Another verse they will use to show that Jesus is created is Colossians 1:15. Now I can’t seem to find the word “created” in this verse I guess the word Firstborn must mean created (SMH) in
psalms 89:27 new world translation
“27Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn, the most high of the kings of the earth.”

But King David was the lastborn (youngest) son of Jesse so he wasn’t even a firstborn. The bible also tells us that Ephraim was Jehovah God firstborn in
Jeremiah 31:9 new world translation
“9with weeping they will come, and with [their] entreaties for favor I shall bring them. I shall make them walk to torrent valleys of water, in a right way in which they will not be caused to stumble. For I have become to Israel a Father; and as for Ephraim, he is my firstborn.” But Ephraim have an older brother called Manasseh. So even Ephraim wasn’t a firstborn. Furthermore in
Genesis 48:17-19 new world translation
“17When Joseph saw that his father kept his right hand placed on E′phra‧im’s head, it was displeasing to him, and he tried to take hold of his father’s hand to remove it from E′phra‧im’s head to Ma‧nas′seh’s head.18Hence Joseph said to his father: “Not so, my father, because this is the firstborn. Put your right hand on his head.”

Now how can Jehovah God have 3 firstborn? Another question they can’t answer… even when triplets are born there is always a first born even if the children are 10 minutes apart if you are a twin or triplets you know what I mean

In Colossians 1:15-16 JWs believe the father created Jesus, Jesus was the father’s master worker everything was created through Jesus. Let’s read
Colossians 1:15-17 new world translation
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;16because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.17Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, “

you guys can see how this verse contradicts John 1:1-4 “without him nothing came into existence” now look at Verse 17 of Colossians you see how they contradict there self? Anyway I will continue, he created invisible thrones through him and for him. Other bible says everything was created through him and for him. So that means that the throne in Heaven was created by him and for him. But wait oh!! Colossians says he created throne and for
Hebrews 1:8-10 new world translation
.”8But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.”

this is the wahala when the bible is tampered with... Did Jesus created the Father? It says in colossians that he created the thrones now in hebrew it says God is your throne meaning he created the father? Na wao!!!!
Back to Colossians 1:15-18 the bible doesn’t tell us that Jesus was created he is the firstborn of all creations and the firstborn of the dead… in others words he is in charge of all creations and in charge of death. See the meaning of Preemminence = firstborn.

If firstborn means first created that means Jesus was created twice.

Now they will try to use Proverbs 8:22-28 new world translation
22“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.23From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.24When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water.25Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains,26when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land.27When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep,28when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong,”

Let’s identify who the “ME” and “I” is… the first Proverbs chapters 1-9 is identified as wisdom and female pronouns are used (her, she, sister, and woman). In proverbs 7:4 wisdom is a sister and in poverbs 8:12 wisdom lives with shrewdness.
The bible tells us that Christ is the power of God and wisdom of God in
1 Corinthians 1:24 new world translation
“24however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”
Another question comes out was there a time that God was without power? As well as wisdom? Let’s see what
Romans 1:20 says new world translation
“20For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable;”

You see that here His power is eternal but they say he created his wisdom how can you guys be so contradictory? From your bible it clearly shows Gods power is eternal you can see other better translation like the KJV…

going back to proverbs 7:4 wisdom is a female ” Say to wisdom: “You are my sister”; and may you call understanding itself “Kinswoman,” and when they get to chapter 8 they can’t have Jesus as female so they use “it” “Does not wisdom keep calling out, and discernment keep giving forth its voice?2On top of the heights, by the way, at the crossing of the roadways it has stationed itself.3 at the side of the gates, at the mouth of the town, at the going in of the entrances it keeps crying loudly:”

Then in chapter 9 they change it back to a she again see how they do with the bible? “Whoever is inexperienced, let him turn aside here.” Whoever is in want of heart—she has said to him”
In the new world translation proverbs 7:11 (she is boisterous) referring to wisdom. And in chapter 8:1 (its voice) referring to wisdom and in chapter 9:13 wisdom who is a woman is boisterous. Hardly the language one will use for Jesus. JWs will always read Proverbs 8:22-25 but if you also read 26-29 new world translation
“26when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land.27When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep,28when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong,29when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth,”

what I want to know is who is the “HE” in this verse that created the heavens and the foundations of the earth
In Hebrews 1:8-10 new world translation
“8But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.9You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.”10And: “You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands.”

As you can see the father is speaking about the son


Now see the picture at the bottom of this post from their bible the Jehovah there is Jesus when you link it to Hebrew I just quoted.
In psalms 102:24-25 new world translation
” 24I proceeded to say: “O my God, Do not take me off at the half of my days; Your years are throughout all generations. 25Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are the work of your hands.”

It is talking about God… so
proverbs 8:22-28
“22“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.23From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.24When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water.25Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains,26when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land.27When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep,28when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong,” is talking about when Jesus created he used wisdom.

John 3:16 is another verse they will use to show that Jesus is created… now I can’t seem to find the word Created, I guess only begotten must mean Created :p the bible tells us in

Hebrews 11:17 new world translation
“17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac, and the man that had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up [his] only‐begotten [son],”

but we know that Abraham had more than one son, Isaac have an older brother Ismael But Isaac was one of a kind. In Philemon 1:10 new world translation
“I appeal to you for my child Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my imprisonment,”

Paul never had any children so Paul did not create him. Or are you people going to tell me Paul created him?

In Acts 13:33 “33that God has entirely fulfilled it to us their children in that he resurrected Jesus; even as it is written in the second psalm, ‘You are my son, I have become your Father this day.”

Psalms 2:7 “7Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah; He has said to me: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father.”

Other bible translate I have begotten thee… but as you can say this verses clearly states that when God raise Christ is that day he was begotten. As you can also see Jesus was and always exist before he was begotten


Philippians 2:5-11
New International Version (NIV)
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature[a] God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature[b] of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!

true2god: Take it easy man even non-xtains cannot act this way.

benalvino:

haha leave him he is butt hurt... he cant debate so he switch to insult strategy like I give a rat ass... I don't even care. I will him help him insult me.

truthislight:

It is even the atheist that calls and insult Yahweh here and belittles him.
Should that also come from the person you call a "christian" ?

benalvino: mostly people Unitarians like frosbel, ijawkid truthislight will twist verse trying to say that Jesus is created. When we read the bible, the bible is very clear when God create something, the word “Created” is used…
In revelation 3:14 NWT
14“And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,"

They will try to tell you that Jesus is created, Now I can’t seem to find the word “created” in this verse, I guess the Word beginning must mean created that Jesus had a beginning.

The same Greek word is also used revelation 22:13(new world translation).13I am the Al′pha and the O‧me′ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end… Now in this verse it’s talking about the father… Now why is it Ok that the father doesn’t have a beginning but when it talks about Jesus in rev 3:14, Jesus have a beginning? Does rev 22:13 means the father had a beginning and he will have an end? NO!!! The word beginning in Greek is ar-khay’ and it means source or origin this is where we get the word architect from, it means chief builder. An archbishop is head of bishops. The same Greek word is used in
Luke 20:20 NWT
“20And, after observing him closely, they sent out men secretly hired to pretend that they were righteous, in order that they might catch him in speech, so as to turn him over to the government and to the authority of the governor.”

As you can see they translated it as government and the same Greek word is also used in
Romans 8:38 new world translation
“38For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers39”

still they translated it as government and other bibles translate it as ruler. In order words revelation 3:14 Jesus is the head of creation. In John 1:3 the bible says all things were made and came into existence through him; and without him was not even one thing made that was made… Question if without him nothing came into existence how come he came into existence? This is a question they can’t answer :p in the new world translation it reads “the beginning of the creation by God” but in the Greek it says something different it reads “of God” and not “by God” NWT translation wahala.

So in rev 3:14 Jesus is the head of creation of God that means he is the ruler of God creations or the Source of God's creation one of this meaning is through not that it means God created Jesus first.

Another verse they will use to show that Jesus is created is Colossians 1:15. Now I can’t seem to find the word “created” in this verse grin I guess the word Firstborn must mean created (SMH) in
psalms 89:27 new world translation
“27Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn, the most high of the kings of the earth.”

But King David was the lastborn (youngest) son of Jesse so he wasn’t even a firstborn. The bible also tells us that Ephraim was Jehovah God firstborn in
Jeremiah 31:9 new world translation
“9with weeping they will come, and with [their] entreaties for favor I shall bring them. I shall make them walk to torrent valleys of water, in a right way in which they will not be caused to stumble. For I have become to Israel a Father; and as for Ephraim, he is my firstborn.” But Ephraim have an older brother called Manasseh. So even Ephraim wasn’t a firstborn. Furthermore in
Genesis 48:17-19 new world translation
“17When Joseph saw that his father kept his right hand placed on E′phra‧im’s head, it was displeasing to him, and he tried to take hold of his father’s hand to remove it from E′phra‧im’s head to Ma‧nas′seh’s head.18Hence Joseph said to his father: “Not so, my father, because this is the firstborn. Put your right hand on his head.”

Now how can Jehovah God have 3 firstborn? Another question they can’t answer… even when triplets are born there is always a first born even if the children are 10 minutes apart if you are a twin or triplets you know what I mean grin

In Colossians 1:15-16 JWs believe the father created Jesus, Jesus was the father’s master worker everything was created through Jesus. Let’s read
Colossians 1:15-17 new world translation
15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation;16because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.17Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, “

you guys can see how this verse contradicts John 1:1-4 “without him nothing came into existence” now look at Verse 17 of Colossians you see how they contradict there self? Anyway I will continue, he created invisible thrones through him and for him. Other bible says everything was created through him and for him. So that means that the throne in Heaven was created by him and for him. But wait oh!! Colossians says he created throne and for
Hebrews 1:8-10 new world translation
.”8But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.”

this is the wahala when the bible is tampered with... Did Jesus created the Father? It says in colossians that he created the thrones now in hebrew it says God is your throne meaning he created the father? Na wao!!!!
Back to Colossians 1:15-18 the bible doesn’t tell us that Jesus was created he is the firstborn of all creations and the firstborn of the dead… in others words he is in charge of all creations and in charge of death. See the meaning of Preemminence = firstborn.

If firstborn means first created that means Jesus was created twice.

Now they will try to use Proverbs 8:22-28 new world translation
22“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.23From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.24When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water.25Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains,26when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land.27When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep,28when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong,”

Let’s identify who the “ME” and “I” is… the first Proverbs chapters 1-9 is identified as wisdom and female pronouns are used (her, she, sister, and woman). In proverbs 7:4 wisdom is a sister and in poverbs 8:12 wisdom lives with shrewdness.
The bible tells us that Christ is the power of God and wisdom of God in
1 Corinthians 1:24 new world translation
“24however, to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”
Another question comes out was there a time that God was without power? As well as wisdom? Let’s see what
Romans 1:20 says new world translation
“20For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation onward, because they are perceived by the things made, even his eternal power and Godship, so that they are inexcusable;”

You see that here His power is eternal but they say he created his wisdom how can you guys be so contradictory? From your bible it clearly shows Gods power is eternal you can see other better translation like the KJV…

going back to proverbs 7:4 wisdom is a female ” Say to wisdom: “You are my sister”; and may you call understanding itself “Kinswoman,” and when they get to chapter 8 they can’t have Jesus as female so they use “it” “Does not wisdom keep calling out, and discernment keep giving forth its voice?2On top of the heights, by the way, at the crossing of the roadways it has stationed itself.3 at the side of the gates, at the mouth of the town, at the going in of the entrances it keeps crying loudly:”

Then in chapter 9 they change it back to a she again see how they do with the bible? “Whoever is inexperienced, let him turn aside here.” Whoever is in want of heart—she has said to him”
In the new world translation proverbs 7:11 (she is boisterous) referring to wisdom. And in chapter 8:1 (its voice) referring to wisdom and in chapter 9:13 wisdom who is a woman is boisterous. Hardly the language one will use for Jesus. JWs will always read Proverbs 8:22-25 but if you also read 26-29 new world translation
“26when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land.27When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep,28when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong,29when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth,”

what I want to know is who is the “HE” in this verse that created the heavens and the foundations of the earth huh huh
In Hebrews 1:8-10 new world translation
“8But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.9You loved righteousness, and you hated lawlessness. That is why God, your God, anointed you with [the] oil of exultation more than your partners.”10And: “You at [the] beginning, O Lord, laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are [the] works of your hands.”

As you can see the father is speaking about the son


Now see the picture at the bottom of this post from their bible the Jehovah there is Jesus when you link it to Hebrew I just quoted.
In psalms 102:24-25 new world translation
” 24I proceeded to say: “O my God, Do not take me off at the half of my days; Your years are throughout all generations. 25Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth itself, and the heavens are the work of your hands.”

It is talking about God… so
proverbs 8:22-28
“22“Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago.23From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth.24When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water.25Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains,26when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land.27When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep,28when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong,” is talking about when Jesus created he used wisdom.

John 3:16 is another verse they will use to show that Jesus is created… now I can’t seem to find the word Created, I guess only begotten must mean Created :p the bible tells us in

Hebrews 11:17 new world translation
“17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac, and the man that had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up [his] only‐begotten [son],”

but we know that Abraham had more than one son, Isaac have an older brother Ismael But Isaac was one of a kind. In Philemon 1:10 new world translation
“I appeal to you for my child Onesimus, whom I have begotten in my imprisonment,”

Paul never had any children so Paul did not create him. Or are you people going to tell me Paul created him?

In Acts 13:33 “33that God has entirely fulfilled it to us their children in that he resurrected Jesus; even as it is written in the second psalm, ‘You are my son, I have become your Father this day.”

Psalms 2:7 “7Let me refer to the decree of Jehovah; He has said to me: “You are my son; I, today, I have become your father.”

Other bible translate I have begotten thee… but as you can say this verses clearly states that when God raise Christ is that day he was begotten. As you can also see Jesus was and always exist before he was begotten


Philippians 2:5-11
New International Version (NIV)
5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature[a] God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage; 7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature[b] of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—even death on a cross!

true2god: Thank u for this, i have learnt a lot afta readin it.

after he tried to say ijawkid wasn't telling people that Jesus is an angel from his own link he put on here i ask him to read it again when ijawkid was saying what if jesus and that angel are equal then he admitted that jesus is michael an angel.

BERNIMOORE: @itsfacts



did i say that ijawkid wasn't telling people that Jesus is an angel? no, im only telling you that im not aware of that, and that does not mean that im denying 'on behalf of ijawkid' i trust him, okay? until you prove otherwise

and then you also force the ownership of a tread link on me, but the link i posted wasnt my own link, but it was from one 'manmustwac'(check again)

itsfacts, im back here again, im almost through with my busy schedule during the busy week,i got your time now, and here are one of your lies,

i said that 'im not aware' until you prove, but you failed! but then, that does not change what i belief, im talking about myself, that jesus is the archangel micheal, and can defend it on my own.

Tank God dat u have 'stylishly' admitted using multiple ID's on nairaland after your original ID 'BARRISTER' was badly mutilated cos of ur obvios deception.

And now u hav even admitted dat he's ur 'elder' broda. Maybe the next ID u will create, when BERNIMORE is also mutilated will dat of C Ronaldo or Lionel Messi. 'BARRISTER' keep deceiving ursef.

we read the bible, the bible is very clear when God create something, the word “Created” is used…
In revelation 3:14 NWT
14“And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,"

They will try to tell you that Jesus is created, Now I can’t seem to find the word “created” in this verse, I guess the Word beginning must mean created that Jesus had a beginning.

The same Greek word is also used revelation 22:13(new world translation).13I am the Al′pha and the O‧me′ga, the first and the last, the beginning and the end… Now in this verse it’s talking about the father… Now why is it Ok that the father doesn’t have a beginning but when it talks about Jesus in rev 3:14, Jesus have a beginning? Does rev 22:13 means the father had a beginning and he will have an end? NO!!! The word beginning in Greek is ar-khay’ and it means source or origin this is where we get the word architect from, it means chief builder. An archbishop is head of bishops.

The same Greek word is used in
Luke 20:20 NWT
“20And, after observing him closely, they sent out men secretly hired to pretend that they were righteous, in order that they might catch him in speech, so as to turn him over to the government and to the authority of the governor.”

As you can see they translated it as government and the same Greek word is also used in
Romans 8:38 new world translation
“38For I am convinced that neither death nor life nor angels nor governments nor things now here nor things to come nor powers39”

still they translated it as government and other bibles translate it as ruler.

In John 1:3 the bible says all things were made and came into existence through him;

and without him was not even one thing made that was made… Question if without him nothing came into existence how come he came into existence?

This is a question they can’t answer

:p in the new world translation it reads “the beginning of the creation by God” but in the Greek it says something different it reads “of God” and not “by God” NWT translation wahala.

benalvino:

not really watchtower watchtower or what ever... am just showing you the fact you should clap for me not persecute me... now you have left firstborn which is the discussion at hand and bringing beginning of creation which is not why I wrote this... for now could we stand inline with the topic?

I never a proud person am only pointing out the truth and the motive behind the insertion of other in the bible so that it changes the meaning to firstborn. If anything am the one being sincere here because I told you to rebuttal but you didn't all you did was condemn me for putting out such post.

I see how things are beginning to look like you are radicalize, one mention of watchtower if its not good you persecute that is never the case bro your religion is what you believe in you to condemn people for saying their point of view. trying to say am proud because I am explaining something to you doesn't count.

its not about who made him the firstborn its about firstborn doesn't mean first created. that's the whole point. I don't see how Jesus could be God's firstborn and some other people including david and israel at the same time, it just doesn't make sense no matter how you look at it. if Jesus was firstborn as in first created are you telling me he was created 2 times?

I don't care how you address the father... him and Jesus are coeternal the are before all things. the author of the bible focused on Jesus.

Israel and david are not the beginning, instead david was preeminent(firstborn) so is Israel. you should be the one answering that question

its not about JWs... its about the truth and you see JW there because that is what they believe and teach. I didn't maligning or do anything but was pointing out the insincerity done to that verse to support their doctrines. when you see Catholics or Trinitarians even RCCG do something barbaric don't you say something concerning them? have you never told me that what I believe is pagan etc? I never got bitter but I openly accept your point of view and told you why I believe something to be different.

am not maligning anything just explaining and this is a debate I wanted you to rebuttal but you didn't instead get mad at me. am sorry if that hurts you and I will talk about JWs like this again if you don't like it.

why I open this thread is because the other one has become too generic. your fellow JWs come when I tell them the discussion has gone pass the argument they will start calling me lazy or name calling me just because I said they should go back in the thread and read what we have said concerning this issue. there is nothing wrong if I hope this the title speaks why I opened this to clear the firstborn issue.

maximunimpact:

If u ar d type dat listens 2 advice, u cud av long quited setting up blind arguement against wat is truth. I can see u ar absessede with discrediting evrytin ''watchtower'' , how abt tell roman catholics 2 stop bowin to images, or purgatory dogma, as a penticostal have u dealt wit ur fake speaking in tongues and prophesies? Or I guess all u see is wrong in other ppls belive, my dear pls sort ursef out 1st, becos u are not even sure if ur beliv is d right one or if u are saved 4 dat matter!

BERNIMOORE: @ benalvino



you mean that you can’t seem to find the word “created” in this verse

okay, you mean that you breezed through the whole verse and could not find the greek meanings to the last words 'of the creation by God' see the greek renderings of 'creation':

2937. ktisis, ktis'-is; from G2936; original formation (prop. the act; by impl. the thing, lit. or fig.):--building, creation, [size=14pt]creature,[/size] ordinance.

2936. ktizo, ktid'-zo; prob. akin to G2932 (through the idea of the proprietorship of the manufacturer); to fabricate, i.e. found (form originally):--[size=14pt]create[/size], Creator, make.



THE BEGINNING 746. arche, ar-khay'; from G756; (prop. abstr.) a commencement, or (concr.) chief (in various [size=14pt]applications of order, time, place or rank[/size]):--beginning, corner, (at the, the) first (estate), magistrate, power, principality, principle, rule.

arche, ar-khay, as you can see ar-khay means 'a commencement, or chief as in various applications of order relating to time,place or rank,so 'the beginning' in this Rev 3:14 does not stand alone but relates to ' the creation by God' hence 2936 and 2937 above also suggests 'create' or 'creature' so jesus ranked among first of Gods creation





as i have discussed earlier, the the greek word ar-khay was used and depends on the last word 'of Gods creation' in Rev 3:14 but

in luke 20:20 and romans 8:38 above, they were used 'independently'








yes, God instructs him to create things



simple, God marked jesus as the beggining of his creation begining with when the earth and mountains were created (prov 8:22-24),

'not one thing' here does not mean that he is responsible for all creation, let me site an example:

when God the father of christ authorise that 'all things' be put under christ, many said that God was among 'everything' under christ but see the exoneration

1 Corinthians 15:27

For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. so, you are making a case of 'not even one thing' and im making a parrallel case of 'everything' but then 'there still remain exception' okay?





as you can see the analogy above, it is cheap!



“of God” or “by God” its same thing,

lets prove that not even by NWT;

1 Corinthians 15:27-28
NIV
27 For he “has put everything under his feet.”[a] Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. 28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

if the son is beign made subject to the person that put all things under him, then we can rightly say that he was also made 'a subject by God' based on 1 corinthians above, okay?

benalvino:

I dont discredit watchtower the said people am discussing with their believes comes from the watchtower... Some of them know me very well and they know my opinion about catholic church the fact is when people want to learn or know the truth they should listen from both parties and Paul said we should test the spirit. The bible says U R condemned if you add to Gods word... Problem is why did they add words so their doctrine will sound better? What I did was to speak the truth and just like other JWs you can't stand someone seeing faults in your organization. I know about Muslims Mormons JW christaindelphians I try to learn the beliefs of all religion and their origin it is not a badthing but a good thing so let me be... Am not here to deacredit am just speaking the truth. JWs I know condemn other religion in a heartbeat am just pointing out my findings and insincerity from them.

benalvino:

I dont discredit watchtower the said people am discussing with their believes comes from the watchtower... Some of them know me very well and they know my opinion about catholic church the fact is when people want to learn or know the truth they should listen from both parties and Paul said we should test the spirit. The bible says U R condemned if you add to Gods word... Problem is why did they add words so their doctrine will sound better? What I did was to speak the truth and just like other JWs you can't stand someone seeing faults in your organization. I know about Muslims Mormons JW christaindelphians I try to learn the beliefs of all religion and their origin it is not a badthing but a good thing so let me be... Am not here to deacredit am just speaking the truth. JWs I know condemn other religion in a heartbeat am just pointing out my findings and insincerity from them.

If Jesus is a creature he is a thing and the bible made it clear not a single thing came into existence without the word. The thing is if he is a creature then he came into existence without him...

maximunimpact:





U just said ''point out the insincerity frm them''? I tell you what, watchtower believe is the most sincere doctrine a xtian can have, most of the belive dat churches av are pegan in origin and in practice, d bible is very clear abt d fact dat JESUS is the SON OF GOD, not ''GOD THE SON'' these two terms doesn't relate in any sense, in a nutshell, ur topic is all abt proving dat Christ is GOD THE SON! Dat u can nva find in the scriptures! So if dat is d core of ur beliv, where den is ur sinerity? Where is d truth? As SON OF GOD, it means God created Christ just as Adam and other spirit sons of God where created, the difference lies in d fact dat while we are all sons of God, Christ the only Son directly created by God, THE FIRST BORN OF ALL CREATION, THE BEGININING OF ALL CREATION BY GOD! All diz terms are clearly defined in d scriptures. If u claim u are pointing out insincerity in dis belive, u ar simply turning a blind eye 2 a glaring TRUTH!

BERNIMOORE: @benalvino



i have destroyed the argument above, using 1 Corinthians 15:27;

For[b] he (God) "has put everything under his (christ) feet[/b]." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him (christ), it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

# if God himself, who put everything under Christ is not included, in 'everything' mentioned in that context,cant you see that God is greater and separate from christ in the sense that God can exercise his power on christ, while christ cannot exercise his power on God, God is EXCLUDED!

the same thing goes for Colossians 1:15-17

King James Version (KJV)
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
'All things' as used in colossians above does not mean absolutely that there are no exceptions, definately there must be exceptions if we allude the way that the word, everything and 'all things' are used in these passage to that of 1 cor 28 above, we need to reconcile not part of the bible,but the whole truth that flows in it.
and
can you honestly see that?



sorry, we cant chose to use ruler [/i]or [i]chief here, because the case of the romans and luke 20:20 are different besides, the greek word ar-khay has wide varieties of options as i have posted them above it begins with G746-G756 in the lexicon, so as you can see we have passed the issue of sticking to a particular bible not even NWT but raw usage of the greek words(used in the original manuscript) now we can now honestly connect the meaning that suites the passage without contradiction.

everything I say is not attack but aid to the discussion here. I am pointing out evidence of contradiction and their attempt to eliminate the contradiction by adding words to the bible

what a joke... very bad excuse I may say. when there is an exception the bible doesn't forget to put it... using the verse as an excuse is a shame.... you guys are writing to the bible. do want to say they forget to put [other]? lmao that is a very bad excuse. the contradiction stands.

BERNIMOORE: @benalvino



i have shown you 10 bibles that are different on the issue of additions that KJV did concerning 1 john 5:8 on page 8 of this tread, you dont see anything wrong with that.

now can you show me just two different bibles that are 'word for word'? so that we can see if you are correct, i have ask before, but you dont seem to give answer

BERNIMOORE:

you are defeated! i was expecting a further detailed argument using bible verses to further prove your point, it only exposes you guys clinging only to some few bible verses that seems to suite your views, but when one put up the courage to reconcile using the bible verses, you flare. instead of talking of joke here, pls come on with more superior argument to win me to your side, okay.

BERNIMOORE: @benalvino

see why i can boast of winning this argument;

1 Corinthians 15:27;

For he (God) "has put everything under his (christ) feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him (christ), it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.

# if God himself, who put everything under Christ is not included, in 'everything' mentioned in that context,cant you see that the 'word' although is a God in (john 1:1-4)but is different,and a subject, different from God the father and are distinct an not the same in the sense that 1 cor 15:27 above says[size=14pt] "it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ".[/size]

try and see the relationship clearly here, my brother try and move on, or show me a strong counter proof.

benalvino:
Some of them know me very well and they know my opinion

truthislight:

^^^

I dont know you starting from Adam!

philipians 2:6 kjv
Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,

7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross. 9 Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,

he became man for me and you... he dropped is deity so become ordinary man... so because of that God will exalt him above all things. so Jesus was God then dropped it and become a man. and he is Gonna get back to the place he was before... at the right hand of GOD.

so therefore it should have said it is clear that it doesn't include Jesus him self who created everything...

BERNIMOORE:

lets see other translations;

New International Version (©2011)
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
New Living Translation (©2007)
Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to.

English Standard Version (©2001)
who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,


king james version was the only one giving a different view here but it changes nothing;
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

Holman Christian Standard Bible (©2009)
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God as something to be used for His own advantage.



benalvino, [size=14pt]give an honest answer here, who was jesus obedient to (bolded) is it himself, or a superior?
[/size]



why does he need another God to exault him? answer pls



why are you going back? we have settled the issue of (everything/all things) as used in the context as relates to jesus to still have exceptions using 1 cor above, maybe you accept or not is your right, but my job is to defend and further defend the truth here.