JMAN05: Pls carefully select my comments above. they reoccurred. am still learning how to use the font tools here.

Tgirl4real: @ Jesusislord and Mosthigh of NL, I think I am beginning to understand what you saying in Acts 15: 21. When they meet to fellowship, what they read is the Holy scriptures - Torah.

I believe it's in line with Paul's instructions to Timothy in his letters. In 2Tim 3: 16, they didn't have the bible as we have it now, so the scriptures he is referring to is the torah.

Also, he asked them to read scriptures in 1Tim 4:13-16, def old testament cos they didn't have the epistles as we have it now. It's these letters, reports that are combined together as the new testament.

hmm....I seriously blame those who pass things down to us.

I have questions though, but I will keep them to myself for now.

JesusisLord85:

Ok lets look at Acts 15 because I keep getting questions on this, and some of your questions are on this:

JesusisLord85:

Acts 15:19-22 "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren."


A carnal mind will read this and conclude that it proves that there are only four rules for Gentiles coming into the faith, to obey. Clearly, the whole Torah was not forced on the Gentiles all at once. The did not mention steal, kill, adultery, so obviously, there is more to this. Did God force the whole Torah on the Israelites at once? Was it not over a period of time? Here, they are trying to say that the Gentiles would learn the Torah over time, hearing it each week in the synagogues.

4 As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one. 5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)

9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumbling block to them that are weak. 10 For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol's temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;

JesusisLord85:

Acts 15:21 "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."


Why do you people ignore this key verse in the passage? I bet when many read it they gloss over it, thinking, what has Torah being taught each week in synagogues have to do with Gentiles. And, importantly, why is it mentioned alongside four of the many laws? As I keep repeating on this forum, it is because they would learn it as the began to fellowship in the synagogue alongside their Jewish brethren. Only after pointing out the Gentiles would learn Torah weekly "did it please the apostles and elders" (verse 22) to send this letter out.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

JesusisLord85:

Acts 15:5-11 "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

Before jumping to gentile conclusions, lets approach this passage like I approached Galatians for you.
1. Who demanded conversion by circumcision and observing the law of Moses?
2. How did this group define the ‘law’
3. What was the response of the apostles to this particular group of gentlemen, and why
4. What do OTHER passages in scripture teach us about observing the law for gentiles and the Israelites

Please be patient and follow

JesusisLord85:

God is unchanging. Even Jesus said heaven and earth will pass away before one stroke from the Torah/Law (Yahweh’s instructions) be removed.
Matthew 5:17-18
“17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “

I just quoted Jesus oh! Even if you {falsely} interpret Paul to teach a contrary message, then you ought to reject it because Jesus is Lord. But as many know, Paul has been widely misunderstood.

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Ephesians 3: 1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. 8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; 9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Galatians 1:11 But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. 12 For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ

JesusisLord85:

We also know that Jesus considered the "traditions of the elders" not equal to written Torah. Often times the oral tradition violated the written Torah (Mark 7:9).
Matthew 15:2-3
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

This verse gives real insight into the people that the apostles are confronting. Would they even be having this debate if the concern was the written Torah, the word of God? Of course not.

JesusisLord85:

Like Christ, the apostles upheld written Torah but rebuked those advocates of legalism, i.e. oral law. Basically, members of Pharisaic Judaism.

JesusisLord85:

So, to answer the first question, it is the Pharisees who are making the demands mentioned in Acts 15:5. The passage is dealing with whether the Gentiles needed to convert according to Pharisaic traditions, i.e. become proselytes to Pharisaic Judaism. How can they be talking about messianic Judaism, Jesus just spent his time teaching the Jews the scriptures, and now you’re saying they do away with all that? That is absurd.
We already know by checking other scriptures that Gentiles could be saved without going through the rituals of becoming a proselyte - the belief of Cornelius and his family confirms this (Acts 10).
To us, some 2000 years later circumcision is just one law out of the 613 laws in Torah. However, from the 1st century Pharisaic perspective, circumcision was the means by which one became a proselyte. (Notice I am not even talking about conversion to Christianity here. Jesus didn't even know what a Christian was. Chei.) That is why this ritual is being singled out as a demand apart from its inclusion in the Torah. Generally obeying the law is not the issue, this passage is bothered with how the Gentiles convert, and the requirements thereof.
Notice they didn’t complain that the Gentiles don’t keep kosher and the law, or the Sabbath and the law. The law already includes these things. It is singled out because it is what they consider to be the rites of passage to becoming a proselyte to Pharisaic Judaism.

It might sound absurd that circumcision had become a conversion ritual by the Pharisees, but today, baptism is sometimes misused as a means of joining a particular church. For example me refusing to be baptised in the Mormon church is my rejection of Mormonism, and NOT baptism per se!

The apostles rejected the Pharisaic demand that the Gentiles should undergo the Pharisaic circumcision ritual, AND NOT circumcision itself, that was not the debate. Why do you people imagine a vain thing?

At that time, the gospel was being received by Gentiles without them having to go through the conversion ritual of the Pharisees. God accepted the Gentiles as they were, hence he "made no distinction between us and them" (Acts 15:9).

"Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

JesusisLord85:

Side note: can Mr two-gospel shdemidemi explain how this Jew was preaching a gospel to the Gentiles that God had lead him to do? According to you, only Paul knew the full truth and that truth was given to the gentiles. lol

JesusisLord85:

Peter argued against the Pharisees, warning not to put a yoke on the new believers, a yoke neither they nor their fathers could bear; this yoke is the Pharisaic oral tradition. How can Peter be teaching that the commandments of God is bondage? That would be blasphemy!. Jesus said:

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

Now doesn’t that sound more like the yoke Peter is alluding to? The yoke many of you have blasphemously claimed is the very word of God?

See what Jesus also says to the Pharisees:
Mattew 23:15
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

So we can see that the oral tradition of the Pharisees is a burden, NOT the commandments of the Most High God. God’s way is freedom, contrary to what many of you teach here:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach freedom to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." Luke 4:18,19
This echos Isaiah 61:1 (please check, I'm trying to keep this tight, it is late)

Liberty is defined in Psalms 119:44-45
"So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts."

Leviticus 26:13
"I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright."

How can you say God brought them out of bondage, and gave them the instructions (his word, his Torah), which you also define as bondage? The traditions of man is the bondage.

Galatians 3:19 Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one. 21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

JesusisLord85:

Ok so let’s look at the demand by the Pharisees that the Gentiles keep the Law of Moses. To the Pharisees, the Law of Moses means both the written word (Torah) and the oral Torah (their traditions) – remember their dialogue with Jesus in Matthew 15:2-3. These people considered them equal. So when they say the Gentiles should keep the Law of Moses, they are not making any distinction between their traditions and the written Torah. Simple enough.

Let’s not forget that the Gentile’s were given four ‘starter laws’, and were to learn the rest of the law each week in the synagogues. And we know that these laws come from the Torah. Obviously, the apostles were not making up a new set of laws.
"But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood."

I will go into detail why these are specifically mentioned as things the gentiles must adhere to immediately. That will come tomorrow. Early start tomorrow.

Shalom

Galatians 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

Colosians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

DrummaBoy: Mr Jesusislord85 I request that you refer to your thread on Galatians, I have a question there for you.

Thanks.

Well, apparently, I do not subscribe to the four laws concept you just suggested at all. In fact I believe that the meeeting in Jerusalem should have ended with the no law concept that Paul in his epistles taught (Galatians 5:18b; 23b) but the three laws were a cop out to pacify those who were of the circumcision because, this meeting holding in Jerusalem, they were predominant and the like Demi argues, Apostle James and Peter themselves were not fully removed from the Judaistic thinking and thus the need to leave those four laws. Of the four, we see that Paul debunked the concept of offering to idols in 1 Cor 8

JesusisLord85:
I see you have many questions. I cannot attend to you only. I will reveal the truth slowly, to all at the same time. Why will I spend 90% of my time teaching those whose ears are shut up?
Let me go to the lost sheep.

JesusisLord85:

I see you have many questions. I cannot attend to you only. I will
reveal the truth slowly, to all at the same time. Why will I spend 90%
of my time teaching those whose ears are shut up?
Let me go to the lost sheep.

DrummaBoy:

If U can supply expose on each of those scriptures I enumerated, even quoting the Torah and OT, to defend this Judaism position of yours then U have an argument. If not keep these doctrines to yourself.

MostHigh:

Drummaboy is a chief heretic no joke at all.

You think the sons of God play politics like the gentile dogs

You talking of "cop out" and side deals you gentile.

Child of the little horn.

Even after the elders have passed judgement with paul inclusive you are still saying narcisstic things like

"In fact I believe that the meeeting in Jerusalem should have ended with the [b]no law concept that Paul in his epistles taught[/b]"

Who cares what a gentile like you believes, what is important is what IS

YOU ARE CLAIMING WHAT PAUL TAUGHT BUT NOT DOING WHAT PAUL DID

HYPOCRYTE.

Child of the little horn

Lawless son of a lawless father

And nothing you say can change that

JesusisLord85:

lol. Can you imagine. So the evidence I use, he now says the APOSTLES of God were "copping out".
The Gentiles won't kill me.

JesusisLord85:

lol. Can you imagine. So the evidence I use, he now says the APOSTLES of God were "copping out".
The Gentiles won't kill me.

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them

James 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: 9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. 10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

DrummaBoy: Ephesians 2:14-16 : For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the diving wall of hostility, by ABOLISHING IN HIS FLESH THE LAW WITH ITS COMMANDMENTS AND REGULATIONS. His purpose was to create in himself, one new man out of the two, thus making peace, and in this one body, to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility.

Why Did Jesus Die: 1. To make gentiles and Jews one before God. To bring an end to hostilities btw them.

What is the Cause of these Hostilities: 2. The law, with its commandment and regulations, ie, Torah, oral laws, and ordinances.

What happened to these laws: 3. They were abolished in his flesh via the cross.

And what Happened Next: 4. The two, gentiles and Jews, are now reconciled to God.

That is the reason Jesus died. That is the gospel. IF ANYONE TEACHES ANYTHING TO THE CONTRARY MAY HE BE FOREVER CURSED.

I will supply d answers to my questions when power is restored here.

JesusisLord85:

Haha I will need to rank you 'crazies' on here. He sends me 1000 questions and demands answers immediately.
Lis of lawless:

1.Shdemidemi aka headboy of lawlessness:
Imagines 2 gospels. One for him first, and the other to the Jews. He can entire via the wide gate, and Jews enter via someother gate. Also believes Christ (a Judean) came to do away with the religion of the Judeans. Strange, but true

2. Goshen
Zealous for lawlessness. Walks hand in hand with shdemidemi, though he believes in only one gospel

3. Drumboy
Asks lots of questions. Ignores key scripture that counters his vain view. Zealous and ignorant, dangerous mix. Least knowledgable of the 'lawless', yet rising fast through their ranks.

JesusisLord85:

Ok lets look at Acts 15 because I keep getting questions on this, and some of your questions are on this:

Acts 15:19-22 "Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day. Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren."


A carnal mind will read this and conclude that it proves that there are only four rules for Gentiles coming into the faith, to obey. Clearly, the whole Torah was not forced on the Gentiles all at once. The did not mention steal, kill, adultery, so obviously, there is more to this. Did God force the whole Torah on the Israelites at once? Was it not over a period of time? Here, they are trying to say that the Gentiles would learn the Torah over time, hearing it each week in the synagogues.

Acts 15:21 "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day."


Why do you people ignore this key verse in the passage? I bet when many read it they gloss over it, thinking, what has Torah being taught each week in synagogues have to do with Gentiles. And, importantly, why is it mentioned alongside four of the many laws? As I keep repeating on this forum, it is because they would learn it as the began to fellowship in the synagogue alongside their Jewish brethren. Only after pointing out the Gentiles would learn Torah weekly "did it please the apostles and elders" (verse 22) to send this letter out.

Acts 15:5-11 "But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

Before jumping to gentile conclusions, lets approach this passage like I approached Galatians for you.
1. Who demanded conversion by circumcision and observing the law of Moses?
2. How did this group define the ‘law’
3. What was the response of the apostles to this particular group of gentlemen, and why
4. What do OTHER passages in scripture teach us about observing the law for gentiles and the Israelites

Please be patient and follow

God is unchanging. Even Jesus said heaven and earth will pass away before one stroke from the Torah/Law (Yahweh’s instructions) be removed.
Matthew 5:17-18
“17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. “

I just quoted Jesus oh! Even if you {falsely} interpret Paul to teach a contrary message, then you ought to reject it because Jesus is Lord. But as many know, Paul has been widely misunderstood.

We also know that Jesus considered the "traditions of the elders" not equal to written Torah. Often times the oral tradition violated the written Torah (Mark 7:9).
Matthew 15:2-3
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

This verse gives real insight into the people that the apostles are confronting. Would they even be having this debate if the concern was the written Torah, the word of God? Of course not.

Like Christ, the apostles upheld written Torah but rebuked those advocates of legalism, i.e. oral law. Basically, members of Pharisaic Judaism.
So, to answer the first question, it is the Pharisees who are making the demands mentioned in Acts 15:5. The passage is dealing with whether the Gentiles needed to convert according to Pharisaic traditions, i.e. become proselytes to Pharisaic Judaism. How can they be talking about messianic Judaism, Jesus just spent his time teaching the Jews the scriptures, and now you’re saying they do away with all that? That is absurd.

We already know by checking other scriptures that Gentiles could be saved without going through the rituals of becoming a proselyte - the belief of Cornelius and his family confirms this (Acts 10).
To us, some 2000 years later circumcision is just one law out of the 613 laws in Torah. However, from the 1st century Pharisaic perspective, circumcision was the means by which one became a proselyte. (Notice I am not even talking about conversion to Christianity here. Jesus didn't even know what a Christian was. Chei.) That is why this ritual is being singled out as a demand apart from its inclusion in the Torah. Generally obeying the law is not the issue, this passage is bothered with how the Gentiles convert, and the requirements thereof.
Notice they didn’t complain that the Gentiles don’t keep kosher and the law, or the Sabbath and the law. The law already includes these things. It is singled out because it is what they consider to be the rites of passage to becoming a proselyte to Pharisaic Judaism.

It might sound absurd that circumcision had become a conversion ritual by the Pharisees, but today, baptism is sometimes misused as a means of joining a particular church. For example me refusing to be baptised in the Mormon church is my rejection of Mormonism, and NOT baptism per se!

The apostles rejected the Pharisaic demand that the Gentiles should undergo the Pharisaic circumcision ritual, AND NOT circumcision itself, that was not the debate. Why do you people imagine a vain thing?

At that time, the gospel was being received by Gentiles without them having to go through the conversion ritual of the Pharisees. God accepted the Gentiles as they were, hence he "made no distinction between us and them" (Acts 15:9).

"Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?"

Side note: can Mr two-gospel shdemidemi explain how this Jew was preaching a gospel to the Gentiles that God had lead him to do? According to you, only Paul knew the full truth and that truth was given to the gentiles. lol


Peter argued against the Pharisees, warning not to put a yoke on the new believers, a yoke neither they nor their fathers could bear; this yoke is the Pharisaic oral tradition. How can Peter be teaching that the commandments of God is bondage? That would be blasphemy!. Jesus said:

"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers."

Now doesn’t that sound more like the yoke Peter is alluding to? The yoke many of you have blasphemously claimed is the very word of God?

See what Jesus also says to the Pharisees:
Mattew 23:15
"Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves."

So we can see that the oral tradition of the Pharisees is a burden, NOT the commandments of the Most High God. God’s way is freedom, contrary to what many of you teach here:

"The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach freedom to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord." Luke 4:18,19
This echos Isaiah 61:1 (please check, I'm trying to keep this tight, it is late)

Liberty is defined in Psalms 119:44-45
"So shall I keep thy law continually for ever and ever. And I will walk at liberty: for I seek thy precepts."

Leviticus 26:13
"I am the LORD your God, which brought you forth out of the land of Egypt, that ye should not be their bondmen; and I have broken the bands of your yoke, and made you go upright."

How can you say God brought them out of bondage, and gave them the instructions (his word, his Torah), which you also define as bondage? The traditions of man is the bondage.

Ok so let’s look at the demand by the Pharisees that the Gentiles keep the Law of Moses. To the Pharisees, the Law of Moses means both the written word (Torah) and the oral Torah (their traditions) – remember their dialogue with Jesus in Matthew 15:2-3. These people considered them equal. So when they say the Gentiles should keep the Law of Moses, they are not making any distinction between their traditions and the written Torah. Simple enough.

Let’s not forget that the Gentile’s were given four ‘starter laws’, and were to learn the rest of the law each week in the synagogues. And we know that these laws come from the Torah. Obviously, the apostles were not making up a new set of laws.
"But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood."

I will go into detail why these are specifically mentioned as things the gentiles must adhere to immediately. That will come tomorrow. Early start tomorrow.

Shalom

JMAN05:

LET ME ASSUME U NEVER SAW THESE POINTS OF MINE ABOVE. pls attend to them one by one as I attend to urs. Thats how good discussions are done. If u didnt do so, I will assume u cant prove ur point beyond reasonable doubt.

You cant just ignore them.

<<Why would you need to command
someone to worship in a synagogue
when the religion remains Judaism.
Christ is the fulfilment of prophecy in
the Torah.>>
1. how will u prove that the religion
remained judaism when the apostles
condemned their insistent on the law.
did judaisers then preach Jesus or
moses?
2. he fulfils the law and he is the end
of the law. not so?
" For Christ is the end of the Law,
so that everyone exercising faith may
have righteousness. " rom. 10:4
<< Nothing there about a new religion.
THere are countless examples of the
believers attending synagogue so I
won't waste my time fishing those
out.>
1. attending synagogue to do what?
was it the new gentile converts or Paul
and companions who went to preach
to those there abt Jesus since they
wont accept him? it may be better to
quote them lets look at it.

Tgirl4real: Waiting for the concluding part...

BTW, can drummaboy n Jesusislord tell us what the torah is? I believe that this info will help us to be on the same page.

JesusisLord85: Ok, so let me finish off what I was saying. In Acts 15, Peter gives some 'starter' laws for the gentiles coming into the faith, to obey.

Acts 15:19-21
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day

Abstain From Pullution Of Idols And From Fornication

"But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication." Revelation 2:14

"Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols." Revelation 2:20

So we can see fornication and pollution of idols is tied together.
This is where I left off yesterday, so let's start with "pollution from idols"


Pollution is from the Greek alisgema. See strongs #234. This word is often connected with with idolatry and meats from sacrifices offered to idols.
Why would believers in Yahshua be warned about this, and urged to drop this immediately?
Paul says:
1 Corinthians 8:4. "So, then, as to the question of taking food offered to images, we are certain that an image is nothing in the world, and that there is no God but one."

Paul is saying that this order is not given because an idol has any power – he says they are “nothing”
It is because when we eat these meats, we witness to others that the idol have some meaning, empowering it. Converts don't have to ask if meat they are being presented with has been offered to an idol. By doing so, this would suggest that the idol indeed does possess power. But we know they are nothing. Paul was saying that unless someone else speaks up and condemns the meat being presented, the believers can eat the meat with a clear conscience, knowing that all things come from God.
"For this reason, if food is a cause of trouble to my brother, I will give up taking meat for ever, so that I may not be a cause of trouble to my brother."
This does not include unclean meats of course, as God already told the people what was food and what was not...even Noah knew.

Fornication


Fornication is from the Greek word porneia (see Strongs #4202)
Definitions: fornication, whoredom; met: idolatry.
Given that this is mentioned alongside pollution of idols, Paul must be talking about the indulging in pagan rituals aka idolatry. This is nothing new. Even the Israelites found it difficult to shake off their idol worshipping. Just read the books of the Kings of Israel and Judah. The gentiles were obviously struggling with the same thing.
This is what Paul meant in Galatians 4:9-11
"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain."
How can Paul be talking about the religion of the Jews here? These people never knew God. He is talking to those coming into the faith. He is talking about turning to their former pagan rituals which were bondage. Or you think only Jews had sabbaths and special days? Interestingly this 'mixing of idols with God's Truth' is still a problem today. Many modern church 'holidays' have pagan routes - Saturnalia/Christmas; Goddess Eastros/Easter; Sun-god/Sunday worship, etc.
How can I be in bondage for observing the Lord's Passover, and yet you are the free man, observing pagan holidays like Easter? Hilarious.

Things Strangled, And From Blood

When you strangle an animal, the blood is not drained. The Jews have Kosher, the Muslims have halal.

Deuteronomy 15:23 "Only thou shalt not eat the blood thereof; thou shalt pour it upon the ground as water."
Leviticus 17:10 "And whatsoever man there be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, that eateth any manner of blood; I will even set my face against that soul that eateth blood, and will cut him off from among his people.

I hope you notice that these laws {that you say were given to Israelites only} includes Gentiles (strangers) that lived among them.
Does your church observe these 4 things that mentioned? Here in the UK, I have been to fellowship meals were they serve ham, or even rare steak. I wonder what the justification is for that

Notice these ‘starter laws’ that Peter mentioned don't forbid murder, theft, adultery, lying, etc... That is further proof these four rules were never intended to replace the Torah. I shouldn’t need to prove this, it is common sense. But the lawless will stop at nothing. Basically, Peter gave these 4 particular orders because he was addressing offensive practices the new believers needed to leave behind before they could come into fellowship alongside their Jewish brethren. But, importantly, after adhering to these, they were acceptable in God’s eyes, and they would learn the rest of the law each Sabbath as it is read in the synagogues.

Shalom

JMAN05:



my brother, like i said before, address my responds one after the other. with that step, our discussions will be meaningful.

if u had done that way, u wouldnt have ran into the problem of responding out of point, just like you did above.

You are quoting the words of Jesus to support that Jesus was not against the law and my "note" above addresses that point that Jesus was not against the law. the law ended AFTER his death. didnt I say so?

my brother, "telos" primary mean "end". the other one is "goal to end" not JUST goal. (exrgetic dictionary of the NT). from the context of that romans, end is the logical word to pick. can you say "I am... the beginning and the 'goal to end (or goal) (telos)'"? rev. 21:6. the context shows that end is the logical word. Strongs 5056: "(to set out for a definite point or goal); properly, the point aimed at as a limit ie (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state...".

basically when something reaches its goal it ends. that is the sense telos convey. so the law points to Christ and ends after his death cos it has fulfilled its purpose. like i said above.

please please and please, attend to my points one after the other just like i did above as this makes for a logical discussion. if not one could omit points
made by the other person.

I have replies to all ur submission, but please follow that format in replying to my comments, so that we will apply reason when making any piece of statement and direct to the issue presented by the other person.

please do.

Bidam: The proper english phrase you should use is End Goal not goal to end.

Romans 10:4 ...'For Christ is the "END GOAL" of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.'

Paul wasn't meaning that Christ brought a literal end to the law of God. He meant that Christ IS THE END OBJECTIVE of the law.

Goshen360:

Good! If Christ is the END GOAL and\or THE END OBJECTIVES of the law, what does that mean? This is the best shot of scriptures you will ever have here. Doesn't it mean the law has an END OBJECTIVES and that end objective is CHRIST. Doesn't it mean, the law's end objectives is to end up in CHRIST - pointing to Christ? Doesn't it mean when one comes to CHRIST, the end objectives of the law is completed and is no longer needed? Doesn't it mean the law was to be a guardian UNTIL Christ should come? Doesn't it mean that as many as are in Christ, the law have been completed\ended its objectives? Doesn't it mean that when that END GOAL or OBJECTIVES are reached or fulfilled, such law is terminated, null and void? Now that the END OBJECTIVES or END GOAL of the law has been reached in CHRIST, what do you still need that law for? To retain you in Christ?

You're going from Lagos to Ibadan and your end objective is to get to Ibadan. You called a taxi and he drove you to Ibadan. Now your END OBJECTIVES is reached (to get to Ibadan); please tell us, do you still need the service of a taxi-man? You left Nigeria for the UK and now you living in UK, what law and\or constitution do you obey? UK or Nigeria? Christians lived UNDER a better covenant, NOT under the law because they now have the indwelling of the Spirit, replacement of the guardians of the law, Galatians 5:18; you're just simply not getting this simple truth. A GREAT CHANGE HAD HAPPENED SINCE THE TIME OF THE OUTPOURING OF THE SPIRIT - THE HOLY SPIRIT HAD REPLACED THE ROLE OF THE LAW GUIDING FOLKS UNDER THE LAW AND WHEN A BELIEVER IS LED BY THE SPIRIT OF GOD, SUCH ARE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF GOD AND ARE NOT SUBJECT TO THE LAW OF MOSES NOR ARE THEY UNDER THE LAW.

Amplified Bible (AMP)
18 But if you are guided (led) by the [Holy] Spirit, you are not subject to the Law.

New Living Translation
But when you are directed by the Spirit, you are not under obligation to the law of Moses.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
But if you are led by The Spirit, you are not under The Written Law.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
If your spiritual nature is your guide, you are not subject to Moses' laws.

Galatians 5:18

YOU CAN'T BE LED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT AND AT THE SAME TIME BE LED BY THE LAW. That's what Galatians 5:18 is saying. Read it again and understand. Led by the Holy Spirit = NOT under the law, not subject to the law. Flip the coin and see the other side: Being under the law or subject to the law = NOT led by the Spirit.

In other words, the law was our ·guardian [child-minder; tutor; an attendant slave who watched over a child in a wealthy Greco-Roman household] ·leading us to [or until] Christ so that we could be ·made right with God [declared righteous; justified] through faith. 25 Now ·the way of faith [L faith] has come, and we no longer live under a ·guardian [child-minder; tutor; v. 24]. Expanded Bible (EXB); Galatians 3:24-25

Amplified Bible (AMP)
24 So that the Law served [to us Jews] as our trainer [our guardian, our guide to Christ, to lead us] until Christ [came], that we might be justified (declared righteous, put in right standing with God) by and through faith. 25 But now that the faith has come, we are no longer under a trainer (the guardian of our childhood).



New Living Translation
For Christ has already accomplished the purpose for which the law was given. As a result, all who believe in him are made right with God.

Amplified Bible (AMP)
4 For Christ is the end of the Law [the limit at which it ceases to be, for the Law leads up to Him Who is the fulfillment of its types, and in Him the purpose which it was designed to accomplish is fulfilled. That is, the purpose of the Law is fulfilled in Him] as the means of righteousness (right relationship to God) for everyone who trusts in and adheres to and relies on Him.

Romans 10:4

JesusisLord85:

I took this off wikipedia so no one can say I am biased:

Torah (/ˈtɔːrə/; Hebrew: תּוֹרָה, "Instruction", "Teaching" is a central concept in the Jewish tradition. It has a range of meanings: it can most specifically mean the first five books of the Tanakh, it can mean this plus the rabbinic commentaries on it, it can mean the continued narrative from Genesis to the end of the Tanakh, it can even mean the totality of Jewish teaching and practice.[1] Common to all these meanings, Torah consists of the foundational narrative of the Jewish people: their call into being by God, their trials and tribulations, and their covenant with their God, which involves following a way of life embodied in a set of religious obligations and civil laws (halakha).

TO me, it is the word of God. The first five books of the old testament. As I posted, the pharisees so no distinction between their traditions (traditions of man) and the written torah.
Even Paul used to be zealous for traditions of man before he was converted, to the true faith:

Galatians 1:13-14 " For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews’ religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it: 14 and profited in the Jews’ religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers."

And of course, there is the Pharisees talking to Jesus:

Matthew 15:2-4 "Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread. 3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?"

When we talk of bondage, it is Pharisaic Judaism that are referring to, not the word of God, that would be blasphemy
These Pharisees had a list of laws, e.g. they decided how far one could walk on a Sabbath day.