means Jesus went to heaven with a physical body with flesh and blood but the bible says flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, so you are very wrong bro.

Is this the best logic you can assemble? lol. There is no correlation at all! I think you should always ask questions when in doubt instead of jumping into laughable conclusions.

haibe:

your argument is not sound here: because Jesus dinned with his disciples doesn't mean he ressurected a physical being, it means he materialised into a physical body.

If you say Jesus was in a ressurected in a physical body because he eat with his disciples then you are also saying God is a physical being for eating with abraham.

King James Version (KJV)
1And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3And said, My LORD, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
4Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:
5And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.
6And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.
7And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.
8And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, AND THEY DID EAT.

So does that mean the Lord is a physical being because he eat with abraham?? No, he did materialise in order to do this.

God is a spirit (John 4:24)

So your argument here that Jesus was a physical being because he dinned and interacted with his disciples is very illogical.

If I were you, I will note the number 3 as it is stated in the account you showed as your proof that God 'ate'. ha ha ha... you are a very funny guy. You are wasting your talent, you should be a comedian. The visitors were 3 and the morsel of bread was 3. I think you should make intelligent conclusions.