Itsfacts:
recall you say the spirit is just a breath and it has no personality.

Itsfacts: if we, our spirit or personality don't go to God when we die, what goes to God then?

haibe: @itsfact because people believe ghosts exist doesn't mean they really exist.

Jesus telling them he wasn't a spirit or ghost doesn't prove that ghosts exist, it was what they believed and he was only telling them he wasn't who they think he is, a ghost.

You can just answer the OP, then give verses to support your point, just do your part by answering the question.

Itsfacts:

the disciples know enough to believe Jesus was a spirit and they were afraid. Jesus told them he is not a spirit that it doesn't have flesh and bones.

its like you are dodging truth here. Do you have problem when atheist say the fact that people believe in God doesn't mean he exist? If yes why are you making such statement like because people believe in ghost doesn't mean they exist.

haibe:

Its the spirit that goes to God when we die, the spirit in man isn't what you think it is, it is not a person, it is what keeps us alive and connects us to God, it is the candle of God in man.

So simply, the spirit is not just breath, neither is it a person that can exist on its own.

Itsfacts:

my problem with jman and maybe you. If the spirit and the body is same entity and when we die we stop to exist. So if we come as spirit creature
what spirit is that? Is it us or something entirely different from us.

but if the soul that dies get up with the personality which is the spirit that goes to Abraham side or God comes to the body that was dead then that resurrected body is us. With a little empowerment from the holy spirit it becomes the glorified body Jesus got.

its like say God will kill ever one so they will be created as spirit creatures.

haibe:

Let me start by asking you:

Do you believe in ghosts? Is it biblical?

Itsfacts:

so why does the bible refer to the spirit as inner man?

haibe:

This question is not for me, i never said God will resurrect us as a disembodied spirit or ghost-like creature.

God will resurrect us bodily like he resurrected Jesus but in a glorified, immortal, incorruptible, spiritual body.

Itsfacts:

if it is not biblical why do the disciples thought they saw a spirit?

now the fact that the bible goes against people who communicate with spirit is no doubt correct. Its a fact that the disciples thought they saw spirit. So yes it is biblical

haibe:

They thought they saw spirits doesn't mean spirits exist.

Saul saw samuel's ghost doesn't mean it was actually samuel.

We have wizard here and there who help to invoke the dead to speak with the living, demons can deceive human beings to think they are their relatives but that doesn't mean they are actually their relatives.

The belief of ghosts have been in place even till today, the disciples lived in an environment where people believed in ghosts and so when they saw someone who was dead face to face, the first thought that would come to them is that this is a ghost according to the belief system, and so Jesus told them he wasn't a ghost like they think, simple.

So ghosts do not actually exist, devil can only make someone feel he is seeing a dead relative of his but he is actually dead in the grave.

Itsfacts:

thank you. I am saying this because jman and you seem to be going along here.
witnesses insist that Jesus lied when he made it clear that he is not a spirit.

there funny question is if he is not a spirit how did he enter the room? Did he pass through walls? But they forget to ask how he walked on water, resurrected the dead and many more. How did Philip teleport etc.

Itsfacts:

if it doesn't exist why do they think?

haibe:

They were mistaking, simple. They are human just like you who can err at times.

Let's assume you see a relative of your who died a long time ago at the corner of your room, what would be your first thought?? be sincered.

haibe: Let me get your point, are you saying everything we 'think' is true is actually true?

Itsfacts:
the bible teach about spirit beings... You are always saying ghost it all depends on what you mean.

but don't hide the fact. They were scared they saw a spirit. Why are they scared then? Maybe if spirit appear to you it has to be evil mimicked by the devil. But Jesus gave them a description and said he is not a spirit.

bible teach about spirit beings yes or no? If yes then why do you say spirit don't exist?

haibe:

Its the spirit that goes to God when we die, the spirit in man isn't what you think it is, it is not a person, it is what keeps us alive and connects us to God, it is the candle of God in man.

So simply, the spirit is not just breath, neither is it a person that can exist on its own.

ravgach:

Confusion!

haibe:

@ravgach

Let me go by your logic that those people whose body arosed in matt 27:52 "went to heaven" indeed.

Now my question is this:

1) If they resurrected and went to heaven, does that not mean they are not disembodied spirits in heaven but real people with bodies?

2) Since this people are in heaven now after they resurrected(according to you), why would they need to ressurect again at the second coming of Christ? Talk about resurrecting twice..lol, or will they be exempted from resurrection at the second coming? Lol, then you would be contradicting Christ since he said "all".

3) If after those saints body arosed they "went to heaven", why then did peter say david's body was still with them after christ's resurrection ? (acts 2:9)

*According to you, at resurrection, the spirit who has been living many years in heaven enters its body and resurrects*.

Don't you think your kind of doctrine of resurrection is illogical since the saints in heaven have already resurrected like Christ and are in heaven? Which body will they put on at the resurrection this time? Does this make sense?

You said since then, everyone who died went to heaven. Now if those people resurrected bodily and "went to heaven", why won't everyone who die also resurrect first like them before going to heaven like them? why then are you propounding the idea of disembodied spirits going to heaven after death? when according to you those saints body arosed before going to heaven.

I think this should make it clear to you that no one except Jesus is in heaven now and that your doctrine of disembodied spirits going to heaven is pure heresy.

Like i said the other time, what you need is thorough bible study.

haibe:
I never said heaven is interchangeable with paradise, i was only using the idea people like you have of paradise, they generally say we are going to heaven, when in fact paradise is coming out from heaven to the earth, so its human idea that paradise is the same as heaven not the bible's idea.

2 cor 12 is not still supporting your point, paradise is presently in heaven, so if paul says he was taken up to paradise, it means he was taken up to heaven in essence, that's very logical, it doesn't mean paradise and heaven are the same thing.

John is right, excluding Jesus no one has ascended to heaven, neither has anyone gone to paradise after death, the heaven here doesn't correlate as regards elijah taken "UP TO HEAVEN".

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"(Gen 1:1)

"...and in multiplying, i will multiply thee as the stars of the heaven.."(Gen 22:17)

"...and let moses sprinkle it towards the heaven in the sight of pharoah"(Exo 9:

"...and worshipped all the host of heaven and served baal" (2 kings 17:16)

Is the heaven used here in this verses God's abode or paradise or the sky??

haibe:

Why do you refuse to answer my questions, instead you just play around it, lol.

haibe:

When an evil person dies, who does he go to meet in hell?

Any old testament prove that when an evil person dies, he goes to hell immediately?


You refused to answer this, why? Any prove of this from the OT ??

Itsfacts:

So you are saying when we die the spirit stop to exist because it doesn't exist on its own. So what goes to God?

haibe: @itsfact because people believe ghosts exist doesn't mean they really exist.

Jesus telling them he wasn't a spirit or ghost doesn't prove that ghosts exist, it was what they believed and he was only telling them he wasn't who they think he is, a ghost.

You can just answer the OP, then give verses to support your point, just do your part by answering the question.

haibe:

Okay its obvious you never got my point, maybe you should read the thread from the beginning, no one is saying there are no spirit beings, the point is that man does not posess a spirit being. For example God is a spirit and thus immortal, on the other hand man is flesh, that which is spirit is spirit, that which is flesh is flesh.

Spiritual beings exist no doubt like angels but man is created mortal from the dust, if man has a spirit being like that of the angels in him, then it means man was not made a little lower than the angels but infact greater than the angels.

The spirit in man is not an entity that can exist separately from the body, man only become like the angels after resurrecting in a spiritual body like that of angels. That's why Jesus compared us to angels after resurrection not before, he never said we have an angelic/spirit-like being living inside us that can exist independently from our body.

"For IN THE RESURRECTION, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, BUT ARE AS ANGELS OF GOD IN HEAVEN" (Mattew 22:30)

From the above passage, it is clear man does not become a spirit being like angels until resurrection, the spirit in man is not a spirit being like that of angels, infact it is not an entity at all, it is what empowers us to live and the candle of God in man but after the resurrection man then becomes a spiritual, incorruptible, immortal being like angels.

The idea of an immortal spirit living in man is pure heresy.

I urge you to please read my previous posts to avoid me repeating myself over again.

ravgach:


HUMAN SPIRIT

Proverbs 20:27 “The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.”

1 John 3:21 "Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. ... "

Psalm 103:2 "Praise the LORD, my soul, and forget not all his benefits..."

Revelation 6:9-10 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God...And
they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord..."

Spirits are real personalities.

ravgach:

This is a misrepresentation of Jesus Christ! Check out what he said here:

"And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?
"See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not
have flesh and bones as you see that I have."… Luke 24:38-39

Jesus do know and believe spirits exist and they are personalities that speak, feel, act, etc.

HOLY SPIRIT

Acts 8:29 "The Spirit told Philip, “Go to that chariot and stay near it.”

Acts 13:3 "While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”

Mark 13:11 "For it is not you speaking, but the Holy Spirit..."

Acts 10:19,20 “While Peter thought on the vision, THE SPIRIT SAID UNTO HIM, Behold, three men seek thee. Arise therefore, and get thee down, and go with them, doubting nothing: for I have sent them.”

EVIL SPIRITS

Matthew 8:29,31"And they cried out, saying, "What business do we have with each other, Son of God? Have You come here to torment us before the time?..."The demons began to entreat Him, saying, "If You are going to cast us out, send us into the herd of swine."…

Mark 5:6-9 "But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him, And cried with a loud voice, and said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of the most high God? I adjure thee by God, that thou torment me not. For he said unto him, Come out of the man, thou unclean spirit. And he asked him, What is thy name? And he answered, saying, My name is Legion: for we are many."

HUMAN SPIRIT

Proverbs 20:27 “The spirit of man is the candle of the Lord, searching all the inward parts of the belly.”

1 John 3:21 "Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. ... "

Psalm 103:2 "Praise the LORD, my soul, and forget not all his benefits..."

Revelation 6:9-10 "And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God...And
they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord..."

Spirits are real personalities.