"Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! - Religion (26) - Nairaland
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| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 10:52pm On Jul 07, 2013 |
BERNIMOORE: @benalvino Is benalvino actually running away from the oneness explicitly shown in these verses below and chasing marraige oneness and thereby calling us brides of Christ??...... John 17:20-23 English Standard Version (ESV) 20 “I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word, 21 that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22 The glory that you have given me I have given to them, that they may be one even as we are one, 23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. Is benalvino running away from Jesus' clear definition of oneness in these verses??........  ..... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by BERNIMOORE: 11:02pm On Jul 07, 2013 |
@ijawkid Is benalvino running away from Jesus' clear definition of oneness in these verses??........ to his own detriment if he choose to run, you know he ignores direct fact, thats not a problem for me but how can one celebrate that he prove from the bible when in bold letters he admitted in his own post i tagged 1(#a)that 'nowhere in the bible' say bride of christ? |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by BERNIMOORE: 11:51pm On Jul 07, 2013 |
benalvino claims below, but fears could not let him quote a bible verse to support this gamble below to prove the bride issue we are talking about; [benalvino post 1(#b)] Benalvino:How is it desperation? You dont understand the verse isn't it? We all know the holy one of Israel is Jesus... Let me help you. i pressed him further to back up with verses, then he relied on Revelation 21:1-2 below i will tag the verse below [1(#c)]; King James Version (KJV) 21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. now lets compare benalvinos statement (1#b)above and the verse he relied on and supplied; Revelation 21:1-2 [1(#b)] benalvino;Jarusalem is addresses as a woman seperated from her husband(the lord) will be restored and multiply and she will be reunited with her husband and [[1(#c)] Revelation 21:1-2 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband from these two statements,[1(#b)] and [1(#c)] above; (1)if ([i]according to benalvino) Jarusalem is addresses as a woman seperated from her husband(the lord) which means the church (jerusalem) is not in the heaven with the husband, or (2) if (according to benalvino) Jarusalem is addresses as a woman will be restored and multiply before she will be reunited with her husband, how come jerusalem which is (the church according to benalvino) will be[b] coming down out of heaven as a bride[/b], and the husband (lord) is in the same heaven?, already united in heaven. see oga teacher's faulty teachings, can you see what you present to someone to learn? (fella kuti; teacher dont teach me nonesense) benalvino pls answer the questions above if you want to be taking seriously [/i] 1 Like |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 11:52pm On Jul 07, 2013 |
@benalvino....I missed this your comment which I'm going to put in bold... "i will show more which i have done before in how they try to avoid the personification of wisdom as a woman" Nobody avoided anything.....wisdom has always been presented as feminine consistently....... Paul taught, “Christ ... the Wisdom of God,” and, “hidden in Christ are all the treasures of wisdom [Greek = sophias].” (1 Corinthians 1:24; 2:7; Colossians 2:3) In Proverbs 8 the word for Wisdom is sophia (feminine) and this is the same word Paul used in the texts above, all feminine. You simply have no case here as to wisdom been refered to in the feminine sense.... Because right there in 1 corinthians 1:24 and colossians 2:3 wisdom which is Jesus is also feminine.... Nigeria been refered to as a "she"(feminine) does not make nigeria a woman.... I think you would have to grow some sense as regards this feminine ish.... And again I would want to sound this notice:::.... Don't bring the NWT or yap about the NWT as we discuss..... I see it as a cheap tactic you have employed to run away from clear truths when presented.... The next time you bring in the NWT even when I don't use it on this forum to make and support my points I would desist from this discussion.... Maybe I would have to create a new username to debate with you,so that you don't think you're arguing with a JW..... It is simply because you know I'm a JW that is why instead of going into real research work and use other renderings you rather sit back and say the NWT this and that .... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by BERNIMOORE: 12:08am On Jul 08, 2013 |
having approached benalvino on his flaws above on page (23) he said this below in an embarrassing tone; benalvino: lol forget about this bride thing I made a point with the groom and you people didn't see it. yet our teacher benalvino who said this above claims that 'he has taught us' switch code to only the groom having failed to prove the 'bride' in 1(#a) in page 24,..................... wonders shall never end! 1 Like |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by truthislight: 12:16am On Jul 08, 2013 |
BERNIMOORE: @benalvino The guy is a liar, a fraud, and a confused fellow. He has become a nuisance of the highest order. Even if the truth enters his eyes he will not see it. Even if the truth slaps him on the face, he will not know, he will come back and speak stupendiouse things. I just dont know why Trinity have a nack for turning people foolish and making them liars for its sake. Smh for them. Someone will just stand up and say that other people answer/bear the name Yahweh/Jehovah, that it is a name that other people bear.  Simply put, trinity destroys the normal mind. No wander christiandom is the way it is today with its trinity, >>>> a reproach to Yahweh and christ. *sigh* |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by BERNIMOORE: 12:57am On Jul 08, 2013 |
benalvino admit individuality of separate entities below: Ephesians chapter 5:21-32 is a passage of scripture that compares the marital relationship of a man and a woman to that of Christ and the church. The important truth to remember about the church is that it is made of individuals. True religion is individual and personal. So when this comparison is made between Christ and the church it should be thought of first on an individual basis. he cited pauls inspired comment but benalvino instead of seing what paul wants to prove chose to divert to holding an opinion saying that we 'church' married christ, instead of submission to christ, the way christ did to her husband, the book of analysed like this, using the individual concept husband head of wife as christ head the church as God (father) is the head of christ 1 corinthians 11:3; But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. striking a balanced individual relations, only for benalvino to say that he is more knowlegeable than inspired apostle paul by saying, husband and wife in relation to christ above, means that husband is the same person as the wife, this is because[b] he said christ is the same God that head himself, submit to himself, appoint himself,instructs himself........ [/b] husband is the same person as the wife; heads himself, submit to himself, ,instructs himself...... [size=18pt]bible teaches one God 'God alone' [/size] Psalm 83:18 That they may know that thou alone, whose name is Jehovah, Art the Most High over all the earth. saiah 45:21 Declare what is to be, present it-- let them take counsel together. Who foretold this long ago, who declared it from the distant past? Was it not I, the LORD? And there is no God apart from me, a righteous God and a Savior; there is none but me. 1 Like |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 1:00am On Jul 08, 2013 |
Now is it only the JW's who agrees that create should be used for proverbs 8:22??....do you see why the truth in that verse has been so hard for you to gulp??...because you in your mind you are arguing with a JW;s..... Dude the fact remains that wisdom is an attribute of God he possessed okay... you cannot say he created his own attribute... honestly this is modern day Arianism... the earth was created through God's wisdom and understanding you cant say he created this... God has always exist therefore all his attributes too... when God was creating the earth he used bara... if he was creating wisdom he will use bara also... other verses you cited concerning qanah translating creator is not valid because the creation has already taken place... from here wisdom as always exist... there was never a time God was without wisdom. unless you can tell me if there is another wisdom that is not the wisdom of God... Proverbs 2:6 tells us, "For the LORD giveth wisdom: out of his mouth cometh knowledge and understanding." God is the source of Wisdom; Wisdom is, therefore, one of God's very characteristics and attributes. Question for you... God as always been the same from eternity to eternity... Wisdom is an attribute of God, and is co-eternal with Him -- otherwise, Wisdom is a thing "added" to Him, or someone has "instructed" Him. so do you think that something was added to God that he didn't have before? I mean his attribute? (Isa. 40:13), says that God had no advisor in his work of creation, but that his Wisdom was his advisor. The meaning is clearly that God had no one to advise him. His Wisdom, who is not someone else but intrinsic to his own identity, advised him." Proverbs 3:19 By wisdom the LORD laid the earth's foundations, by understanding he set the heavens in place; again there was never a time God was without wisdom... your translation is from the arius controversy. Sometimes I wonder if I am arguing with a child...how can quanah be rendered create in this contexts when creation is not being discussed or when creation is not the subject under consideration??...... Are you thinking with your brains or with your computerhuh..... Is proverbs 8:22-31 talking about aquiring wisdom or the fact that wisdom was the beginning of Gods work(creation) and also juxtaposed alongside,the mountains,seas and fountains that were created or rather brought forth just as wisdom was??... Are the scriptures you quoted there talking about creation??....Proverbs 8:22-30 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old. I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was. When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water. Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth: While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world. When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth: When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep: When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth: Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him... the Lord possessed me in the beginning of his ways... whats wrong with this? Nothing... the Lord created me in the beginning of his ways... Abeg which wisdom God use create wisdom? before his works of old he have wisdom... wisdom was setup from everlasting... Clearly "wisdom" is not something we create or acquire from outside; we cultivate our own attributes from within. Yet we also see it, as in Gen. 4:1 and Prov. 8, used of the imagery of giving birth. The nature of Wisdom to God is of an attribute that is possessed, used, and cultivated (in line with God using Wisdom as a tool to create, in Proverbs  . Before eve concieved and gave birth to cain,had cain always existedhuh...doesn't quanah in this context connote bringing forth a life into existence that wasn't existing before??...... sorry but qanah is never used for creating... you have seen all the scriptures. Bara is used for creating. Strong's Number: 07069didnt you see posses there? or acquire or get? why focus on create? when the bible is talking about creating it uses bara. and the context in proverbs 8 shows that God already have wisdom... simple as that... you call KJV fraud cause it did not support what you wanted... lol if we talk about NWT you will say am attacking your religion... And I have no problem with the word "bara"...what I have a problem is with you for not seeing that qanah when used under the purview of creation strictly meanswho told you in Proverbs 8 it is creation of wisdom rather possess? or maybe get? again by your context God didnt have wisdom so he created wisdomcreation,formed,produced.....smh!!!..... and psalm 74:2 contextually deserves qanah to be rendered as aquire....NO??...Is creation the topic in psalms 74:2??....what is wrong with you??.. what an insult... you said the aramic bible was accurate in translating proverbs as created... and the net bible and all others you liked that gave you what you need... because they are supporters of arius... now see how they translate this... [b]New International Version (©2011) Remember the nation you purchased long ago, the people of your inheritance, whom you redeemed-- Mount Zion, where you dwelt. New Living Translation (©2007) Remember that we are the people you chose long ago, the tribe you redeemed as your own special possession! And remember Jerusalem, your home here on earth. English Standard Version (©2001) Remember your congregation, which you have purchased of old, which you have redeemed to be the tribe of your heritage! Remember Mount Zion, where you have dwelt. New American Standard Bible (©1995) Remember Your congregation, which You have purchased of old, Which You have redeemed to be the tribe of Your inheritance; And this Mount Zion, where You have dwelt. King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old; the rod of thine inheritance, which thou hast redeemed; this mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt. Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009) Remember Your congregation, which You purchased long ago and redeemed as the tribe for Your own possession. Remember Mount Zion where You dwell. International Standard Version (©2012) Remember your community, whom you purchased long ago, the tribe whom you redeemed for your possession. Remember Mount Zion, where you live. NET Bible (©2006) Remember your people whom you acquired in ancient times, whom you rescued so they could be your very own nation, as well as Mount Zion, where you dwell! Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010) Remember your congregation which you have possessed from the first, and you have saved the tribe of your inheritance, this Mount Zion in which you have dwelt. GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995) Remember your congregation. Long ago you made it your own. You bought this tribe to be your possession. This tribe is Mount Zion, where you have made your home. King James 2000 Bible (©2003) Remember your congregation, which you have purchased of old; the tribe of your inheritance, which you have redeemed; this mount Zion, where you have dwelt. American King James Version Remember your congregation, which you have purchased of old; the rod of your inheritance, which you have redeemed; this mount Zion, wherein you have dwelled. American Standard Version Remember thy congregation, which thou hast gotten of old, Which thou hast redeemed to be the tribe of thine inheritance; And mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt. Douay-Rheims Bible Remember thy congregation, which thou hast possessed from the beginning. The sceptre of thy inheritance which thou hast redeemed: mount Sion in which thou hast dwelt. Darby Bible Translation Remember thine assembly, which thou hast purchased of old, which thou hast redeemed to be the portion of thine inheritance, this mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt. English Revised Version Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old, which thou hast redeemed to be the tribe of thine inheritance; and mount Zion, wherein thou hast dwelt. Webster's Bible Translation Remember thy congregation, which thou hast purchased of old: the rod of thy inheritance, which thou hast redeemed; this mount Zion, in which thou hast dwelt. World English Bible Remember your congregation, which you purchased of old, which you have redeemed to be the tribe of your inheritance; Mount Zion, in which you have lived. Young's Literal Translation Remember Thy company. Thou didst purchase of old, Thou didst redeem the rod of Thy inheritance, This mount Zion -- Thou didst dwell in it. [/b] tell me how many of your beloved bible use create for qanah like the did in proverbs 8? Answer is non... this is the fact you not getting... arian controversy is in place... Please......isn't the use of creator for qanah the most appropriate in that versehuh.....the context there is strictly on God being the creator and not just a possessor as the KJV would render it.....or would you say God did not create the earth but rather just possessed it??....again like i said using qanah as creator is correct but possess is also correct concerning the context... and in proverbs 8 possess is more accurate... God has always been with wisdom Period... My problem is why are bringing the NWT into this discussion?? Am I using it in this discussion?? It seems the best way you can argue is when you put the NWT in front of you...abi??it is the source of your beliefs... you believe everything that is in it. you are trying to debunk but cannot address the question... why is it that God have to create wisdom something that has always been with him... else you saying he was without wisdom? again i dont know first fruit is coming from or which bible Stb or aramic you are quoting from... but you are just finding once that suits you and yet others that dont are useless then tomorrow they will be useful when they suit you... 1 Like |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 1:08am On Jul 08, 2013 |
ijawkid: @benalvino....I missed this your comment which I'm going to put in bold...wisdom is referred to Jesus... the power of God is referred to Jesus... my point is... why are they not sure is their rendering? changing text in the bible? cause they dont like the fact that wisdom is personified as woman simple... i have showed you that in the original post on this thread so no need to go into that here. |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 1:33am On Jul 08, 2013 |
BERNIMOORE: This should answer your question... read the verse and the explanation and dont try to draw me back... The imagery and symbolism of marriage is applied to Christ and the body of believers known as the church. These are those who have trusted in Jesus Christ as their personal savior and have received eternal life. In the New Testament, Christ, the Bridegroom, has sacrificially and lovingly chosen the church to be His bride Ephesians 5:25–27 (ESV) 25 Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, 26 that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, 27 so that he might present the church to himself in splendor, without spot or wrinkle or any. Just as there was a betrothal period in biblical times during which the bride and groom were separated until the wedding, so is the bride of Christ separate from her Bridegroom during the church age. Her responsibility during the betrothal period is to be faithful to Him (2 Corinthians 11:2; Ephesians 5:24) 2 Corinthians 11:2 (ESV) 2 For I feel a divine jealousy for you, since I betrothed you to one husband, to present you as a pure virgin to Christ. Ephesians 5:24 (ESV) 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit in everything to their husbands At the Second Coming of Christ, the church will be united with the Bridegroom, the official "wedding ceremony" will take place and, with it, the eternal union of Christ and His bride will be actualized (Revelation 19:7-9; 21:1-2). Revelation 19:7–9 (ESV) 7 Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; 8 it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints Revelation 21:1–2 (ESV) 21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for ... At that time, all believers will inhabit the heavenly city known as New Jerusalem, also called “the holy city” in Revelation 21:2 and 10. The New Jerusalem is not the church, but it takes on the church’s characteristics. In his vision of the end of the age, the Apostle John sees the city coming down from heaven adorned “as a bride,” meaning that the inhabitants of the city, the redeemed of the Lord, will be holy and pure, wearing white garments of holiness and righteousness. Some have misinterpreted verse 9 to mean the holy city is the bride of Christ, but that cannot be because Christ died for His people, not for a city. The city is called the bride because it encompasses all who are the bride, just as all the students of a school are sometimes called “the school.” As believers in Jesus Christ, we who are the bride of Christ wait with great anticipation for the day when we will be united with our Bridegroom. Until then, we remain faithful to Him and say with all the redeemed of the Lord, “Come, Lord Jesus!” (Revelation 22:20). don't put words into my mouth okay... the second time am clearing it our for you... and yes its exactly what the bible says... the trinity did not say the father is the son... it says the father and son is the one being that is God... when you decide not to take this saying they you will start misquoting me... Now is still stand that the son is subordinate to the father... you are just making cheeky statement about me... 1 Like |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 2:00am On Jul 08, 2013 |
benalvino:I feel like calling you a mumu.... I give you this example so that you digest it..... Man is call the glory of God...God has his own inherent glory as his attribute.... Since man is the glory of God and God created man,was there a time when God never had his glory with him??... Please answer.... I can see that even with clear scriptures you are still stiff necked.... the wisdom in proverbs 8:22-31 is not Gods inhernet wisdom which has always existed...the wisdom in proverbs 8:22-31 was created,was birthed...it had a beginning...and so does not qualify as Gods inherent wisdom....do you need me to use cane to teach you this??.... And my job here is to establish that this wisdom under consideration was created.... benalvino:I just gave a clear example of one of Gods attribute....his GLORY.... Was there ever a time God was without his glory before he created man who is his glory??... I am disaapointed in you big time.... Till this moment you can't distinguish between Gods inherent attributes and when a creation of his is termed his attribute to describe how such one acts with Gods attribute...... I shake my head.... I even quoted an example from acts where a man who performed powerful works was called the power of God,an attribute of God.. Wisdom which is Jesus was created,was formed,was born before ever the world was born or formed ..... Wisdom in proverbs 8:22-31 does not in anyway signify Gods inherent wisdom.... And you tend to forget that this wisdom just like Jesus is the beginning of Gods creation,the first fruit of Gods works.... And you say the NWT is from the arius controversy.....what about the 10's of trinitarians renderings I have provided..are they also from the arius controversy??.... And your think your own rendering is not from the famous nicean wahala...the fraud that has landed christianity in the present pagan state it is.... benalvino: And again you are behaving childish... Qanah(create) as well as CHUWL(born,made) are juxataposed together in describing this wisdom all to drive home the point that it was infact created,birthed,formed just as the earth,the mountains etc were created too..... Now let me expose your ignorance once more... Can you please ask the KJV why they didn't use REDEEM in place of possess for qanah in proverbs 8:22??..... Redeem is also a word that refers to qanah....can redeem fit into that verse and make any sense??...let us say the LORD redeemed me(wisdom) as the beginning of his way...does it make sense??.... The context in proverbs 8:22-31 is strictly under creation....so qanah as referenced alongside the greek septuagint shows qanah to mean create,which further agrees with the parallel CHUWL which connotes giving birth,born,form, etc.... And once again it is not Gods inherent wisdom that was created... Get this point into your thick trinitarian skull... benalvino: And qanah is used effectively to denote create or form when creation is under consideration... You are the liar here who is insinuating that only bara is used for create or for words coined from create... You are the deciever here.... benalvino:Why focus on possess in a discussion that is talking about creation??...ask your dubious self.... 1 corinthians 1:24 has shown this wisdom personified isn't Gods inherent wisdom but his son.....and this Jesus had a beginning as the beginning of Gods creation... I call KJV a fraud for forwarding the latin vulgate meaning into a creation discussion... Hope u get the gist??... benalvino:Once again you show case your foolishness.... Is the scripture you put up there linked with creation??.... Context my brother......qanah can't be rendered create of form when the context isn't about creation...can't you grow some sense??..... Remember on the other thread I provided the exact same greek rendering,a parallel for the hebrew qanah on satan on how he was created??..... You dodget it!!!.... And please kindly tell me the time God was without his glory before he created man.... benalvino: You see your dubious self.... Why can't create be correct for proverbs 8:22 which is discussing about creation??.... So in genesis 14:19,22 you clearly saw that qanah strictly infered creator...infact the use of possessor in those verses is ludicrous... God made the heavens and earth and so fittingly is called a creator rather than a possessor.... benalvino: And how have I debated my stance with the NWT in mind??....you have only assumed what is sweet to your head.... The NWT has never been my authority here on nairaland... And first fruit is popping out to show you what the meaning of wisdom in proverbs 8:22 and Jesus in revelations 3:14 being the beginning of Gods work or creation means??.... I know you have been very slow to grasp this glaring point.... you have so many facts in front of you.... 1..The wisdom in question was formed (qanah) 2..It is the beginning of Gods work(creation) ... 3..It was born,birthed,brought forth as of with labour pains just as the mountains,seas and the world which was juxtaposed with it were..., You can't run away from these points.... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 2:10am On Jul 08, 2013 |
benalvino: Whose rendering??..... Am I using the NWT??..... Stop this baby prangs and get down to business........ Wisdom is personified as woman and Jesus is that woman since your brain has decided not to function well.... Wisdom is in the feminine there in 1 corinthians 1:24 and colossians 2:3...... Infact paul left it feminine to show people like you that wisdom being feminine does not make it a woman..... I gave you an example even on some other thread if not this same thread of how Jesus being refered to as the rock foundation of the church was in the feminine form.....does that make Jesus a woman??.... We all know Jesus isn't a woman so your obsession with wisdom been rendered in the feminine way is null and void..... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by Itsfacts: 7:02am On Jul 08, 2013 |
ijawkid:dude the difference between you and Ben is you are insulting and you can't stand a mention of your religion or your fraudulent bible If the guy will make point using your bible as he stated you believe in to show you that words are rendered different why get offended? This is typical of you. Reading above you call kjv fake and use rendering that looks like your fraudulent bible so oga why you they rage? |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 8:31am On Jul 08, 2013 |
I feel like calling you a mumu....I give you this example so that you digest it.....Man is call the glory of God...God has his own inherent glory as his attribute....Since man is the glory of God and God created man,was there a time when God never had his glory with him??...Please answer.... I can see that even with clear scriptures you are still stiff necked....the wisdom in proverbs 8:22-31 is not Gods inhernet wisdom which has always existed...the wisdom in proverbs 8:22-31 was created,was birthed...it had a beginning...and so does not qualify as Gods inherent wisdom....do you need me to use cane to teach you this??....And my job here is to establish that this wisdom under consideration was createdYou are showing frustration because i dont agree with your arianism... you can call me mumu if it removes some of them i dont mind but it wont translate your argument to truth... abeg which is God's inherited wisdom? the bible says by his wisdom and understanding he created the heavens and earth... now you are here saying he uses created wisdom to create heaven and earth... which kind logic be that show me one verse that supports that? or you want to start with your assumption games again... God has one wisdom and he uses it to create the World... the source of all wisdom is God... you get the point... you might be educated doesnt mean you have wisdom... it is an attribute within you... Glory The glory of God is the beauty of His spirit. It is not an aesthetic beauty or a material beauty, but it is the beauty that emanates from His character, from all that He is. James 1:10 calls on a rich man to “glory in his humiliation,” indicating a glory that does not mean riches or power or material beauty. This glory can crown man or fill the earth. It is seen within man and in the earth, but it is not of them; it is of God. The glory of man is the beauty of man’s spirit, which is fallible and eventually passes away, and is therefore humiliating—as the verse tells us. But the glory of God, which is manifested in all His attributes together, never passes away. It is eternal. Isaiah 43:7 (ESV) 7 everyone who is called by my name, whom I created for my glory, whom I formed and made.” he created man for his glory... it did not say he created Glory... says that God created us for His glory. In context with the other verses, it can be said that man “glorifies” God because through man, God’s glory can be seen in things such as love, music, heroism and so forth—things belonging to God that we are carrying “in jars of clay” 2 Corinthians 4:7 (ESV) 7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us. We are the vessels which “contain” His glory. All the things we are able to do and to be find their source in Him. God interacts with nature in the same way. Nature exhibits His glory. His glory is revealed to man’s mind through the material world in many ways, and often in different ways to different people. One person may be thrilled by the sight of the mountains, and another person may love the beauty of the sea. But that which is behind them both (God’s glory) speaks to both people and connects them to God. In this way, God is able to reveal Himself to all men, no matter their race, heritage or location. As Psalm 19:1-4 says, “The heavens are telling of the glory of God and their expanse is declaring the work of His hands; day to day pours forth speech, and night to night reveals knowledge. There is no speech, nor are there words; their voice is not heard. Their line has gone out through all the earth, and their utterances to the end of the world.” the glory of God was not created... all the things you see today are show his glory to show he exist. your statement here doesn't count. Isaiah 42:8 (ESV) 8 I am the Lord; that is my name; my glory I give to no other, nor my praise to carved idols. I even quoted an example from acts where a man who performed powerful works was called the power of God,an attribute of God.. Wisdom which is Jesus was created,was formed,was born before ever the world was born or formed .....Now you see how you are trying hard? the power of God is who's power? is it the man that is the power or it is the power the man displays that is of God? where is the source of that power? was the power created or it is eternally coming from God? again just as the bible says the power of God is eternal so is wisdom of God he uses to create Heaven and earth... you cant tell me he has main wisdom and another wisdom it doesn't make sense... all wisdom is from God and its eternal. if Jesus was created wisdom and God use another wisdom instead of his original wisdom then this question comes back to bite you... Question for you... you have to answer this question... through Jesus who is the wisdom of God he found the heaven and earth... so if you are saying Jesus is an angel does this contradicts Isa 40:13 and many other verse that says when God was making the earth no one was there beside him? you see the problem you are facing! you have to clear this out. me and you we have word and that our word is subordinate to us... that is how Jesus is to the father. again you conclude that Jesus was a spirit or angel but the bible every is saying no one was beside God and he did it alone and this other verse says no one advised him he did it alone with his wisdom... this is a problem for you till you get pass here we can continue. Now let me expose your ignorance once more... Can you please ask the KJV why they didn't use REDEEM in place of possess for qanah in proverbs 8:22??Why don't you ask other bible you like why they didn't use possess? And once again it is not Gods inherent wisdom that was created...so which of the wisdom God create? wisdom 2 or wisdom 1.1? Wisdom is wisdom and the source is God... Quote from you magazine... about the 4 attributes of Jehovahyour Organization teaches his wisdom is seen in his creations... even is power... Now you are here saying he created wisdom... even them just because of the Arianism going on you want Jesus you be created... Go cannot create his attribute... i dont buy the fact you are saying this wisdom he created is not his attribute then why is it called his wisdom does he have 2 different wisdom? You have to answer this then we can go on. quote from watchtower publication the above contradicts God's words... God says during creation the as another person was not there... i already provided verses for that which he hasn't answered so the question is still hunting him... the bible also ask is it not One God that created us? So who was there other than God? 1 Like |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 9:00am On Jul 08, 2013 |
@benalvino...I just had to make this little exposition on the hebrew word BARA to let you understand how one word can differ or mean different things depending on the topic under consideration or context.... Bara does not mean and only mean to create or make,just as qanah does not only mean to possess and aquire as we all have seen from the various definitions of the hebrew word... BARA also means to cut down,to assemble,to fill up,to dispatch.....these are meanings that differ greatly from create,but all are BARA.... Now see the scriptures below for further understanding... Josh 17:15 And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and cut down ( bara) for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee. Josh 17:18 But the mountain shall be thine; for it is a wood, and thou shalt cut it down ( bara): and the outgoings of it shall be thine: for thou shalt drive out the Canaanites, though they have iron chariots, and though they be strong. Psalm 51: 10 Create (bara) in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Psalm 102:18 This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created ( bara) shall praise the Lord. Isa 65: 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create ( bara): for, behold, I create (bara) Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. Ezek 23: 47 And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch ( bara) them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire. Do you see the various usage of this same hebrew word bara??...... Infact the use of create for bara is only on contextual basis.... Because if you decide to put create for everywhere bara is found the scriptures would be rendered useless.... We cannot say as seen in joshua Josh 17:15 And Joshua answered them, If thou be a great people, then get thee up to the wood country, and create ( bara) for thyself there in the land of the Perizzites and of the giants, if mount Ephraim be too narrow for thee. This verse won't make sense if we use create as I have used it...rather it would make sense when an alternative meaning of bara which is cut down is used....also I can't go to genesis 1:1 and say in the beginning God cut down or God dispatched the heavens and the earth... Context my bro..... Remember this lil exposition is for the justification of the rendering of qanah as create or form when creation is in view..... Bara which you think is an exclusive word for create has been totally cleared... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 9:26am On Jul 08, 2013 |
ijawkid: @benalvino...I just had to make this little exposition on the hebrew word BARA to let you understand how one word can differ or mean different things depending on the topic under consideration or context.... I kept Questions for you to answer and you are coming back with the creation translation thing... Let us put it aside ok... answer the questions so we can move on... you have to answer those questions. |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 9:33am On Jul 08, 2013 |
benalvino: And as you are daft you still can't differentiate between wisdom which is created in proverbs and Gods inherent wisdom...until you do that then your eyes would be clear.... What I am trying to help you see is that the wisdom in proverbs is created and so can't be Gods inherent wisdom.... Don't be stiff... benalvino: The bolded encapsulates all that I have been trying to drive into your head.... Do you see how you unknowingly defined what it means when a created being by God is termed as his attribute??.... You said through man Gods glory can be seen....perfect!!!!.....this is exactly what it means when Jesus is said to be the wisdom of God.....he isn't Gods inherent or intrinsic wisdom but a vendor through which Gods inherent wisdom is reflected and manifested.... Man is said to be the glory of God 1 corinthians 11:7 7 A man ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and [b]glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. The point is clear.....we can be called Gods attributes does not mean we are Gods inherent attributes.... That is why I asked you.. Since man is the glory of God just as Jesus is wisdom of God,was there ever a time God was without his glory before he created man(which is his glory)??.... I am presenting your own case to you... I want you to stop thinking of wisdom in proverbs 8:22 as Gods inherent wisdom.... benalvino: What you should ask your olodo self is:: Was the man who is the power of God created??.... Remember Jesus is called the power of God...in your mind you were thinking how could God have been without his power if Jesus(the power of God) was created or how could he have been without wisdom until he created wisdom(which is Jesus,the wisdom of God)..... The examples I have coined is to teach you when to differentiate Gods inherent attributes from when Gods attributes are seen through his vendors which he created... Gods inherent wisdom and power and glory which he used in creation is different from the wisdom,power and glory we have considered that were created..... Gbam!!!!.... benalvino: And from scriptures you have seen that his son was with him when creation of the world was taking place... And I have told you a million times that creation is attributed solely to the Father because it is from him(source) that all things came into existence..... God created Jesus and every other thing,even though he used his son as his vendor in creation.... John 17:5 and proverbs 8:29-31 shows that Jesus was beside God before the world was created.... benalvino: Why should I ask them??....when they rightly rendered qanah contextually to mean create by virtue of the fact that creation is the subject..... Ask the renderings that adopted possess in a creation scenario.. benalvino: God created his firstborn son that is termed wisdom of God.... Proverbs have clearly shown the wisdom under consideration had a beginning... So it is definitly not Gods inherent wisdom... benalvino: God cannot create his attribute,but he created man which is his attribute...right or wrong??..... You have to grow past this level you are if not you would remain stagnant.... benalvino: And 1 corinthians 8:6,colossians 1:15-16.proverbs 8:29-31 and john 17:5 shows there was somebody.... His son that was created by the Father,that was the Fathers vendor,that was beside the Father..... The creator of all is whom all glory goes to and so the Father remains the one creator who created the son and all of us........ We are all vendors and vessels of God... He remains one and has no equal.... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by ijawkid(m): 9:37am On Jul 08, 2013 |
benalvino: I just answered your jejune questions... and please don't shy away from bara,the word you love so much...the word which you thought meant just one thing and isn't a word that contexts determines.... I hope you learned a thing or two from the exposition... Just not long ago you were yapping that qanah can never mean creation in a creation subject... Now look at bara up there..... Thank you... And this might be my last post.... It is obvious I have been wasting so much time trying to prove a simple truth that is glaring..... |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 11:50am On Jul 08, 2013 |
And as you are daft you still can't differentiate between wisdom which is created in proverbs and Gods inherent wisdom...until you do that then your eyes would be clear....as yall can see all he does is to call me foolish all the names in the world because i don't buy his God create wisdom but he has an original wisdom that is uncreated... I am not surprise that you call me foolish or silly or whatever... it doesnt make your points right even. Man is said to be the glory of GodI have showed you that man the heavens and earth reflects Gods glory... the source is eternal and uncreated... you are not talking about the creation of Glory but you are saying wisdom is a creation therefore your statement is void. man in the image of God doesn't mean God created his own image... your statement is so void. The point is clear.....we can be called Gods attributes does not mean we are Gods inherent attributeshumans shows the attribute of God doesn't mean he created that attribute... God Found is powers through wisdom and his thrones all are with his wisdom and understanding... that's why throne Jesus all powers and thrones everything came to be through him... there is not another wisdom here that God kept in saving box... the wisdom of God was never created. So man is the glory of God didn't say God created Glory but it says he created man which displays his glory show me where God's inherited wisdom is Used for anything concerning creation? And from scriptures you have seen that his son was with him when creation of the world was taking place...By this there is contradictions and this is why... God created Jesus(wisdom) God and Jesus = 2 one angel the other God... God created with Jesus and without Jesus God did not create the heaven and earth... this means there 2 were crucial in creation now Isaiah 40:13 Malachi 2:10" has not one God created us" there are many other verses that says God alone created everything by him self and no one was there except he uses his Wisdom... you see? He uses his wisdom Just as you use your words... If Jesus was an angel this verses that says God alone created everything wont be here... Proverbs 3:19 the Lord created by his wisdom and understanding... I dont know if this is the inherited wisdom you invent or the one he created like you said... But all wisdom comes from one Source God... Jeremiah 10:12 It is he who made the earth by his power, who established the world by his wisdom, and by his understanding stretched out the heavens. back to creation you said 2 created God and angel... trinitarians says One created... which is God... and He uses his wisdom/word to create... John 1:1-4 colossians... yet in some passage it says God alone created heaven and earth and non was beside him... What does this tell you about wisdom and the Word? If God uses his wisdom is it not right to say he did everyone and no one Gave him advice? but if he uses an angel then there is a problem... So you tell me why the bible is contradicting itself once again my your modern day Arianism... Why should I ask them??....when they rightly rendered qanah contextually to mean create by virtue of the fact that creation is the subject.....ask the renderings that adopted possess in a creation scenario.[size=18pt]Bias[/size] God created his firstborn son that is termed wisdom of God.... Proverbs have clearly shown the wisdom under consideration had a beginning...So it is definitly not Gods inherent wisdom...so what about the other wisdom that God puts on saving box... if wisdom already exist why will God create something called wisdom? where did the bible talk about the original wisdom? why did God create wisdom and give wisdom the wisdom to create? you said God gave Jesus ability to create(not biblical) God cannot create his attribute,but he created man which is his attribute...right or wrong??..... You have to grow past this level you are if not you would remain stagnantthis sir has shot you in the foot... God cant create his attribute but he created his attribute which is a man(very silly) you saying he cant create his attribute but he created his attribute lol. [size=18pt]Comfusion[/size] And 1 corinthians 8:6,colossians 1:15-16.proverbs 8:29-31 and john 17:5 shows there was somebody... His son that was created by the Father,that was the Fathers vendor,that was beside the Father.... The creator of all is whom all glory goes to and so the Father remains the one creator who created the son and all of us........ We are all vendors and vessels of God... He remains one and has no equal....So does this mean Jesus is an angel or Gods wisdom? tell me is it all of the above? which was with him from the beginning? indeed all this verses you provided shows that Jesus was with the father... and he did all creation through the son... so in other words... without the wisdom of God nothing was made and without the Word nothing was made... and the whole universe consist because of his wisdom(Jesus) this clearly is telling that Jesus is God and not an angel or man like you believe... but he is the wisdom of God... thats why no one was with God when he created everything... this doesnt answer the question when the bible says One God created us all... By your beliefs one God and angel created us all... whether you use vendor talk or not... the number of creators are still 2... try and answer it. just try. Make sure the bible doesnt contradict it self saying an angel was beside the father during creation or God made the world through an angel only for the bible to still say no one was with the God that him alone created everything... So its up to you to try again because your vendor talk still sum up to 2 and not one. Like your cited verse proves that Jesus was there... I agree but am saying that Jesus was there are God's eternal wisdom and the bible teaches that... it says No one was there with him... you say someone was there and that some one is ANGEL which means 2 people take part... so God cant say he did it all by him self and no one was there... EXCEPT God's wisdom was there which is God him self... Like the Word is God.... Am making sure you answer this questions so i present them in different way [size=14pt]Isaiah 45:12 I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded. Isaiah 42:24 Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; Jeremiah 10:12 But God made the earth by his power; he founded the world by his wisdom and stretched out the heavens by his understanding. job 8:9 Which alone spreadeth out the heavens, and treadeth upon the waves of the sea. Isaiah 48:13 My own hand laid the foundations of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I summon them, they all stand up together.[/size] And look your vendor talk has not yet explained this... I want to know when God use angel to create the world... and i want to know why you think His wisdom is not God... because if so that means the bible is lying that God alone created the heaven and earth... John 1:1 says the word is God... here is Your biggest problem... when you try to say the Word or wisdom was created then the contradiction mounts... 1 Like |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 1:31pm On Jul 08, 2013 |
P.S Josh 17:15 And Joshua answered Josh 17:18 But the mountain shall be Ezek 23: 47 And the company shall When you check the interlinear you will realize that the word bara is not in that scriptures. dont know what bible you are quoting from you cant insert words that are not in the hebrew... the hebrew word for Cut [down] is ū·ḇā·rê... I dont know what you are trying to do. But qanah is acquire, get, possess, create. in is in the text or scriptures i used as examples... whereas you bring scriptures that doesnt have bara as cut trying to say bara is there because bara may also means cut... this is wrong. ū·ḇā·rê is there not bara... Bring scripture that actually renders bara as Cut then we will know. |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 5:17pm On Jul 08, 2013 |
ijawkid:the truth like Jesus is a created angel? truth like how he liked to his disciples that he is not a spirit whereas he is a spirit? truth like satan is Godlike and Divine? or are you going to say God's glory shine on satan too? what have you proven? aside from supporting the arian controversy... do you know that they Translated created into that verse to make sure they use it to support their claim that Jesus was created? in doing so do you see all the questions that arise? and all the contradiction that magnet you? truth about God giving wisdom the wisdom to create like you discuss with desika? which truth have you proven? |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by BERNIMOORE: 7:01pm On Jul 08, 2013 |
benalvino; im dying with laughter all day long while going through your post full of BIG BIG contradictions which really exposes bare the kind of confused beign trinitarians are; in page 23, just two post before this,(im tagging that post next as 1(#d) here is what you said about the 'new jerusalem' in affirmation; you said;'new Jerusalem is the bride of Christ... it is the church... new Jerusalem is the bride Okay and Jesus is the Groom' see that 1(#d); benalvino: new Jerusalem is the bride of Christ... it is the church... new Jerusalem is the bride Okay and Jesus is the Groom. you easily misunderstood that verse... now, in your usual way of 'code-switching' you changed that outrightly on this particular page in your post im tagging 1(#e), that ; 'The New Jerusalem is not the church, but it takes on the church’s characteristics. In his vision of the end of the age, the Apostle John sees the city coming down from heaven adorned “as a bride,” meaning that the inhabitants of the city, the redeemed of the Lord, will be holy and pure, wearing white garments of holiness and righteousness. Some have misinterpreted verse 9 to mean the holy city is the bride of Christ, but that cannot be because Christ died for His people, not for a city' see it 1(#e) ; benalvino: At that time, all believers will inhabit the heavenly city known as New Jerusalem, also called “the holy city” in Revelation 21:2 and 10. The New Jerusalem is not the church, but it takes on the church’s characteristics. In his vision of the end of the age, the Apostle John sees the city coming down from heaven adorned “as a bride,” meaning that the inhabitants of the city, the redeemed of the Lord, will be holy and pure, wearing white garments of holiness and righteousness. Some have misinterpreted verse 9 to mean the holy city is the bride of Christ, but that cannot be because Christ died for His people, not for a city. can you see that the insect eating the vegetable is in no other place other than in the vegetable in itself, i have just proved vividly how you are the same insect confusing yourself,benalvino i think that it is only gamblers that codeswitch the way you did, im not saying you are one but, know this God is not of confusion, okay? benalvino:This should answer your question... read the verse and the explanation and dont try to draw me back... now i know why you fear going back,and have exposed that, until you clear the air of this mess.. |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 7:22pm On Jul 08, 2013 |
BERNIMOORE: now, in your usual way of 'code-switching' you changed that outrightly on this particular page in your post im tagging 1(#e), that ; as usual you are trying to put words in my mouth... In my Post that you quote... I said "the New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ in ref to rev... and i also maintained that it is the church..." you are trying to find fault but at the moment you are only making your self look desperate... now from the quote above... and what has this changed really... the point am trying to make still stands... My first understanding shows that the bride is The new Jerusalem... I also know that the church is the bride... now I realized that the prize Christ payed was for us not Jerusalem... and i said the Church will be in the new Jarusalem... so I dont see the big deal here... the point am making still stands. you Got no problem with this... IF you want to talk about contradictions or what ever and leave the point am trying to make fine... but at the end you were schooled that the church is the bride of christ... I still went from point A to B with the contradiction... not a dangerous on like you guys Who teach that [size=28pt]through Jesus God created Jesus...[/size] honestly it has come to this lol... the point was still made.  and [size=28pt]you were schooled [/size] |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by BERNIMOORE: 7:31pm On Jul 08, 2013 |
benalvino the trinity did not say the father is the son... it says the father and son is the one being that is God... when you decide not to take this saying they you will start misquoting me... Now is still stand that the son is subordinate to the father... we are saying the same thing brother if we follow pauls analogy below until trinitarians added another 'clause' bolded above, we are saying the same thing that if the father and son is the one being then husband and wife are the same beign/person or entity; but paul who is well versed in the law knew just what to use to express his analogy which the trinitarians distorted 'clause' above could not fit in; lets see a balanced view of individual analogy paul used; 1 corinthians 11:3 analysed like this, using the individual concept analogy; [size=14pt]husband head of wife; (separate individuals beigns)[/size] as christ head of the church (separate individuals beigns ) as God (father) is[b] the head of[/b] christ (separate individuals beigns) [/size] 1 corinthians 11:3; But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 7:49pm On Jul 08, 2013 |
BERNIMOORE: an what is your point? |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by Enigma(m): 8:19pm On Jul 08, 2013 |
benalvino: ... when you try to say the Word or wisdom was created then the contradiction mounts... Cf. from here https://www.nairaland.com/497445/trinity-doctrine-invented-council-meeting/1#6775459 Enigma: Psalm 33:6By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, And all the host of them by the breath of His mouth. Enigma: To know when Jesus Christ began to exist is to know when God began to be as, somewhat paradoxically, it is to know when God's "word" began to exist. |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by BERNIMOORE: 10:43pm On Jul 08, 2013 |
benalvino an what is your point? my point is that your trinity 'distorts' the bible concepts, it says that 'you and your wife are the same beign and entity in essence (not metaphorial but in reality) 1 Like |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by BERNIMOORE: 10:59pm On Jul 08, 2013 |
benalvino mr teacher benalvino, let me help you fix this again in your affirmation; below you said; benalvino;'the father and son is the one being that is God' what of the third person,the holy spirit? are you saying that it is 'a dual conspiracy'? see your quote, tagged i [ 1 (#f)] the trinity did not say the father is the son... it says the father and son is the one being that is God... when you decide not to take this saying they you will start misquoting me... Now is still stand that the son is subordinate to the father... benalvino;'the father and son is the one being that is God' what of the holy spirit? 1 Like |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by BERNIMOORE: 11:26pm On Jul 08, 2013 |
benalvino: benalvino:as usual you are trying to put words in my mouth... let me showed you what REALLY CHANGED AGAIN just on this page alone, again you code-switched back, im tagging your latest one now on this page as 1(#g) you said "benalvino:the New Jerusalem is the bride of Christ in ref to rev. compare with your contradiction in tagged 1(#e) below; benalvino:'The New Jerusalem is not the church, but it takes on the church’s characteristics. In his vision of the end of the age, the Apostle John sees the city coming down from heaven adorned “as a bride,” meaning that the inhabitants of the city, the redeemed of the Lord, will be holy and pure, wearing white garments of holiness and righteousness. Some have misinterpreted verse 9 to mean the holy city is the bride of Christ, but that cannot be because Christ died for His people, not for a city' (CBB)Confussion Break Bones! 1 Like |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by BERNIMOORE: 11:32pm On Jul 08, 2013 |
benalvino im ready to tag your next post, where you will adjust and say [size=14pt]'in your first understanding' of trinity, 'it was the son and father that is the one God'[/size] but [size=14pt]later realised that the third person 'holy spirit' was among.....[/size] can you see how hard pressed you are now, its because the trinity doctrine is based on lies! anyway im waiting for the adjustment. |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by BERNIMOORE: 11:50pm On Jul 08, 2013 |
benalvino the trinity did not say the father is the son... it says the father and son is the one being that is God if 'the father and son' two entities are the one being that is God, then the entities forming God should not have read 'you alone' read again; Darby Bible Translation That they may know [size=18pt]that thou alone[/size], whose name is Jehovah, art the Most High over all the earth. 1 Like |
| Re: "Firstborn" Does It Mean First Created? Jehovah's Witness! by benalvino(m): 5:49am On Jul 09, 2013 |
BERNIMOORE: benalvinoThe bible says you and your wife becomes one flesh... Its not the trinity that's says it... Get your facts right. |
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