striktlymi:






Hmmm...very nice! But the question here is: do you believe we will retain our free-will? If yes, then what is the assurance that we can't sin like Lucifer did? Remember that the things you mentioned: sex, fear, poverty etc were not the motivation for Lucifer...he wanted power.

Why are you still asking me questions about Freewill and satan's covetousness for power? Maybe you slowly and carefully go through my script again. Let me point out what satan failed to realise about God before he (satan) started coveting what belonged solely to our 'Rock of Ages' with this illustration. Suppose you are the owner of a big house and under your employ are several servants. Physically you are another Samson who no one knows how to defeat. The law in the house is that no gun is allowed, yet you have a secretly loaded gun hidden in one of the rooms. Unfortunately, one of your servants chances upon this gun, intent on killing you and taking over your property. The day he finally pulls the trigger is the day he finds you always wear a bullet proof vest inside. The day he finds out that the gun had always been put there to test their sincerity.
The bible asks a question: "Why do you fear the one who has power to kill the body only; what about the One who has the power to kill both the body and the soul?" Again, 'who can battle our God and win?' Satan might have thought he had finally won his evil intentions when he found (the gun), only he had not fully understood the powers that his Creator possessed. Nobody likes engaging in a battle he already knows he will not win. In fact, seeing God's biggest enemies- satan and his demons- blown to nothingness in the flames of hells, why would any one of the righteous wanna start a business he will not be able to finish. We will still have our freewill and more, but nobody will wanna try what the father of unfinished business did and failed. Who can battle the Lion of the tribe of Judea...?
What I have found out today is that somehow our present world has been a test ground since the garden of Eden saga.

striktlymi:

Jesus demonstrated that he can live without committing sin but 'man' on the other hand has shown repeatedly that we are only too capable of committing sin.

And this was confirmed when he learnt obedience in all ramifications....

And men who have imitated Jesus to be faithful to God even when imperfect would never rebel against God when they turn out perfect.......

striktlymi:

The bold suggests that there won't be 'total free-will' because from the statement we can't choose to do wrong in the life after.

All I meant from the bolded is that those in heaven would have been so refined that rebelling against no longer becomes an option....I mean take a look at individuals who died as matyr§......what again in this life and that to come would make such ones rebel against God in the heavens when they didn't when Ón earth(baTtling with imperfection and attacks from satan who would no longer exist).........

That's what I mean by the bolded....these individuals have built up there resistance to sin and Jesus who is the author of there faith must have solidified there faithfullness to GOD..........

No shakingd for there side....

mazaje:

When I say confusing, I mean that in one place the bible says one thing and in another it says something completely different. . .Example in some places, it says only the wicked and the guilty shall suffer here on earth, while in some places it says only the righteous will suffer here on earth. . . .There are so many such contradictions in the bible. . .

This your example i no sabi oh, care to quote? In life, there are situations where the hen emits chicken poo and then emit again and na egg. Same hen, same hole, no contradictions. Some may argue that this hen is not consistent. Context

Revelation 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

striktlymi:

Jesus demonstrated that he can live without committing sin but 'man' on the other hand has shown repeatedly that we are only too capable of committing sin

Actually, Jesus Christ BECAME US men to show us that we can actually please God and live an overcoming life. We are to walk in His steps, following Him.
Hebrews 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
1 Peter 2:21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:

striktlymi: Evening peeps,

I have been doing quite a bit of thinking and meditations if you like but still I am at a dilemma. If we are capable of committing sin here on Earth, why then can't we be capable of sinning in heaven?

I guess the answer that might jump right out would be 'free-will'...but again it can be argued that since Lucifer was able to sin in heaven then it is probable that we might just be able to sin too.

If we think that it is impossible to sin in heaven then the question I ask everyone is: Why was Lucifer able to sin?

Actually, lucifer did not sin in Heaven, afterall his ambition was to ascend there. OT passages seem to suggest that he was the landlord on earth before his corruption. Sin is not possible in our new nature in Heaven. We shall be changed having God's nature and seeing Him.It's like a man been afraid to lay eggs if he lives far, its not going to happen. Its not in his nature. The odds are zero and also satan the tempter will not be there.

Hallo Image,

Interesting thought...

Image123:
Actually, lucifer did not sin in Heaven, afterall his ambition was to ascend there. OT passages seem to suggest that he was the landlord on earth before his corruption.

I guess your opinion concerning whether Lucifer sinned in heaven or not is inspired by the book of Isaiah:

Isaiah 14:13-14
King James Version (KJV)
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Though my thoughts on the above passage are kinda different but if you uphold that Lucifer did not seen in heaven then how do you reconcile this with the description of the 'battle' given in the book of revelation?

Revelation 12:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

If indeed you agree that there was war in heaven in accordance with the book of revelation, can't it be said that Lucifer actually committed sin in heaven? To wage war in heaven against his divine majesty is a good argument that Lucifer sinned in heaven.

Image123:
Sin is not possible in our new nature in Heaven.

This much I agree with...but how is this to come about? Do we still keep our free-will and still avoid sin? Or do we give up our free-will?

Image123:
We shall be changed having God's nature and seeing Him.It's like a man been afraid to lay eggs if he lives far, its not going to happen. Its not in his nature.

Hmmm...we will have the nature of God? I don't understand!

Image123:
The odds are zero and also satan the tempter will not be there.

Well, I am of the opinion that Satan is not really responsible for the sins man choose to commit. If man will avoid sin in heaven, I really do not think that it will be because Satan is not there...the question that comes readily to mind is: who then tempted satan to commit sin?

striktlymi: Hallo Image,

Interesting thought...



I guess your opinion concerning whether Lucifer sinned in heaven or not is inspired by the book of Isaiah:

Isaiah 14:13-14
King James Version (KJV)
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

Though my thoughts on the above passage are kinda different but if you uphold that Lucifer did not seen in heaven then how do you reconcile this with the description of the 'battle' given in the book of revelation?

Revelation 12:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

If indeed you agree that there was war in heaven in accordance with the book of revelation, can't it be said that Lucifer actually committed sin in heaven? To wage war in heaven against his divine majesty is a good argument that Lucifer sinned in heaven.

Revelations is prophecy, about things to come mainly.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;
Also, there is the fact that he did say "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:" and "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds". The take is that the way in heaven was/is a war in a location between earth and God's Heaven. Satan is supposedly the prince of the power of the air, he controls wickedness in HIGH places as it were. This 'air' or 'high places' is where he currently dwells and from where he will be expunged. So, he is currently in heaven(or clearer still, in the heavens) but he doesn't dwell in God\s Holy Hill/Mount Heaven.

This much I agree with...but how is this to come about? Do we still keep our free-will and still avoid sin? Or do we give up our free-will?

1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
In our current nature, we can't even see Him and remain alive in the flesh. But when we get to Heaven, we will be changed, TO HIS NATURE. He cannot sin, not for all eternity, and we would not sin. Like a dog cannot fly as it is not in its nature, it would not think of it, and is not capable of it.

Hmmm...we will have the nature of God? I don't understand!

1Co 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Rev 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honor into it.

Well, I am of the opinion that Satan is not really responsible for the sins man choose to commit. If man will avoid sin in heaven, I really do not think that it will be because Satan is not there...the question that comes readily to mind is: who then tempted satan to commit sin?

satan is and means the adversary. He is the one tempter that tempts the living daylights out of people. In Christ's 1000year reign on earth where satan is locked up, there is virtually no sin or rebellion until he shows up again to tempt men. He is the theif, tempting and seeking whom to devour from Adam. His influence cannot be underestimated.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Image123:
Revelations is prophecy, about things to come mainly.
Rev 1:19 Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

Well the book of revelation did not just touch on present and future events from the time of John. I believe it also gave an insight to events that are passed too.

Image123:
Also, there is the fact that he did say "I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God:" and "I will ascend above the heights of the clouds". The take is that the way in heaven was/is a war in a location between earth and God's Heaven. Satan is supposedly the prince of the power of the air, he controls wickedness in HIGH places as it were. This 'air' or 'high places' is where he currently dwells and from where he will be expunged. So, he is currently in heaven(or clearer still, in the heavens) but he doesn't dwell in God\s Holy Hill/Mount Heaven.

If Lucifer's abode is already heaven, why then would he need to 'ascend' into heaven? Unless you are saying that he was chased out of heaven before he declared war on God and the Angels loyal to him.

Image123:
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
In our current nature, we can't even see Him and remain alive in the flesh. But when we get to Heaven, we will be changed, TO HIS NATURE. He cannot sin, not for all eternity, and we would not sin. Like a dog cannot fly as it is not in its nature, it would not think of it, and is not capable of it.

This does not answer the question I asked. Do we give up our free-will or do we get to keep our free-will to either commit sin or do good?

Image123:
satan is and means the adversary. He is the one tempter that tempts the living daylights out of people. In Christ's 1000year reign on earth where satan is locked up, there is virtually no sin or rebellion until he shows up again to tempt men. He is the theif, tempting and seeking whom to devour from Adam. His influence cannot be underestimated.
Rev 20:2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Isa 65:25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust shall be the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

Who tempted Lucifer?

striktlymi:

Well the book of revelation did not just touch on present and future events from the time of John. I believe it also gave an insight to events that are passed too.



If Lucifer's abode is already heaven, why then would he need to 'ascend' into heaven? Unless you are saying that he was chased out of heaven before he declared war on God and the Angels loyal to him.



This does not answer the question I asked. Do we give up our free-will or do we get to keep our free-will to either commit sin or do good?




Who tempted Lucifer?

i said things to come MAINLY, anyway ok.


The FACT remains that his 'ambition' was to ascend to Heaven, i didn't write it. Its either a contradiction or there is more than one heaven like i already opined. Remember Paul wrote of third heaven? He didn't sin in God's Heaven if we insist that he sinned in heaven. He wanted to ascend to that one.



You asked three questions in that quote, and i answered the first and more important one which scriptures talk about. i don't currently have scriptures to assert that there will be freewill or no freewill.



Nobody tempted lucifer, he corrupted himself. On the other hand, man was tempted and is tempted. But the word of God promises us that nothing that defiles or can defile will enter God's heaven. i believe that. Anything capable of defiling is without/outside. More reason to state that satan's initial sin was outside.

Image123:
i said things to come MAINLY, anyway ok.


The FACT remains that his 'ambition' was to ascend to Heaven, i didn't write it. Its either a contradiction or there is more than one heaven like i already opined. Remember Paul wrote of third heaven? He didn't sin in God's Heaven if we insist that he sinned in heaven. He wanted to ascend to that one.



You asked three questions in that quote, and i answered the first and more important one which scriptures talk about. i don't currently have scriptures to assert that there will be freewill or no freewill.



Nobody tempted lucifer, he corrupted himself. On the other hand, man was tempted and is tempted. But the word of God promises us that nothing that defiles or can defile will enter God's heaven. i believe that. Anything capable of defiling is without/outside. More reason to state that satan's initial sin was outside.

If lucifer actually corrupted himself, we can't rule out the possibility of another person corrupting himself since according to your post it is possible for one to corrupt himself without being tempted by another.

I don't think the bible recorded that anything capable of defiling another will not enter heaven rather it states that anything that has been defiled will not inherit heaven Rev21 v27.

lol. smh

*Kails*:
lol. smh

where have you been?

Image123:
i said things to come MAINLY, anyway ok.

Okay, cool!

Image123:
The FACT remains that his 'ambition' was to ascend to Heaven, i didn't write it. Its either a contradiction or there is more than one heaven like i already opined. Remember Paul wrote of third heaven? He didn't sin in God's Heaven if we insist that he sinned in heaven. He wanted to ascend to that one.

The ish of there being a contradiction does not arise here. Your explanation that Lucifer might have been in one of the lower levels of heaven seem plausible but the fact remains, he was still in heaven.

I don't believe that everyone would be in the same 'level' in heaven...some might be in the first heaven, some in the second heaven etc according to the graces one has amassed for himself here on Earth but despite the various 'levels' of heaven, we maintain that we won't be able to commit sin.

The question still pops up again, if Lucifer can sin in a 'lower level' of heaven, why can't we?

Image123:
You asked three questions in that quote, and i answered the first and more important one which scriptures talk about. i don't currently have scriptures to assert that there will be freewill or no freewill.

Okay, cool!

Image123:
Nobody tempted lucifer, he corrupted himself. On the other hand, man was tempted and is tempted. But the word of God promises us that nothing that defiles or can defile will enter God's heaven. i believe that. Anything capable of defiling is without/outside. More reason to state that satan's initial sin was outside.

If no one tempted Lucifer then we can safely say that temptations are not really the making of Satan because you just demonstrated that without Satan, one can still be tempted. I do believe that Satan has a hand in some of our temptations, hence his title as 'the tempter' is well earned, but I don't believe that he is always the reason why we get tempted.

I believe that free-will presupposes, inherently, this ability to get tempted. Though temptations are not really bad in themselves because, in my opinion, if we do not get tempted there is no way we can grow in God's grace and favour. But still man can be tempted even without Satan's help which still lead us back to the question of this ability to get tempted in heaven and probably sin.

striktlymi:

Okay, cool!



The ish of there being a contradiction does not arise here. Your explanation that Lucifer might have been in one of the lower levels of heaven seem plausible but the fact remains, he was still in heaven.

It would be a contradiction if he was in heaven and at the same time wanting to ascend to heaven.
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
The height of the clouds is also referred to as heaven and is a different location from the Heaven that believers hope to go. The heaven that i presume satan to be in till date is the cloud heaven/space which is accessible to humans too. There is no fact to state where he(satan) sinned. He has and had access to earth too.

I don't believe that everyone would be in the same 'level' in heaven...some might be in the first heaven, some in the second heaven etc according to the graces one has amassed for himself here on Earth but despite the various 'levels' of heaven, we maintain that we won't be able to commit sin.

I also may not believe that everyone believer will be in the same level in heaven, but i am positively certain that everyone believr will be in the same heaven. And in that Heaven, there will not be able to enter in anything or anyone that defiles. Sin cannot enter there.

The question still pops up again, if Lucifer can sin in a 'lower level' of heaven, why can't we?

Of course we have access to that lower level of heaven through planes and aircrafts. Any sinner can sin thre yet. but no one can sin in Heaven/ God's habitation.

Okay, cool!



If no one tempted Lucifer then we can safely say that temptations are not really the making of Satan because you just demonstrated that without Satan, one can still be tempted. I do believe that Satan has a hand in some of our temptations, hence his title as 'the tempter' is well earned, but I don't believe that he is always the reason why we get tempted.

I believe that free-will presupposes, inherently, this ability to get tempted. Though temptations are not really bad in themselves because, in my opinion, if we do not get tempted there is no way we can grow in God's grace and favour. But still man can be tempted even without Satan's help which still lead us back to the question of this ability to get tempted in heaven and probably sin.

We are not lucifer and were not created in his image. We are not even created with the same material and nature. The new testament clearly states that the devil plays a major position in humans committing sin. The Revelation 20 passage clearly showed how people lived in conformity to God's reign for 1000years until devil showed up. It's been same since Adam. There will be no such ability to sin in Heaven because we will be like God. The angels are not falling into sin are they, we would be like the angels as Jesus said, i sense even better.

Image123:
It would be a contradiction if he was in heaven and at the same time wanting to ascend to heaven.
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
The height of the clouds is also referred to as heaven and is a different location from the Heaven that believers hope to go. The heaven that i presume satan to be in till date is the cloud heaven/space which is accessible to humans too. There is no fact to state where he(satan) sinned. He has and had access to earth too.

Do we just take the "I will ascend to heaven..." in that passage to mean some physical ascent? The passage might just be depicting the ambition of Lucifer. If one says "I will ascend to power"...does this imply some physical ascent to power? The passage might just be telling us about Lucifer's ambition in rising up to assume the place of God.

That is, his desire to take the 'scepter' of authority and dethrone God from his exalted position. A hint of this can be inferred from what follows next: "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God...". What or who exactly are the stars of God? Is the passage referring to the physical stars we can see? I don't think so...

The root word הֵילֵל (Hillel) in Hebrew, translated as Lucifer in the King James bible actually means 'Morning Star'. And it can be inferred from the book of Job that some Angels were referred to as 'Morning stars' too:

Job 38:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I believe these 'Morning stars' are the chief Angels (ArchAngels if you wish)...and when Lucifer said he would exalt his throne above the stars of God, I believe he was saying that he would rise above these group of Angels to become Lord and master.

Anyways, all I have stated so far are speculations and a different interpretation can be given but the fact remains that Lucifer was an Angel and the abode of Angels is heaven, not Earth. If Lucifer sinned then it can be argued that he did that in heaven. Remember too that sin starts from the 'mind'.

Even if we want to go with your thoughts on the revelations of Isaiah, we can't help but say that what we have in that passage are just the intent of Lucifer and not the actual battle. He was just stating his intentions but in Revelations, it was stated categorically that the battle took place in heaven.

Image123:
I also may not believe that everyone believer will be in the same level in heaven, but i am positively certain that everyone believr will be in the same heaven. And in that Heaven, there will not be able to enter in anything or anyone that defiles. Sin cannot enter there.

I also believe the above but the ish still is how? Since you say you are not sure about the freewill thingy, I will shelve this.

Image123:
Of course we have access to that lower level of heaven through planes and aircrafts. Any sinner can sin thre yet. but no one can sin in Heaven/ God's habitation.

You must mistake my meaning when I said, "Lower level of heaven"...I am talking about a level inside heaven, not space or the sky.

Image123:
We are not lucifer and were not created in his image. We are not even created with the same material and nature. The new testament clearly states that the devil plays a major position in humans committing sin. The Revelation 20 passage clearly showed how people lived in conformity to God's reign for 1000years until devil showed up. It's been same since Adam. There will be no such ability to sin in Heaven because we will be like God. The angels are not falling into sin are they, we would be like the angels as Jesus said, i sense even better.

Satan plays some role in our being tempted but he is not the originator of temptations. Like I said before, I believe without Satan, man can still be tempted.

Do note that one major reason why man seem to be doing quite well before Satan came was that we were under grace then and the ish with the 'apple' had not come into play. Man was as innocent as a child but this was short-lived because of our decision to disobey God.

Yes, Satan played a role in our disobedience but still Adam and Eve would have been tempted to eat the fruit before Satan came, but I think they didn't because there was no third party involved in the probable temptations then.

Satan came into the scene to up the game...made them promises and before you know it, they were neck deep in sin.

somalia9:


where have you been?

mschew!
u still trolling in the culture section huh?

lol.

Sal C: If lucifer actually corrupted himself, we can't rule out the possibility of another person corrupting himself since according to your post it is possible for one to corrupt himself without being tempted by another.

I don't think the bible recorded that anything capable of defiling another will not enter heaven rather it states that anything that has been defiled will not inherit heaven Rev21 v27.

Lucifer is not man. Man would be like God, and it is not in God's nature to corrupt Himself or be able to. The possibility is ruled out.
Heb 6:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

Rev 21:27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.

i'll be replying striktly, please your question should be better covered in the reply, thanks.

striktlymi:

Do we just take the "I will ascend to heaven..." in that passage to mean some physical ascent? The passage might just be depicting the ambition of Lucifer. If one says "I will ascend to power"...does this imply some physical ascent to power? The passage might just be telling us about Lucifer's ambition in rising up to assume the place of God.

i think it is not just picture language but real. He said he will ascend, there is no enough reason for me top assume that he didn't mean it literally. I will ascend into heaven, I will ascend above, thou shalt be brought down to hell

That is, his desire to take the 'scepter' of authority and dethrone God from his exalted position. A hint of this can be inferred from what follows next: "I will exalt my throne above the stars of God...". What or who exactly are the stars of God? Is the passage referring to the physical stars we can see? I don't think so...

The root word הֵילֵל (Hillel) in Hebrew, translated as Lucifer in the King James bible actually means 'Morning Star'. And it can be inferred from the book of Job that some Angels were referred to as 'Morning stars' too:

Job 38:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

I believe these 'Morning stars' are the chief Angels (ArchAngels if you wish)...and when Lucifer said he would exalt his throne above the stars of God, I believe he was saying that he would rise above these group of Angels to become Lord and master.

We both know that the physical stars are not in God's Heaven but in the skies. This brings a possibility that any other star may also be found outside God's Heaven. It is really not compulsory for stars or angels to only be in God's Heaven, they can be found outside. Some men are also referred to as stars and as angels.
Rev 1:20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.

Another case in point is the passage that talked about sons of God having to come to God.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.
They do not necessarily have to live in God's Heaven, the universe belongs to God, and it shouldn't be such a unimaginable thing for some of God's creatures to dwell in places apart from those two locations in the universe. It's in human perspective that we call anyplace outside earth heaven.

Anyways, all I have stated so far are speculations and a different interpretation can be given but the fact remains that Lucifer was an Angel and the abode of Angels is heaven, not Earth. If Lucifer sinned then it can be argued that he did that in heaven. Remember too that sin starts from the 'mind'.

Even if we want to go with your thoughts on the revelations of Isaiah, we can't help but say that what we have in that passage are just the intent of Lucifer and not the actual battle. He was just stating his intentions but in Revelations, it was stated categorically that the battle took place in heaven.

We are not given a location, but it is not unimaginable to say that he sinned outside God's heaven. Actually, my view is that he was earth's prior inhabitant before we got here. If Ezekiel 28 is taken to refer to him that is. The Revelations passage actually happened after the creation of Adam, but we both know that satan had sinned before Adam.
Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Currently, satan is STILL undisputed prince of the power of the air, unfortunately. He has his host of wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 2:2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:
Jesus beheld him in heaven while He(Jesus) was on earth. i am positively sure that this heaven is not God's Heaven. Satan is not the prince of the power of God's Heaven. The queen of heaven, and wickedness in high places are not in God's Heaven. They are in the place where Michael and his angels will cast them out of. They will be cast out into the earth, satan and his angels. Presently they are still able to operate in the air and in high places as it were, but these places are not God's Heaven. That Revelations passage tells that he was already the accuser of the brethren before this casting down.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

I also believe the above but the ish still is how? Since you say you are not sure about the freewill thingy, I will shelve this.

How as in? How there will not be able to enter in anything or anyone that defiles? Well, i trust God to settle that one.
Psa 33:4 For the word of the LORD is right; and all his works are done in truth.
The word of the LORD is right, that is what i stick with. God's what says we will be like God, and like the angels. God does not sin, neither do the angels.
1Jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Dan 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
Luk 20:36 Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.

Our current nature has the flesh which lusts, but in Heaven, we will not have the flesh that lusts against the spirit. We will have put on a new tabernacle as it were.
1Co 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
1Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Gala 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh.
Gala 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

You must mistake my meaning when I said, "Lower level of heaven"...I am talking about a level inside heaven, not space or the sky.




Satan plays some role in our being tempted but he is not the originator of temptations. Like I said before, I believe without Satan, man can still be tempted.

Do note that one major reason why man seem to be doing quite well before Satan came was that we were under grace then and the ish with the 'apple' had not come into play. Man was as innocent as a child but this was short-lived because of our decision to disobey God.

Yes, Satan played a role in our disobedience but still Adam and Eve would have been tempted to eat the fruit before Satan came, but I think they didn't because there was no third party involved in the probable temptations then.

Satan came into the scene to up the game...made them promises and before you know it, they were neck deep in sin.

Satan plays not just some role but A MAJOR role in our temptation. He is the ENEMY, the adversary that has 'done this'. he is the thief roaming about tirelessly looking for whom to devour. We cannot gloss over THE FACTS that man(Adam and Eve) DID NOT SIN until he came, and that men did not/would not sin for 1000years when the devil is bound. And immediately he shows up, they sin again.
Rev 20:2 And he took the dragon, the old snake, which is the Evil One and Satan, and put chains on him for a thousand years,
Rev 20:3 And put him into the great deep, and it was shut and locked over him, so that he might put the nations in error no longer, till the thousand years were ended: after this he will be let loose for a little time.
Rev 20:7 And when the thousand years are ended, Satan will be let loose out of his prison,
Rev 20:8 And will go out to put in error the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to get them together to the war, the number of whom is like the sands of the sea.
Rev 20:9 And they went up over the face of the earth, and made a circle about the tents of the saints, and the well loved town: and fire came down out of heaven for their destruction.
Rev 20:10 And the Evil One who put them in error was sent down into the sea of ever-burning fire, where the beast and the false prophet are, and their punishment will go on day and night for ever and ever. BBE
Man was not under grace in Genesis before satan came. Actually, grace came through Jesus as it were and we are currently under grace.
Joh 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Man's decision to disobey came after the temptation BY satan. The temptation BY the Tempter led to the disobedience. we cannot just cut out the tempter's part and jump into the disobedience, it's a chain.
Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Note that God cannot be tempted with evil. If we are going to be like God in Heaven, it means we cannot be tempted with evil when we are like God. satan is not like God. He wanted to be like God among other things. But in Heaven, we shall be like Him.

Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jam 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Man is tempted(i.e falls in temptation) when he is drawn AWAY of his lust. The lust is there because of the flesh, it is connected to the flesh, and that flesh will no more be there in God's Heaven. The devil that might also trigger the temptation is not going to be in Heaven. The odds indeed are zero. The causes of sin are taken out and there is a new nature, the nature of God in its fullness, face to face. Heaven is a holy place, sin can never enter there.

^^^

Man was under grace at the garden of Eden. If man had not sinned and lost the grace of God, there won't have been a need for Christ to die. Christ's death won back what we lost.

outc@st:
^^^

Man was under grace at the garden of Eden. If man had not sinned and lost the grace of God, there won't have been a need for Christ to die. Christ's death won back what we lost.

okay sir.

Image123:
okay sir.

Sorry I forgot to mention that I am striktlymi...

outc@st:


Sorry I forgot to mention that I am striktlymi...

wetin do your username?

Mr anony:
wetin do your username?

Na manmustwac o!

The guy made me a 'scapegoat' yesterday...

outc@st:


Na manmustwac o!

The guy made me a 'scapegoat' yesterday...

Lol, for wetin na?

Mr anony:
Lol, for wetin na?

Dont listen to him. He got into the habit of shouting olodo on my threads without any relevant comment. Ihave reported him about 3 or more times to MMC. Hence the ban

This is even assuming that he doesnt do it on other threads.


Enjoy the buhhurt outcast

Mr anony:
Lol, for wetin na?

D guy say I dey troll for Lord LB thread.

Logicboy03:


Dont listen to him. He got into the habit of shouting olodo on my threads without any relevant comment. Ihave reported him about 3 or more times to MMC. Hence the ban

This is even assuming that he doesnt do it on other threads.


Enjoy the buhhurt outcast

[size=20pt]OLODO!!![/size]

^^^^

Anony, as you can see, your pal has proven my point!

Way to hang yourself , outcast!

Logicboy03: ^^^^

Anony, as you can see, your pal has proven my point!

Way to hang yourself , outcast!

[size=25pt]Olodo!!![/size]

Hey Outcast, I remember I promised to come back and make a response. I'll start by quoting myself from another thread here:

https://www.nairaland.com/1310138/dear-atheist-feel-need-thankful/5#16064958

To be born again means to be born of God, to walk according to the Spirit and not according to the flesh (i.e to be dead to sin). One does not earn a born again status by doing good things. One becomes born again when he completely submits to the Lordship of Christ and is transformed by Him. The Spirit of God now dwells in him, changing his desires such that he now wants the things of God and not things patterned after his selfish lusts.

Now why is it that Christians have been known to fall into sin atimes? I think the following passage explains it best:

Rom 7:14 We know that the law is spiritual; but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate.
Rom 7:16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree that the law is good.
Rom 7:17 So then it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that nothing good dwells within me, that is, in my flesh. I can will what is right, but I cannot do it.
Rom 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I that do it, but sin which dwells within me.
Rom 7:21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inmost self,
Rom 7:23 but I see in my members another law at war with the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin which dwells in my members.
Rom 7:24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
Rom 7:25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I of myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.
Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do: sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh,
Rom 8:4 in order that the just requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
Rom 8:5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit.
Rom 8:6 To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace.
Rom 8:7 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot;
Rom 8:8 and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But you are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Any one who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.
Rom 8:10 But if Christ is in you, although your bodies are dead because of sin, your spirits are alive because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will give life to your mortal bodies also through his Spirit which dwells in you.
Rom 8:12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh--
Rom 8:13 for if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body you will live.
Rom 8:14 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the spirit of sonship. When we cry, "Abba! Father!"
Rom 8:16 it is the Spirit himself bearing witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Rom 8:17 and if children, then heirs, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, provided we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with him.

Now what was I trying to point out with that passage? I was showing that as long as we live on earth our renewed spirit which is born of God will contend with the flesh. But when the Lord gives us a new body at His coming, when we inherit God's kingdom, we will not have the lusts of our flesh to contend with anymore but we would have been transformed in Spirit and now also in body and our desires will be in tune with God's therefore it will be impossible for us to sin in heaven.

You can follow my argument on that thread as it addresses the same questions and if you are still interested, let us proceed . . . .or am I late and your questions have already been answered?

Mr anony: Hey Outcast, I remember I promised to come back and make a response. I'll start by quoting myself from another thread here:

https://www.nairaland.com/1310138/dear-atheist-feel-need-thankful/5#16064958


You can follow my argument on that thread as it addresses the same questions and if you are still interested, let us proceed . . . .or am I late and your questions have already been answered?

Good morning Anony,

Thanks for keeping your promise...I guess I would have bugged you about it but didn't cause I followed that thread for a while and a lot of the questions I had were answered on that thread which proved to be quite insightful after the 'run around' with Thehomy.

Now, the only question that is left unanswered is: Why did the 'morning star' (Lucifer) commit sin? Image has provided an interesting perspective to the discourse....he believes that Lucifer did not sin in heaven but somewhere outside the divine majesty's abode i.e not inside heaven.

I was not satisfied with Image's perspective for two reasons: Angels live in heaven before the great battle and it was stated categorically in the book of Revelations that the 'battle' took place in heaven...

You and the others have provided plausible explanations to why man will not sin when he makes heaven i.e the flesh that is prone to sin will be discarded and the glorified body will be God's gift to man.

This is understandable in the sense that the flesh is Earthly and so is its desires while the glorified body is heavenly and so will be its desires.

But in the case of Angels there is no flesh to lead them to sin but Lucifer sinned all the same. What assurance do we have that what happened to Lucifer will not happen to some other Angel sometime in the future?

Sorry I decided to go back to my former id